Feminism

[monkeydust]

Recently, there's been a lot of varieties of the capitalist v communism arguemnt lurking around here, so I'd like to try and have a discussion that is largely seperate from our economic perspectives.


I'm pretty sure that most people here would believe in equal rights and opportunities between the sexes, but how should this be achieved?

At the moment, many countries have laws to ensure that in the same job, a man and woman will get the same pay, this isn't a bad thing but does it really go far enough. Sure a woman can have the same pay as a man in the same job, but can she as easily achieve the higher paid jobs that men seem to occupy. Im talking about jobs in government, business, law etc. These highly paid jobs clearly are taken by many women, but the amount of men in these jobs is vastly disproportianate to the actual population.

Yes women have formal equality, but do they really have substansive equality. Should jobs more often occupied by women, such as teaching be paid as much as traditionally male occupations, should they be valued the same by society?

Furthermore, should women and men be given different rights to accomodate their physical and historical differences?

Is part of the problem that women are not represented enough in our democracies? Should their be quotas to ensure their representation?

Or should women be discouraged from pursuing careers altogether, in favour simply raising children? If this is the case how much social benefit for example should a single parent mother be given if any at all?

[RedAnarchist]

Yes.

Women must realize that they are just as capable and are just as equal as men. They are not there just to cook, clean and give sexual pleasure. They are workers, they are important members of the proletariat.

Just yesterday on my way to college some neaderthals whistled at a fellow student who happened to be female. I felt ashamed that this is how some men treat women. Men like that are a disgrace to other men.

Equality between men and women is paramount.

[monkeydust]

I agree with you but do you feel this equality should mean women are given the same rights as men or whether they should be given slightly different rights due to their differences?

How do you think that women should achieve substansive equality rather than jus formal equality?

[RedAnarchist]

They should be given the same rights as men and when it comes to certain things that affect only women then they should gain extra rights for those things, as should men for things that only affect men

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 12:38 PM
do you feel this equality should mean women are given the same rights as men.


i do but today it feels like to me that its equal and there trying to go futher.

[Y2A]

Of course women deserve equal rights but the thing is that the modern day feminist movement isn't about equal rights.

[RedAnarchist]

Yes. As a Marxist i disagree with feminism. It is going too far nowadays.

Feminism just wants women to do to men what men have done to women for thousands of years. Most women are, thankfully, too intelligent and open-minded to let feminazis brainwash them

edit some years later - WTF?!:huh:

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 01:14 PM
Of course women deserve equal rights but the thing is that the modern day feminist movement isn't about equal rights.
what is it about then.

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 01:17 PM
Yes. As a Marxist i disagree with feminism. It is going too far nowadays.

Feminism just wants women to do to men what men have done to women for thousands of years. Most women are, thankfully, too intelligent and open-minded to let feminazis brainwash them
agreed.

[RedAnarchist]

They want to make women superior to men basically. Most people dont take any real notice of these female sexists

[Monty Cantsin]

yes one of my teachers is one of them, i rip her of alot. but shes very bias between the boys and the girls.

[Y2A]

Feminism has degraded from wanting the right to vote and wanting the right to be able to voice an opinion to a bunch of ugly lesbian women condemning men for there own flaws.

[RedAnarchist]

That is homophobic and pathetic, Y2A. They are not all lesbian. You are obviously a great beliver in stereotypes arent you?

[Y2A]

No, I'm just not contained in this prison of political correctness that you are in.

[RedAnarchist]

PC? you said lesbian. If you were not PC you would have said some illitirate and degrading word like "homo" or "lesbo".

Try growing up and losing the stereotyping, kid. It might do you some good

[Y2A]

Feminism and lesbianism are closely related. Of course many feminsist aren't lesbians.

Maybe you should try not taking little statements like mine and making such a big fuss over some as insignificant as that.

[RedAnarchist]

Ibet you yearn for the days of the 1950's, when anyone who dared to not conform would have been seen as insane and anyone with skin that happened to be too dark were seen as lesser.

Lesbains are normal, everyday women. They are humans.

Gay men are also normal, as are everyone else who doesnt fit exactly into the mould of conformity.

Equality amongst the genders is needed, or else noone can be truly equal

[Y2A]

First off you fool, I am not white.

Second off, I am not homophobic.

Don't take statements like that so seriously. It is a fact that the feminist movement was started and mainly aided by many feminist. And it's great that they did so because now they have the ability to vote and participate in politics. Only fools like you take such a statement and make such a huge deal over it.

[monkeydust]

This is all part of my original point, someone said that women are trying to do what men have previously done to women, this is true to an extent because much of the ground gained by women has not been in making themselves equal to men but rather trying to take the traditional role of men instead.

What I am suggesting is that the traditional role of a woman should be valued by society as much as that of a man, why should male orientated jobs be better paid than ones that females tend to be better suited to?

Perhaps women shouldn't focus to become the same as men, but rather to be different yet their role valued equally, this I feel will be very difficult to achieve.

[RedAnarchist]

Women should be paid the same as men. Women are just as capable as men.

Its time we stopped the boundaries that stop people chucking away gender and becoming human, which is what we all are. I'm a man, but it does not make me better than a woman. It makes me equal to her.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 02:21 PM
Women should be paid the same as men. Women are just as capable as men.

Its time we stopped the boundaries that stop people chucking away gender and becoming human, which is what we all are. I'm a man, but it does not make me better than a woman. It makes me equal to her.
It's time you realized that the majority of women are less capable of doing manual labor at the same capacity as men, but those who do should obviously be paid more.

[RedAnarchist]

Some changes that need to come -

1. Homosexuals should be allowed to marry, as should transexuals

2. Equal pay for men and women

3. More severe penalties for individuals and companies who discriminate

4. End of asking questions about race, gender and sexuality on census forms, job applications etc etc

5. Homosexuals should be allowed to adopt

[monkeydust]

I agree with most of those points Xphile, however thats not really what I was getting at.

Women already in many countries have equal pay with men in the same jobs, but women often aren't able to get the same higer paid jobs as men, company executives, mangers and what have you.

So A): should there be quotas or some formal manner of preventing employment discrimination?

or B):should the jobs women do commonly do be valued equaly and as a consequence be paid as well as the jobs that men already have?

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 02:25 PM
Some changes that need to come -

1. Homosexuals should be allowed to marry, as should transexuals

2. Equal pay for men and women

3. More severe penalties for individuals and companies who discriminate

4. End of asking questions about race, gender and sexuality on census forms, job applications etc etc

5. Homosexuals should be allowed to adopt
"1. Homosexuals should be allowed to marry, as should transexuals"

Agreed but I believe we should maintain seperation of church and state so the state does not enforce any laws on the church forcing them to allow it and in return the christan right has no right to enforce there beliefs on the state.

"2. Equal pay for men and women"

Disagree.

"3. More severe penalties for individuals and companies who discriminate"

Even though I do despise those who do so that is a problem that comes with private ownership and thus I am not for more severe punishments, as a matter of fact I am against quotas and AA altogether.

"4. End of asking questions about race, gender and sexuality on census forms, job applications etc etc"

Agreed.


"5. Homosexuals should be allowed to adopt"

So true, so many kids have no parents what so ever but a few a-holes want to keep it that way in the name of "morality", that's BS.

[RedAnarchist]

I would think B would be more feasible, Left

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 01:43 PM
Feminism has degraded from wanting the right to vote and wanting the right to be able to voice an opinion to a bunch of ugly lesbian women condemning men for there own flaws.
HAHAHA, I already said this, feminist are : fat, ugly lesbians that hate men, hate models, hate pretty women, women that appear on playboy and pornstars.

I challenge anyone, anyone, who will find a feminist that is not: fat or ugly or a lesbian, that does not hate models or pornstars or playmates. they all fit into at least 2 or 3 of the things I described.

And feminist are taking it too far. They already have the equality they wanted and deserved.
This is just like any movement that most minorities are making, minorities already have equal rights.
I hate the whole PC world we live in because of these assholes not having a sense of humor or calling anyone who says something about minorities a rascist.
by assholes I mean those pressure minority groups and some peole: jesse jackson and I forgot the name of some latins that do the same crap.

[Pete]

I know a girl who lives down the hall from me who is not fat, ugly, a lesbian, who does not hate models, pornstars and playmates except if they are useless dolts. She is also a feminist who wants true equality, not paper equality.

[Hampton]

Ashley Judd was on the cover of Ms. and she's easy on the eyes.

[canikickit]

Feminism is about equal rights for women and men. It's not about being fat or about hating men these are just stereotypes perpetrated to discredit the movement.

I say to Y2A, what does a woman's physical appearance have to do with her affiliation with feminism? That's nothing more than a sexist patronising remark.

El-profe, there are members of this board who consider themselves feminists. I know for a fact that one of them isn't fat, a lesbian, and she's definitely not ugly. Even if they are fat, ugly or attracted to their own gender...so fucking what? Do you actually think that has relevance?

Some feminists also support pornstars and so forth. These women can support themselves and can use men weakness to their own advantage.

People don't necessarily think in the simplistic fashion you exhibit, talking about irrational hatred.
Feminists don't hate models, but rather the damage they do to young girls self esteem and health through excessive dieting, etc.

[el_profe]

well then, there are exceptions. But for the most part they fit at least 2 or 3 of the descriptions I said.
canikickit, does it have relevance? sometimes.
If theyre ugly (like many feminist ive seen on tv) they(the ones i saw on tv) where complaining about models and pornstars and playboy, and not just any feminist but some are leaders or "important" figures of femnist groups.

I also saw an interviw or maybe it was on E, they had Jenna jameson (the most famous pornstar) and she was saying how she gets letter and complaints from feminist groups.

[RedCeltic]

"1. Homosexuals should be allowed to marry, as should transexuals"

Agreed but I believe we should maintain seperation of church and state so the state does not enforce any laws on the church forcing them to allow it and in return the christan right has no right to enforce there beliefs on the state.

I don’t see how there is a danger in that. Catholic churches still have the right to deny divocrce, or only marry catholics… dispite the fact that a justice of the peace can honor a divorce, or marrage of a catholic and non catholic.

If same sex couple for some strange reason want to be married in a Christian church, dispite the fact that the justice of the peace can marry them, Pagan high priestesses/priests will marry them, or other religions will honor their marrage if legal by the state… they can always still go to a Uniterian Universalist Church, which is a Christian faith (somewhat) that is in support of same sex marage.

I don’t see it as being a general problem. I do believe however, that if leagalized, many faiths will have internal struggles that may split them wide open such as what is occurring in the Episcipel church and the election of a gay bishop.


"2. Equal pay for men and women"

Disagree.

Please explain how this is a problem. How do you deserve more money because you have a penis? If women do the same work as men, the deserve the same pay.


"3. More severe penalties for individuals and companies who discriminate"

Even though I do despise those who do so that is a problem that comes with private ownership and thus I am not for more severe punishments, as a matter of fact I am against quotas and AA altogether. If private ownership = discrimination, than that is an argument against private ownership. You have just argued in favor of communism. ;)





"5. Homosexuals should be allowed to adopt"

So true, so many kids have no parents what so ever but a few a-holes want to keep it that way in the name of "morality", that's BS.

Agree 100% with that. No logical reason for it.

[Y2A]

:lol: cankickit put "fat ugly lesbian" on that small text below your avatar.

And as I said before, don't take a little statement like that, cry and make a huge fuss about it. What's the point? For the most part me and el profe are right and that ticks you off. Of course there are exceptions, that's besides the point.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 03:01 AM
:lol: cankickit put "fat ugly lesbian" on that small text below your avatar.

And as I said before, don't take a little statement like that, cry and make a huge fuss about it. What's the point? For the most part me and el profe are right and that ticks you off. Of course there are exceptions, that's besides the point.
hahahaha, that is funny. LOL, can you (whoever changed it) change it to fat ugly lesbian femenist?

Of course it makes them mad, stereotypes are alot of times right. I mean right in that they are correct.

[canikickit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 03:01 AM
:lol: cankickit put "fat ugly lesbian" on that small text below your avatar.
hahaha...no I didn't. Moderators can't do that. It is an excellent idea and I commend the person who did it.


And as I said before, don't take a little statement like that, cry and make a huge fuss about it. What's the point? Of course there are exceptions, that's besides the point.

The point in "making a fuss about it" is that I think it is a bad attitude to take. What's the point in anything? What's the point in posting on a message board? What are you talking about?


For the most part me and el profe are right and that ticks you off. Of course there are exceptions, that's besides the point.

Yes. And I'm "jealous" of your "freedoms" too. Right? And I'm fat and ugly. That's right, once you pigeon-hole me and try to make me look like some sort of fringe element of society everything's just peachy, right?

No, you're not right. People don't campaign and write literature and come up with plausible, rational reasons for equal rights because they're ugly, fat or hate good looking people. That's completely ludicrous and absurd and demonstrates the immaturity of your stance.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 08:12 PM
HAHAHA, I already said this, feminist are : fat, ugly lesbians that hate men, hate models, hate pretty women, women that appear on playboy and pornstars.

I challenge anyone, anyone, who will find a feminist that is not: fat or ugly or a lesbian, that does not hate models or pornstars or playmates. they all fit into at least 2 or 3 of the things I described.


I'm a feminist and a male.


I wonder how many feminist rallys you have been to in you life that you have been able to calculate such a judgement?

If you've ever actually been to one, you will find that out of 25 - 30 feminists, you will find maybe one that fits the discription you proposed.

You may talk about feminism being outdated, but until you can talk about feminism today without an obsure refrence to an experience Rush Limbaugh had in the 1960's, you are the one who is outdated.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 02:59 AM

"1. Homosexuals should be allowed to marry, as should transexuals"

Agreed but I believe we should maintain seperation of church and state so the state does not enforce any laws on the church forcing them to allow it and in return the christan right has no right to enforce there beliefs on the state.

I don’t see how there is a danger in that. Catholic churches still have the right to deny divocrce, or only marry catholics… dispite the fact that a justice of the peace can honor a divorce, or marrage of a catholic and non catholic.

