Opinions on the Kurdistan Workers Party

[Comrade Jacob]

Just want to hear your thoughts.


*on

[Sasha]

i think more people know what you talk about if you use the more common abbreviation PKK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party

anyways, as national liberation organizations come this, together with the EZNL, is one i feel most close too. probably in part because many kurdish people actually live here and as such there are social contacts between PKK supporters and the autonomous movement here (and even more so in germany). but even without that they seem one of the more egalitarian, non-sectarian "marxist" nationalist armed groups out there. there used to be good contacts with tamils (tigers), basque (eta & segi), irish (ira & inla) and turkish (dev-sol/dhkcp) too but its very uncommon to still find people here in the movement that still keeps warm feelings for those groups, maybe a bit still with segi but the rest turned away from us and we from them. With the PKK umfeld we still fight together against the greywolves etc, they come to our demo's and we to theirs, we still campaign for free turkistan and sometimes people that i used to know socially still suddenly disappear into the mountains.

and last but not least, while sometimes also sounding a bit opportunist it seems that the party/movement is at least not stuck in rigid dogmatism either, their flirts with bookchin (http://libcom.org/forums/middle-east/pkk-political-evolution-17082012) and autonomism are certainly more interesting than those groups still carrying pictures of leila khaled at best and stalin at worst around

[Tim Cornelis]

The PKK and the Kurdish question is too complex to reduce to a simple "support" or "oppose". I lend, at least, critical support to any movement that builds independent working class politics or organs of workers' power. I oppose the 'people's war' strategy as it formerly upheld on the basis that it does not create workers' power -- and is quite idealist for that matter. Since circa 2005 the PKK and its sister organisations in Kurdistan have, more nominally than actually, embraced (what revleft user Devrim called) second-hand anarchist rhetoric. Namely an ideological framework known as democratic confederalism based on Bookchin's writings, which is to be a stateless, post-capitalist society to be put immediately into effect (no transitional workers' state). However, the transition from a top-down Marxist-Leninist movement to a decentralised grassroots movement has not been very successful, especially because the movement's paradigm had to shift because the leader's paradigm shifted. (following a leader into anarchism is not a solid basis for anarchism). Moreover, this democratic confederalist paradigm is a bourgeois-socialist paradigm which is very problematic.

There have been some reports of grassroots democracy being put into effect (met with a crackdown of hundreds of journalists, activists, and politicians by the Turkish state branding them "terrorists"). However, the Syrian KCK-member, PYD, has been gradually shifting towards more of the bourgeois than the socialism of their implicit bourgeois-socialist paradigm.

I don't support the PKK when it was still called the PKK for its bourgeois-socialism (Marxism-Leninism), idealism, anti-working class assaults, suicide bombings, cult of personality, and lack of workers' power. The reincarnated PKK I support moderately and highly critically. I support them insofar their create organs of workers' power, which it has only done so much.

[Red_Banner]

From what I've heard from talking online with people from that region, the PKK isn't really pro-commy.


Does anybody know weather Syria's Democratic Union Party is pro-leftist or not?

[Paul Pott]

They are broadly a left-wing nationalist group. Kurdish national liberation is a progressive cause, so revolutionaries should support this group on that basis.

Ideologically, they are quite eclectic, so the best possible result if they achieve their goals is a Kurdish bourgeois democracy.

[Paul Pott]

Does anybody know weather Syria's Democratic Union Party is pro-leftist or not?


I was under the impression the Democratic Union Party was a close ally of and was modeled after the PKK.

[Tim Cornelis]

The PYD is a constituent member of the Koma Civaken Kurdistan, a confederation of communities that are meant to be self-governing. They try to implement democratic confederalism through the TEV-DEM (Movement for Democratic Change), which consists of the PYD, civil organisations, women's and cultural houses, and 'corporate' groups. But they have been gravitating toward a more conventional liberal democratic approach with the Kurdish National Council. There doesn't appear to be a real conviction or understanding behind their professing of democratic confederalism, and seem to superficially uphold it because Öcalan articulated it.

[Red_Banner]

I was under the impression the Democratic Union Party was a close ally of and was modeled after the PKK.


Peoples Protection Units which is apparently their armed wing seems to be modeled on a Leninist militia to some extent.

[Tim Cornelis]

Peoples Protection Units which is apparently their armed wing seems to be modeled on a Leninist militia to some extent.

