Islamist gunmen attack shopping mall in Nairobi, Kenya

[Flying Purple People Eater]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/21/gunmen-kenyan-shopping-centre-nairobi


Gun attack on Kenyan shopping centre kills at least 25

Islamic militant group al-Shabaab says Kenyan government continued to 'massacre innocent Muslims in Somalia' despite warnings
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Video - police search for gunmen at Nairobi shopping center (http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/sep/21/nairobi-shopping-centre-attack-police-gunmen-video)
theguardian.com, Sunday 22 September 2013 01.20 AEST

At least 25 people have been killed in a suspected terrorist attack in the Kenyan capital, Nairobi, after gunmen opened fire and threw grenades in an upmarket shopping centre.

On Saturday evening the Kenyan presidency tweeted that one of the gunmen had been arrested. The country's head of police, David Kimaiyo, said several assailants were also apprehended when police and military entered the mall following the attack.

Witnesses said the men, brandishing AK-47s, told Muslims to leave and shot those they believed were non-Muslims.

"We are treating this as a terrorist attack," said the police chief Benson Kibue, adding that 10 attackers were involved. Police did not say which group was responsible.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/9/21/1379769716637/A-wounded-woman-is-helped-010.jpg
A wounded woman is helped to safety after gunmen opened fire in a shopping centre in Nairobi, Kenya. Photograph: Simon Maina/AFP/Getty Images

"It is a possibility that it is an attack by terrorists, so we are treating the matter very seriously," Mutea Iringo, the principal secretary in the ministry of interior, told Reuters.

The al-Qaida linked Somali Islamist militant group al-Shabaab has not formally claimed responsibility for the attack, but used it's official Twitter handle, @HSM-Press, to describe the killings as "a very tiny fraction of what Muslims in Somalia experience at the hands of Kenyan invaders".

The group also accused the Kenyan government of continuing to "massacre innocent Muslims in Somalia", a reference to Kenyan troops being sent into Somalia in 2011 in order to fight al-Shabaab.


The Kenyan government, however, turned a deaf ear to our repeated warnings and continued to massacre innocent Muslims in Somalia #Westgate

— HSM Press Office (@HSM_Press) September 21, 2013
The ministry earlier posted warnings to the public on Twitter to avoid the area around the Westgate centre, the most exclusive shopping centre in the city.

Elijah Kamau told the Associated Press the gunmen had made the statement about Muslims as they began their attack.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/9/21/1379769946984/A-Kenyan-woman-is-helped--008.jpg
A Kenyan woman is carried away from the shopping centre. Photograph: Simon Maina/AFP/Getty Images

The interior ministry asked local media not to televise the gun battle live because the gunmen were watching the screens in the shopping centre.

Armed police arrived nearly half an hour after the attack began and engaged the gunmen in a shootout. Officers shouted: "Get out, get out", and scores of shoppers fled the building. At least half a dozen were bloodied and helped by first-aiders.

Security guards used shopping trollies to wheel out several wounded children and at least one man.

Rob Vandijk, who works at the Dutch embassy, said he was eating at a restaurant in the shopping centre when attackers lobbed grenades inside the building. He said gunfire then burst out and people screamed as they dropped to the ground.

A former British soldier said: "I personally touched the eyes of four people and they were dead. One of them was a child. It's carnage up there."

Cars were left abandoned outside the centre, which is located in the city's affluent Westlands area and is frequented by expatriates and wealthy Kenyans.

Other witnesses said that they had seen about five armed assailants storm the shopping centre and that the incident appeared to be an attack rather than an armed robbery.

"They don't seem like thugs. This is not a robbery incident," Yukeh Mannasseh told Reuters. "It seems like an attack. The guards who saw them said they were shooting indiscriminately."

Kenya has seen a rise in terrorist attacks and threats in recent years, some of which are believed to be in retaliation for a military crackdown on al-Shabaab. The group vowed in 2011 to carry out a large-scale attack in Nairobi in retaliation for Kenya sending troops into Somalia to fight them.

The attacks often involve gunmen armed with automatic weapons and grenades, and their targets include bars, nightclubs and restaurants in various parts of the country. A suspected al-Shabaab attack in January left five people dead and three injured at a restaurant in the eastern city of Garissa. In August last year one person was killed and six injured in the Eastleigh area of Nairobi on the eve of a visit by Hillary Clinton, the then US secretary of state.

Last month 18 of the 19 US embassies and consulates across the Middle East and Africa were closed after a message between al-Qaida officials about plans for a major terrorist attack was intercepted.

'Innocent muslims'? You mean like the ones you tore from their homes, stole from, enslaved and raped, Al-Shabaab?

