That New Pope

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I like him, he is a welcome breath of fresh air to a dying organization. I hope those ultra conservative american parts of the church either become more moderate themselves, or are ostracized and left to die on the vine.

Regardless of my own religious stance, or rather lack thereof, it is quite nice to see a major religious figure, let alone the papacy, focus almost exclusively on social justice. As opposed to social conservatism and a both ridiculous and disgusting battle against birth control.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Really, the best part about Pope Francis is watching the far-right Catholic loons like Bill Donahue sputter with impotent rage.

Then again, alot of far-right Catholic loons also happen to be sedevacantists, so they probably don't even acknowledge him as the actual Pope in the first place.

[Rurkel]

Well, it's not like Francis changed any of the Vatican's positions on social conservatism and birth control. He just thinks that since so many people find them off-putting, the Church should talk about them in public a bit less. Silk finery over iron glove.

Plus, the "social justice" of organized religions often suffers from "you must be ge-e-entle to the poor" and "the poor shall always be with us" syndromes - platitudes about charity without proposing any actual systematic measures to limit poverty. It's rare for churchmen to explicitly endorse social-democratic measures - unsystematic charity sorely from the Church itself is definitely more beneficial when it comes to gaining conversions and such.

[Remus Bleys]

Really, the best part about Pope Francis is watching the far-right Catholic loons like Bill Donahue sputter with impotent rage.

Then again, alot of far-right Catholic loons also happen to be sedevacantists, so they probably don't even acknowledge him as the actual Pope in the first place. There was this fake paper that had Francis say hed turn down the papacy, and that Obama was an agent of Khruschev.

[Audeamus]

He's certainly talking the talk when it comes to slightly moderating the Vatican's position on same-sex marriage, women and all that, but is he walking the walk? Not so much, considering he just excommunicated an Australian priest who spoke out in favor of gay marriage and the ordination of women. http://world.time.com/2013/09/25/pope-francis-excommunicates-priest-who-supports-womens-ordination-and-gays/

[adipocere]

Despite the charisma and populist rhetoric, we should not forget that Francis was/is an opponent (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/vatican-analyst-pope-distanced-himself-from-liberation-theology/) of Liberation Theology (http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2013/06/14/pope-francis-was-all-too-familiar-with-liberation-theology-thats-why-he-opposed-it/), despite what some media is now trying to claim, and was almost certainly complicit with the Argentine junta (http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/17/world/fg-cardinal17) in the 1970's.

A wolf in sheep's clothing, don't be fooled.

[Remus Bleys]

Despite the charisma and populist rhetoric, we should not forget that Francis was/is an opponent (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/vatican-analyst-pope-distanced-himself-from-liberation-theology/) of Liberation Theology (http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2013/06/14/pope-francis-was-all-too-familiar-with-liberation-theology-thats-why-he-opposed-it/), despite what some media is now trying to claim, and was almost certainly complicit with the Argentine junta (http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/17/world/fg-cardinal17) in the 1970's.

A wolf in sheep's clothing, don't be fooled.
There was an article I lost that explained how the Vatican was now friendly with Liberation Theology.

[adipocere]

There was an article I lost that explained how the Vatican was now friendly with Liberation Theology.

The Vatican's position on most issues tends to reflect personal opinions of the sitting Pope, however the Vatican exercises less overt control over it's priests and parishes then one might imagine. Liberation Theology has never been encouraged but it's never been absolutely condemned either. If I'm not mistaken, there was the very real threat of a split in Latin America over the issue. Anyway if the Vatican's position has softened it's because the cold war ended and we're a couple Popes past the real heyday of Liberation Theology.

[synthesis]

Anyway if the Vatican's position has softened it's because the cold war ended and we're a couple Popes past the real heyday of Liberation Theology.

I think this is really the crux of the issue.

[Red Commissar]

With respect to comments on gays, I don't think what he's doing appreciably departs from what seems to be the mindset of "hate the sin, not the sinner". It's not like he has said that gay marriage should be legalized, but rather comments saying that gays should not be bothered or their lives interfered with. That would seem in line with the "hate the sin, not the sinner", so on top of what you've said I don't think he's departed much from what the less frothing at the mouth anti-LGBT adhere to already in the church.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Are people really falling for this half-assed PR stunt? The church is in a serious crisis due to its rampant abuse of children, this guys only job is to distract from that and it's apparently working. Fuck the pope

[cliffhanger]

Catholicism is a beautiful religion and I really respect both Benedict and Francis. People seem to get overly angry about their social positions, probably because they just want to get angry about something. I'm bisexual and it doesn't bother me that the Church follow's the Bible's teachings about homosexuality.

[The Feral Underclass]

Catholicism is a beautiful religion and I really respect both Benedict and Francis. People seem to get overly angry about their social positions, probably because they just want to get angry about something.

Is this a fucking joke?


I'm bisexual and it doesn't bother me that the Church follow's the Bible's teachings about homosexuality.

Well it should.

[cliffhanger]

Is this a fucking joke?Please don't be rude. But yeah, I'd probably become a Catholic if I believed in God. I wish I did believe in God, it seems nice.

[The Feral Underclass]

Please don't be rude.

Oh I'm sorry, is my rudeness getting in the way of your romanticising about one of the most reactionary, oppressive and brutal institutions that has ever existed?

What is it, the complicity in slavery and the holocaust, misogyny, brutalisation of atheists or the repression of the enlightenment that you find so beautiful?


But yeah, I'd probably become a Catholic if I believed in God. I wish I did believe in God, it seems nice.

I have no words.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Yeah an institution that has done nothing but persecute people for centuries, I'm sure everyone is just blowing it all out proportion

[cliffhanger]

Have you ever been in a Catholic Church? They are filled with things like stained glass windows, nice wood, altars, tapestries, etc. I get a feeling of joy from being in one. The liturgy is quite beautiful. Obviously I oppose those things you mentioned, I'm a leftist, but there are lots of bad things in the world, no need to get exaggeratedly upset about them for effect.

