Usage of "proletariat" and "bourgeois"

[Skyhilist]

So, "proletariat" and "bourgeois" are terms that were conceived awhile ago as I'm sure you know.

On this boards, however, I have noticed something interesting. The use of the word "proletariat" seems to be declining (or less than what it was historically at least within revolutionary circles). People tend to say "working class" instead now. Yet the term "bourgeois" doesn't seem to be declining at all or being replaced by anything else on here despite it's parallel historical usage to the term "proletariat".

I've noticed this even in myself in the way that I use these terms.

What do you think is responsible for these trends?

[Aleister Granger]

So, "proletariat" and "bourgeois" are terms that were conceived awhile ago as I'm sure you know.

On this boards, however, I have noticed something interesting. The use of the word "proletariat" seems to be declining (or less than what it was historically at least within revolutionary circles). People tend to say "working class" instead now. Yet the term "bourgeois" doesn't seem to be declining at all or being replaced by anything else on here despite it's parallel historical usage to the term "proletariat".

I've noticed this even in myself in the way that I use these terms.

What do you think is responsible for these trends?

Simple
Working class= 3 syllables.
Proletariat= 5 syllables.
It's an ass to write and an ass to say.

In seriousness, I'm more confused as to why bourgeoisie hasn't been phased out itself. Bourgeoisie= those who own the means of production, but I've seen it being tossed around more freecaringly to those who simply are rich, whether they actually be bourgeoisie or athletes or musicians or artists or lotto-fuckers...

It should just be poor vs. rich already. That's what it's going to devolve into. You can't convince me that, when the proletarian revolution begins, all the rock stars and rap stars with millions are going to point at their microphones, put on ragged Jedi robes, and say "these aren't the means of production you're looking for" and we just ignore them.

I think it's better that the terms be phased out.

[Alan OldStudent]

Language changes and evolves. What's important are the concepts, not the particular suit and hat the concepts wear when they attend the wedding.

Regards,

Alan OldStudent
The unexamined life is not worth living--Socrates

[Popular Front of Judea]

'Working class' sounds more populist I guess. Of course it is also confusing. Everyone that is 'working class' is proletarian -- but everyone that is proletarian is not necessarily working class. If you are selling your labor -- physical or mental -- you are a proletarian. We have plenty of programmers here that work for Amazon, Microsoft etc that are emphatically proletarians.

You do not necessarily stop being proletarian by acquiring a 4 year degree. ( You are a more indebted one however ...)

[Alan OldStudent]

'Working class' sounds more populist I guess. Of course it is also confusing. Everyone that is 'working class' is proletarian -- but everyone that is proletarian is not necessarily working class. If you are selling your labor -- physical or mental -- you are a proletarian. We have plenty of programmers here that work for Amazon, Microsoft etc that are emphatically proletarians.

You do not necessarily stop being proletarian by acquiring a 4 year degree. ( You are a more indebted one however ...)
In talking about socialism with people who are not socialists, I tend to use the term "wage earner." I then sometimes explain that blue collar workers, as well as programmers who sell their labor power to an employer are actually "working class." I follow that up by pointing out that here in my country (United States) we talk a lot about democracy, but when we go to work for 8 hours or more, we are existing in a dictatorship, and the best we can hope for is a decent-enough supervisor or boss.

Regards,

Alan OldStudent
The unexamined life is not worth living--Socrates

[Zukunftsmusik]

I would suppose proletarians include non-workers, such as homeless people, refugees etc

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I feel like I sometimes distinguish "proletarian" as in the working class constituting a class "for itself" and "working class" more generally. Like, there have always been working classes, and there were wage earners before they were a class "of itself". Of course, this usage isn't necessarily "cannon" so . . . y'know, confusion.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

i use various different terms myself because i like to have some variation in what I'm saying, I suppose.

[Sea]

Once someone learns how to spell 'bourgeoisie' without using spell check, they tend to become rather smug about it.