This is a bit shocking. I knew islamist sects were present in the Sahel region but I didn't know it happened that often with Kenya.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I guess the death toll has risen...?

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=1029424&CategoryId=12395

[adipocere]

Not to sound crass, but it is interesting how much media coverage this terrorist attack in Kenya on an upscale shopping mall is generating over say...the daily terror bombings in Iraq that have left over 700 dead just in this month (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/recent/). In fact, between 70-92 people were killed on Saturday and the word just kept spinning...

Oh wait: "Foreign Secretary William Hague said there are "undoubtedly British nationals" caught up in the siege" and precious white lives have been threatened. doh

[Devrim]

Oh wait: "Foreign Secretary William Hague said there are "undoubtedly British nationals" caught up in the siege" and precious white lives have been threatened. doh

I would expect that if there are British nationals there. They would be more likely to be black, and of Kenyan descent than white.

Devrim

[adipocere]

I would expect that if there are British nationals there. They would be more likely to be black, and of Kenyan descent than white.

Devrim
Judging by the many photo galleries there appears to be a fairly large number of people who were present who are arguably not of Kenyan descent. I'm not saying that these people Hague was referring to were necessarily white, or that all of the blonde haired blue eyed people fleeing in the photos are British but...

From wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kenya):"Europeans in Kenya primarily consist of descendants of British colonials. Many are of aristocratic descent and still continue to wield significant influence, especially over Kenya's political elite. Britons and other Europeans in Kenya have also traditionally dominated the local business community"

I really think this has something to do with "why we care"

[Bronco]

I would expect that if there are British nationals there. They would be more likely to be black, and of Kenyan descent than white.

Devrim

What makes you think that? The mall was partly targeted because it's popular with expats and foreign employees working in embassies etc.

[synthesis]

A former British soldier said: "I personally touched the eyes of four people and they were dead. One of them was a child. It's carnage up there."

Is it just me or does this guy sound completely fucking insane?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I'm half waiting for some pathetic Maoist Third Worldist to come here and proclaim this to be a noble act of anti imperialist resistance.


Judging by the many photo galleries there appears to be a fairly large number of people who were present who are arguably not of Kenyan descent. I'm not saying that these people Hague was referring to were necessarily white, or that all of the blonde haired blue eyed people fleeing in the photos are British but...

From wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kenya):"Europeans in Kenya primarily consist of descendants of British colonials. Many are of aristocratic descent and still continue to wield significant influence, especially over Kenya's political elite. Britons and other Europeans in Kenya have also traditionally dominated the local business community"

I really think this has something to do with "why we care"

I think we should give warrantless speculation about the ethnic and class composition of the victims a rest until we know more.

Also we should always stand against violence done in the name of/justified by religious reactionary ideology. Yes the victims might be more likely to be foreign or wealthy but they weren't the people repressing the workers and peasants of Somalia.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I think we should give warrantless speculation about the ethnic and class composition of the victims a rest until we know more.

Also we should always stand against violence done in the name of/justified by religious reactionary ideology. Yes the victims might be more likely to be foreign or wealthy but they weren't the people repressing the workers and peasants of Somalia.

All Al-Shabaab really is is just a fascistic islamist sect trying to claw it's way into the horn of Africa for the glory of Saudi imperialism, taking sex slaves wives at gunpoint, whipping muslim moderates and non-muslims, making connections with the oil kingdoms and all that. I can't see how even a MTW crackpot could be that stupid.



Not to sound crass, but it is interesting how much media coverage this terrorist attack in Kenya on an upscale shopping mall is generating over say...the daily terror bombings in Iraq that have left over 700 dead just in this month (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/recent/). In fact, between 70-92 people were killed on Saturday and the word just kept spinning...

Another discussion for another time please. If you want to talk about what you perceive to be bias between two events in the media, please make a thread about it.

[Tim Cornelis]

I found myself very affected by this, more so than a bombing in Pakistan. I don't know exactly why, I certainly didn't know about the high number of foreigners there beforehand, but maybe because the media brought it in such a manner (for instance I was watching RT a few years back and they brought a breaking story of bombings in Russia, and I was affected by this as well, then I told my parents if they knew what happened and they kinda shrugged -- was it the media's format in which they brought the news?)
It's also common that interest in a situation diminishes as it drags on (e.g. Syrian civil war) so Iraq or Pakistan are regarded as 'yet another one of those bombings' whereas in Kenya this is a unique occurrence.
I also found that seeing a news report on Kurdish female fighters in Syria had a tighter grip on me than other violence in Syria because they looked like they could sit next to you on the bus.