[The Feral Underclass]

Have you ever been in a Catholic Church?They are filled with things like stained glass windows, nice wood, altars, tapestries, etc. I get a feeling of joy from being in one. The liturgy is quite beautiful.

So your priorities in this discussion are windows and wood?


Obviously I oppose those things you mentioned

That's not obvious at all.


but there are lots of bad things in the world, no need to get exaggeratedly upset about them for effect.

Yeah, sorry about that. Things like misogyny, homophobia, the persecution of Jews seem to really get me angry...I should work on that.

[TruProl]

The most corrupt and evil organisation that is probably responsible for condoning, creating wars, bigotry and outwardly oppressive. Never mind though they stick up a nice stain window every now and then.

[o well this is ok I guess]

Catholicism is a beautiful religion and I really respect both Benedict and Francis. People seem to get overly angry about their social positions, probably because they just want to get angry about something. I'm bisexual and it doesn't bother me that the Church follow's the Bible's teachings about homosexuality. The most beautiful church is the one that builds churchs on dead communards

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

He's certainly talking the talk when it comes to slightly moderating the Vatican's position on same-sex marriage, women and all that, but is he walking the walk? Not so much, considering he just excommunicated an Australian priest who spoke out in favor of gay marriage and the ordination of women. http://world.time.com/2013/09/25/pope-francis-excommunicates-priest-who-supports-womens-ordination-and-gays/

The conspiracy: he is pretending to be liberal to weed out the truly progressive clerics in the church to purge them all; it's Angels and Demons all over againz.

[adipocere]

Catholicism is a beautiful religion and I really respect both Benedict and Francis. People seem to get overly angry about their social positions, probably because they just want to get angry about something. I'm bisexual and it doesn't bother me that the Church follow's the Bible's teachings about homosexuality.

I agree that Catholicism is a beautiful religion. I was raised in the Catholic Church my whole life. I'm not sure how I feel about Benedict and Francis, but it's not disrespect. Perhaps neutrality, really...though I admit that Francis is exceptionally likeable. The real problems in the Catholic Church are a bit more serious, in my opinion, then it's watery stance on social issues.

[The Feral Underclass]

The notion that you can detach the rituals and aesthetics from the tradition and history is naive at best, if not outright delusional or at worst an attempt to legitimise the Catholic Church.

[Comrade Jacob]

He most-likely is not genuine. He is probably just doing that in order to make the church look more progressive and not ignoring child-rape any more.
Just my opinion.

[The Feral Underclass]

He most-likely is not genuine. He is probably just doing that in order to make the church look more progressive and not ignoring child-rape any more.
Just my opinion.

I doubt that's the case. I don't think the Pope would go to the effort of contacting a young gay French man to tell him that he doesn't judge him etc, as he did.

In my view, what is really happening is not all that much. The basic Catholic position that homosexuality is a sin and therefore, unless one repents, you are condemned to hell hasn't changed. All that has changed is the Pope is talking less of fire and brimstone and more of an attempt to save people's souls.

I don't think there is a qualitative difference between believing someone is going to be punished for their sexuality and telling them that, and believing someone is going to be punished for their sexuality and pitying them for it.

[Klaatu]

I hope he starts a continuing discussion on real issues, such as pollution and income disparity.

[brigadista]

the pope is a head of state
with its own army and
bank and he is also a politician

this is pure political spin
catholicism has its own factions and secret societies and secrets and is right wing, reactionary and authoritarian

it is a massively wealthy institution -

liberation theology had a nicaraguan founder and it is no surprise that when the pope visited nicaragua in 1983 he told the sandanista priests to rationalise their position -

much as i dislike christopher hitchens , his book on mother teresa is accurate

dont believe the hype

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I doubt that's the case. I don't think the Pope would go to the effort of contacting a young gay French man to tell him that he doesn't judge him etc, as he did.

In my view, what is really happening is not all that much. The basic Catholic position that homosexuality is a sin and therefore, unless one repents, you are condemned to hell hasn't changed. All that has changed is the Pope is talking less of fire and brimstone and more of an attempt to save people's souls.

I don't think there is a qualitative difference between believing someone is going to be punished for their sexuality and telling them that, and believing someone is going to be punished for their sexuality and pitying them for it.

To be clear, it's not that being a homosexual is necessarily sinful, it's that having sex with anybody outside of marriage as well as for any reason except for procreation is sinful. In other words, it would be morally equivalent (ie sinful) for two men or two women to have sex as it would be for a man to have sex with a woman while wearing a condom, even if they are husband and wife. The Church has said that many priests are gay, for instance, but are married to God and it is not an issue.

Some believe that if a woman becomes pregnant one day, and has sex with her husband the next day, even though they don't know she's already pregnant they are sinning because, well, they technically aren't having intercourse for the purpose of making a baby and therefore need to confess to a priest. (All seriousness aside, Catholic guilt/theology can be a bit amusing at times).

The majority of parishes aren't going to care about sexual orientation or a couples use of birth control, and generally welcome homosexual couples in equal fellowship as they do heterosexuals. Those that have a problem with this are either staying and suffocating the church, or are leaving for a more acceptable alternative for their intolerance.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I suspect cliffhanger may be playing a long troll here.

[cliffhanger]

I suspect cliffhanger may be playing a long troll here.I swear to God I'm not. Of course, I don't believe in God, but I promise.

[Red_Banner]

Francis is just spewing bullcrap that he doesn't actually mean to appease people that are leaving the RC Church.