If same sex couple for some strange reason want to be married in a Christian church, dispite the fact that the justice of the peace can marry them, Pagan high priestesses/priests will marry them, or other religions will honor their marrage if legal by the state… they can always still go to a Uniterian Universalist Church, which is a Christian faith (somewhat) that is in support of same sex marage.

I don’t see it as being a general problem. I do believe however, that if leagalized, many faiths will have internal struggles that may split them wide open such as what is occurring in the Episcipel church and the election of a gay bishop.


"2. Equal pay for men and women"

Disagree.

Please explain how this is a problem. How do you deserve more money because you have a penis? If women do the same work as men, the deserve the same pay.


"3. More severe penalties for individuals and companies who discriminate"

Even though I do despise those who do so that is a problem that comes with private ownership and thus I am not for more severe punishments, as a matter of fact I am against quotas and AA altogether. If private ownership = discrimination, than that is an argument against private ownership. You have just argued in favor of communism. ;)





"5. Homosexuals should be allowed to adopt"

So true, so many kids have no parents what so ever but a few a-holes want to keep it that way in the name of "morality", that's BS.

Agree 100% with that. No logical reason for it.
I don’t see how there is a danger in that. Catholic churches still have the right to deny divocrce, or only marry catholics… dispite the fact that a justice of the peace can honor a divorce, or marrage of a catholic and non catholic.

As I said, just as they have no right to enforce there theocracy on us, we have no right to enforce anything on them. If gays and lesbians want to get married, it is much better if they are solely allowed to do it by the state and not by way of the church.

I don’t see it as being a general problem. I do believe however, that if leagalized, many faiths will have internal struggles that may split them wide open such as what is occurring in the Episcipel church and the election of a gay bishop.

Good point, a better reason not to force them into it when they will divide themselves apart over the issue.

Please explain how this is a problem. How do you deserve more money because you have a penis? If women do the same work as men, the deserve the same pay.

I didn't say men deserve more, all I said is that it should not be equal. If a man produces more efficently then a women in whatever job he has he should be paid more then the women and the same goes vice versa. That's capitalism.

If private ownership = discrimination, than that is an argument against private ownership. You have just argued in favor of communism. ;)

I never said capitalism is "flawless" unlike many communists think there ideology is. The fact is that this is what true freedom is about. Think of it this way. I am the owner or the boss, I have the right to say who works for me and who doesn't, be it white, black, hispanic, etc....

BTW please don't try and turn this into some "I'm a racist white" thing, especially considering that I am not white.

Agree 100% with that. No logical reason for it.

True, atleast there are somethings we can agree on :)

*hugs communists

[The Children of the Revolution]

Feminism is about equal rights for women and men. It's not about being fat or about hating men these are just stereotypes perpetrated to discredit the movement.


In fairness, there ARE many looney feminists around. I have had to read articles by them; I know. Industrialisation was designed to enslave women apparently. And the factory chimney (famous in 19th century Britain) actually represents the male-reproductive-organ. And it is women's duty to overthrow men and to take power in the name of all that is right and good. These are not vicious stereotypes, there are actually misguided fools that believe this stuff.

I believe in equality of the sexes, and in equal pay for men and women - if they can do the same job. Speaking as an observer in capitalist society, (not as one myself) why should a contractor pay a female labourer the same as a male labourer if the male works twice as fast? There are jobs which "suit" each sex better, it makes no sense whatsoever to enforce complete equality. Why on earth do we want the same number of female builders as male builders? Ludicrous.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 09:01 PM
For the most part me and el profe are right and that ticks you off.
No, as I've shown you, for the most part you are dead wrong.

[Y2A]

TCotR seems to agree with us.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by RedCeltic+Jan 16 2004, 03:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RedCeltic @ Jan 16 2004, 03:11 AM)
[email protected] 15 2004, 08:12 PM
HAHAHA, I already said this, feminist are : fat, ugly lesbians that hate men, hate models, hate pretty women, women that appear on playboy and pornstars.

I challenge anyone, anyone, who will find a feminist that is not: fat or ugly or a lesbian, that does not hate models or pornstars or playmates. they all fit into at least 2 or 3 of the things I described.


I&#39;m a feminist and a male.


I wonder how many feminist rallys you have been to in you life that you have been able to calculate such a judgement?

If you&#39;ve ever actually been to one, you will find that out of 25 - 30 feminists, you will find maybe one that fits the discription you proposed.

You may talk about feminism being outdated, but until you can talk about feminism today without an obsure refrence to an experience Rush Limbaugh had in the 1960&#39;s, you are the one who is outdated. [/b]
Do you hate models, playmates or pornstars?

never been to a feminist rally, but have heard enough of them on tv, to know that I am right.

1 in 25? yeah right, like i said most fit at least 2 or 3 descriptions I said.

And what does rush limbaugh have to do with what I said?

Canikickit: its not childlsih, its right. Listen feminist want to portray the women as victims, we live in a world where now everyone wants to be the victim.

I heard some feminist where complaining about anna kournikova? :blink: :blink:

[Bradyman]

I do support many of the ideas of the feminist movement, but I also believe that they can sometimes take things too far.


There are jobs which "suit" each sex better, it makes no sense whatsoever to enforce complete equality. Why on earth do we want the same number of female builders as male builders? Ludicrous.

There&#39;s nothing that says that a woman can&#39;t work as fast or as well as a male. It&#39;s just been conditioned that they "can&#39;t."

How bout we get a woman to speak on this subject?

[Soul Rebel]

As im reading these silly ass, uninformed posts by most of you so-called leftists im fuming. I cant believe that you would dare call yourself a leftist while having such anti-feminist feelings, which you have all supported with biased, capitalist stereotypical views of feminism. It is pathetic.

Feminism, currently in its third wave, is not and has not been a movement to make womyn better than men or to have females take over the world (which probably scares most of you because you dont want to lose you unearned priviledges). What feminism is is this: a movement to break down the systems that hold down womyn, as well as other minorities. It is a movement that is fighting to get to society that men and womyn should be treated equally, but while respecting differences (such as the fact that womyn can get pregnant). It is a movement that is fighting to teach society that there are more differences AMONG womyn themselves, than there are among womyn and men. It is a movement that has directly fought capitalism because they have a concept of intersectionality, which is lacking in other movements.

What feminism is not- a bunch of unshaven, man-hating, lesbian *****es who hate pretty people. Feminism is not antichild. Feminism is not antiman. Feminism is not antifamily.

FEMINISM IS ABOUT PEOPLE. ALL PEOPLE&#33;

Feminism has fought to help both men and womyn by trying to break down the stereotypical views (that many of you still believe in) that are held by society. Both men and womyn have benefited from feminism, as much as many of you uninformed people try to deny it. Like the title of the great bell hooks book "Feminism is for Everybody."

What is also pissing me off most is not just your lack of knowledge about feminism, but by the way you mush all feminists together. There are many different types of feminists with different ideological points of view. There are Marxist Feminists, Liberal Feminists, Radical-Cultural Feminists, Radical-Libertarian Feminists, Eco-Feminists, and Global/Multicultural Feminists. All of these take a different stand point on the position of womyn, how we should go about changing these positions, what issues are important etc. There is no feminist bible. We have different beliefs on many different things and often cant agree on what to do.

Also, the fact that you call yourselves leftists without supporting the feminist movement is disgusting. As a leftist you should want the oppression of all people across all cultures to stop and this means supporting movements that are attempting to do this, such as the feminist movement. Feminism has continuously been attacking the capitalist system because there is a recognition that it is capitalism that has created and strives off of racism, homophobia, sexism, and classism. Feminists were also the ones that really started the socialist, communist, and anarchist movements around the world. Feminists were the most dedicated of members to these movements and it has been recognized extensively in the academic world as well as in historical manuscripts kept during these times. So to say that as a marxist you cannot support feminism is crap. Marxism is a type of feminism and vise-versa.

The fact that you also continuously repeat stereotypes created by the white, upper class and the capitalism system is proof enough that you are not leftists. As leftists you should be able to see through these images. You should be able to question why these views exist and answer them honestly. These images were created because those in power saw feminism as a threat to the capitalist system. They knew that feminists (men and womyn feminists) were questioning what was going on around them and mobilizing to fight this. They did not want the position of womyn or men to change because once these positions change the whole system shifts. This is why stereotypes were created. Not because they are based on any truth. Not all feminists are lesbians (such as myself) and not all lesbians are feminists (such as my friends). If you do believe in these stereotypes, than you are part of the problem. You are in no way helping any movement by continuously perpetuating these stereotypes.

Also, the whole thing with feminists hating pornstars, models, prostitutes, etc- bullshit&#33;
Feminists have been helping sex workers by trying to get sex workers to unionize, to get prostitution decriminalized, etc. Feminists are probably the number one supporters of sex workers. We sure do realize that it is degrading in certain aspects, but we also realize it would be a safer and better thing if it were decriminalized and if sex workers could control their own work and bodies.

So, before any of you start talking about shit you dont know about i suggest you dont. I suggest that you first get educated and then form an opinion. Dont come here using stereotypes to back up your opinions because you only add the problem existing in society. Repeating these stereotypes is showing that you tolerate homophobia, sexism, agism, and certainly racism.

Enjoy.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Supporting sex workers?&#33; Don&#39;t make me bump that prostitution thread&#33;

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 02:32 PM

So A): should there be quotas or some formal manner of preventing employment discrimination?

or B):should the jobs women do commonly do be valued equaly and as a consequence be paid as well as the jobs that men already have?
a) no the best person for the job should be employed.
b) the wage would be worked out in the use of labour eg time skill so on.

[BuyOurEverything]

SenoraChe: I was just about to PM you about this thread when I saw your post. I don&#39;t really have anything to add to what you said.


Supporting sex workers?&#33; Don&#39;t make me bump that prostitution thread&#33;

And why shouldn&#39;t we support sex workers? Are they not among the most oppressed workers anywhere? Or do they all &#39;deserve what they get&#39; because they&#39;re &#39;sluts?&#39;

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 04:09 AM
Supporting sex workers?&#33; Don&#39;t make me bump that prostitution thread&#33;
What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Sex workers are legit workers with skills who offer a valuable service. They deserve to have rights, they deserve good wages, they deserve to be safe, to be taken seriously, to be informed.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 04:09 AM
Supporting sex workers?&#33; Don&#39;t make me bump that prostitution thread&#33;
Yes, legalizing it and regulating it would be the best way to "support sex workers".

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 10:01 PM
I cant believe that you would dare call yourself a leftist while having such anti-feminist feelings,
I&#39;ve been trying to make that point on this board for years.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 09:18 PM
Do you hate models, playmates or pornstars?


I&#39;ve never met a model, playmate or pornstar, so how can I hate them Have you met one?


never been to a feminist rally, but have heard enough of them on tv, to know that I am right.

Because everything you see on TV is 100% Reality. :rolleyes:


1 in 25? yeah right, like i said most fit at least 2 or 3 descriptions I said.

Boy, and you must watch alot of TV to have figured that out. I didn&#39;t realize there were so many TV programs about feminism anyway....


And what does rush limbaugh have to do with what I said?


He&#39;s an idiot like you. He coined the phrase "Feminazi".

[el_profe]

Snorache:
How did capitalism create feminism? :o , are you gonna say capitalism created slaves also? no it dint.

So about about non-capitalist islamic nations that treat women like shit????

red celtic, you know what i meant with the model question. dont dodge around the question. You can hate somone or dislike them without ever meeting them.

Everything i se on tv is 100% ture? NO, but the feminist ive heard on radio and on tv, are the leaders of the movement. you know who martha burke is?


Stereotypes a lot of the times are actually true, why do you think they exist?

[RedCeltic]

Snorache:
How did capitalism create feminism? , are you gonna say capitalism created slaves also? no it dint.

I&#39;d rather answer this queston than the silly one you gave to me if you don&#39;t mind.. hehehe..... In my pont of view (and SenoraChe may say differently) but it&#39;s as Rosa Luxemborg had said, To the To the burgesses woman, her home is the whole world.. while to the Proletariat woman, the working class struggle is all that matters in the world.

Forgive me if I misquote, that&#39;s from memory. What it means is that for women that live a rich and fancy life, feminism, nor class struggle mean nothing. However, to those that these issues affect greatly, they must take them seriously and therefore realize that they are intrinsicly linked. Women who are in the most need of woman&#39;s rights in this world are also in the most need of worker&#39;s rights, and probobly also human rights as well.

They, wouldn&#39;t be found wearing three piece suits, in an office building. Those women have already found themselves equils among their own class.

[Soul Rebel]

I never said capitalism created feminism. I said that capitalism created stereotypes of feminism. Like i said before, these stereotypes were created as a defense mechanism. And theres no need for you to jump to conclusions on my thoughts on slavery. Read whats actually there before jumping to conclusions and making inaquerate observations about my feelings, just like you have done with feminism.

And not all islamic nations treat womyn like crap. Also, if they do, it has to with two main things-1) they do exist in a patriarchal society, which has always existed and 2) they are influenced by capitalism (they spend most of their time trying to fight capitalist influence, meaning that they try to keep womyn in a specific position because through capitalism they are given the impression that womyn are free and evil).

And i cant believe you would use the tv and radio to base your opinions on feminism. I would think you would be smart enough to know that these outlets are controlled by corporations meaning that whatever information is being given out is extremely biased and has a purpose (to keep the system intact). Why dont you try going to a lecture given by Gloria Steinem (which i have done) or contact angela davis (you can contact her through the university of california system) and ask them what feminism is, what its currently doing, etc.

And whats wrong with Martha Burke? Oh my goodness, she tried to fight a discriminatory rule which prohibited womyn from playing at a golf course, the same golf course that had prohibited African-Amercians from playing there. Oh my, the horror&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; For crying out loud, would you have this reaction if Black activists were to challenge this rule. No, you wouldnt, so why do it when a woman challenges it?

You have to look at this issue a little deeper than what you see: business meetings/deals take place between executives while playing golf. If womyn are excluded they are not being given the opportunity to take part in these meetings. Also, by excluding womyn you are once again holding strong to the notion that womyn should be in the private sphere, while men be in the public sphere.

There are many more issues than you even recognize.