It's psychologically more likely to emphatise with people of the same social identity, so Africans walking around in jeans, sneakers, and in a familiar surrounding (shopping mall), or Kurdish females with sneakers and jeans and ponytails wielding AK-47s is more likely to affect you.

The question of selective interest in particular situations is more complex than the straightforward "because whites are more important." (while certainly it factors into the similar or same social identity).

[adipocere]

Somewhat surreal update


Israeli forces enter Nairobi mall, Kenyan president's nephew, fiancee among dead (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/Israeli-forces-enter-Nairobi-mall-Kenyan-presidents-nephew-fiancee-among-dead/articleshow/22898722.cms)

NAIROBI: Israeli forces have joined Kenyan efforts to end a deadly siege by Somali militants at a Nairobi shopping mall, a security source told AFP Sunday.
"The Israelis have just entered and they are rescuing the hostages and the injured," the source told AFP on condition that he is not named.
At least 59 people have been confirmed killed in the attack by Somali militants on an upmarket shopping mall in Nairobi, a government minister said on Sunday, as Kenyan troops battled gunmen still holding an unknown number of hostages.
Heavy gunfire could be heard as Kenyan security officials said they were attempting to kill or capture the remaining attackers and end the 24-hour-long bloodbath at the Westgate mall.
Among the dead was renowned Ghanaian poet and statesmen Kofi Awoonor. Somalia's al-Qaida-inspired al-Shabaab (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Al-Shabaab) rebels said the carnage at the part Israeli-owned complex was in retaliation for Kenya's military intervention in Somalia, where African Union troops are battling the Islamists.
Interior minister Joseph Ole Lenku said 59 people were confirmed dead. "A number of attackers are still in the building, and range between 10 to 15 gunmen," he said in a statement. "We believe there are some innocent people in the building, that is why the operation is delicate."

Kenyan president's kin dead

Kenyan President Uhuru Kenyatta (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Uhuru-Kenyatta) said on Sunday a nephew and his fiancee were among the 59 people confirmed killed in an ongoing siege in the shopping mall by Somali militants.
"I feel the pain of every life we have lost, and share your grief at our nation's loss," Kenyatta said, calling his killed relatives "young, lovely people I personally knew and loved."
"They shall not get away with their despicable and beastly acts," Kenyatta said in an emotional speech to the nation.
"We will punish the masterminds swiftly and indeed very painfully." More than 1,000 people have been rescued from the mall, but between 10 to 15 attackers — reportedly including both men and women — remain in the building "as well as many unarmed, badly shaken, innocent civilians", Kenyatta added.
The Westgate mall (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Westgate-mall) is popular with wealthy Kenyans and expatriates, and was packed with around 1,000 shoppers when the gunmen marched in at midday Saturday, tossed grenades and sprayed automatic gunfire at terrified people.
Security agencies have long feared that the shopping centre could be targeted by al-Qaida-linked groups.
The attack was the worst in Nairobi since an al-Qaida bombing at the US embassy killed more than 200 people in 1998.
After a day and night of sometimes ferocious gun battles, security sources said police and soldiers had finally "pinned down" the gunmen. The Kenyan Red Cross appealed for blood donations and authorities urged residents to steer clear of the area.
"We are still battling with the attackers and our forces have managed to maroon the attackers on one of the floors," said Kenyan military spokesman Colonel Cyrus Oguna.
"We still do not know the number of hostages nor the attackers but we hope to bring this to an end today."
One teenage survivor recounted to AFP how he played dead to avoid being killed.
"I heard screams and gunshots all over the place. I got scared. I tried to run down the stairs and saw someone running towards the top, I ran back and hid behind one of the cars," 18-year-old Umar Ahmed said.
In the hours after the attack began, shocked people of all ages and races could be seen running from the mall, some clutching babies, while others crawled along walls to avoid stray bullets.
"They spoke something that seemed like Arabic or Somali," said a man who escaped the mall and gave his name only as Jay. "I saw people being executed after being asked to say something."
Kenyan police, troops and special forces then moved in and went shop-to-shop inside the shopping centre. Foreign security officials — from Israel, the United States and Britain — were also seen at the complex.
An AFPTV reporter said she saw at least 20 people rescued from a toy shop, some of them children taken away on stretchers.
Kenneth Kerich, who was shopping when the attack happened, described scenes of utter panic.
"I suddenly heard gunshots and saw everyone running around so we lied down. I saw two people who were lying down and bleeding, I think they were hit by bullets," he said.
"The gunmen tried to fire at my head but missed. I saw at least 50 people shot," mall employee Sudjar Singh told AFP.
Ghanaian poet Awoonor, 78, who was once his country's representative to the United Nations, was killed while shopping with his son, who was injured in the attack, Ghanaian officials said.
A spokesman for Shabaab said the attack was retaliation for Kenya's nearly two-year-old military presence in war-torn Somalia in support of the internationally backed Mogadishu government.
"We have warned Kenya of that attack but it ignored (us), still forcefully holding our lands ... while killing our innocent civilians," Shabaab spokesman Sheik Ali Mohamud Rage said in a statement.
"If you want Kenya in peace, it will not happen as long as your boys are in our lands."
The group also issued a string of statements via Twitter, one of them claiming that Muslims in the centre had been "escorted out by the Mujahideen before beginning the attack".
Police at the scene said a suspect wounded in the firefight had been detained and taken to hospital under armed guard, and later died of his injuries.
EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton said she was "appalled by the brutal attack against innocent citizens" and sent her "sincere condolences to those who have lost family, friends and loved ones".
Paris confirmed that two French citizens were among those killed in what it condemned as a "cowardly" attack. Canada's Prime Minister Stephen Harper said two Canadians, one of them a diplomat, were among the dead, while official Chinese news agency Xinhua said one Chinese woman was killed and her child wounded.
Two Indians and a South Korean were also among the dead. The United States said its citizens were reportedly among those injured by the "despicable" act while British Foreign Secretary William Hague said there were "undoubtedly British nationals caught up in this so we should be ready for that".
The UN security council condemned the attack "in the strongest possible terms"