[Consistent.Surprise]

Have you ever been in a Catholic Church? They are filled with things like stained glass windows, nice wood, altars, tapestries, etc. I get a feeling of joy from being in one. The liturgy is quite beautiful. Obviously I oppose those things you mentioned, I'm a leftist, but there are lots of bad things in the world, no need to get exaggeratedly upset about them for effect.

You're seriously connecting Catholicism being ok in your book to the art & architecture of the churches & cathedrals built by those people of that faith? So do we give the thumbs up to the Anglican Church? Do we agree that Islam is a good religion? What about Judaism? What about Greek Orthodoxy? All of those have beautiful places of worship.

The Holy See & it's values can suck my non-existent right testicle. Nuns are still subservient due to being women. Marriage of priests is a no-no (though it hasn't always been). This whole thing is a pandering to a small mass to hopefully sway them to a religion of cult-like oppression, as pretty much stated by others in the thread.

Btw, I focused my art history degree on religious architecture & iconography. I know it inside & out still. Art is art. Oppressive religions need to be smashed. Keep the art, ditch the assholes.

[Remus Bleys]

The basic Catholic position that homosexuality is a sin and therefore, unless one repents, you are condemned to hell hasn't changed. Where are you getting your information from?
Its made pretty fucking clear that gay sex doesn't land you a spot in hell.

[Consistent.Surprise]

Where are you getting your information from?
Its made pretty fucking clear that gay sex doesn't land you a spot in hell.

Everything lands one a spot in hell, according to Catholics, until you confess, then you're alright with God. Sigh.

Edit: & repent. That will be 5 Hail Marys & 4 Our Fathers

[Remus Bleys]

Everything lands one a spot in hell, according to Catholics, until you confess, then you're alright with God. Sigh.

Edit: & repent. That will be 5 Hail Marys & 4 Our Fathers
:rolleyes:
Yeah, great job telling the Catholic what Catholics actually believe.

Thatll be 7 Hail Mary's and an hour of contemplation.

[Consistent.Surprise]

:rolleyes:
Yeah, great job telling the Catholic what Catholics actually believe

Catholic school girl :-p

It's true, though. Masturbation, impure thoughts, lying. Oh! Being a Jew! I've been more than educated on the church. I knew their policies when I was the Holy See for MUN.

[Lensky]

Christianity is returning to its roots, it can no longer collect tithes, charge indulgences and rents. It must speak the ideology of the masses to reach them. That is the radical teachings of Jesus Christ, compassion over greed, solidarity over egoism. The new pope is a sign of the slow return to grassroots organizing, as this was originally a religion for the slaves and dispossessed, struggling against a slave-owning empire.

[RedHal]

Christianity is returning to its roots, it can no longer collect tithes, charge indulgences and rents. It must speak the ideology of the masses to reach them. That is the radical teachings of Jesus Christ, compassion over greed, solidarity over egoism. The new pope is a sign of the slow return to grassroots organizing, as this was originally a religion for the slaves and dispossessed, struggling against a slave-owning empire.

nah it's not a sign "of returning to its roots", the catholic church exists in the material world, and we're in a serious crisis of capitalism. The selection of Francis has everything to do with keeping a good face to the brainwashed christian masses during this period. The Vatican is still a huge financial institution, but they cannot flaunt their wealth, instead this pope shows a more humble outward appearance. Doesn't he ride the bus or something instead of the limo/pope mobile? If Francis was geniune, he would not have opposed Liberation Theology and be complacent with junta.

If and when the economy picks back up, the church will go back to giving lip service to economic inequality while persecuting radical leftist tendencies within the church

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

the pope is a head of state
with its own army and
bank and he is also a politician

this is pure political spin
catholicism has its own factions and secret societies and secrets and is right wing, reactionary and authoritarian

it is a massively wealthy institution -


True, technically Vatican city is an absolute monarchy, I forgot about that, what being a city-state and all.

[The Feral Underclass]

To be clear, it's not that being a homosexual is necessarily sinful, it's that having sex with anybody outside of marriage as well as for any reason except for procreation is sinful. In other words, it would be morally equivalent (ie sinful) for two men or two women to have sex as it would be for a man to have sex with a woman while wearing a condom, even if they are husband and wife. The Church has said that many priests are gay, for instance, but are married to God and it is not an issue

The bible as well as the Catholic church both have prescriptions specifically against homosexuality as being a sin and as being something for which the punishment is hell.

This is not disputable. If I really have to provide documentary evidence I can do.

[The Feral Underclass]

Interesting article. Essentially confirms my argument (although I haven't read Patheos before so dunno if it's legit): http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/07/31/catholic-leaders-the-pope-still-thinks-sexually-active-gay-people-are-going-to-hell/

[The Feral Underclass]

Where are you getting your information from?
Its made pretty fucking clear that gay sex doesn't land you a spot in hell.

You're delusional.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

It's the same old "hate the sin, love the sinner" patronising crap that the Church has always spouted. The fact that so many people, including many on the ostensible "left" and in the official gay movement, are falling over themselves to praise this theocratic reactionary, is just pathetic, but such is life (or rather such is life when there is no serious revolutionary challenge to centrist organisations). One would think that even the centrists have learned that there are no progressive religious leaders by this point, but apparently no.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

The bible as well as the Catholic church both have prescriptions specifically against homosexuality as being a sin and as being something for which the punishment is hell.

This is not disputable. If I really have to provide documentary evidence I can do.

And a man and wife using a condom cause they can't afford children are both on a highway to hell, as are women who had an abortion or men who let their seed fall on the ground. It is refreshing to have a pope who says we shouldn't care so much (and also describes himself, in a word, as "a sinner.")

God didn't create man, man created both God and religion. And it is clearly a reflection of the times when a major religion is forced to change even its tone on something like homosexuality after centuries upon centuries of intolerance.