What is a "Leninist militia"? The YPG claims to elect its officers, yes, but so do anarchist and other socialist or leftist militias (e.g. EZLN).

[Red_Banner]

What is a "Leninist militia"? The YPG claims to elect its officers, yes, but so do anarchist and other socialist or leftist militias (e.g. EZLN).

Sorry if I am excluding other leftist ideas on the militia, but the Leninist, Trotskyist, and Maoist ideas on it are the ones I am most familiar with.

The thing is, the PKK which it is related to has it's roots from Marxism and Maoism.

[Skyhilist]

I'd like them though I'd like them more if they were less nationalistic.

It's understandable why they'd end up nationalist though... nationalism is often the end result of conflict surrounding embattled (e.g. the Kurdish) unfortunately.

So I guess I'd say I support them, but critically and not unconditionally.

[Skyhilist]

Actually upon just now reading something very discouraging I don't think I can even give them critical support, if what I read is true.

From the wikipedia page on them:

"According to a survey conducted by a graduate student at Ankara University, the organization used children within its militant force.[82][need quotation to verify] 86% percent of whom had joined the organization to bolster their families incomes following offers that it would provide for their families in return.[81] All of the new recruits reported that these offers were not fulfilled.[81] 80% of those surveyed also reported that they had actively stopped other family members—usually younger brothers—from joining the organization too.[81] 60% of those surveyed had an education level below high school level.[81] When asked why they stayed in the organization, two thirds stated that they were afraid of facing reprisals. They also feared for the safety of their families, who would be at risk as well.[81] Five percent said that they feared punishment by the Republic of Turkey.[81]"

Is this true?

[Sasha]

Sounds like bull, most people I spoke to that joined where female and they chose the mountains to escape forced marriage but all did so voluntarily and still stand by that decision even if they now left the party because they politically progressed.

[Leo]

Many women do indeed chose the mountains to escape forced marriage, incredibly oppressive and reactionary family structures and worse, it is true. This is not to say that what they go through in the mountains is in any way positive.

Most European leftists have a hard time understanding the Kurdish question or the PKK, and are quick to buy the PKK's rather ridiculous rhetoric about being a libertarian organization which is for the liberation of everyone, above all women. The reality of the PKK, which promotes a cult of personality as strong as any one can think of, which has a history of countless internal executions and which has practices towards woman guerillas which can only cynically be described as anything libertarian, either remains unknown or is ignored.

This article (http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201304/7373/internationalism-only-response-kurdish-issue) would be a good start for anyone who wants to go beyond PKK propaganda.

[khad]

You people might as well throw your support behind the KLA or los Zetas. What a ridiculous thread.

[Paul Pott]

Well, I still haven't seen anything to suggest the PKK is equivalent to a right-wing Albanian paramilitary and a Mexican drug cartel.

[khad]

Well, I still haven't seen anything to suggest the PKK is equivalent to a right-wing Albanian paramilitary and a Mexican drug cartel.
http://www.academia.edu/1537217/How_accurate_is_it_to_descirbe_the_PKK_as_a_narcot errorist_organisation

[Sasha]

Did you even read the article? It argues against your point.
Yes, they tax and are probably involved in the heroin trade. They do the same with gasoline smuggle.
Do you know any group be it a legal nation or not that doesn't tax the high profit trade and the rich in the area under their control? Don't the Cubans and didn't the USSR control the alcohol trade in their countries?

[Skyhilist]

Sorry not to derail the current argument about the KWP drug trade, but does anyone have any empirical evidence (as opposed to conjecture) to counter sources suggesting their use of child soldiers?

[khad]

Did you even read the article? It argues against your point.
Yes, they tax and are probably involved in the heroin trade. They do the same with gasoline smuggle.
Do you know any group be it a legal nation or not that doesn't tax the high profit trade and the rich in the area under their control? Don't the Cubans and didn't the USSR control the alcohol trade in their countries?
I'm betting you're the one who didn't read the article. Mere taxation?


The writing of Pek and Ekici (2007) provide a descriptive outline of a report that analyzed narcoterrorist cases in Turkey by a project initiated in 2003, run by the Anti Smuggling and Organized crime (KOM). The study provides proof that the PKK had taken part in five different categories, taxing and extortion, cultivation and production, trafficking, street delivery and money laundering of money through MED TV, the first Kurdish television station (ibid). Heroin is transported via the Balkan route to its export venue in Europe, the link between Afghanistan and European countries goes through Turkey (Ekici, nd: 2) this is where the role of the PKK is dominant.
On the other hand, as mentioned the majority of scholars state that involvement in narcotics classifies the organization as narcoterrorist as there is substantial evidence that the organization uses the drug money to fund its terrorist organization. Looking briefly into Makarenko’s framework it is possible to classify the PKK as both a narcoterrorist and a criminal organisation.