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

As if things weren't bad enough for Somalis living in Kenya as it was, this is some great PR

[Bronco]

As if things weren't bad enough for Somalis living in Kenya as it was, this is some great PR

Great PR for who exactly?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

No one? Or al shabaab I guess, in case you forgot they were still around.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Good pr for Kenyans who hate Somalis, a population which isn't negligible from what I've read

[Red Commissar]

Great PR for who exactly?

He was being sarcastic, the Somali refugee population inside Kenya is already very marginalized and this will likely further it. There was a lot of scapegoating along these lines after the US embassy bombing in the 90s towards the broader Muslim community (you're making Kenya look bad to the world!). Kenya's economy as it is, it draws Somalis trying to leave the chaos in Somalia, but their increasing size has opened up the usual hate from nativist-type politics.

Kenya already has some ethnic and religious divides (while the last election was free of violence, the one before that was pretty bad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%9308_Kenyan_crisis)) so events like this don't help to that, lets demagogues take advantage of it and further sectarianism.

[adipocere]

Predictably, vomit inducing op-eds begin to be churned out.
Note that in this display of breathtaking vulgarity, the author is using the opportunity to promote her fascist fantasy novel.


Nairobi mall attack strikes against all of us: Column (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/09/22/nairobi-mall-attack-kenya-obama-al-shabaab-column/2850079/)
Louise Branson 4:45 p.m. EDT September 22, 2013
As on 9/11, terrorists are waging a war on our modern, democratic way of life. Today, we are all Kenyans.

Story Highlights


The same theme and grievances as 9/11 are woven through this horror.
I grew up in the region in the dying days of the colonial empire.
An imaginative future al-Shabaab attack on the U.S. is even the premise of a novel I am finishing.