Redceltic- i like how you answered that. I should have thought of answering it like that because its true. In a way capitalism did create feminism. It created feminism because there was a need among those oppressed womyn to improve their situation. This was mostly the need of working womyn (which RC has addressed) which were usually African-American and immigrant womyn. These two groups of womyn have always worked and have always been in need of proper rights. These womyn did not have a choice- they had to work in order to survive, whereas middleclass womyn did, they didnt need to work outside of the home, but wanted to in order to gain economic and emotional independence.

[Y2A]

Sharia law has nothing to do with capitalism no matter how hard you try and blame it on capitalism it just isn&#39;t true.

[RedCeltic]

Why dont you try going to a lecture given by Gloria Steinem (which i have done) or contact angela davis (you can contact her through the university of california system) and ask them what feminism is, what its currently doing, etc.


Because that would require more effort that just clicking on the TV and soaking up whatever they tell you to believe.

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 06:13 AM
Sharia law has nothing to do with capitalism no matter how hard you try and blame it on capitalism it just isn&#39;t true.
once again, did i say it had to do with it? i said its influenced by it, which it is. everyone, everything everywhere in the world is influenced by it no matter how much you deny it.

im not making excuses for these laws, but im also looking at it from more than one perspective.

[synthesis]

The idea that feminists hate beauty is ridiculous. It is perfectly logical to oppose the present &#39;ideal&#39; female body type. This has nothing to do with jealousy on the part of those who do not attempt to achieve such an ideal, but with fear and concern for those who do.

In plain English, we should promote a healthy appearance, as opposed to one that encourages eating disorders and promises ostracism for those who are not naturally blessed with the &#39;correct&#39; body type and do not wish to harm their bodies to conform to it.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by SenoraChe+Jan 16 2004, 06:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SenoraChe @ Jan 16 2004, 06:17 AM)
[email protected] 16 2004, 06:13 AM
Sharia law has nothing to do with capitalism no matter how hard you try and blame it on capitalism it just isn&#39;t true.
once again, did i say it had to do with it? i said its influenced by it, which it is. everyone, everything everywhere in the world is influenced by it no matter how much you deny it.

im not making excuses for these laws, but im also looking at it from more than one perspective. [/b]
And how exactly is it influenced??? Face it, it is misguided islamic laws, by your logic I can say that communism has attributed to sharia law. Sharia law is base completely on the Koran, not capitalism. But of course that is because you view capitalism as a slave system and thus blame every form of slavery on capitalism.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 06:06 AM
And i cant believe you would use the tv and radio to base your opinions on feminism. I would think you would be smart enough to know that these outlets are controlled by corporations meaning that whatever information is being given out is extremely biased and has a purpose (to keep the system intact). Why dont you try going to a lecture given by Gloria Steinem (which i have done) or contact angela davis (you can contact her through the university of california system) and ask them what feminism is, what its currently doing, etc.

And whats wrong with Martha Burke? Oh my goodness, she tried to fight a discriminatory rule which prohibited womyn from playing at a golf course, the same golf course that had prohibited African-Amercians from playing there. Oh my, the horror&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; For crying out loud, would you have this reaction if Black activists were to challenge this rule. No, you wouldnt, so why do it when a woman challenges it?

You have to look at this issue a little deeper than what you see: business meetings/deals take place between executives while playing golf. If womyn are excluded they are not being given the opportunity to take part in these meetings. Also, by excluding womyn you are once again holding strong to the notion that womyn should be in the private sphere, while men be in the public sphere.


No, no, no, no, no. I did not based my opinion on what non feminist on tv said.
I got my opinions from seeing/hearing to feminist leaders being interviewed.

Martha Burke is an idiot.
First of all there is all women golf clubs so whats wrong with an all man golf club?

I heard too many of her interviews.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 06:26 AM
The idea that feminists hate beauty is ridiculous. It is perfectly logical to oppose the present &#39;ideal&#39; female body type. This has nothing to do with jealousy on the part of those who do not attempt to achieve such an ideal, but with fear and concern for those who do.

In plain English, we should promote a healthy appearance, as opposed to one that encourages eating disorders and promises ostracism for those who are not naturally blessed with the &#39;correct&#39; body type and do not wish to harm their bodies to conform to it.
The idea that you believe that idea is truly ridiculous. What about the obese women that many of them defend by saying "big is beautiful" or other moronic garbage in a cheap pitiful attempt to encourage them. The fact is that big is not beautiful and more importantly big is not healthy. Deal with your hypocracy.

[Scottish_Militant]

Some good readings on the subject

Marxism versus feminism - The class struggle and the emancipation of women (http://www.marxist.com/women/marxism_v_feminism.html)

From the rice fields to the modern day call centers - Marxism vs. Feminism Part Two (http://www.marxist.com/Theory/marx_vs_fem2.html)

Marxism and the emancipation of women (http://www.marxist.com/Theory/marxism_and_women.html)

Lenin on the Women&#39;s Question (http://www.marxist.com/women/Lenin_on_women.html)

Lenin knew that only socialism could liberate women properly, he said "The first proletarian dictatorship is a real pioneer in establishing social equality for women. It is clearing away more prejudices than could volumes of feminist literature."

And his organisational notes on the subject were as follows

"The thesis must clearly point out that real freedom for women is possible only through communism. The inseparable connection between the social and human position of the woman, and private property in the means of production, must be strongly brought out. That will draw a clear and ineradicable line of distinction between our policy and feminism. And it will also supply the basis for regarding the woman question as a part of the social question, of the workers&#39; problem, and so bind it firmly to the proletarian class struggle and the revolution. The communist women&#39;s movement must itself be a mass movement, a part of the general mass movement. Not only of the proletariat, but of all the exploited and oppressed, all the victims of capitalism or any other mastery. In that lies its significance for the class struggles of the proletariat and for its historical creation communist society. We can rightly be proud of the fact that in the Party, in the Communist International, we have the flower of revolutionary woman kind. But that is not enough. We must win over to our side the millions of working women in the towns and villages. Win them for our struggles and in particular for the communist transformation of society. There can be no real mass movement without women.

"Our ideological conceptions give rise to principles of organisation. No special organisations for women. A woman communist is a member of the Party just as a man communist, with equal rights and duties. There can be no difference of opinion on that score. Nevertheless, we must not close our eyes to the fact that the Party must have bodies, working groups, commissions, committees, bureaus or whatever you like, whose particular duty it is to arouse the masses of women workers, to bring them into contact with the Party, and to keep them under Its influence. That, of course, involves systematic work among them. We must train those whom we arouse and win, and equip them for the proletarian class struggle under the leadership of the Communist Party. I am thinking not only of proletarian women, whether they work in the factory or at home. The poor peasant women, the petty bourgeois--they, too, are the prey of capitalism, and more so than ever since the war. The unpolitical, unsocial, backward psychology of these women, their isolated sphere of activity, the entire manner of their life--these are facts. It would be absurd to overlook them, absolutely absurd. We need appropriate bodies to carry on work amongst them, special methods of agitation and forms of organisation. That is not feminism, that is practical, revolutionary expediency."

Hope this helps

[synthesis]

The fact that you did not bother to try to understand my post is what&#39;s ridiculous here.


What about the obese women that many of them defend by saying "big is beautiful" or other moronic garbage in a cheap pitiful attempt to encourage them.

When was that ever mentioned - and what does that have to do with anything? Read my post again.

"In plain English, we should promote a healthy appearance, as opposed to one that encourages eating disorders and promises ostracism for those who are not naturally blessed with the &#39;correct&#39; body type and do not wish to harm their bodies to conform to it."

Simply, we should promote an appearance that results from taking actions which are healthy to your mind and body. Exercise and healthy eating as opposed to vomiting your McDonald&#39;s meal into your bathroom toilet.


The fact is that big is not beautiful and more importantly big is not healthy. Deal with your hypocracy.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/s.../straw-man.html (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html)

You are attempting to obscure the issue. I don&#39;t know when people who are overweight due to their own actions - laziness, consumption of unhealthy foods - have ever been supported by feminism, or anybody, really.

And more importantly, "big" and "fat/obese" are completely different things. When have I, or anyone else posting here, ever condoned non-medical obesity? It is clear that obesity is in part a function of capitalism - unhealthy foods are associated in advertising with "beautiful" people, trying to create a mentally direct proportional relationship when in fact they are inverse.

But "big" is something entirely different. People are born with different body structures, and they should not be condemned as "ugly" for something they have absolutely no control over - i.e. something they cannot fix even when they are completely in shape. I don&#39;t see any reason why those born with one of the three body-types should be given preferential treatment over those with the other two. If you disagree, explain to me how, exactly, it is different from racism.

And I don&#39;t even really want to fully get into eating disorders - perfectly healthy people tricked into unhealthy actions by cultural standards.

[deus ex machina]

I&#39;ll reiterate what I once stated on another forum.


Modern feminism isn&#39;t really an attack men per se, but rather it is an attack on masculinity which all men possess in varying degrees, and on the dominant role of the masculine in Western society.

We oppose feminism because it is an attempt to equalize - and in many cases invert - the dichotomy of dominant masculinity and subservient femininity which is integral to Western culture.

[The Feral Underclass]

Absolutly of course. It goes without saying.

xphile said something about women should realise they are capable. They do realise it, but they are side lined by a male oriented society. Women realise perfectly well that they are capable, just as capable as men, they have done for the last 100 years but men in power do not want them to demonstrate that capability so oppress them through the jobs women can choose to the pay they recieve.

Sexism comes in many forms, blatent and latent just as with racism and homophobia. It is a skerge on this planet and a vile and repulsive one at that. Feminism is a cause that should be endorsed by all leftists and moderates as fight worth fighting for. People do not realise how ignorant they are until it is pointed out to them by people who know and understand the situations of the world. Some people dont like being called ignorant, but instead of attempting to justify it why not accept it and correct it. Womens rights is as important as black or gay rights, and until your prejudices have been confronted these white straight men will continue to perpetrate their oppression. Deal with it and have the conviction to fight for something which is right.

SenoraChe

Your post was well written and informing. Unfortunatly, not matter how logical or clear you are it sometimes falls on deaf ears.

[monkeydust]

Senorache we are not all anti-feminists on this board, I was trying to have an intelligent discussion here but I see again El_profe and others though they&#39;d use some completely unfounded stereotypes to fight an arguemnt. I&#39;m just waitng for him to copy and paste another article to argue his point.

Anyway, Senorache, as you seem to be quite well informed about feminism I have a question for you and others who don&#39;t want to spam. I have been thinking a lot on this issue recently. Anyway...

Do you think that the fact that women are not a homogenous group complicates feminists&#39; solutions for substantive equality?

[monkeydust]

A second question for any who want productive debate instead of slaggin matches.

Assuming that representative democracies our going to remain the norm. Should quotas guarantee a greater proportion of women than there is currently?

Myself I think they should, but only as a relatively short term fix for the underlying problems here.

[lucid]

Sorry, but I just couldn&#39;t resist. BTW even though I think pic is funny I am totally for an even playing field for women.

http://www.liquidroot.org/feminists.jpg

[FabFabian]

Just when I thought I would have to launch into a dissertation on feminism, Senora Che spared me. Great effort&#33;

To put in my 2 cents, I am a feminist female who was always led to believe that what the feminist movement has always being trying to establish for women is choice. You can choice to have kids or not, choose to marry or not, have a career or not, but ultimately that being born a female is not a strike against you. As long as you have the talent and ambition to acheive something, your gender should never be an issue. This would apply to those of ethic, faith, sexual orientation, physical disabilities etc. It is the on going struggle to be accepted for who you are not what club you belong to or strict societal edicts that exist.

To those who think that women have acheived everything, what more do they want? The day that I can go outside without the fear that someone might assault me, whistle at me, be judged for how I look or what I wear and not be seen as an object or a lesser being, just maybe we can say that we have acheived everything. Until men and some women get their act together on that account, I&#39;ll still be waiting. For now I refuse to allow misogynist, patriarchal, lame-ass attitudes of other people screw me over&#33;

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 08:02 PM
Sorry, but I just couldn&#39;t resist. BTW even though I think pic is funny I am totally for an even playing field for women.

http://www.liquidroot.org/feminists.jpg
I see fat and ugly in that picture. :lol: :lol: :lol:

and some of them probably hate men or pornstars or models or playmates.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Y2A+Jan 16 2004, 06:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Y2A @ Jan 16 2004, 06:54 AM)
[email protected] 16 2004, 06:26 AM
The idea that feminists hate beauty is ridiculous. It is perfectly logical to oppose the present &#39;ideal&#39; female body type. This has nothing to do with jealousy on the part of those who do not attempt to achieve such an ideal, but with fear and concern for those who do.

In plain English, we should promote a healthy appearance, as opposed to one that encourages eating disorders and promises ostracism for those who are not naturally blessed with the &#39;correct&#39; body type and do not wish to harm their bodies to conform to it.
The idea that you believe that idea is truly ridiculous. What about the obese women that many of them defend by saying "big is beautiful" or other moronic garbage in a cheap pitiful attempt to encourage them. The fact is that big is not beautiful and more importantly big is not healthy. Deal with your hypocracy. [/b]
YEs, so true.
Those stupid "big is beautifull" sayings only encourage the big to get bigger and the thin to get big, which is unhealthy. BIG is not beautifull.

http://www.feminist.org/
look at three famous "models" they have showing off the feminist t-shirts ath the bottom left of the page.
All three fit my stereotype.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 08:41 PM
Just when I thought I would have to launch into a dissertation on feminism, Senora Che spared me. Great effort&#33;

To put in my 2 cents, I am a feminist female who was always led to believe that what the feminist movement has always being trying to establish for women is choice. You can choice to have kids or not, choose to marry or not, have a career or not, but ultimately that being born a female is not a strike against you. As long as you have the talent and ambition to acheive something, your gender should never be an issue. This would apply to those of ethic, faith, sexual orientation, physical disabilities etc. It is the on going struggle to be accepted for who you are not what club you belong to or strict societal edicts that exist.


Thank you from proving my point.