[Leo]

but does anyone have any empirical evidence (as opposed to conjecture) to counter sources suggesting their use of child soldiers?

Well, it depends on what one understands from child. No, the PKK does not have child soldiers as in ten year olds running around with machine guns. They do have members who are teenagers but then again in rural Kurdistan and even in some parts of urban Kurdistan, a teenager is considered to be old enough to get married and have children. The PKK does have thousands of sympathizers who are little kids though, however they throw rocks at the police rather than use machine guns.

[Sasha]

I'm betting you're the one who didn't read the article.

i did, though you didnt even make it trough the whole introduction it seems

The sixth section will challenge the mainstream literature and argue due topolitical motivates the PKK it is inaccurate to classify the PKK as a narcoterrorist group, [...], and before concluding the essay will briefly highlight the way Turkey uses the termssuch as Narcoterrorism as a propaganda to wage its violence


Mere taxation?

I already said they are probably involved in it beyond taxation, but again, what makes the PKK making money on heroin smuggle to europe worse than selling hard liquor or morphine to your own citizens? Illegal organizations are going to have illegal revenue to fund their struggle. now of course I am more partial to anarchist bankrobbers but a. they yield not enough to support an organization like the PKK and b. not really enough banks in Kurdistan anyway now are there? What they do have, smuggle routes, lots of smuggle routes. probably by a distance the size of kurdistan itself the no 1 source of revenue for the area since as long as the history books go back. I rather have them extorting heroin traders than small farmers. Stop being a idealist moralist.

[Skyhilist]

Well, it depends on what one understands from child. No, the PKK does not have child soldiers as in ten year olds running around with machine guns. They do have members who are teenagers but then again in rural Kurdistan and even in some parts of urban Kurdistan, a teenager is considered to be old enough to get married and have children. The PKK does have thousands of sympathizers who are little kids though, however they throw rocks at the police rather than use machine guns.

Ah alright I suppose that accounts for that then.

So it's sort of like a country where the age of adulthood was 21 would technically consider the US to have child soldiers approved in the armed forces, even though since the US has an age of adulthood of 18 we'd obviously deny that? That makes sense then.

The only problem I still have is this: "When asked why they stayed in the organization, two thirds stated that they were afraid of facing reprisals. They also feared for the safety of their families, who would be at risk as well."


I mean obviously if they're libertarian socialists the mentality shouldn't be "don't leave or you any your family will get hurt."

[khad]

I said they are probably involved in too, but again, what makes trading heroin worse than trading hard liquor or morphine? Illegal organizations are going to have illegal revenue to fund their struggle. now of course I am more partial to anarchist bankrobbers but a. They yield not enough to support an organisation like the PKK and b. Not enough banks in Kurdistan. What they do have, smuggle routes. I rather have them extorting heroin dealers than small farmers. Stop being a idealist moralist.

You must have missed the part where they're not just involved in cultivation and production but street distribution as well, through expat networks.

And guess who is harmed by the illict trade in heroin and other hard drugs?

I'm sorry I'm moralist enough to give a shit about the working class instead that cult leader Ocalan's treasury.


Not that Ocalan himself hasn't been as open as he could've been in his own speeches, texts, books, declarations and so on and so forth over the years. In a book written by him in 1992 titled Cozumleme, Talimat ve Perspektifler (Analyses, Orders and Perspectives), he stated: “These girls mentioned. I don't know, I have relations with thousands of them. I don't care how anyone understands it. If I've gotten close with some of them, how should this have been? (…) On these subjects, they leave aside all the real measurements and find someone and gossip, say 'this was attempted to be done to me here' or 'this was done to me there'! These shameless women both want to give too much and then develop such things. Some of the people mentioned. Good grace! They say 'we need it so, it would be very good' and then this gossip is developed (…) I'm saying it openly again. This is the sort of warrior I am. I love girls a lot, I value them a lot. I love all of them. I try to turn every girl into a lover, in an unbelievable level, to the point of passion. I try to shape them from their physique to their soul, to their thoughts. I see it in myself to fulfill this task. I define myself openly. If you find me dangerous, don't get close!”