It's the post-9/11 nightmare that Americans have been half expecting: al-Qaeda gunmen attack a shopping mall, take hostages, leave behind carnage and a sickening repeat question: "Why us?"
Over the weekend, that scenario happened. Not in America, but in the country where President Obama's father was born (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/24/obama-leaves-father-birthplace-kenya-off-itinerary-for-africa-trip/): Kenya (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/09/22/kenya-mall-shooting-al-shabab/2848905/). A glittering, up-market mall in the capital, Nairobi, has looked like a violent, blood-spattered Hollywood movie: heavily armed, well-trained gunmen dressed in black on a rampage; hostages; hundreds dead and injured; an utterly overwhelmed police force.
The same theme and grievances as 9/11 are woven through this horror. The gunmen are not from al-Qaeda; they are from a group known as al-Shabaab in Somalia, the country that neighbors Kenya. But the groups are affiliated (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/09/22/attack-on-nairobi-mall-kills-10-people/). They could almost be clones. Al-Shabaab for years has ruled and terrorized much of Somalia, meting out such sharia law punishment as beheadings (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/world/africa/nairobi-mall-shooting.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) and stoning women to death for adultery, even if the women had been raped (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/nov/02/somalia-gender).
Kenyan forces have spearheaded outside efforts to restore some order in Somalia and drive al-Shabaab out (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/world/africa/nairobi-mall-shooting.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0). They've been fairly successful. That is why Kenya is now under the al-Shabaab attack. This is just the latest among horrors that have included torching Christian churches (http://m.christianpost.com/news/attack-on-church-compound-in-kenya-kills-two-wounds-three-60952/) and killing tourists (http://metro.co.uk/2011/09/16/somali-government-judith-tebbutt-being-held-by-al-shabab-153260/).
President Obama's most effective and dramatic move would be to go to Nairobi. He is half-Kenyan (http://genealogy.about.com/od/aframertrees/p/barack_obama.htm). He has the status of a near-God there. His influence is incalculable. He could say what needs to be said to Kenyans, to al-Shabaab, to Americans and to the world: Kenyans need to stay strong and to keep forces in Somalia, not withdraw them as the attackers want; such attacks are painful and cowardly; the only way to fight them is by standing firm.
Somalia next Afghanistan?
Just as important: The fight is not just a Kenyan, or African, fight. Somalia could be the new Afghanistan. A lawless, fundamentalist Somalia could incubate a Somali Osama bin Laden (http://www.usatoday.com/topic/fe77ec69-7946-4650-aeb1-7418b2198130/osama-bin-laden/) and new attacks on the USA, just as Afghanistan protected and nurtured bin Laden and al-Qaeda.
For a decade and a half, the warning signs have been growing. Al-Qaeda blew up the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi in 1998. The truck bomb killed more than 200, and there was a simultaneous attack on the U.S. Embassy in neighboring Tanzania. An Israeli hotel (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/28/international/middleeast/28CND-KENYA.html?gwh=940ED9D2ADDD0B933AC9C6C33471F6B5) on the tourist beaches of the Indian Ocean was attacked more than a decade ago.
I grew up in the region in the dying days of the colonial empire and already sensed back then the religious and tribal forces that could be unleashed. An imaginative future al-Shabaab attack on the U.S. is even the premise of a novel I am finishing.
There is a catch to an Obama Kenya trip. A Catch-22.
Kenyan President Uhuru Kenyatta (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/03/08/kenya-presidential-elections-kenyatta/1974587/) is accused of war crimes for allegedly inciting violence after elections in 2007, in which more than 1,000 people died. His trial at the International Criminal Court is set for November (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-22985456). An Obama trip could be seen as supporting Kenyatta, undermining the charges.
Benefits of Obama visit
The benefit, though, would outweigh this risk. Obama could focus attention on the charges, too, and underscore how volatile and difficult the whole region is, and how much the U.S. needs to focus on it. Kenya has long been considered an oasis of stability on a violent continent. Kenyatta is the son of the revered first post-colonial president, Jomo Kenyatta (http://www.africa-confidential.com/whos-who-profile/id/389/).
The Nairobi shopping mall attack is heartbreaking. The stories could so easily be American stories. A popular radio host (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/world/africa/nairobi-mall-shooting.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&) killed where she had earlier posted photos onto her Instagram account. A respected, elderly poet and professor from Ghana (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2013/09/2013922131223284726.html) was also gunned down. As the days go by, there will be more victims identified, more grief at lives ended too violently, too soon, as they were on 9/11.
The message of the attackers could easily be imagined in an attack, say, on the Mall of the America (http://www.mallofamerica.com/). The attackers even called for Muslims (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/world/africa/nairobi-mall-shooting.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&) to run away. As on 9/11, they are attacking a modern, democratic way of life. After 9/11, the French newspaper Le Monde famously carried a headline: We Are All Americans (http://www.history.com/topics/reaction-to-9-11).
After the Nairobi attack, the message should be "We Are All Kenyans." Not just in our sympathy. But also in going all out to prevent another terrorist attack.
Leaving Somalia to al-Shabab is not an option.

[khad]

List of attackers provided by Al-Shabab's twitter before the account was locked:


Sayid N. from Kismayu, Somalia.

Zaki Jama C., from Hargeisa, Somalia

Saad D., from Damascus, Syria

Mohamed B., from Aleppo, Syria

Qasim Said M., Garissa, Kenya

Ismail G., from Helsinki, Finland

Ahmed Nasir S., from London, UK

Mustafa N., from Kansas City, US

Abdishakur Sheikh H., from Maine, US

Abdifatah Osman K., from Minneapolis, US

Ahmad Mohamed I., from Saint Paul, US

Abdikarem Ali M., from Illinois, US

Shafie D., from Tucson, US

Abdirazak M., from Ontario (Canada)

Eliko M., from Dagestan, Russia

Mohammed A., from Svalov, Sweden

Moulid A., from Sweden

http://ojihad.wordpress.com/2013/09/22/the-al-shabaab-terror-cell-that-attacked-westgate/

[Os Cangaceiros]

Mustafa N., from Kansas City, US

Abdishakur Sheikh H., from Maine, US

Abdifatah Osman K., from Minneapolis, US

Ahmad Mohamed I., from Saint Paul, US

Abdikarem Ali M., from Illinois, US

Shafie D., from Tucson, US


awwwwwk-waaaaaard...:unsure:

[Os Cangaceiros]

Death toll is over 60 now. One of the witnesses who was there described a really surreal scene with mall muzak playing over speakers, interspersed periodically with gunfire and screaming.