You can have a choice?
You already have a choice, you can decide to marry, to have kids, to have a carrer?

You are or are not accepted for who you are.


To those who think that women have acheived everything, what more do they want? The day that I can go outside without the fear that someone might assault me, whistle at me, be judged for how I look or what I wear and not be seen as an object or a lesser being, just maybe we can say that we have acheived everything. Until men and some women get their act together on that account, I&#39;ll still be waiting. For now I refuse to allow misogynist, patriarchal, lame-ass attitudes of other people screw me over&#33;
:blink: The day you can go outside without fear somoen might assault you?? everyone has the same fear.
Have you ever been assaulted? That is just a retarded statement(what you said).
"Judgdeg for how i look and wear"? THEN FIND SOMEONE WHO does not judge you for how you look or where. I think someone is jealous and resentfull.
What women need to get their act together? the beutifull women? the models? the porn stars? the playmates? which ones? just answer me that.

Or are you the feminist that hates women that are house wifes (by choice)?

[RedCeltic]

Everyone in that photo looks pretty avrage to me. I&#39;ve seen more "fat" people, and more "ugly" people at Republican conventions than in that photo.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 11:11 PM
Everyone in that photo looks pretty avrage to me. I&#39;ve seen more "fat" people, and more "ugly" people at Republican conventions than in that photo.
Just because I am a capitalist does not mean I am a republican(I can&#39;t speak for el profe though) ;)

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Y2A+Jan 16 2004, 11:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Y2A @ Jan 16 2004, 11:12 PM)
[email protected] 16 2004, 11:11 PM
Everyone in that photo looks pretty avrage to me. I&#39;ve seen more "fat" people, and more "ugly" people at Republican conventions than in that photo.
Just because I am a capitalist does not mean I am a republican(I can&#39;t speak for el profe though) ;) [/b]
Same here, Im not a republican.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by el_profe+Jan 16 2004, 11:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Jan 16 2004, 11:18 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 11:12 PM

[email protected] 16 2004, 11:11 PM
Everyone in that photo looks pretty avrage to me. I&#39;ve seen more "fat" people, and more "ugly" people at Republican conventions than in that photo.
Just because I am a capitalist does not mean I am a republican(I can&#39;t speak for el profe though) ;)
Same here, Im not a republican. [/b]
Libertarian???

[Loknar]

Oh boy, these dykes really piss me off, these aren’t the same kind of married women from 100 years ago who had decency, but these are hardcore butch dykes. I hate everything about the feminists, all they want to do is ***** about men for some reason. Women in the work place make less because they are less competitive than men, work less hours, and are less career oriented. Now, should men and women have the same rights, of course, but are we &#39;equal&#39;? equal means to be exactly alike, 2 = 2, ect, so women and men are different. Women live and thrive off of emotion, they tend to learn quicker than men, but they are not as physically strong as men, thus not being able to perform many of the same tasks. But, if we men have learned anything from these dykes, their influence in the courts, on pregnancy, the conclusion is they hate men and want t o make us impotent.

[RedCeltic]

so? I&#39;ve still seen more ugly and or fat people at republican conventions. I&#39;m saying that the people in that photo all look like average Americans.

[RedCeltic]

Women in the work place make less because they are less competitive than men, work less hours, and are less career oriented.

I&#39;m not even going to touch your homophobic remark.... but as for this comment, you are totally wrong. For one thing, women have showen to be actually more competitive than men at most ages as well. Women in the busness world have shown to be shrewder and more cutthrought.

Also, the reason why the birthrate in America has dropped in the last few deccades is because women are more career oriented, and have shown that they are able to work more hours under more stress than men are.

If you watch Trump&#39;s new show the Apprentice, you will see where you are wrong, as the women often do as good or better than the men.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Y2A+Jan 16 2004, 11:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Y2A @ Jan 16 2004, 11:22 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 11:12 PM

[email protected] 16 2004, 11:11 PM
Everyone in that photo looks pretty avrage to me. I&#39;ve seen more "fat" people, and more "ugly" people at Republican conventions than in that photo.
Just because I am a capitalist does not mean I am a republican(I can&#39;t speak for el profe though) ;)
Same here, Im not a republican.
Libertarian??? [/b]
no.

[Soul Rebel]

El Profe- what is your freaking issue with big womyn? Who the hell cares if they are big? Who said big cant be beautiful? I know many womyn who are big (but not feminist) and are extremely beautiful (physically and character wise). Are you upset because you got rejected by a big woman? Being big does not make you ugly. What makes big womyn ugly is societys fucking "thin is in" standards. It is society that teaches people that being anorexically thin is beautiful, when the reality is that it isnt. Only 8 percent of the womyn in the WORLD can reach that thinness naturally. The rest of us have to work at it. So why punish those that dont want to work for it? If they dont want to be thin, than that is their decision and its not something for us to make fun of them for.

And i dont know when you are going to get it through you thick skull that not all feminists are ugly or big. Most arent. Its a stereotype, which you said yourself (its my stereotype). Is that why you hate feminists- because you think they are ugly? Im sure it is and i find it quite childish and pathetic. Who would have thought that we would support a movement based on looks. Thats the craziest shit i have ever heard.

And just because you find Margaret Cho, Whoopi Goldberg, and Camryn Manheim ugly doesnt mean they are. I for one, all of them attractive. They are smart and strong and physically pretty as well. They may not be thin, like Ashley Judd, but they are beautiful anyways. Funny, that you say nothing about Judd. Wouldnt the fact that she is a feminist automatically make her ugly?

You have no basis whatsoever for your hatred of feminists. You have showed no good arguments against feminists, except for stereotypes, which are sexist and homophobic.

You argue that we hate sex workers and models, which i repeatedly tell you is not true. How freaking hard is it for you to understand that? As feminists, we are probably their biggest supporters.

And i love your stupid comments about being jealous. I have no reason to be jealous of anyone and neither does any other woman here. I think i look fine and am quite happy with how i look, i dont need to look like anyone else. I might as well say that every other man here is jealous of Ricky Martin because so many men say he is gay. Must be jealousy then. Get fucking over it.

I hope that someday all you anti-feminist fools get educated on the subject before continuing to make stupid, uninformed remarks. there is so much to feminism that you dont know (hell you dont even know a damn thing). the issues in feminism are much deeper than "are we equal" and "equal pay for equal work." Maybe you should check out this thing called a library (one at a university is best), look at some books, then think about whats actually there.

[redstar2000]

But, if we men have learned anything from these dykes, their influence in the courts, on pregnancy, the conclusion is they hate men and want to make us impotent.

In some cases, that won&#39;t take much work at all. :lol:

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Y2A]

what is your freaking issue with big womyn? Who the hell cares if they are big? Who said big cant be beautiful? I know many womyn who are big (but not feminist) and are extremely beautiful (physically and character wise). Are you upset because you got rejected by a big woman? Being big does not make you ugly. What makes big womyn ugly is societys fucking "thin is in" standards. It is society that teaches people that being anorexically thin is beautiful, when the reality is that it isnt

Don&#39;t lie to yourself and as I said big is not healthy. You say that it is "ok" to be big but wrong to be thin, do you not see the hypocracy in that?


And just because you find Margaret Cho, Whoopi Goldberg, and Camryn Manheim ugly doesnt mean they are. I for one, all of them attractive.

That&#39;s your opinion, am I not entitled to mine?



You argue that we hate sex workers and models, which i repeatedly tell you is not true. How freaking hard is it for you to understand that? As feminists, we are probably their biggest supporters.

That is such a lie, the majority of feminists would agree that sex workers are "degrading" themselves. The majority are far from "supporters".

[Soul Rebel]

I did not say that big was healty or that being thin is wrong at all so stop looking too into what i say. I was saying that it does not automatically make someone ugly. So rather than putting words in mouth, why dont you read what is actually there. Is that so difficult for you to do?

Also, being thin is not exactly healthy either. Being at a normal weight is healthy. Being at a weight that is right for your body structure is healthy. When someone is obese (not big, but obese; which is a big difference) or too thin it is not healthy. A variety of health problems come to both physical forms so deal with it ok?

Sure you can be untitled to your opinion, but its still ridiculous to say that all feminists are ugly considering that you have not seen every single feminist around the world. Until you do your opinion is crap.

And dont you come in here telling me that the feminist position on sex work is crap. You dont have any fucking clue about feminism, feminist issues, and feminist responses. I on the other hand am a feminist who has worked extensively in researching sex work and is a sex work supporter, so i actually have knowledge about the topic and can make honest statements. I know what im talking about so dont dare tell me that its crap, when all you can do is base your "opinions" on stereotypes. Until you are actually informed on the topic dont even bother to open your mouth about feminism and sex work.

SOME feminists may be against sex work, but the majority have been working towards decriminalizing sex work for a variety of reasons. Decriminalization allows the sex worker to take control of her own business, it allows for a safer environment, it allows sex workers to feel more comfortable going to the cops if something happens, it allows for womyn to be able to get better health care and advice, it can destroy the stigma that is held in society about sex work and sex workers, and so much more. Feminists have also been supporting such groups as COYOTE (Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics) and the EDA (Exotic Dancers Alliance) with funding and pushing in the lawmaking area.

[Y2A]

Yep as I expected a pissed off response. And I was looking for a rational debate :(

Next time I have a debate on capitalism, I&#39;ll say "You dont have any fucking clue about capitalism, capitalist issues, and capitalist responses. I on the other hand am a capitalist"

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 03:45 PM
Yep as I expected a pissed off response. And I was looking for a rational debate :(

Next time I have a debate on capitalism, I&#39;ll say "You dont have any fucking clue about capitalism, capitalist issues, and capitalist responses. I on the other hand am a capitalist"
Whatever man. Ive been giving nothing but informed structured posts and all you and el_profe have been doing is making ridiculous comments that are based on stereotypes. Neither one of you has even attempted to write a structured response with actual information. All you&#39;ve been looking for is a fight, not a rational debate because i already gave you that and you ignored it all.

And yeah, i am getting annoyed because we keep going in circles. Neither one of you wants to move beyond talking about your stereotypes.

And i do have every right to talk about capitalism because in order to defend my views on communism i have to be very aware about capitalism. Im very informed about both sides, so i can make more than a "capitalism sucks" post. But you havent shown this with feminism at all. You havent even attempted to study feminism or understand what it is truly about. All you have done is turn to stereotypes to defend your opinion. You have to be informed about both sides in order to take part in an argument.

[Y2A]

SOME feminists may be against sex work, but the majority have been working towards decriminalizing sex work for a variety of reasons. Decriminalization allows the sex worker to take control of her own business, it allows for a safer environment, it allows sex workers to feel more comfortable going to the cops if something happens, it allows for womyn to be able to get better health care and advice, it can destroy the stigma that is held in society about sex work and sex workers, and so much more. Feminists have also been supporting such groups as COYOTE (Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics) and the EDA (Exotic Dancers Alliance) with funding and pushing in the lawmaking area.

As I said before I am for legalization and decriminalization of most idiotic laws and thus am for the legalization of prostitution. Do you have any links so I can learn more about feminist support for sex workers?

[Soul Rebel]

you can go to both the Coyote (who has had an alliance with NOW- a liberal feminist group that called for the decriminalization of prostitution in 1972) and EDA websites. Both websites list groups that are supporting them. You will find that many will be womyns groups.

The sites are www.coyotesea.org and www.eda-sf.org

You can check out books to: LIVE SEX ACTS-WOMYN PERFORMING EROTIC LABOR by Wendy Chapkis; WHORES AND OTHER FEMINISTS by Jill Nagle.

You can also check Feminist.org and Now.org However, when you look at the articles on sex work there are a lot of things to take into consideration and why they have the reaction they have. For example, there is a big difference between being a prostitute in india or thailand and being a prostitute in the us. They are two complete systems of work. Most prostitutes in india and thailand are little girls who were sold off to smugglers and "pimps." These girls are told that they are going to be doing waitressing, for example, but are made prostitutes instead. They never get out of the system and go through harsh physical and emotional treatment. But the story of prositution in the us is a bit different. Many womyn choose (directly or indirectly) to get into this field to work and have more control over their work than asian prostitutes. And they are not all little girls. Because of the difference in these two scenerios feminist may and will have different responses to each one. So just because they are against what is taking place in asia, it doesnt mean that they are against all sex work.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 01:04 AM
El Profe- what is your freaking issue with big womyn? Who the hell cares if they are big? Who said big cant be beautiful? I know many womyn who are big (but not feminist) and are extremely beautiful (physically and character wise). Are you upset because you got rejected by a big woman? Being big does not make you ugly. What makes big womyn ugly is societys fucking "thin is in" standards. It is society that teaches people that being anorexically thin is beautiful, when the reality is that it isnt. Only 8 percent of the womyn in the WORLD can reach that thinness naturally. The rest of us have to work at it. So why punish those that dont want to work for it? If they dont want to be thin, than that is their decision and its not something for us to make fun of them for.




My issues with big women, nothing, Its unhealthy. Big does not make ugly but it helps.
What makes big women ugly is societies fucking "thin is in" standars? no, its just men prefer a women that weights more than they do. Also its repulsive to see the extremely fat women.
Society doesnt teach that anorixically thin is beutifull.
So your practically saying fat women are lazy and dont want to work to keep their body healthy.
If they dont want to be thin yes its their desicion, its a stuid desicion, but its their decision.
Amazing how you defend a fat women or person, for being fat because of laziness.


And i dont know when you are going to get it through you thick skull that not all feminists are ugly or big. Most arent. Its a stereotype, which you said yourself (its my stereotype). Is that why you hate feminists- because you think they are ugly? Im sure it is and i find it quite childish and pathetic. Who would have thought that we would support a movement based on looks. Thats the craziest shit i have ever heard.

I never said all feminist are ugly or big, read my post i said feminist fit at least into 2 of these descriptions.
I hate them because of their stupid pursuit of equality and discrimination. Women are not discriminated by society, are you crazy. There already is equality. give me an example of how society discrimainates or does not give women the same rights?