I'm not going to root against the University of Alabama's football team because of segregation prior to the 1960s, I'm going to root against them because fuck Alabama.

[Consistent.Surprise]

And a man and wife using a condom cause they can't afford children are both on a highway to hell, as are women who had an abortion or men who let their seed fall on the ground. It is refreshing to have a pope who says we shouldn't care so much (and also describes himself, in a word, as "a sinner.")

God didn't create man, man created both God and religion. And it is clearly a reflection of the times when a major religion is forced to change even its tone on something like homosexuality after centuries upon centuries of intolerance.

I'm not going to root against the University of Alabama's football team because of segregation prior to the 1960s, I'm going to root against them because fuck Alabama.

One Pope's statement does not make it the churches. He really seems to not have an issue with WHERE the church stands on issues but the fact of HOW the church is talked about. This is clear from US catholic blogs attached to the church. Example:
http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/pope-homosexuals-who-am-i-judge

Then:
His anti-gay marriage opinion imposed: http://huff.to/1am9GbV

He seems like a solid leader. Yup.

[The Feral Underclass]

And a man and wife using a condom cause they can't afford children are both on a highway to hell, as are women who had an abortion or men who let their seed fall on the ground. It is refreshing to have a pope who says we shouldn't care so much (and also describes himself, in a word, as "a sinner.")

You are distracted from the substance by the cosmetics.


God didn't create man, man created both God and religion. And it is clearly a reflection of the times when a major religion is forced to change even its tone on something like homosexuality after centuries upon centuries of intolerance.

Nothing has changed. Just because the tactic to save gay people's souls has changed from fear to pity is not a substantive alteration to anything. Your attempt to try and claim it is is their objective. You are now defending the Catholic Church.


I'm not going to root against the University of Alabama's football team because of segregation prior to the 1960s, I'm going to root against them because fuck Alabama.

Why would you think that analogy would make sense to someone who isn't an American? I have no idea what you're talking about.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

You are distracted from the substance by the cosmetics.

If the substance you're referring to is the above mentioned excommunication of priests who ordain women and perform same sex marriage all I can say is that it is quite a reactionary, if unsurprising, decision. The church is against both of these and clergy breaking those rules are subject to excommunication, like the Minnesota branches that refused to recognize anything except the latin mass.


Nothing has changed. Just because the tactic to save gay people's souls has changed from fear to pity is not a substantive alteration to anything. Your attempt to try and claim it is is their objective. You are now defending the Catholic Church.Something has changed, the leadership of the Catholic church realizes that "bigotry and hatred" can't be the only plan forward, and recognizes perhaps that involvement in these issues at all is not something that's in the best interest of the Church. The charity work provided is substantial and such a better outlet of combined resources.



Why would you think that analogy would make sense to someone who isn't an American? I have no idea what you're talking about.

My apologies, let me explain.

Prior to the 1960s much of the US was racially segregated, and desegregation, or integration, was a major goal of the civil rights movement in that era. In 1954 the US Supreme Court ruled segregation in public education unconstitutional, and integration began. Many blame Eisenhower, the US President, for not acting fast enough though he had a hell of a battle integrating the high schools. JFK talked a lot of talk about integration but really it was the civil rights struggle that forced the issue, and in 1963 the first two black students were enrolling at the University of Alabama when the Governor arrived and blocked the doorway. He had no real authority (the federal government had ordered integration), but he forced Kennedy to federalize the Alabama National Guard to force the doors open. It's quite a famous event here actually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa0rQtXeMGU

The university's popular football team was integrated the following year. The civil rights act passed in 1965 outlaws segregation ans well as discrimination based on race and many other factors, but not including sexual orientation.

My point is that so many brig up the long and bloody history, but I can;t say I really care or even consider it when judging the contemporary institution.

[Rugged Collectivist]

The new pope? I'm clinging to the conspiracy theory that the old one didn't step down, but was secretly forced out for being unpleasant and anachronistic. This new pope is a "progressive", and from South America too. See! The church is still relevant!

[DasFapital]

The Pope is probably a closeted homosexual anyways

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I would say the vast majority of Catholic priests are homosexual. Indeed the LGBT movement was the biggest blow to the RC in recent history-young gay/trans/bi men from Catholic families who choose to opt out of hetero family life now have other options.The shortage of priests in Western countries correlates closely with the growth of the gay rights movement.

The poops recent tolerance is superficial, no doctrine was changed.I don't know the details but didn't His Poopisness recently excommunicate a gay priest for supporting LGBT and women's rights?

This is the same institution responsible for the murder of Savita Halappanava , that covered up pedophilia on a massive scale, that kept thousands of women as slaves in Ireland and other countries.This is an institution for spreading hatred and bigotry,

Yeah, maybe a bit of damage control is in order.

The RCC is a dying institution but its in the interests of US and other ruling lasses to keep the institution propped up for as long as they can.

[cyu]

There's already talk of assassination at http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1nfq7f/pope_francis_to_rip_up_and_rewrite_vatican/

Even in the comments section of the news article http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/10342768/Pope-Francis-to-rip-up-and-rewrite-Vatican-constitution.html some guy (http://disqus.com/rodlarocque1931/) seems to be encouraging it:

This pope needs to either convert to tradition or Our Lord needs to remove him.

[Bostana]

I guess growing up as a catholic rubbed off some good values And seeing a new more progressive Pope makes me happy

[Klaatu]

The bible as well as the Catholic church both have prescriptions specifically against homosexuality as being a sin and as being something for which the punishment is hell.


If anyone is "going to hell," it is the Catholic Church itself, for their tolerance of its pedophilia-inclined clergymen.

[Nikolay]

I've been a Catholic my whole life, and liked it in my early days, but today, not so much. Many of the teachings, if not all, don't fit my own personal thinking. I do like Pope Francis. He seems like a nice guy, but is probably just doing everything for show.