[bcbm]

awwwwwk-waaaaaard...:unsure:

its been known for awhile al shabbab was recruiting from within the somali ex pat population in the us i thought?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yeah, on the news tonight they said though that none of their foreign fighters had been used in operations outside of Somalia before now

[Devrim]

What makes you think that? The mall was partly targeted because it's popular with expats and foreign employees working in embassies etc.

It is what I would have imagined. We will know when we see who died. I saw three of the UK dead named, and two came from a Kenyan background. What I was objecting to though was the way that Adipocere immediately brought in his US-left concept of race into it, which seemed a bit mad to me. Unlike much of the US left seems to think, the world is not filled with 'white supremacists'. It just doesn't seem to fit in at all with the way nationalism and race works.

Hague made that statement because its his job. He would have done the same thing if it was somewhere where no-white UK citizens were in danger from Islamicist rebels. I don't know if he personally is a racist, but if he is (which is very possible) it would be more likely to be the same sort of racism that is prevalent in certain layers of the English middle classes. This was quite well summed up by one of Thatcher's friends defending her against allegations of prejudice, who replied 'Margret wasn't prejudiced. She disliked all foreigners equally.



A former British soldier said: "I personally touched the eyes of four people and they were dead. One of them was a child. It's carnage up there."Is it just me or does this guy sound completely fucking insane?

It is just you. It is quite common for people to close the eyes of the dead.

Devrim

[synthesis]

Yeah, but it almost sounds like he's bragging about it.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

That's just the effect that being interviewed has on some people, they feel the need to add some theatricality to their statements

[Nakidana]

Also we should always stand against violence done in the name of/justified by religious reactionary ideology.

The attack wasn't done in the name of "religious reactionary ideology". Al Shabaab have clearly stated (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/22/us-kenya-attack-president-idUSBRE98L09W20130922) they carried out the attack because of Kenya's intervention in Somalia.

It's just like 9/11 wasn't carried out because Islam.


Is it just me or does this guy sound completely fucking insane?

He could be checking for unconsciousness or closing their eyes in respect, as Devrim said.

But yeah, the wording is kinda weird. Checking for respiration and pulse is always a good first step before you start poking people in the eyes. :laugh:

[MattDoe]

The attack wasn't done in the name of "religious reactionary ideology". Al Shabaab have clearly stated they carried out the attack because of Kenya's intervention in Somalia.

Then why did the Al-Shabaab Group specifically target non-Muslims alone and avoid targetting Muslims, if they did not do it in the name of Islam? Their doing so indicates that they were heavily motivated by religion. That also goes for the targetting of the Christian Church in Pakistan recently, leaving literally 80 innocent Christians dead. And what was the Taliban's excuse? "Drones". Even drones don't kill as many as 80 in one morning. I don't think anyone here can honestly say that "Islam had nothing to do with it".

I'm really tired of seeing fellow leftists constantly shy away from calling out Islamofascism. Why haven't moderate Muslims spoken out and condemned these atrocities yet, as well as other atrocities carried out in their name? Perhaps because of the fear that they'll be targetted next by extremists as a consequence?

And sure, the US is engaged in some wars that we strongly disapprove of and the US ought to mind its own business, but you can't deny that Islam as a religion is "not the problem" in that region. Besides, our military activities are not as heavily focused in Africa anyway, just the Middle East, so people can't blame it on "US imperialism" this time.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Then why did the Al-Shabaab Group specifically target non-Muslims alone and avoid targetting Muslims, if they did not do it in the name of Islam? Their doing so indicates that they were heavily motivated by religion. That also goes for the targetting of the Christian Church in Pakistan recently, leaving literally 80 innocent Christians dead. And what was the Taliban's excuse? "Drones". Even drones don't kill as many as 80 in one morning. I don't think anyone here can honestly say that "Islam had nothing to do with it".

I'm really tired of seeing fellow leftists constantly shy away from calling out Islamofascism. Why haven't moderate Muslims spoken out and condemned these atrocities yet, as well as other atrocities carried out in their name? Perhaps because of the fear that they'll be targetted next by extremists as a consequence?