And just because you find Margaret Cho, Whoopi Goldberg, and Camryn Manheim ugly doesnt mean they are. I for one, all of them attractive. They are smart and strong and physically pretty as well. They may not be thin, like Ashley Judd, but they are beautiful anyways. Funny, that you say nothing about Judd. Wouldnt the fact that she is a feminist automatically make her ugly?
:blink: Cho, Golberg and manheim are not ugly? manheim is and she is also fat, the other 2 are average.
Physically pretty? dont try to fool yourself into believing something that is not real.
Judd is an exception. Feminist does not make you ugly, ugly makes you a feminist. :lol: :lol: :lol: jk. But the feminist that hate pornstars and models usually do taht because they are jealous.

[bush youth]

If they dont want to be thin yes its their desicion, its a stuid desicion, but its their decision.Not everyone can just go on a diet and lose weight.
95-98% of all diets fail over three years. And it’s not usually the fault of the person who went on the diet either. Keep in mind genetics and metabolism. Two very main factors that can’t just be changed. Generally, fat people don’t even eat more than skinny people anyways.


My issues with big women, nothing, Its unhealthy.
Because it’s mostly based on genetics and metabolism, whether it’s healthy or not is irrelevant. It may be unhealthy, but that’s the way they were born. Going on a diet is usually even less healthy.


I never said all feminist are ugly or big, read my post i said feminist fit at least into 2 of these descriptions.
I fail to see the relationship between “feminism” and “fat" or "ugly" people. So far, of the pictures shown, all seem pretty normal to me, and probably to most people. You can say anyone is either ugly or fat. And criticizing their physical appearances has nothing to do with their actual ideas anyways.


But the feminist that hate pornstars and models usually do taht because they are jealous.
Hah&#33; Jealous of what? Believe it or not, feminists aren’t the way they are just because guys like you don’t like them. Don’t kid yourself, you’re not superior. Feminists will make sure of that :lol:

[redstar2000]

I hate them [feminists] because of their stupid pursuit of equality...Women are not discriminated [against] by society, are you crazy? There already is equality. Give me an example of how society discriminates or does not give women the same rights.

Women are not permitted to play professional baseball in the United States, period.

Not because they are "not good enough"...they are not even permitted the chance to prove whether they are good enough or not.

You asked for an example; there&#39;s your example.

The vast bulk of discrimination against women is "unofficial" of course...much like that against ethnic minorities. White males just "prefer" to have other white males to work with...so that&#39;s who they "pick". They&#39;ll always say that "females aren&#39;t qualified" or that ethnic minorities of both sexes "aren&#39;t qualified"...which is true. They lack the qualifying genitalia or the qualifying melanin deficiency.

If you don&#39;t have that, it doesn&#39;t much matter what you do have.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Commie Girl]

:o Here is a concept that has been offered in the recent past......

women and men should get equal pay for work of equal value.

[hazard]

last time I checked, women DO have the same rights as men

additionally, they receive many benefits that men do not

your question, like most in the realm of feminism, are loaded so as to infer that any additional rights granted on abasis of gender are only enacted so as to equalize the differences between women and men. however, on a basis of law and constitution, women are treated no differently than men. any adtional rights granted will only serve to make men second class citizens to women as opposed to harmonizing any differences between the genders.

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by el_profe+Jan 17 2004, 06:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Jan 17 2004, 06:31 PM)
[email protected] 17 2004, 01:04 AM
El Profe- what is your freaking issue with big womyn? Who the hell cares if they are big? Who said big cant be beautiful? I know many womyn who are big (but not feminist) and are extremely beautiful (physically and character wise). Are you upset because you got rejected by a big woman? Being big does not make you ugly. What makes big womyn ugly is societys fucking "thin is in" standards. It is society that teaches people that being anorexically thin is beautiful, when the reality is that it isnt. Only 8 percent of the womyn in the WORLD can reach that thinness naturally. The rest of us have to work at it. So why punish those that dont want to work for it? If they dont want to be thin, than that is their decision and its not something for us to make fun of them for.




My issues with big women, nothing, Its unhealthy. Big does not make ugly but it helps.
What makes big women ugly is societies fucking "thin is in" standars? no, its just men prefer a women that weights more than they do. Also its repulsive to see the extremely fat women.
Society doesnt teach that anorixically thin is beutifull.
So your practically saying fat women are lazy and dont want to work to keep their body healthy.
If they dont want to be thin yes its their desicion, its a stuid desicion, but its their decision.
Amazing how you defend a fat women or person, for being fat because of laziness.


And i dont know when you are going to get it through you thick skull that not all feminists are ugly or big. Most arent. Its a stereotype, which you said yourself (its my stereotype). Is that why you hate feminists- because you think they are ugly? Im sure it is and i find it quite childish and pathetic. Who would have thought that we would support a movement based on looks. Thats the craziest shit i have ever heard.

I never said all feminist are ugly or big, read my post i said feminist fit at least into 2 of these descriptions.
I hate them because of their stupid pursuit of equality and discrimination. Women are not discriminated by society, are you crazy. There already is equality. give me an example of how society discrimainates or does not give women the same rights?


And just because you find Margaret Cho, Whoopi Goldberg, and Camryn Manheim ugly doesnt mean they are. I for one, all of them attractive. They are smart and strong and physically pretty as well. They may not be thin, like Ashley Judd, but they are beautiful anyways. Funny, that you say nothing about Judd. Wouldnt the fact that she is a feminist automatically make her ugly?
:blink: Cho, Golberg and manheim are not ugly? manheim is and she is also fat, the other 2 are average.
Physically pretty? dont try to fool yourself into believing something that is not real.
Judd is an exception. Feminist does not make you ugly, ugly makes you a feminist. :lol: :lol: :lol: jk. But the feminist that hate pornstars and models usually do taht because they are jealous. [/b]
Yes, it is society&#39;s "thin is in" image that makes big womyn appear to be ugly, even if they are not. When you look on a magazine there is always a thin model. When you go to a fashion show, the models are thin. Actresses are basically required to be thin. Sorry to break the news to you: but our society dictates what is beautiful and what is not. Years ago, Marilyn Monroe, a size 14/16 was considered to be sexy and graceful. Now adays, a woman who is a size 14/16 is considered to be fat, when the reality is that that is a normal size. This is why you believe "extremely fat people" to be repulsive- because you were taught to. You can deny it as much as you want, but its true.

And men dont just prefer a woman to weigh less- they are taught that this is what they want. Womyn are to be petite, while men are supposed to be buff---according to society. This is why when you look at magazine covers, actors, or even at a local gym you see men and womyn looking quite different, working towards different physical looks.

And i never said that people were big because they were lazy. Once again you missed the point and decided to just put words in my mouth. Im going to try to explain this to you one more time, but in easier terms: only 8 percent of womyn around the world are naturally thin or the model type. The rest of us have to work at it because our genetic makeup did not make us naturally thin. Now, if people do not work out (not because they are lazy, but for other reasons- such as that they just dont want to, and they have every right to do so), unless you are part of the eight percent, you will gain weight. This applies to everyone, it applies to me, it applies to you, to everyone. While some of us decide to work out, others decide not to, while others do work out but get no results. Do you get it now? No where did i say they were lazy, so stop making stuff up. Once again-read what is actually there.

You hate feminists because of their constant persuit of equality? That is the most absurd thing i have ever heard. So do you hate the ARA (antiracist action) because of their constant persuit of racial equality? So i guess in your eyes all political groups that are in constant persuit of equality are bad, leading you to hate them. Really, couldnt you come up with a better excuse?

How are womyn not discriminated against in society. My goodness, what time period do you live in? Are you really that blind that you cannot see what is going on in the world around you? You want examples- how about the "feminization of poverty"? That is discriminatory. The fact that womyn still to this day only make 76 cents to every dollar that a man makes is discriminatory (this starts to change as you also look at it from a racial perspective- white womyn make more than black womyn who make more than hispanic womyn). The fact that a man who enters a "womans" field with less experience starts off making more and more chances for mobility. The fact that there is a constant debate about abortion is discriminatory- we have men making laws based on womyns bodies. The fact that health care covers Viagra, but not birth control is discriminatory. The fact that we still have gender roles in general is discriminatory. Should i continue? I think you have failed completely to see what discrimination is. It is more than just being treated equally. It has to do with laws, gender roles, stereotypes, etc.

And about those three womyn- they are beautiful. Im not fooling myself into believing they are beautiful. I truly feel they are. But i guess you wouldnt understand that since its not a shallow perspective. Im sorry i dont base my standards of beauty on weight or ethnicity, as you do.

Are you really this dense? How long will it take you to understand that feminists do not hate sex workers? If a certain group of feminists is against sex workers, they are not agains the sex workers themselves. They are against the work, they are against the system that supports this work, they are against the stereotypes (both sexist and racist) that are found in sex work, etc. Like i said- why dont you educate yourself on the subject before you jump in making ridiculous, uniformed remarks. If its about jealousy, than i take it that you must be jealous of feminists---otherwise you wouldnt have this hatred.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by bush [email protected] 17 2004, 08:18 PM

If they dont want to be thin yes its their desicion, its a stuid desicion, but its their decision.Not everyone can just go on a diet and lose weight.
95-98% of all diets fail over three years. And it’s not usually the fault of the person who went on the diet either. Keep in mind genetics and metabolism. Two very main factors that can’t just be changed. Generally, fat people don’t even eat more than skinny people anyways.


My issues with big women, nothing, Its unhealthy.
Because it’s mostly based on genetics and metabolism, whether it’s healthy or not is irrelevant. It may be unhealthy, but that’s the way they were born. Going on a diet is usually even less healthy.


I never said all feminist are ugly or big, read my post i said feminist fit at least into 2 of these descriptions.
I fail to see the relationship between “feminism” and “fat" or "ugly" people. So far, of the pictures shown, all seem pretty normal to me, and probably to most people. You can say anyone is either ugly or fat. And criticizing their physical appearances has nothing to do with their actual ideas anyways.


Fat is not based on genetics. If it where genetics then more poeple around the world would be fat.
Your only solution to getting thiner is diet? no working out works better and healthier.
We live in the Victim Era. everyone is a victim, there not fat because of their fault (some arent but most are), they get bad grades and dont pay attention in class so they must have attention deficit disorder. You even see this with killers, he killed because he had a tough childhood. This is all bs, we(society) are eliminating personal responsibility.

Metabolism and genetics determins what type of body your going to have, skinny, medium build or shaq. It does not make you fat.



But the feminist that hate pornstars and models usually do taht because they are jealous.
Hah&#33; Jealous of what? Believe it or not, feminists aren’t the way they are just because guys like you don’t like them. Don’t kid yourself, you’re not superior. Feminists will make sure of that :lol:
what???

Redstar:

Women are not permitted to play professional baseball in the United States, period.

Not because they are "not good enough"...they are not even permitted the chance to prove whether they are good enough or not.

You asked for an example; there&#39;s your example.

The vast bulk of discrimination against women is "unofficial" of course...much like that against ethnic minorities. White males just "prefer" to have other white males to work with...so that&#39;s who they "pick". They&#39;ll always say that "females aren&#39;t qualified" or that ethnic minorities of both sexes "aren&#39;t qualified"...which is true. They lack the qualifying genitalia or the qualifying melanin deficiency.

If you don&#39;t have that, it doesn&#39;t much matter what you do have.
So, you want them to get killed by a 90mph fastaball. Look at wie the 14 yrd old playing in the pga tour event this weekend. No discrimination there. Did you hear about the middle school gril who played as a kicker and got killed by a hit when they blocked her kick and they went after the ball she got hit and dies. That is why women dont play professional sports with men, men are stronger so they can hurt them.
Besides MLB is a private organization they have the right to not allow women to play, and if there was a women good enought to play, I bet one team would try to sign her and try to get the rule changed.


White males just prefer to work with white males? not true in baseball, football, soccer, basketball and in millions of other jobs. I am an ethnic minority(i dont think you are) and i have not felt discriminated against.

In jobs people will hire whoever is more qualified, why do you think baseball desegregated?

P.S. TO EVERYONE WHITE ON THIS FORUM(ALMOST EVERYONE), I (A MINORITY) DONT NEED YOUR HELP FIGHTING FOR MY RIGHTS and my "equality", you think minorities are dumb so they need the help of white "smart" people like you, NO we dont, so go fight for white people rights and leave us the fuck alone.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 05:32 AM
Yes, it is society&#39;s "thin is in" image that makes big womyn appear to be ugly, even if they are not. When you look on a magazine there is always a thin model. When you go to a fashion show, the models are thin. Actresses are basically required to be thin. Sorry to break the news to you: but our society dictates what is beautiful and what is not. Years ago, Marilyn Monroe, a size 14/16 was considered to be sexy and graceful. Now adays, a woman who is a size 14/16 is considered to be fat, when the reality is that that is a normal size. This is why you believe "extremely fat people" to be repulsive- because you were taught to. You can deny it as much as you want, but its true.

And men dont just prefer a woman to weigh less- they are taught that this is what they want. Womyn are to be petite, while men are supposed to be buff---according to society. This is why when you look at magazine covers, actors, or even at a local gym you see men and womyn looking quite different, working towards different physical looks.




No i wasnt thaught not to like 200 lbs. women.
"In a magazine their is always a thin model" yes, cuase thats what men want to see, no one wants to see a 200lbs. with giantic stretchmarks.
Society dictates what is beutifull, yes, men and women of society dictate wats beutifull.
No extremely fat people are not repulsive because i was taught they where repulsive, they are repulsive because they wheigh more than me, they have a lot of Cellulitis and they have giantic stretchmarks.
If you think they are beautifull, good for you, Am I not entitled to my opinion?


And i never said that people were big because they were lazy. Once again you missed the point and decided to just put words in my mouth. Im going to try to explain this to you one more time, but in easier terms: only 8 percent of womyn around the world are naturally thin or the model type. The rest of us have to work at it because our genetic makeup did not make us naturally thin. Now, if people do not work out (not because they are lazy, but for other reasons- such as that they just dont want to, and they have every right to do so), unless you are part of the eight percent, you will gain weight. This applies to everyone, it applies to me, it applies to you, to everyone. While some of us decide to work out, others decide not to, while others do work out but get no results. Do you get it now? No where did i say they were lazy, so stop making stuff up. Once again-read what is actually there.