Btw, I don't think we need to feel threatened by the Catholic Church anymore. Like many have said, it's a dying institution and more then 60% of Catholics are inactive... like me. ;)

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Where are you getting your information from?
Its made pretty fucking clear that gay sex doesn't land you a spot in hell.


"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13)


Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality.
(1 Corinthians 6:9)


You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22)



Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)


Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. (Romans 1:32)


Sorry buddy, but it seems TAT knows a little bit more about this disgusting bronze-age cult than you do.

[Remus Bleys]

Sorry buddy, but it seems TAT knows a little bit more about this disgusting bronze-age cult than you do.
The bible also prohibits pork.
Does the Catholic Church say you go to hell for eating pork? No it doesn't. Hell, it doesn't even say eating pork is a sin.
Does the Catholic Church say homosexuality is a sin? Yes it does, and that's inexcusable. However, does it say that you go to hell for it? Maybe in some archaic canon law, but a vast majority of catholics don't believe that - and those who do are hardliners despised by everyone else.

As posters above me have said, the relationship is "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner." Which is fucking stupid, but one thing that does mean is that homosexuality (the sin) is wrong, but not the homosexual (the sinner). Its made clear not to have gay sex (which is completely reactionary and should be forcibly changed), but it is likewise made clear that homosexuality does not land one a spot in hell.

Protip: Catholics aren't fundies. You can't take something from the Bible and go "This is what the Catholic Church preaches," because that's not how the Bible is viewed. How about you learn that before claiming to know more about this "bronze age cult" then I do, huh? Wouldn't it be neat to argue with something on its own merits, instead of your preconceived notion of how the bible is viewed? Now, if you are arguing fundamentalist Christianity, that's obviously valid - but not in the case of the catholic church, because the Catholic Church isn't fundamentalist, so simply quoting the Bible isn't enough to establish official doctrine. Or, you could take the guy who spent eight years in Catholic School (and let me tell you something, Catholic Education is a big enough argument against Catholicism) and actually sat down and read the entirety of canon law (as in, I have done that). The Church doesn't even say who goes to Hell or not (it does however say who can't go to heaven, but even this teaching is regarded as iffy) as "gods judgement" or whatever can't be perceived by the Church in such a terrible thing or a copout along those lines.

It would help if you knew these things before critiquing.


Interestingly enough, TAT also thinks eating pork is wrong. :grin:

[adipocere]

If anyone is "going to hell," it is the Catholic Church itself, for their tolerance of its pedophilia-inclined clergymen.
That's lazy. The entire business of Christianity (alone) is a revolting scandal rife with pedophilia (http://together-we-heal.org/2013/04/20/southern-baptists-like-catholic-church-is-protecting-pedophiles/) not to mention fraud (http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/settlements/11049/baptist-minister-accused.html), fraud on a massive scale (http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/apr/05/scamsandfraud), human (http://www.alifeoverseas.com/missionaries-as-human-traffickers/)and drug trafficking, (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10892328) murder (http://cmm.lefora.com/2010/11/11/dawn-tienhaara-hacheney-murdered-set-on-fire-by-hu/), mass murder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones). It's not as if the Catholic Church has a monopoly on crime.

[piet11111]

The bible as well as the Catholic church both have prescriptions specifically against homosexuality as being a sin and as being something for which the punishment is hell.

This is not disputable. If I really have to provide documentary evidence I can do.

Interestingly so is having a tattoo and this is mentioned even before homosexuality.

And if i recall correctly so is picking up fallen grapes in your own vineyard in Leviticus

[The Feral Underclass]

Interestingly so is having a tattoo and this is mentioned even before homosexuality.

And if i recall correctly so is picking up fallen grapes in your own vineyard in Leviticus

What a pain in the ass God is.

[piet11111]

What a pain in the ass God is.

Supposedly Leviticus is full of such stuff i have never read it myself but i did hear mention of a whole bunch of such crazy rules in it.

I honestly can not see how anyone might be able to live completely by that list without accidentally breaking one of those rules.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

As has already been mentioned, Catholicism is not fundamentalist in the sense of believing in sola scriptura etc. That doesn't really help, though, because the other sources of authority in the Catholic church, tradition and official theology, are all equally homophobic, misogynistic etc. In particular, Catholicism assumes a metaphysics that is explicitly queerphobic and misogynist, a form of Aristotelianism that belongs in the 12th century but is still, scandalously, being taught as an academic subject.

And sorry, Remus Bleys, but if you really buy into the entire "hate the sin" malarkey, you're naive.

[Le Libérer]

So this new pope makes you feel all warm and cozy? I guess y'all didnt see this bit.


Pope Francis has excommunicated an Australian priest from the Church for his liberal values and activism. Fr. Greg Reynolds publicly supports LGBT rights, marriage equality and women’s ordination, three big no-nos in Catholic tradition.

Source (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/09/25/pope-francis-excommunicates-priest-for-supporting-women-lgbt-people/)

I wouldnt trust him as far as I can throw him.

[The Feral Underclass]

^Well, that's that then.

[Remus Bleys]

. In particular, Catholicism assumes a metaphysics that is explicitly queerphobic and misogynist, a form of Aristotelianism that belongs in the 12th century but is still, scandalously, being taught as an academic subject.
You know, you keep saying this, but you never say how.

And sorry, Remus Bleys, but if you really buy into the entire "hate the sin" malarkey, you're naive.
I'm, sorry if it was interpreted that way... I don't believe in that "hate the sin." Its an excuse to be homophobic. What I was saying, however, that the Catholic Church doesn't believe that gays go to hell.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

You know, you keep saying this, but you never say how.

The entire framework of "natural" and "unnatural" relations, "natural" of course being one man on one woman for life and strictly for procreative purposes. See Summa Theologiae, Question 154 (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm), Article 1, 12.