And sure, the US is engaged in some wars that we strongly disapprove of and the US ought to mind its own business, but you can't deny that Islam as a religion is "not the problem" in that region. Besides, our military activities are not as heavily focused in Africa anyway, just the Middle East, so people can't blame it on "US imperialism" this time.

What is this reactionary shit? Obviously religion plays a part in terrorism but imperialism plays a bigger role in creating bodies willing to do this kind of idiocy. Muslims condemn acts of terrorism daily, but they don't get airtime on fox news or whatever cable channel you're glued to. Fuck off back to reddit asshole.

[Nakidana]

Then why did the Al-Shabaab Group specifically target non-Muslims alone and avoid targetting Muslims, if they did not do it in the name of Islam? Their doing so indicates that they were heavily motivated by religion.

Just because they didn't target Muslims it doesn't mean they launched the attack because of "Islam". They're Salafist, so chances are they thought it in accordance with their ideology not to hurt fellow Muslims while they committed this revenge action as a response to Kenya's intervention in Somalia.


That also goes for the targetting of the Christian Church in Pakistan recently, leaving literally 80 innocent Christians dead.

The situation in Pakistan is completely different from that in Somalia, and so the justification given by Jundullah was also different from that given by Al-Shabaab. Jundullah's Ahmed Marwat directly stated that: "They are the enemies of Islam, therefore we target them...We will continue our attacks on non-Muslims on Pakistani land.", while Al-Shabaab to my knowledge said nothing about Islam, but just talked about Kenya's intervention.

The fact that you throw all of these groups in the same basket without any consideration as to their history and the material basis for their existence just shows that you've taken on a simplified Islamophobic worldview on par with the worst of the right-wing shit that came out post 9/11.

Are you of the opinion that 9/11 came out of nowhere? That it was simply a result of a bunch of Muslims reading the Quran one time to many?


And what was the Taliban's excuse?

Excuse of what? 9/11? lol


"Drones". Even drones don't kill as many as 80 in one morning.

No, they kill many, many more over time. Small children and whole weddings have been taken out by drones. But hey, who cares, none of them were wearing jeans or tshirts, and what were they doing around those raghead terrorists anyway, right?


I don't think anyone here can honestly say that "Islam had nothing to do with it".

As stated above, I don't think "Islam" was in any way the main reason this attack happened. All it did was "modify" the attack, the root cause was not some foreign "Islam" entity poisoning the minds of the attackers.


I'm really tired of seeing fellow leftists constantly shy away from calling out Islamofascism.

And I'm sick and tired of supposed leftists using the rhetoric and talking points of the far-right. Islamofascism? Really? That shitty neologism invented by neocons and used by shining leftist beacons such as Christopher Hitchens, Clifford May and GWB to drum up support for war in the ME? You're damn right I shy away from calling it out.


Why haven't moderate Muslims spoken out and condemned these atrocities yet, as well as other atrocities carried out in their name?

What the hell, is this Revleft or the BNP forums? Moderate Muslims shouldn't need to condemn these atrocities because anyone with a single functioning brain cell, who isn't a bloody racist, knows they support no such thing. Just like ordinary people of other beliefs.

Are you a troll from Stormfront or something?


Perhaps because of the fear that they'll be targetted next by extremists as a consequence?

They're already targeted, not only by fellow Muslims but also by the Western military apparatus.


And sure, the US is engaged in some wars that we strongly disapprove of and the US ought to mind its own business,

I don't just strongly disapprove, I actively disagree and work against those wars.


but you can't deny that Islam as a religion is "not the problem" in that region.

I do deny that. I don't think Islam is anywhere near the main problem. Take Iraq for example, the shit really hit the fan because the US invaded, not because people suddenly realized "hey, wait a minute, we're Muslims, we should start wrecking our country!".


Besides, our military activities are not as heavily focused in Africa anyway, just the Middle East, so people can't blame it on "US imperialism" this time.

Who's blaming US imperialism, I was talking about Kenya's "intervention". And btw the US has actually been involved in Somalia.

EDIT: I just noticed MattDoe only has a single post, it is entirely possible he's just a troll. What is laughable to me is that people have actually thanked him, what a joke.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Then why did the Al-Shabaab Group specifically target non-Muslims alone and avoid targetting Muslims, if they did not do it in the name of Islam? Their doing so indicates that they were heavily motivated by religion. That also goes for the targetting of the Christian Church in Pakistan recently, leaving literally 80 innocent Christians dead. And what was the Taliban's excuse? "Drones". Even drones don't kill as many as 80 in one morning. I don't think anyone here can honestly say that "Islam had nothing to do with it".

