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View Full Version : Flaws in the ways we analyze ideas



Skyhilist
25th September 2013, 07:36
I've come to realize something. The way that most of us on here (in my opinion) have come to analyze ideas is really wrong.

Let me provide an example.

Suppose we have two tendencies. These tendencies are tendency 1 and tendency 2. Now, both of them were conceived over a century ago so they're prone to having certain ideas that aren't really good or relevant anymore. For example, let us say that each of these two tendencies has 3 main ideas. Tendency 1 has ideas A, B, and C, of which A and B are still good ideas but C is not. Tendency 2 has ideas D, E, and F, of which E and F are still good ideas but D is not.

The way we should analyze this situation is to say that when we logically evaluate ideas A-F individually, we see merit in ideas A, B, E, and F. Instead, here's what people on here do: they try to determine which tendency has more merit, tendency 1 or tendency 2. As a result, an individual will hold onto either ideas A, B, and C or ideas D, E, and F. As a result of this, people fail to recognize good ideas that don't fall within tendency 1/tendency 2 and also continue to uphold flawed idea C/D depending on what tendency they chose as more reasonable.

This is a problem because it makes it so that we're not really choosing on our own what ideas we like and what ones we don't. Almost everyone on here might like to think that, but it's not true. People on here tend to do this: they evaluate which tendency they like best (Left Coms, M-Ls, anarcho-communists, etc.) based on what the ideas of that tendency are like. This is the wrong way to do things. Why? Because the tendency you chose may have 99 great ideas and 1 bad idea... and one of the tendencies you rejected may have had 1 great idea and 99 bad ideas. But the problem is, once we choose a tendency, we don't see it that way. Things become more black and white and we tend to oversimplify, psychologically. Now, we see our own tendency as having 100 good ideas and the tendency in question that we rejected as having no good ideas.

This is why, we must isolate ideas from the tendencies that they come from. Had everyone done this before choosing tendencies, we'd have a much more logical basis for our ideas. Imagine if you'd analyzed these 200 ideas independently (100 from each tendency). You'd have 100 ideas that you saw as good and 100 that you saw as bad, or less good. That is how you would organize things, and that is more logical. If you could look down on the version of yourself who'd accepted ideas based on what tendency they were, you'd say "wow that person (yourself) has 99 great ideas, but 1 bad idea." You're able to look at ideas rationally from this perspective. Whereas on the other hand if you had chosen ideas based on what you saw as the most logical tendency, you would be that version of yourself that you were looking down on -- so you'd come to see that (now current version of) yourself as having 100 good ideas and no bad ideas. This wont be done on as logically sound a basis as before, because you'll have fooled yourself psychologically based on what tendency you've already chosen as to what constitutes a good idea.

Once you abandon the rational way of analyzing ideas independently, it's hard to get back on track. Psychologically, when you choose a tendency, your mind wants to see everything within that tendency as right -- and it wants to see more things in other tendencies as wrong than really are (and when I use the words "right" and "wrong", I mean what you would conclude to be right and wrong if you evaluated every single idea independently and divorced it from the tendency it came from). We should therefore include that ideas must be divorced from the tendencies that they come from when we are analyzing them. It is better in the same way that a double blind experiment is better than a single blind one. Only then will the way we form our beliefs be on the most logical basis.

Now, if you do this and it ends up that after looking at every major idea individually, you agreed with all the ideas of a single tendency and none of the ideas of other ones, then fine. But this is extremely unlikely. Given the hundreds if not thousands of relevant leftist ideas, it is probably extremely unlikely that if you evaluate every idea independently, you will reach exactly the same set of conclusions and have the same set of beliefs as any given tendency. If you do, then it may in fact provide strong evidence for the fact that you've done an inadequate job of isolating ideas from their respective tendencies when analyzing them. I, for example would say that I have done a poor job of this. Why? Because I really don't disagree with any of the ideas put out by anarcho-syndicalists or anarcho-communists and therefore feel that I can call myself those two things. So how might I, and all of you, isolate these ideas better in order to be able to analyze them more logically and without preference/bias based on the tendencies that they came from? That my friends is the million dollar question.