[MarxEngelsLeninStalinMao]

I support the Kurdistan Workers' Party because every nation has it's right to self-determination. That is the only reason why I support them now when they have given up Marxism-Leninism and Maoism in the name of Democratic Confederalism.

[Sasha]

Ah alright I suppose that accounts for that then.

So it's sort of like a country where the age of adulthood was 21 would technically consider the US to have child soldiers approved in the armed forces, even though since the US has an age of adulthood of 18 we'd obviously deny that? That makes sense then.

The only problem I still have is this: "When asked why they stayed in the organization, two thirds stated that they were afraid of facing reprisals. They also feared for the safety of their families, who would be at risk as well."


I mean obviously if they're libertarian socialists the mentality shouldn't be "don't leave or you any your family will get hurt."

the dutch AFA wikipedia says we are extremists that are in part run by the secretservice and all other kinds of bull, that something is souced doesnt say that its true.
i cant read the source article as its in turkish but i hardly assume a grad student from ankara university would be allowed to write anything with an other conclusion than that the PKK are monsters. you know what the turkish state does to even established respected academics that go against the official line on the kurdish and armenian questions? you lose your position at the minimum and could well be jailed or even shot to death like Hrant Dink was.

[Misericordia]

Neat quotes from the PKK's don, Abdullah Ocalan:

This is just propaganda. It is not possible for us to be communists. Why did the Soviet Union collapse and the United States has not? It is because communism made
the government everything, but the human being nothing. The United States represents
development.
Öcalan: Barzani and Talabani are like feet or arms, but I am the main head or mind. The United States should speak with me, the mind. I have twenty-five years of experience.

Of course, we would like the world to support us. If the United States were objective, it must have a moral code, a sense of honor, and support us
The United States is a great power. It is a very objective country, but it does not have positive knowledge about us
Recent German willingness finally to talk to the PKK is a good model. But Germany does not see itself as having an international role; the United States is the main protagonist. A dialogue between the United States and the Kurds is most important, and it should begin sooner rather than later. It would open the way to a most important change in U.S. policy.And that's just from one short 1998 interview.

The PKK and it's pimp-in-charge are a mafia-like criminal enterprise which masks itself behind red flags and fools Western suckers with sweet words about "libertarianism".

And psycho(very fitting username, only a sociopath would defend heroin traffickers and at the same time claim to be a socialist, you piece of human garbage, heroin has destroyed the lives of millions of proletarians), Hrant Dink's assassin was given a 23 year prison sentence. The man who solicited the murder of Dink was given a life sentence. Don't assume everybody else is an idiot who can't fact-check.

[Tim Cornelis]

The PKK and it's pimp-in-charge are a mafia-like criminal enterprise which masks itself behind red flags and fools Western suckers with sweet words about "libertarianism".

And psycho(very fitting username, only a sociopath would defend heroin traffickers and at the same time claim to be a socialist, you piece of human garbage, heroin has destroyed the lives of millions of proletarians), Hrant Dink's assassin was given a 23 year prison sentence. The man who solicited the murder of Dink was given a life sentence. Don't assume everybody else is an idiot who can't fact-check.

The reduction of movements like FARC and PKK to narcoterrorists is ridiculously simplistic, and wrong for that matter. If this were true it would make no sense of them to uphold political aims, for the FARC to negotiate 'social justice' (e.g. land reform) or for the PKK to abandon 'people's war' in favour of grassroots organising. Moreover, blaming drugs is blaming symptoms. It's the social conditions that lead to drug abuse, not drug use leading to impoverished social conditions. The conservative approach of fighting drugs, whether done by the US government or one of the IRA offshoots is fundamentally flawed.

[Remus Bleys]

I find it a tiny bit odd that Psycho supports the PKK.
Considering all the anti-natlib and ridiculing of anti-imperialism.

[Red_Banner]

Ah alright I suppose that accounts for that then.

So it's sort of like a country where the age of adulthood was 21 would technically consider the US to have child soldiers approved in the armed forces, even though since the US has an age of adulthood of 18 we'd obviously deny that? That makes sense then.

The only problem I still have is this: "When asked why they stayed in the organization, two thirds stated that they were afraid of facing reprisals. They also feared for the safety of their families, who would be at risk as well."


I mean obviously if they're libertarian socialists the mentality shouldn't be "don't leave or you any your family will get hurt."


The Geneva Conventions ok having soldiers as young as 15.


The SFRY for example had them.