You hate feminists because of their constant persuit of equality? That is the most absurd thing i have ever heard. So do you hate the ARA (antiracist action) because of their constant persuit of racial equality? So i guess in your eyes all political groups that are in constant persuit of equality are bad, leading you to hate them. Really, couldnt you come up with a better excuse?

How are womyn not discriminated against in society. My goodness, what time period do you live in? Are you really that blind that you cannot see what is going on in the world around you? You want examples- how about the "feminization of poverty"? That is discriminatory. The fact that womyn still to this day only make 76 cents to every dollar that a man makes is discriminatory (this starts to change as you also look at it from a racial perspective- white womyn make more than black womyn who make more than hispanic womyn). The fact that a man who enters a "womans" field with less experience starts off making more and more chances for mobility. The fact that there is a constant debate about abortion is discriminatory- we have men making laws based on womyns bodies. The fact that health care covers Viagra, but not birth control is discriminatory. The fact that we still have gender roles in general is discriminatory. Should i continue? I think you have failed completely to see what discrimination is. It is more than just being treated equally. It has to do with laws, gender roles, stereotypes, etc.
Yes I hate antirascist organizations and feminist, because they over step there boundaries and thanks to them we live in this PC world, where you cant say shit without offending someone. And for your information i am a latin "minority" and i hate all the latin groups that fight for "equal" rights for latins, all they do is help create the PC world, and they try to pressutre everyone into doing things or else they will say that they are rascist. YOU MUST LOVE THE PC(polotically correct) WORLD WE LIVE IN, I bet you get mad when you see a "offensive" joke on tv.

women make less than men, so? each gets paid according to what they produce. There are women CEO&#39;s that get paid better than men.



And about those three womyn- they are beautiful. Im not fooling myself into believing they are beautiful. I truly feel they are. But i guess you wouldnt understand that since its not a shallow perspective. Im sorry i dont base my standards of beauty on weight or ethnicity, as you do.

Are you really this dense? How long will it take you to understand that feminists do not hate sex workers? If a certain group of feminists is against sex workers, they are not agains the sex workers themselves. They are against the work, they are against the system that supports this work, they are against the stereotypes (both sexist and racist) that are found in sex work, etc. Like i said- why dont you educate yourself on the subject before you jump in making ridiculous, uniformed remarks. If its about jealousy, than i take it that you must be jealous of feminists---otherwise you wouldnt have this hatred.
Shallow perspective? forgive me for not liking 200 lbs. women.
Feminist dont hate sex worker? I dont mean prostitutes, I mean pornstars and playmates and models.
What system supports this work? the men that buy the vidoes the magazines?

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 01:10 AM
Women are not permitted to play professional baseball in the United States, period.

Not because they are "not good enough"...they are not even permitted the chance to prove whether they are good enough or not.

You asked for an example; there&#39;s your example.

The vast bulk of discrimination against women is "unofficial" of course...much like that against ethnic minorities. White males just "prefer" to have other white males to work with...so that&#39;s who they "pick". They&#39;ll always say that "females aren&#39;t qualified" or that ethnic minorities of both sexes "aren&#39;t qualified"...which is true. They lack the qualifying genitalia or the qualifying melanin deficiency.

If you don&#39;t have that, it doesn&#39;t much matter what you do have.
Woah, that&#39;s the dumbest thing I&#39;ve ever heard.

[BuyOurEverything]

Fat is not based on genetics. If it where genetics then more poeple around the world would be fat.


Do you even know what the fuck you&#39;re talking about?

[redstar2000]

So, you want them to get killed by a 90mph fastball? Look at wie[?] the 14 yr. old playing in the PGA tour event this weekend. No discrimination there. Did you hear about the middle school girl who played as a kicker and got killed by a hit when they blocked her kick and they went after the ball she got hit and dies. That is why women don&#39;t play professional sports with men, men are stronger so they can hurt them.

And men don&#39;t hurt other men in professional sports?

In fact, high school football is far more deadly than professional sports. A half-dozen or so kids die every season.

But I&#39;m not suggesting that women should play professional football or basketball--those are "big men" sports, where strength and size generally determine the outcome.

Baseball is a sport where the "good little guy" can beat the "good big guy" and do it consistently. I think there are women alive today who, with proper training and experience, could both pitch and play the middle infield positions at the major league level. She wouldn&#39;t have a 90mph fast ball; she&#39;d throw an 80mph curve and a 65mph change-up and a 45mph knuckleball...and would drive all but the very best major league hitters right up the wall. Or, she&#39;d play shortstop or 2nd base with grace and agility, turning the double play effortlessly.

She wouldn&#39;t hit with power; but she&#39;d beat out a lot of infield hits, get the bunt down, move the runners over. She&#39;d probably hit around .275 with 50-60 ribbies.

And thanks to assholes like yourself, we&#39;ll never get the chance to see her play.


Besides MLB is a private organization, they have the right to not allow women to play.

You asked for an example, I gave you one.

Now you want to say that it&#39;s "ok" for "private organizations" to discriminate any way they want.

YOU FUCKING HYPOCRITE&#33;


TO EVERYONE WHITE ON THIS FORUM (ALMOST EVERYONE), I (A MINORITY) DON&#39;T NEED YOUR HELP FIGHTING FOR MY RIGHTS.

Have no fears. I wouldn&#39;t take the trouble to stop and piss on a dickhead like you if you were burning to death.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 02:36 PM

So, you want them to get killed by a 90mph fastball? Look at wie[?] the 14 yr. old playing in the PGA tour event this weekend. No discrimination there. Did you hear about the middle school girl who played as a kicker and got killed by a hit when they blocked her kick and they went after the ball she got hit and dies. That is why women don&#39;t play professional sports with men, men are stronger so they can hurt them.

And men don&#39;t hurt other men in professional sports?

In fact, high school football is far more deadly than professional sports. A half-dozen or so kids die every season.

But I&#39;m not suggesting that women should play professional football or basketball--those are "big men" sports, where strength and size generally determine the outcome.

Baseball is a sport where the "good little guy" can beat the "good big guy" and do it consistently. I think there are women alive today who, with proper training and experience, could both pitch and play the middle infield positions at the major league level. She wouldn&#39;t have a 90mph fast ball; she&#39;d throw an 80mph curve and a 65mph change-up and a 45mph knuckleball...and would drive all but the very best major league hitters right up the wall. Or, she&#39;d play shortstop or 2nd base with grace and agility, turning the double play effortlessly.

She wouldn&#39;t hit with power; but she&#39;d beat out a lot of infield hits, get the bunt down, move the runners over. She&#39;d probably hit around .275 with 50-60 ribbies.

And thanks to assholes like yourself, we&#39;ll never get the chance to see her play.



If there was a women that was good at baseball she would of tried to get into the mlb already, or she would play baseball in H.S.
If there was a great women pitcher I would love to have her pitch for my team, and so would baseball teams like to have her. Besides why dont women make a baseball league, like the WNBA?

are you also against the Wta? womens tennis association? they discriminate against men by not letting them play in their tournaments? or the Lpga? they pga does not discriminate women, but the lpga does, ***** about that. MORON

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 08:31 AM

Fat is not based on genetics. If it where genetics then more poeple around the world would be fat.


Do you even know what the fuck you&#39;re talking about?
yes, are you saying everyone fat is fat because of genetics. Genetics does not make you fat?
are you trying to find an excuse to justify why your fat?

[dopediana]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 01:40 PM
yes one of my teachers is one of them, i rip her of alot. but shes very bias between the boys and the girls.
my statistics teacher is a feminist but since it&#39;s a statistics class she never got to know my politics and she hates the boys in the class. but i&#39;m friends with all the boys, more than with the girls and i goof off alot with them so basically she treats me like she treats like all the boys just because i don&#39;t afast myself from them. but it&#39;s pretty shocking what she does. she&#39;ll use statistical examples that are possibly true but are like "statistical analyses show girls have better study habits and are more likely to succeed in the long run than boys."

you can&#39;t blame some feminists for wanting to be superior to men. after all, women used to always have to curtsy and show signs of submission to men and that is absolutely disgusting. in "bloody poetry" rehearsal i have to curtsy to lord byron and it feels so disgusting and absurd. displays of yielding and submission should be abolished. noone should have to pledge allegiance to anything, much less another human, and even less someone of the opposite sex unless it&#39;s completely out of love and devotion and own free will.

i was at the gas station today filling my tank and had gone inside to pay and get a coffee. when i came out, looking unusual because of my dreadlocks, this truck had about four or five bearded, repulsive redneck guys in it who whistled and grunted at me. i flipped the birdie. i shouldn&#39;t have to deal with assholes who express appreciation for my physical appearance in such nasty ways. guys shouldn&#39;t have to deal with women whistling at them. i appreciate subtle displays, like holding the door open, or covering the tax on my coffee when i don&#39;t have any change. thing is, it&#39;s not even like that because i do the same thing for people of both genders. it&#39;s all about mutual respect. only when men learn to respect women and vice versa will we be able to stop *****ing about all this stuff. and i&#39;m not one of those feminazis who&#39;s like "i can hold my own fucking door open, thanks very much." i think of it as a display of reverence. and that&#39;s a good thing. keep it up.

[deus ex machina]

Why is equality a "good" thing?

[BuyOurEverything]

yes, are you saying everyone fat is fat because of genetics. Genetics does not make you fat?
are you trying to find an excuse to justify why your fat?

Genetics determine a person&#39;s metabolism which in turn plays a large part in determining their weight. Obviously diet and excercise play a part too, but two people can eat exactly the same thing and excercise the exact same amount and one of them could be fat and the other one skinny, depending on their metabolism.

Also, what did you mean when you said this:


If it where genetics then more poeple around the world would be fat.

I don&#39;t think you really undrstand genetics at all.

[deus ex machina]

People who live in cold climates have adapted over the years a low metabolism which, when exposed to the high fat diets of the modern West, often causes these people to become obese.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 12:00 AM
are you also against the Wta? womens tennis association? they discriminate against men by not letting them play in their tournaments? or the Lpga? they pga does not discriminate women, but the lpga does, ***** about that. MORON
Can you say, hypocrites.

[Loknar]

I think it&#39;s time I post some words of wisdom from the best philisopher of our time:




















http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=stupid_*****
http://maddox.xmission.com/femnazi2.html
http://maddox.xmission.com/feminazi.html


Feminism is in a lot of ways like fascism. Your average Fascist will disregard any scientific argument unless the conclusion supports his existing belief. The ideology comes first and the Fascist looks for anything to back it up, no matter how trivial, unreliable or discredited. Much like today&#39;s feminists and their ideology. Fascists attempt to rationalize their beliefs and portray them as truth by twisting the facts. A fascist might, for example, cast blame for unemployment and work discontent on immigrants "stealing" their jobs. Feminists similarly cast blame for women&#39;s lower average pay onto another party (men). Both feminists and fascists are quick to cast blame on someone else for anything that goes wrong in their lives.



What&#39;s the point of not shaving your armpits and not wearing your bras? If you like yourself better with hairy armpits, then by all means don&#39;t shave. But if you&#39;re not shaving to make some stupid point, you&#39;r a fool. Nobody cares. You won&#39;t be a social outcast if you don&#39;t shave your armpits. Same thing goes for not wearing a bra. If you&#39;d rather not wear a bra, then don&#39;t. If you want to walk around in public without your shirt on, then by all means do it. I&#39;m sure most guys wouldn&#39;t mind. If you want that kind of attention, then walk around naked. It won&#39;t help your image with men that already think of women as little more than sex.




Why do so many women insist on carrying out this war against men? Absolute gender equality isn&#39;t going to happen; we have gender equality now. Even if in a million years, men and women somehow made this unrealistic ideal happen, there will always be a sexual distinction between men and women causing some sort of inequality (if only on the level of basic physical needs). Or should I say women and men, as not to imply a male superiority? Why the hell should people go out of their way to be politically correct and use this "he/she" nonsense so a few chicks with language complexes won&#39;t be offended? Oops, I said "chicks". Damn.



I&#39;m pretty damn sick of hearing feminists ***** about men being paid more then women. If 100 male chemical engineers that worked for fortune 500 companies were compared to 100 female chemical engineers that worked for fortune 500 companies, their pay would probably be the same, if not very close. If it were not, then sexual discrimination would probably be a good candidate as to why it&#39;s not. The reason why women get paid less than men on average is because women and men simply prefer different occupations, and different lifestyles. If a woman decides to have a child, chances are that she would end up taking more time off from work to take care of her child than would a guy (if only for child labor alone). It&#39;s unfair, but usually the case. Women are usually more family oriented, and nurturing, while men are usually less sensitive and work oriented. All this is of course changing, but it&#39;s to be expected that women get paid less than men. If for example, pay for men in the armed forces was compared to pay for women in the armed forces, the men would probably swamp the women in pay comparison simply because of the militariy&#39;s past male domination & segregation policies. That does not necessarily imply the same segregation today.



I was minding my own business at school the other day when all of a sudden I was surrounded by screaming feminists. They had gnarled claws, horns, goat hoofs and made an unearthly hissing noise. They came out of a hole in the ground that led straight into hell where I could see Satan (Jenny Jones) directing her army. I thought I was done for when suddenly I remembered that I had a shotgun on me (with rounds of common sense).

The feminists started to advance towards me, in all their unshaved armpit infamy, preaching anti-male rhetoric and singing "I am woman hear me roar." One of them jumped at me with a two edged blade of double standards, but I counterattacked with a pile of "Get a job." This kept her occupied, but there were more. I took out my shotgun and blasted 10 or 20 of them, but they kept respawning faster than I could finish them off. It was almost as if they had a hidden energy source. Suddenly I noticed the source of all my problems: music coming out from the pit of hell&#33; It sounded like a mixture of Jewel, Celine Dion, Alanis Morissette and Loreena McKennitt all packed together for a mega dose of super suck.