I'm, sorry if it was interpreted that way... I don't believe in that "hate the sin." Its an excuse to be homophobic. What I was saying, however, that the Catholic Church doesn't believe that gays go to hell.

They do if the gay people actually do anything in line with their sexuality.

[Remus Bleys]

The entire framework of "natural" and "unnatural" relations, "natural" of course being one man on one woman for life and strictly for procreative purposes. See Summa Theologiae, Question 154 (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm), Article 1, 12. And this is central to the whole of catholicism how?
In order to do the eucharist, one must believe that homosexuality is wrong? This seems to be what your argument always is.


They do if the gay people actually do anything in line with their sexuality.
Uh... No it doesn't. It condemns it of course (and that alone is deplorable and should be the one focused on) but doesn't damn homosexuals (who actually fuck) to hell.
And you don't even believe in hell. Why do you care?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

That's lazy. The entire business of Christianity (alone) is a revolting scandal rife with pedophilia (http://together-we-heal.org/2013/04/20/southern-baptists-like-catholic-church-is-protecting-pedophiles/) not to mention fraud (http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/settlements/11049/baptist-minister-accused.html), fraud on a massive scale (http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/apr/05/scamsandfraud), human (http://www.alifeoverseas.com/missionaries-as-human-traffickers/)and drug trafficking, (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10892328) murder (http://cmm.lefora.com/2010/11/11/dawn-tienhaara-hacheney-murdered-set-on-fire-by-hu/), mass murder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones). It's not as if the Catholic Church has a monopoly on crime.

As far as the Catholic church is concerned, the paramount concern is pedophilia, and it is not even close. The difference between that particular scandal and the others, in which individuals committed illegal activities, is the fact that the organization lied and attempted to cover up shameful and disgusting acts for decades (at least, against living victims. It is possible that pedophilia has been a staple for much longer than previously believed. Who knows?). Once the church protected its own and its reputation as opposed to seeking justice and recovery on behalf of the many victims, the scandal became a mortal wound to the church in many countries. Thankfully, both catholics and the general population have ceased to be tolerant of any bullshit and justice is usually meted out.

Not to say the catholic church hasn't covered up many scandalous activities throughout their history other than the current big one.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

And this is central to the whole of catholicism how?

It's the direct consequence, explicitly drawn by the earliest codifiers, of the metaphysical framework on which Catholic thought rests.


In order to do the eucharist, one must believe that homosexuality is wrong? This seems to be what your argument always is.

One can do the Eucharist and believe themselves to be the lunar fairy princess, but one can't really be a consistent Catholic without being a homophobe.


Uh... No it doesn't. It condemns it of course (and that alone is deplorable and should be the one focused on) but doesn't damn homosexuals (who actually fuck) to hell.

That's disingenuous. "Mortal sins" result in damnation.


And you don't even believe in hell. Why do you care?

Well, let's put it like this. Anyone who believes that gay people deserve to be eternally tortured is a dog of the bourgeoisie, and a rabid dog at that, and deserves to be treated as such.

[Remus Bleys]

It's the direct consequence, explicitly drawn by the earliest codifiers, of the metaphysical framework on which Catholic thought rests.
Ah yes. There was an article that was clearly shit, so lets get rid of it all.




Well, let's put it like this. Anyone who believes that gay people deserve to be eternally tortured is a dog of the bourgeoisie, and a rabid dog at that, and deserves to be treated as such.
Well, yeah. That was a stupid reply of mine.

As for the rest of your post, Im not repeating myself again you piece of shit.

[Yuppie Grinder]

he aint nothin new
#fuccthapope

[Magic Carpets Corp.]

Child-diddler-in-charge #265 replaced by child-diddler-in-charge #266. Big whoop.



Well, let's put it like this. Anyone who believes that gay people deserve to be eternally tortured is a dog of the bourgeoisie, and a rabid dog at that, and deserves to be treated as such.
Why? The bourgeoisie is neither inherently homophobic nor is homophobia inherently bourgeois. Most bourgeois parasites in the West are pro-LGBT rights at this point, increasingly so with each passing year, and homophobia is as old as class society itself.

Like European anti-semitism, homophobia is a bottom-up phenomenon.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Ah yes. There was an article that was clearly shit, so lets get rid of it all.

Well, that article didn't simply appear there by accident. I mean, the Summa Theologica and Catholic theology in general is pretty much a logically closed system - you adopt certain assumptions and things like the article that is clearly shit are a direct consequence of that. As well as other articles that are clearly shit. You can reject the assumptions (indeed, living after the miserable failure of Aristotelian metaphysics in the 15th century, you should), but that means that doctrines such as the Trinity, transsubstantiation etc. are not completely meaningless.


As for the rest of your post, Im not repeating myself again you piece of shit.

Well, you're free to demonstrate that mortal sin no longer results in damnation according to Catholic theology. If you can't - well, that's not my fault.


Why? The bourgeoisie is neither inherently homophobic nor is homophobia inherently bourgeois. Most bourgeois parasites in the West are pro-LGBT rights at this point, increasingly so with each passing year, and homophobia is as old as class society itself.

Like European anti-semitism, homophobia is a bottom-up phenomenon.

Homophobia is the direct result of the mode in which the proletariat is reproduced as a class - the bourgeois family unit. Therefore, the bourgeoisie, though it might put on airs to the contrary, is inherently homophobic and homophobia bourgeois.

A

[sixdollarchampagne]

Christianity is returning to its roots, it can no longer collect tithes, charge indulgences and rents. It must speak the ideology of the masses to reach them. That is the radical teachings of Jesus Christ, compassion over greed, solidarity over egoism. The new pope is a sign of the slow return to grassroots organizing, as this was originally a religion for the slaves and dispossessed, struggling against a slave-owning empire.