I hope I've made sense to you all. It's very late here and I've grown quite tired.

d3crypt
25th September 2013, 07:52
The very reason i made Marxist-Luxemburgist-Pannekoekist- Guy Debord Thought with Anarchist Characteristics. :grin:

Quail
25th September 2013, 12:28
Well one way to analyse ideas more objectively is not to assign yourself a tendency but rather look at the ideas and draw inspiration from whichever ideas you think make sense. Also, tendencies aren't just a fixed set of ideas which everyone has to agree with. There should be a variety of viewpoints within each tendency. I'm an anarchist but I don't expect myself to agree with everyone else who calls themselves an anarchist. If there was perfect agreement and no debate, anarchism would stagnate and become irrelevant.

cliffhanger
25th September 2013, 12:55
Eclecticism is popular in the West right now in a way that sort of forms the other side of the coin of the humanist consensus. That is, everyone has a special worldview, everyone contributes something to the debate, you've got to think for yourself, etc. It fits very well with the consumer model of the economy, that only you have sufficient knowledge of your own life to make choices about your situation. It's bourgeois ideology because it implies there is no scientific understanding of society. The truth is that eclecticism is usually a mask for ignorance: People don't know a lot about history and they assume that it's just a free-for-all debate. This is fed into by the bourgeois view of humanity as a sort of spiritual quest for self-mastery, such that individual efforts must be reconciled with society. This worldview makes it impossible to think in class terms, and as a result you get countless liberal versions of "socialism" such as Trotskyism, anarchism, reformism, etc.

Remus Bleys
25th September 2013, 15:33
The very reason i made Marxist-Luxemburgist-Pannekoekist- Guy Debord Thought with Anarchist Characteristics. :grin:

Which is inferior to Robespierre-Marx-Gramsci-Luxemburg-Tito-Chávez Thought with Anarchist Tolstoyan Hoxhaist Influences

All your ideas are fundamentally wrong. Yes, even the ones we agree with.

Skyhilist
25th September 2013, 19:59
Eclecticism is popular in the West right now in a way that sort of forms the other side of the coin of the humanist consensus. That is, everyone has a special worldview, everyone contributes something to the debate, you've got to think for yourself, etc. It fits very well with the consumer model of the economy, that only you have sufficient knowledge of your own life to make choices about your situation. It's bourgeois ideology because it implies there is no scientific understanding of society. The truth is that eclecticism is usually a mask for ignorance: People don't know a lot about history and they assume that it's just a free-for-all debate. This is fed into by the bourgeois view of humanity as a sort of spiritual quest for self-mastery, such that individual efforts must be reconciled with society. This worldview makes it impossible to think in class terms, and as a result you get countless liberal versions of "socialism" such as Trotskyism, anarchism, reformism, etc.

Your strike me as very dogmatic in implying that your conceptions of socialism are the only "objective, scientific" ones. Really political views are always subjective. Don't let someone tell you what and what is scientific. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know the scientific process: apply it to different ideas rather than just assuming that a certain set of ideas conceived in the early 20th century follow the scientific method today. In all likelihood, some will and some won't. Don't act like one dogmatic group is going to have all the answers or that your ideas are more scientific than others when you adhere to a certain tendency just because you've read that (for example don't just automatically assume something that questions your worldview is "bourgeois ideology"). What you're doing now is only exacerbating dogmatism, which pretty much always leads to arbitrary divisions that are in fact not based on logic, no matter how many dogmatic theorists have told you otherwise.


Also, I agree with the addition made by Quail, although I think it's important to note the although anarchism can be flexible to an extent even it has a set of inherent ideas that should be analyzed individually and only accepted if one seems them all true independently rather than lumping them all together. Also nice job at pretty much condensing what I was trying to say into one paragraph and statin it much more eloquently than I could.

cliffhanger
25th September 2013, 20:05
Your strike me as very dogmatic in implying that your conceptions of socialism are the only "objective, scientific" ones. Really political views are always subjective. Don't let someone tell you what and what is scientific. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know the scientific process: apply it to different ideas rather than just assuming that a certain set of ideas conceived in the early 20th century follow the scientific method today. In all likelihood, some will and some won't. Don't act like one dogmatic group is going to have all the answers or that your ideas are more scientific than others when you adhere to a certain tendency just because you've read that (for example don't just automatically assume something that questions your worldview is "bourgeois ideology"). What you're doing now is only exacerbating dogmatism, which pretty much always leads to arbitrary divisions that are in fact not based on logic, no matter how many dogmatic theorists have told you otherwise.Maybe you're afraid of people with real beliefs? Being humble isn't the same as thinking you're probably wrong about everything.

Skyhilist
25th September 2013, 20:23
Or, maybe you're just arrogant if you think your beliefs can be the only possible "real" beliefs without being able to question the current relevancy and/or validity of sets of ideas that were conceived over a century ago.

cliffhanger
25th September 2013, 20:32
Or, maybe you're just arrogant if you think your beliefs can be the only possible "real" beliefs without being able to question the current relevancy and/or validity of sets of ideas that were conceived over a century ago.
I question my beliefs all the time. Who doesn't? Who needs to be reminded that some Trot sect probably isn't 100% on the money about everything?

Skyhilist
25th September 2013, 20:42
I don't see what the problem is then. If you already question each belief, then you're doing what I'm suggesting to in this thread, so I don't see where your problem with what I'm saying is.