I had to act quick before the effects of the shitty music would turn me into a permanent dumbass. So I grabbed my shotgun and jumped into the pit. I fell through all the levels of hell, each level conveniently marked with signs saying "Level 1: Expensive Trendy Clothing, Level 2: Dance Clubs For Sluts and Assholes.." etc. until finally I reached the last level where Jenny Jones herself resides. She immediately tried to give me a makeover, but I busted out a can of woop ass wrapped in a package of "Shut the hell up," which seemed to wound her ego. She tried and tried, but couldn&#39;t get me to conform. Finally she blew up like a zit, and that&#39;s the end of my feminist story. The moral of the story is that feminists are bad, evil people, and listening to too much shitty music will turn you into a dumbass. It&#39;s all true, I&#39;m right, go to hell.






Have you ever been driving around and you ask your woman to do something trivial and suddenly it turns into a civil rights movement? Why is everything a power struggle with women? I was driving around with my friend and his girlfriend the other day when he simply asked her to make a left turn, then she suddenly flipped out and started *****ing about being controlled. Good job moron, I&#39;m sure bull-dyke feminists everywhere are creaming their pants because of your political crusade against oppression, but there are certain times when taking a stand to prove your stupid point is inappropriate. Like when you&#39;re going to MISS THE TURN and make us late to the movie, you dumb *****&#33;

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 12:18 AM

If it where genetics then more poeple around the world would be fat.

I don&#39;t think you really undrstand genetics at all.
His point is that even though people can be genetically fat it does not mean that they can not change that by working out or by taking care of themselves. But of course making up an excuse is always easier then facing the real problem.

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by el_profe+Jan 18 2004, 07:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Jan 18 2004, 07:54 AM)
[email protected] 18 2004, 05:32 AM
Yes, it is society&#39;s "thin is in" image that makes big womyn appear to be ugly, even if they are not. When you look on a magazine there is always a thin model. When you go to a fashion show, the models are thin. Actresses are basically required to be thin. Sorry to break the news to you: but our society dictates what is beautiful and what is not. Years ago, Marilyn Monroe, a size 14/16 was considered to be sexy and graceful. Now adays, a woman who is a size 14/16 is considered to be fat, when the reality is that that is a normal size. This is why you believe "extremely fat people" to be repulsive- because you were taught to. You can deny it as much as you want, but its true.

And men dont just prefer a woman to weigh less- they are taught that this is what they want. Womyn are to be petite, while men are supposed to be buff---according to society. This is why when you look at magazine covers, actors, or even at a local gym you see men and womyn looking quite different, working towards different physical looks.




No i wasnt thaught not to like 200 lbs. women.
"In a magazine their is always a thin model" yes, cuase thats what men want to see, no one wants to see a 200lbs. with giantic stretchmarks.
Society dictates what is beutifull, yes, men and women of society dictate wats beutifull.
No extremely fat people are not repulsive because i was taught they where repulsive, they are repulsive because they wheigh more than me, they have a lot of Cellulitis and they have giantic stretchmarks.
If you think they are beautifull, good for you, Am I not entitled to my opinion?


And i never said that people were big because they were lazy. Once again you missed the point and decided to just put words in my mouth. Im going to try to explain this to you one more time, but in easier terms: only 8 percent of womyn around the world are naturally thin or the model type. The rest of us have to work at it because our genetic makeup did not make us naturally thin. Now, if people do not work out (not because they are lazy, but for other reasons- such as that they just dont want to, and they have every right to do so), unless you are part of the eight percent, you will gain weight. This applies to everyone, it applies to me, it applies to you, to everyone. While some of us decide to work out, others decide not to, while others do work out but get no results. Do you get it now? No where did i say they were lazy, so stop making stuff up. Once again-read what is actually there.

You hate feminists because of their constant persuit of equality? That is the most absurd thing i have ever heard. So do you hate the ARA (antiracist action) because of their constant persuit of racial equality? So i guess in your eyes all political groups that are in constant persuit of equality are bad, leading you to hate them. Really, couldnt you come up with a better excuse?

How are womyn not discriminated against in society. My goodness, what time period do you live in? Are you really that blind that you cannot see what is going on in the world around you? You want examples- how about the "feminization of poverty"? That is discriminatory. The fact that womyn still to this day only make 76 cents to every dollar that a man makes is discriminatory (this starts to change as you also look at it from a racial perspective- white womyn make more than black womyn who make more than hispanic womyn). The fact that a man who enters a "womans" field with less experience starts off making more and more chances for mobility. The fact that there is a constant debate about abortion is discriminatory- we have men making laws based on womyns bodies. The fact that health care covers Viagra, but not birth control is discriminatory. The fact that we still have gender roles in general is discriminatory. Should i continue? I think you have failed completely to see what discrimination is. It is more than just being treated equally. It has to do with laws, gender roles, stereotypes, etc.
Yes I hate antirascist organizations and feminist, because they over step there boundaries and thanks to them we live in this PC world, where you cant say shit without offending someone. And for your information i am a latin "minority" and i hate all the latin groups that fight for "equal" rights for latins, all they do is help create the PC world, and they try to pressutre everyone into doing things or else they will say that they are rascist. YOU MUST LOVE THE PC(polotically correct) WORLD WE LIVE IN, I bet you get mad when you see a "offensive" joke on tv.

women make less than men, so? each gets paid according to what they produce. There are women CEO&#39;s that get paid better than men.



And about those three womyn- they are beautiful. Im not fooling myself into believing they are beautiful. I truly feel they are. But i guess you wouldnt understand that since its not a shallow perspective. Im sorry i dont base my standards of beauty on weight or ethnicity, as you do.

Are you really this dense? How long will it take you to understand that feminists do not hate sex workers? If a certain group of feminists is against sex workers, they are not agains the sex workers themselves. They are against the work, they are against the system that supports this work, they are against the stereotypes (both sexist and racist) that are found in sex work, etc. Like i said- why dont you educate yourself on the subject before you jump in making ridiculous, uniformed remarks. If its about jealousy, than i take it that you must be jealous of feminists---otherwise you wouldnt have this hatred.
Shallow perspective? forgive me for not liking 200 lbs. women.
Feminist dont hate sex worker? I dont mean prostitutes, I mean pornstars and playmates and models.
What system supports this work? the men that buy the vidoes the magazines? [/b]
Exactly- because they weigh more than you you find them repulsive. THIS IS TAUGHT&#33;&#33;&#33; Its a part of gender roles that each one of us "plays" in society.

I doubt that you are latin. If you were latin you would understand what is happening in latin america and would want the situation to improve. But you obviously must benefit from the racism, therefore leading to the conclusion that you&#39;re white.

And yeah, I do get offended when i hear offensive jokes. I dont find jokes based on racist views, homophobia, and sexism funny at all. I take as much offense to it as i do when i get called a "spic." The fact that i have heart makes me caring and sympathetic to the position of others- something that you have obviously have never experienced and probably never will.

Once again- no the pay rate is not determined by the job you do, but by race and sex. Its been proven time and time again. Check the stats. People who do the same exact job do not get paid the same because their race and sex vary.


And sex workers are not just prostitutes- pornography actresses, exotic dancers, and prostitutes are all sex workers. They all work in an industry that sells sex, therefore making them sex workers. Get it?

Also, in regards to the sports divisions. The only reason that there are seperate leagues for men and womyn is because womyn were denied access to these sports and so had to form their own. Had they been allowed there would never have been the need to start seperate leagues. So its not a hypocritical thing at all. These leagues exist because they were left with no choice.

[synthesis]

I doubt that you are latin. If you were latin you would understand what is happening in latin america and would want the situation to improve. But you obviously must benefit from the racism, therefore leading to the conclusion that you&#39;re white.

That, or he&#39;s just a solipsist.

[Y2A]

Exactly- because they weigh more than you you find them repulsive.

Yes and......

We are male human beings damn it&#33; We find women that are truely sexy, attractive. You can&#39;t change that because you and only you feel it is "wrong".



I doubt that you are latin. If you were latin you would understand what is happening in latin america and would want the situation to improve. But you obviously must benefit from the racism, therefore leading to the conclusion that you&#39;re white.

He is hispanic, and I believe he grew up in a barrio(like myself) but I&#39;m not 100% sure about that.

[Soul Rebel]

Y2A- im not saying that its necessarily wrong. What im saying is that we learn these things. We learn to accept certain body types while rejecting others. You can see this pattern throughout history- look at how what is considered beautiful has changed. See what im saying? If it wasnt learned and it was completely innate then the image of beauty would never change. Same thing with sexiness, we have been taught what it means to be sexy, how to be sexy, and what to find sexy. For example, growing up the way i did i find men who are highly intelligent and political to be sexy. I have learned to adore men with long hair as well, because of what i was exposed to. Its all a matter of learning.

And im not the only one that thinks this or that big womyn or men can beautiful- for crying out loud, look around you- there are skinny and hot people dating big people, so obviously they are beautiful in some way. They can be beautiful and are but we are taught to think they are not.

I really wish that both you and el_profe would see the points im making rather than just going around them completely.

P.S.- once again, i accidently wrote my post inside of yours, so i had to remove it.

[Y2A]

Why do you get offended by jokes based on race?

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 02:46 AM
Why do you get offended by jokes based on race?
Because they are based on stereotypes and are quite hurtful and are basically intended to be hurtful (even if the joke teller isnt aware of it), but its not just with race, but with sex and sexuality as well. You have to understand- i have a great sense of humor and am a wiseass, but not at the expense of others. I draw the line somewhere.

P.S.- i take it that the comment in the thread about lokars title was directed at me? The one saying that we have a sense of humor as long as it has nothing to do with r/c/g, etc.? :P

[Y2A]

Jokes based on humor hurt no one but the ultra-sensative. I grew up in a black/hispanic neighborhood i.e a ghetto :) , and I&#39;ve always joked with my black friends using race-based humor and they have done the same to me, so what is the problem with that?

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 07:28 AM
Fat is not based on genetics. If it where genetics then more poeple around the world would be fat.
Your only solution to getting thiner is diet? no working out works better and healthier.
We live in the Victim Era. everyone is a victim, there not fat because of their fault (some arent but most are), they get bad grades and dont pay attention in class so they must have attention deficit disorder. You even see this with killers, he killed because he had a tough childhood. This is all bs, we(society) are eliminating personal responsibility.

Metabolism and genetics determins what type of body your going to have, skinny, medium build or shaq. It does not make you fat.
Everyone inherits a certain quantity of adipose cells. They become bigger when you get more "energy". Some people has a tendency to get fat. Of course all this is influded by the diet and the activities of each individual. So yeah, it&#39;s not necesarilly based on genetics. They say there are 3 different types of body: ectomorphs, mesomorphs and endomorphs, each has different characteristics. I don&#39;t believe that too much but to a point it&#39;s true.

Concerning the "personal responsibility", you may be right in something, however there are examples that proove this is wrong: if a young couple is having sex and their condom breaks, and the girl gets pregnant, who is the responsible? Are you going to face that, let&#39;s say, the condom had bad quality, or are you going to blame the kid because his dick broke it or to both for fucking?
And can you blame a poor person for being fat if he doesn&#39;t even have money to pay for a gym?

deus ex machina:


People who live in cold climates have adapted over the years a low metabolism which, when exposed to the high fat diets of the modern West, often causes these people to become obese.

Not only those diets are "high fat diets", they are also "high carb diets". Don&#39;t forget that.

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 03:15 AM
Jokes based on humor hurt no one but the ultra-sensative. I grew up in a black/hispanic neighborhood i.e a ghetto :) , and I&#39;ve always joked with my black friends using race-based humor and they have done the same to me, so what is the problem with that?
Nawh- i dont think its about being ultrasensitive. Im definitely not ultrasensitive, im just very sympathetic. I moved to a town that is basically all white and rich when i was like six or seven years old (before that i lived in a town that was getting increasingly violent because of gangs, so of course my parents took off). We were like the only people around that were considered to be a minority, until recently when more and more mexicans started moving in, which is awesome. But anyways, my bro and i went to an all white school as well. Being the outcast (for many different reasons), i saw how these people treated others. I also heard many, many racist jokes, which were extremely cruel. It was sickening to see this. Also, having had experiences with racism- being called a spic (by a friends father, who also called by best friend a brownie; an exboyfriend; a boy on the block; at school, etc.) and watching friends go through it- makes me sympathetic.

And i see where you are coming from, but there is a difference when joking with friends and then saying jokes that you know or should know are harmful, know what i mean? Like, my boss and i, as well as my brother, always used to make fun of each other based on stereotypes, but for fun. We knew they stereotypes and were laughing at them. Like i would call my boss "crackah" and she would laugh hysterically. And she would do the same to me. Or my friends would tease me about the stereotypes that exist about spanish people, especially galicians, but its not meant to be hurtful.

Tehe...i might of has well been still living in a barrio because i have always tended to hang out there and my friends usually are from a barrior around here and i go to college in an area of barrios (i go to college in one of the poorest cities in the nation, which also has the highest STD rates, while living in the richest state in the nation- crazy shit huh?) But anyways.... :rolleyes:

[Don't Change Your Name]

But back to the point of this thread, I believe that some feminist ideas are good, however I distrust those "feminists" that want to create "nice guys" to buy them things and threat them like stupid friends, and those who become so obsessed that they leave the basic ideas of their struggle and start becoming the stereotype. I fear some "feminists" actually want to revert the old "women are property" system...and take over the world.
I think that they should fight for equality and breaking the stereotypical roles of men and women.

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by El Infiltr(A)[email protected] 19 2004, 03:43 AM
But back to the point of this thread, I believe that some feminist ideas are good, however I distrust those "feminists" that want to create "nice guys" to buy them things and threat them like stupid friends, and those who become so obsessed that they leave the basic ideas of their struggle and start becoming the stereotype. I fear some "feminists" actually want to revert the old "women are property" system...and take over the world.
I think that they should fight for equality and breaking the stereotypical roles of men and women.
Hmmm...yeah...see that wouldnt be a feminist. That would be a girl who calls herself a feminist to justify what she is doing (making me buy her stuff). That has nothing at all to do with feminism. These womyn just give us a bad name. What also gives us a bad name are people who say they are feminists without knowing what it is because they think its cool. People who constantly repeat stereotypes about feminists also give us a bad name.