I just wanted to comment that, in a collection of Marx and Engels writings, edited by Louis Feuer, I believe, that I used to have when I was an undergraduate in the 1960's, Fred Engels states (drawing from the New Testament, in fact) that Christianity was originally a religion of slaves, so it is interesting that TMPH, above, makes the same point.

In light of what a lot of people in this discussion have expressed, my question would be, when was militant atheism first considered as a requirement for being a Marxist? Does that go back to Karl and Fred, or to someone else? I remember that in something Trotsky wrote, his "Testament," I think, he makes the point that a Marxist is, of course, an implacable atheist, but the requirement must be older than that.

As for Pope Francis (the former Cardinal Bergoglio), he has been criticized by leftists for his stance regarding the military dictatorship in his native Argentina, so I wouldn't expect too much. It's a little surprising that, with all the Cardinals to choose from, they chose someone who may possibly have some very disturbing baggage from the not too distant past.

[sixdollarchampagne]

...Homophobia is the direct result of the mode in which the proletariat is reproduced as a class - the bourgeois family unit. Therefore, the bourgeoisie, though it might put on airs to the contrary, is inherently homophobic and homophobia bourgeois.

Years ago, after I got out of the Navy, I moved to Dorchester, Massachusetts, a tough part of Boston, and one day I got assaulted walking home, because I had long hair, so a couple of the Dot Avenue neighborhood toughs thought I was gay and accordingly attacked me. That was the only time in my adult life I was ever assaulted. So, I can assure Vincent West that there are indeed utterly non-bourgeois homophobes. Thinking about that incident, I remember that a grad student from work offered to come to Dorchester and beat up my assailants, but I declined his kind offer.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Years ago, after I got out of the Navy, I moved to Dorchester, Massachusetts, a tough part of Boston, and one day I got assaulted walking home, because I had long hair, so a couple of the Dot Avenue neighborhood toughs thought I was gay and accordingly attacked me. That was the only time in my adult life I was ever assaulted. So, I can assure Vincent West that there are indeed utterly non-bourgeois homophobes. Thinking about that incident, I remember that a grad student from work offered to come to Dorchester and beat up my assailants, but I declined his kind offer.

Well, sure, I would imagine most homophobes are not bourgeois and many members of the bourgeoisie don't see themselves as homophobic. But homophobia, in the present period at least, is part of the bourgeois ideology. Most workers subscribe to some form of bourgeois ideology, and homophobia and other assorted nastiness is not an exception.

[cyu]

The Catholic Church is like a virtual nation. Just as there are pro-capitalists in a "normal" nation that want to move the nation in a certain direction, or there may be leftists that are trying to move it in other directions, the same thing happens in the Church. When issues of doctrine come up, whether they are decided in one way or another, it is merely a reflection of which factions within the Church that have the upper hand.

When you see the Church talking about contraceptives or homosexual behavior, I would say you are witnessing the expression of those factions who are primarily concerned about the continuation of the Catholic "nation" - that is, they fear that the Church would die out, and as part of their fear, they believe contraception and homosexual behavior would hurt the size of future Catholic populations.

If the Church is focusing on different things now, it is probably just that the factional influences have shifted. Doesn't mean they won't shift back in the future, just as pro-capitalists may regain power. On the other hand, things within the Catholic "nation" can continue to shift in new directions - or even in old directions that are different from what happened since the introduction of Darwin's ideas.

For every two ideas, it is very likely that sometimes they will come into conflict. And if you're a Church concerned about doctrine, you have to decide which is more important. For example, is it more important to avoid idolatry or is it more important to avoid killing? Is it more important to love your neighbor or is it more important to keep the Sabbath?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Well, sure, I would imagine most homophobes are not bourgeois and many members of the bourgeoisie don't see themselves as homophobic. But homophobia, in the present period at least, is part of the bourgeois ideology. Most workers subscribe to some form of bourgeois ideology, and homophobia and other assorted nastiness is not an exception.

I'd just like to say that many members of the bourgeoisie are gay or lesbian or transgender, just like members of that class represent many different races. Capitalism survived the end of slavery, the end of racial segregation, and women being given their rights. Are any of these things perfect, or even close to being ideal? No, of course not. But chattel slavery and racial segregation are not necessary for capitalism, and in fact may even impede it in some circumstances. As does homophobia.

[Rafiq]

Child-diddler-in-charge #265 replaced by child-diddler-in-charge #266. Big whoop.


Why? The bourgeoisie is neither inherently homophobic nor is homophobia inherently bourgeois. Most bourgeois parasites in the West are pro-LGBT rights at this point, increasingly so with each passing year, and homophobia is as old as class society itself.

Like European anti-semitism, homophobia is a bottom-up phenomenon.

The bourgeois family structure was always heterosexual until post 68, so you're wrong. Antisemitism, though pervasive throughout all of Europe's history, is completely different in capitalism than it was during feudalism.

[Remus Bleys]

Greg Reynolds also violated the Eucharist. That's a big nono in the Catholic Church and results in immediate excommunication.
Did his support for women's ordination and lgbt rights factor in to his excommunication? Well, of course it did. But there are also other popular priests that have called for ordination and lgbt rights.

These things aren't as black and white as you want them to be.

[Lensky]

Religion is not the actual cause of social and economic suffering, i.e. it is not harmful in itself. Rather, religion is a symptom of a sick social system, which is used by both the ruling class and the exploited workers as a means of obscuring the root problems of economic and political inequality.

[Venas Abiertas]

Just to clarify some comments above about "mortal sin": mortal sin is by definition damning. The word "mortal" refers to the death of soul, therefore eternal condemnation.