[LewisQ]

"Bourgeois" has more currency (no pun intended) because it has come to imply "sharing the morals or manner of the bourgeois class", rather than the class itself.

[A.J.]

So, "proletariat" and "bourgeois" are terms that were conceived awhile ago as I'm sure you know.

On this boards, however, I have noticed something interesting. The use of the word "proletariat" seems to be declining (or less than what it was historically at least within revolutionary circles). People tend to say "working class" instead now. Yet the term "bourgeois" doesn't seem to be declining at all or being replaced by anything else on here despite it's parallel historical usage to the term "proletariat".

I've noticed this even in myself in the way that I use these terms.

What do you think is responsible for these trends?

'Proletariat' and 'working class' aren't, strictly speaking, synonyms. The former having a deeper theoretical meaning

That the term proletariat rarely gets used nowadays(is this primarily a phenomenon in the English-speaking world?) smacks of opportunism to me. Pandering to the philistine prejudices of backward strata.

Was it not posited by Lenin in 'What is to be Done?', whilst writing on the subject of the role of the revolutionary newspaper, that propaganda should principally be directed at the most politically advanced workers?

[TruProl]

The Proletariat is not the Working Class and Marx clearly stated this. The Proletariat is derived from all sectors of society and is made up of those sell their labour for a wage.

There really are only two classes according to Marx and what I personally agree with, with one sub-class (petty bourgeois) and that's it in purely Marxist terms.

[Zanthorus]

The Proletariat is not the Working Class and Marx clearly stated this.

Where? The only text by either Marx or Engels that I can recall which distinguishes between 'proletarian' and 'working class' is Engels' Principles of Communism, in which 'working class' is used as a general synonym for labouring classes throughout history, and proletarian as the term for 19th century wage workers. But the point Engels is making here is contrary to what you're saying ("The proletariat, or the class of proletarians, is, in a word, the working class of the 19th century").

I don't think that on the basis of Marx's writing any substantial difference can be drawn between the proletariat and the working class as theoretical categories. On the whole Marx uses 'workers', 'the working masses', 'the working classes' as synonyms for proletarians. This attempt to draw a distinction seems to be based more on an attempt to cosy up to consumption based views of class.

[TruProl]

Where? The only text by either Marx or Engels that I can recall which distinguishes between 'proletarian' and 'working class' is Engels' Principles of Communism, in which 'working class' is used as a general synonym for labouring classes throughout history, and proletarian as the term for 19th century wage workers. But the point Engels is making here is contrary to what you're saying ("The proletariat, or the class of proletarians, is, in a word, the working class of the 19th century").

I don't think that on the basis of Marx's writing any substantial difference can be drawn between the proletariat and the working class as theoretical categories. On the whole Marx uses 'workers', 'the working masses', 'the working classes' as synonyms for proletarians. This attempt to draw a distinction seems to be based more on an attempt to cosy up to consumption based views of class.

So Marx and Engels in the manifesto were trying to cosy up to consumption in The Communist Manifesto? They clearly state that, "Thus the proletariat is recruited from all classes of the population" so I am right. What I was saying is that a Working Class person is a member of the Proletariat but to use it as the definition of the Proletariat is wrong which the OP refers to.

[Zanthorus]

So Marx and Engels in the manifesto were trying to cosy up to consumption in The Communist Manifesto? They clearly state that, "Thus the proletariat is recruited from all classes of the population" so I am right.

Read the sentence prior to the one you have quoted. It talks about the "lower strata of the middle class" being driven to the position of proletarians by competition from big capital. It doesn't mean that the proletariat is comprised of members of multiple classes, it means that individuals who were previously members of other classes are forced into the ranks of the proletariat.


What I was saying is that a Working Class person is a member of the Proletariat but to use it as the definition of the Proletariat is wrong which the OP refers to.

Yeah and I'm saying you're wrong. the proletariat is the class which survives from the sale of it's labour-power, it is in the most literal sense possible a 'working class'.