Tell me, what exactly do you mean by "those who become so obsessed that they leave the basic ideas of their struggle and start becoming the stereotype?" Ive seen many feminists (including myself) through tons of events, gatherings, lectures, etc. who are extremely militant but dont fill the stereotypes. I think the only one i fill is that i dont wear a bra or any kind of underwear, but it has nothing to do with feminism. It has to do with me being comfortable...

feminists have always been fighting for inequality and to break stereotypes for men and womyn. but these arent the only things they deal with. there is so much more to feminism- like fighting racism, agism, homophobia, classism, etc. the issues feminists are fighting are many.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 03:53 AM
Hmmm...yeah...see that wouldnt be a feminist. That would be a girl who calls herself a feminist to justify what she is doing (making me buy her stuff). That has nothing at all to do with feminism. These womyn just give us a bad name. What also gives us a bad name are people who say they are feminists without knowing what it is because they think its cool. People who constantly repeat stereotypes about feminists also give us a bad name.
That&#39;s why I wrote "feminists" instead of feminists

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 01:12 AM
Exactly- because they weigh more than you you find them repulsive. THIS IS TAUGHT&#33;&#33;&#33; Its a part of gender roles that each one of us "plays" in society.







? gender roles, no I dont like fat women because: they have strchmarks, cellulitis and have their stomach hanging down to there knees. Know one taught me not to like that. Are you going to say society teaches us not to like blcak women? :lol: :lol: :lol: Listen some people (most) just dont like fat people, that it, it has nothing to do with being shallow its just what each one likes.
I have a question for you, are you fat?


I doubt that you are latin. If you were latin you would understand what is happening in latin america and would want the situation to improve. But you obviously must benefit from the racism, therefore leading to the conclusion that you&#39;re white.
yes I am, lived 18 years in latin america and still visit. How the hell did you get to the conclusion i am white?Im not white. YES I DO BENEFIT FROM REVERSE RASCISM, I can easily get more scholarships because i am a "stupid" minority. :lol: :lol: :lol:


I want to improve latin america more than you do.


And yeah, I do get offended when i hear offensive jokes. I dont find jokes based on racist views, homophobia, and sexism funny at all. I take as much offense to it as i do when i get called a "spic." The fact that i have heart makes me caring and sympathetic to the position of others- something that you have obviously have never experienced and probably never will.
in that case you need to get a sense of HUMOR, ITs people like you who ***** all day that has created this PC world we live in If somoen makes a joke about latins, if its funny i laugh and i dont find it offensive, because i know its comedy. Most of the time people making the "offensive" jokes ae people from taht same race or gender. DONT YOU GET IT, ITS COMEDY, Get a sense of humor.



Also, in regards to the sports divisions. The only reason that there are seperate leagues for men and womyn is because womyn were denied access to these sports and so had to form their own. Had they been allowed there would never have been the need to start seperate leagues. So its not a hypocritical thing at all. These leagues exist because they were left with no choice.
The only reason? so the reaosn had nothing to do with ability? You want women playing in the NFl, nba, in futbol, hockey? WHY DOES THE LPGA NOT ALLOW A MAN to play but the PGA does?
So you think there is women good enough to play with men in soccer? , so serena williams can beat roger federer? so a women boxer can beat shane mosley? so annika sorenstam can beat tiger woods? NO, women have their own leagues because they cant physically compete with men, cause men are stronger, taller and faster thats just the way it is. This does not mean men are better than women.



Once again- no the pay rate is not determined by the job you do, but by race and sex. Its been proven time and time again. Check the stats. People who do the same exact job do not get paid the same because their race and sex vary.
No it has not been proven time and time again, Women work different jobs and most work less hours, I dont see men *****ing about models making so much money (i bet you do ***** about that) for just walking or taking pictures.

p.s. anyone here sees family guy? if you do, do you find that show offensive?

[monkeydust]

For once I actually sort of agree with El_profe

I find that if a jokes made in a friendly manner then it does a lot less damage than awkwardly trying to avoid our differences. I might make a joke with a black friend but he would understand the intention. Political correctness is almost counter-productive in that a seems to create a kind of &#39;awkwardness&#39; it&#39;s hard to be informal and open if you can&#39;t make casual jokes.

Having said that, if you know someone&#39;s gona take it the wrong way, don&#39;t do it.

[Rasta Sapian]

Can u feel the love in this place?

Regardless of color, body type etc. people r people, treat others the way you would like to be treated, both friends and neibors&#33; yeeahh :)

Senora, you know that you are beutifull, don&#39;t forget it&#33;

peace yall

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by el_profe+Jan 19 2004, 04:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Jan 19 2004, 04:48 AM)
[email protected] 19 2004, 01:12 AM
Exactly- because they weigh more than you you find them repulsive. THIS IS TAUGHT&#33;&#33;&#33; Its a part of gender roles that each one of us "plays" in society.








? gender roles, no I dont like fat women because: they have strchmarks, cellulitis and have their stomach hanging down to there knees. Know one taught me not to like that. Are you going to say society teaches us not to like blcak women? :lol: :lol: :lol: Listen some people (most) just dont like fat people, that it, it has nothing to do with being shallow its just what each one likes.
I have a question for you, are you fat?


I doubt that you are latin. If you were latin you would understand what is happening in latin america and would want the situation to improve. But you obviously must benefit from the racism, therefore leading to the conclusion that you&#39;re white.
yes I am, lived 18 years in latin america and still visit. How the hell did you get to the conclusion i am white?Im not white. YES I DO BENEFIT FROM REVERSE RASCISM, I can easily get more scholarships because i am a "stupid" minority. :lol: :lol: :lol:


I want to improve latin america more than you do.


And yeah, I do get offended when i hear offensive jokes. I dont find jokes based on racist views, homophobia, and sexism funny at all. I take as much offense to it as i do when i get called a "spic." The fact that i have heart makes me caring and sympathetic to the position of others- something that you have obviously have never experienced and probably never will.
in that case you need to get a sense of HUMOR, ITs people like you who ***** all day that has created this PC world we live in If somoen makes a joke about latins, if its funny i laugh and i dont find it offensive, because i know its comedy. Most of the time people making the "offensive" jokes ae people from taht same race or gender. DONT YOU GET IT, ITS COMEDY, Get a sense of humor.



Also, in regards to the sports divisions. The only reason that there are seperate leagues for men and womyn is because womyn were denied access to these sports and so had to form their own. Had they been allowed there would never have been the need to start seperate leagues. So its not a hypocritical thing at all. These leagues exist because they were left with no choice.
The only reason? so the reaosn had nothing to do with ability? You want women playing in the NFl, nba, in futbol, hockey? WHY DOES THE LPGA NOT ALLOW A MAN to play but the PGA does?
So you think there is women good enough to play with men in soccer? , so serena williams can beat roger federer? so a women boxer can beat shane mosley? so annika sorenstam can beat tiger woods? NO, women have their own leagues because they cant physically compete with men, cause men are stronger, taller and faster thats just the way it is. This does not mean men are better than women.



Once again- no the pay rate is not determined by the job you do, but by race and sex. Its been proven time and time again. Check the stats. People who do the same exact job do not get paid the same because their race and sex vary.
No it has not been proven time and time again, Women work different jobs and most work less hours, I dont see men *****ing about models making so much money (i bet you do ***** about that) for just walking or taking pictures.

p.s. anyone here sees family guy? if you do, do you find that show offensive?



[/b]
no, im not fat. its really hard to become fat when vegan. but i shouldnt even answer that question because it is irrelevant. i dont need to be black or hispanic or asian or anything to fight racism, so why the need for me to be fat to defend them?

Yeah, i doubt that you want to improve latin america more than me. I cant stop laughing because of the thought of you actually believing you want to do more. Tell me, what have you done to help improve the situation or at least to support your beliefs in wanting to improve latin america?


Like i said, i do have a sense of humor. Its just not at the expense of others. And did you even bother to read the post i made about racial jokes? I explained myself quite clearly in my second post to Y2A about that, but once again, you missed the point. If anyone here should be getting anything, it should be you- some intelligence and a heart.

Do you understand even your own posts? You said womyn cannot compete with men, therefore meaning that men are better. You said it yourself so dont try to deny it at the end of the post.

For fucking crying outloud. WHEN MEN ENTER A "WOMAN&#39;S" PROFESSION THEY AUTOMATICALLY GET PAID HIGHER AND HAVE MORE CHANCES FOR MOBILITY QUICKER THAN WOMAN WHO HAVE BEEN THERE FOR YEARS&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; Its really not that hard of a concept to understand. Look at the nursing field and teaching.

And dont you fucking tell me what i ***** about. You have no clue. From what i see, you are too simple minded to ever understand the issues that i find important.

yeah, i actually watch the family guy and find it funny, but then again you will probably ignore this to come up with your own conclusions about how i feel about things.



This is to Left- did you read the post i made to Y2A, i explained myself about the whole racial joke- the difference between those making jokes? I pretty much said what you just said.


Thanks Rasta Sapien :rolleyes:

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Well, I am for equal treatment of men and women, but NO special treatment for women at all, equal pay, equal rights, thats all fine and dandy, but make women register for the draft, make them not have complete authority over "their" children, take away single gender sports, and de-segregate everything, bathrooms, prisons, everything, then I&#39;ll be happy. If they don&#39;t like it that&#39;s too damn bad. It might sound harsh, but its the only way to end sexism once and for all.

[Soul Rebel]

Tehe...its actually funny that you mention desegregating bathrooms. It will never happen because people want their "privacy." This is actually why the ERA never passed because people were terrified about men and womyn sharing bathrooms. Now, my question is this- do people have seperate bathrooms at home, one for females and one for males? If you can use a bathroom at home with the opposite sex, then why not do it in public.

And sexism will not end with desegregation. Just like racism did not end with desegregation. The only way that sexism, along with racism, homophobia, agism, etc. is with the destruction of capitalism. Capitalism is supported by these things, it strives off of them. Also, without doing away with racism you cannot do away with sexism because they interlock---they create unique experiences of oppression for each person and group. Sexism means different things for different groups of people- sexism that a white woman suffers is not the same as the sexism experienced and suffered by a black woman. All forms of -isms need each other. Its the concept of intersectionality.

Also, equality does not mean treating people exactly the same. Equality in society is about not discriminating against people because of their gender, but respecting the minor differences that do exist (such as the ability to get pregnant) and working around these differences.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Well, aside from getting pregnent, I maintain the a man can do anything a woman can do and vice-versa. Furthermore, I figured capitalism in some way the cause of everything, so obviously there is no need to add that in there. However, destruction of capitalism alone will not solve the problem, thats where progressive social measures do the trick. Equality DOES mean treating everyone the same, otherwise, it simply isn&#39;t equal.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 03:12 AM

no, im not fat. its really hard to become fat when vegan. but i shouldnt even answer that question because it is irrelevant. i dont need to be black or hispanic or asian or anything to fight racism, so why the need for me to be fat to defend them?

Yeah, i doubt that you want to improve latin america more than me. I cant stop laughing because of the thought of you actually believing you want to do more. Tell me, what have you done to help improve the situation or at least to support your beliefs in wanting to improve latin america?





You doubt I want to improve latin america? Fuck you. I lived there i see how bad people have it and I want to change that. I doubt that you ever been to latin america. You know nothing about latin america so shut the fuck up.


Like i said, i do have a sense of humor. Its just not at the expense of others. And did you even bother to read the post i made about racial jokes? I explained myself quite clearly in my second post to Y2A about that, but once again, you missed the point. If anyone here should be getting anything, it should be you- some intelligence and a heart.
even if the jokes are made by comedians? or how about when latin make fun of latins I laught, you probably would like to kill the comedian. that is why you need to get a sense of humor.

I also read your other post and it seems you hate white people , how racist of you, hypocrite. You also called me white, as if white was abad thing, hypocrite.
I also noticed a lot of rescentment cause you where an "outcast" you know why you where an outcast? not those kids you hated, you made yourself an outcast and somehow decided to blame does "white" kids for you being an outcast and hating high school. Your feminism and your communist ideas are fueled by rescentment, which is emotion, you cant be driven by emotion in life. YOu didnt analyze things and ended up saying, communism is better, you are just a mad "outcast" that hates men and wanted to go against "mainstream" so you decided to become a communist. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Do you understand even your own posts? You said womyn cannot compete with men, therefore meaning that men are better. You said it yourself so dont try to deny it at the end of the post.
most men are better than women in sports, does that bother you? unless you see sports as the thing that defines a human being, then that probably does bother you? IF youre a good sports athlete it does not mean your a good human being, apparently you cant see the difference


For fucking crying outloud. WHEN MEN ENTER A "WOMAN&#39;S" PROFESSION THEY AUTOMATICALLY GET PAID HIGHER AND HAVE MORE CHANCES FOR MOBILITY QUICKER THAN WOMAN WHO HAVE BEEN THERE FOR YEARS&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; Its really not that hard of a concept to understand. Look at the nursing field and teaching.
Not true, how about that IRL race car driver that is a women, she earns more than some of the men do. What you say about teachers is bs, if somone is a better teacher they get paid more, thats the bottom line.


yeah, i actually watch the family guy and find it funny, but then again you will probably ignore this to come up with your own conclusions about how i feel about things.
cool, that is one of my favorites shows.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 07:34 AM
Not true, how about that IRL race car driver that is a women, she earns more than some of the men do. What you say about teachers is bs, if somone is a better teacher they get paid more, thats the bottom line.

QUOTE
yeah, i actually watch the family guy and find it funny, but then again you will probably ignore this to come up with your own conclusions about how i feel about things.

cool, that is one of my favorites shows.
"they get paid more, thats the bottom line." Prove it. What messures how they should be paid? How the hell do you know what they deserve to be paid? What are you? god? If not, you don&#39;t know that people get what they deserve. How does this magical system work anyway? Does the teacherfairy give the better teachers brownie points? I&#39;ve had some really shitty teachers and guess what, I&#39;m betting they still got paid even thought they should have gotten thrown out on their asses. So in short, you are the one here that is full of shit.