However, the Catholic Church ever since the 1960's has emphasized the existence of mitigating factors (such as upbringing, mental state at the time of committing the sin, habitual behavior leading to the sin, etc.) that reduce the chance that one has committed a mortal sin and not a venial, or less serious one.

The Church has always taught that to commit mortal sin one must be conscious that it is a mortal sin (and not ignorant of that fact) and must commit the sin on purpose, with the intention and full knowledge of offending God. Because of advances in the last century in psychology and sociology, many theologians now believe that mortal sin is not that common. That's why you don't see such long lines at confession like back in the 1950's, for example.

Many other Christian denominations, as well as Jews and Muslims, have adopted similar approaches. In other words, probably most religious people today don't believe God is so easily offended as their ancestors did!

[Red_Banner]

I just wanted to comment that, in a collection of Marx and Engels writings, edited by Louis Feuer, I believe, that I used to have when I was an undergraduate in the 1960's, Fred Engels states (drawing from the New Testament, in fact) that Christianity was originally a religion of slaves, so it is interesting that TMPH, above, makes the same point.

In light of what a lot of people in this discussion have expressed, my question would be, when was militant atheism first considered as a requirement for being a Marxist? Does that go back to Karl and Fred, or to someone else? I remember that in something Trotsky wrote, his "Testament," I think, he makes the point that a Marxist is, of course, an implacable atheist, but the requirement must be older than that.

As for Pope Francis (the former Cardinal Bergoglio), he has been criticized by leftists for his stance regarding the military dictatorship in his native Argentina, so I wouldn't expect too much. It's a little surprising that, with all the Cardinals to choose from, they chose someone who may possibly have some very disturbing baggage from the not too distant past.'

"All religions so far have been the expression of historical stages of development of individual peoples or groups of peoples. But communism is the stage of historical development which makes all existing religions superfluous and brings about their disappearance"-Engels

[argeiphontes]

'

"All religions so far have been the expression of historical stages of development of individual peoples or groups of peoples. But communism is the stage of historical development which makes all existing religions superfluous and brings about their disappearance"-Engels

That's only true if religion only contains things that correspond to things communism will address or somehow fix or render superfluous. That's clearly false from any nonsimplistic interpretation of religion. Communism will not cause religion to disappear.

[Red_Banner]

Well why shouldn't it?

[argeiphontes]

Well, I happen to think that religion is a natural, irrational activity of the human mind. It has always existed, though not always in an oppressive, hierarchical form. You can eliminate the church, but not religion itself. I think it's mistaking one kind of thing for another. Religion is a metaphysical activity that doesn't depend on any particular material conditions.

Also, I don't think it's useful for communists to be anti-religious. It's not as if people are going to leave the churches and take to the barricades, for the same reasons as above. All it does is alienate people, especially proletarians.

That doesn't mean I don't think organized religion would decline after a revolution. Misery is definitely one reason people turn to religion, but I don't think it's as simple as just that. It would be more likely to evolve into a different form, like the diffuse "spirituality" that lots of people claim they have, without following any major established religion.

edit: The Age of Pisces is ending anyway ;)

[sixdollarchampagne]

'

"All religions so far have been the expression of historical stages of development of individual peoples or groups of peoples. But communism is the stage of historical development which makes all existing religions superfluous and brings about their disappearance"-Engels

Thanks so much to cde Red Banner, for adducing the quotation from Fred Engels, that shows the connection between Marxism and atheism. So the connection is genuine and comes from the very source of Marxism. I learned something from cde Red Banner's post.

[sixdollarchampagne]

Well, I happen to think that religion is a natural, irrational activity of the human mind. It has always existed, though not always in an oppressive, hierarchical form. You can eliminate the church, but not religion itself. ...

That doesn't mean I don't think organized religion would decline after a revolution. Misery is definitely one reason people turn to religion, but I don't think it's as simple as just that. It would be more likely to evolve into a different form, like the diffuse "spirituality" that lots of people claim they have, without following any major established religion.

edit: The Age of Pisces is ending anyway ;)

To comment on what cde argeiphontes (the name is Greek, but I don't know what it means - perhaps the comrade could enlighten us on that) wrote, in fact, Russian Orthodoxy, which is politically reactionary, I bet, since it must have made its peace with the ghastly pogroms under tsarism, survived both the October Revolution and decades of Stalinist rule, and I would bet that it is flourishing today, in the context of the current capitalist restoration in Russia.

I also seem to remember that evangelical Protestantism did quite well in the DDR – "East Germany" – in a thoroughly repressive police state there, where organized religion, by virtue of its backbone, served as a kind of moral center, an institution largely free of Stalinism. So, organized religion is demonstrably stronger than Stalinist rule, and it will probably be with us for centuries to come.

[Red_Banner]

Thanks so much to cde Red Banner, for adducing the quotation from Fred Engels, that shows the connection between Marxism and atheism. So the connection is genuine and comes from the very source of Marxism. I learned something from cde Red Banner's post.


Yeah, here's the link to the source:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm

[argeiphontes]

argeiphontes (the name is Greek, but I don't know what it means - perhaps the comrade could enlighten us on that)

Argeiphontes is an epithet of Hermes, which means Slayer of Argos ("phontes" is basically 'killer' as far as I know). In the mythology, Argos was a hundred-eyed monster who was guarding the sheep, so I thought the name was appropriate for this site and my anarchism.

edit: The avatar is from Monty Python, by Terry Gilliam.

[GerrardWinstanley]

I don't consider myself hostile to religion in general and, to be honest, I have a difficult time understanding those who are.

I do, however, reserve a special loathing for Christianity (and wish more people would) for mindlessly destroying pretty much everything good that it came into contact with for at least a 1000 years and its veneration of worthless, bigoted degenerates like Ambrose, Theophilus and Athanasius as saints (and don't think I let protestantism off the hook either, which honours those men as 'Church Fathers').