I'm really tired of seeing fellow leftists constantly shy away from calling out Islamofascism. Why haven't moderate Muslims spoken out and condemned these atrocities yet, as well as other atrocities carried out in their name? Perhaps because of the fear that they'll be targetted next by extremists as a consequence?

And sure, the US is engaged in some wars that we strongly disapprove of and the US ought to mind its own business, but you can't deny that Islam as a religion is "not the problem" in that region. Besides, our military activities are not as heavily focused in Africa anyway, just the Middle East, so people can't blame it on "US imperialism" this time.

This is one of those posts where you disagree more and more as you read through it.

To say that the problem in the middle-east and central Asia is Islam from Islam alone is complete and utter bullshit. US imperialism has been fundamental in propagating islamic extremism, what with it's former guaranteed arming of Syrian rebels, it's close ties with Saudi Arabia and the oil confederacies, it's utter elimination of anything that even remotely resembles leftist movements (from Mossadegh to the communists in Afghanistan to - I'll say it painfully - Ba'athists in Iraq and soon Syria) and it's historic funding of the Taliban. I know someone pretty old who used to live in Syria, and when he was a kid, Christians and muslims would live next to one another, give one another fresh fruit and invite each family over for dinner! There was no fucking 'inherent religious hostility'! The islamism witnessed today didn't come from the 'inherent evils of the Quran' (which i'll admit is a disgusting book along with all of the other abrahamic texts; at least it promoted critical thinking to an extent), or because islam 'naturally transforms into an extremist entity' - it was full-on manufactured by, as you so repugnantly try to play down, American imperialism.

[bcbm]

Then why did the Al-Shabaab Group specifically target non-Muslims alone and avoid targetting Muslims, if they did not do it in the name of Islam? Their doing so indicates that they were heavily motivated by religion. That also goes for the targetting of the Christian Church in Pakistan recently, leaving literally 80 innocent Christians dead. And what was the Taliban's excuse? "Drones". Even drones don't kill as many as 80 in one morning. I don't think anyone here can honestly say that "Islam had nothing to do with it".

are they reactionary religious extremists? yes. is this their sole motivation? no. you could make an argument as to how much the religious aspect is a factor more than more down-to-earth concerns, but i think a material analysis of why these groups have come in to existence, expanded and operated would be a more worthwhile endeavor.


Islamofascism.

groooooan


Why haven't moderate Muslims spoken out and condemned these atrocities yet, as well as other atrocities carried out in their name?

um everytime this happens there are tons of 'moderate muslims' who condemn these actions, explain that this isn't what islam is about, etc. which is actually unfortunate because i don't think it is their responsibility for the vast majority to have to explain time and time again that they are not responsible or down with a tiny fringe sect.


but you can't deny that Islam as a religion is "not the problem" in that region.

well considering how many muslims there are in that region and how few actually go shoot up malls and the like, i have to take the unreasonable view that 'the problem' might be something else.


Besides, our military activities are not as heavily focused in Africa anyway, just the Middle East, so people can't blame it on "US imperialism" this time.

um us has been involved in africa for quite some time and in the last ten years this has expanded exponentially. other european powers and israel also have a number of interests in africa. but in this particular instance kenya was targeted for its involvement in somalia.


I just noticed MattDoe only has a single post, it is entirely possible he's just a troll. What is laughable to me is that people have actually thanked him, what a joke.

yep

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Yeah can the two people who thanked that post explain what they liked so much about it?

[Yuppie Grinder]

Death toll is over 60 now. One of the witnesses who was there described a really surreal scene with mall muzak playing over speakers, interspersed periodically with gunfire and screaming.

That sounds very similar to Dawn of the Dead.

[adipocere]

Then why did the Al-Shabaab Group specifically target non-Muslims alone and avoid targetting Muslims, if they did not do it in the name of Islam?

While I don't doubt this to be true, that Muslims may have been deliberately spared, I would imagine this had as much to do with shared culture and ethnic ties as religion. Especially when you consider the whole Kenya invading Somalia in 2011 thing...


Their doing so indicates that they were heavily motivated by religion. That also goes for the targetting of the Christian Church in Pakistan recently, leaving literally 80 innocent Christians dead. And what was the Taliban's excuse? "Drones". Even drones don't kill as many as 80 in one morning. I don't think anyone here can honestly say that "Islam had nothing to do with it". Cherry picking across the planet for your Islamophobic argument. Plenty of mosques get blown up as well as randomly targeted people. The nature of the violence is overwhelmingly political with a common thread being the ubiquitous presence of certain Western and Mid East actors whose overarching aim is to sow chaos and destabilization in areas that are perceived as a threat or hindrance.


I'm really tired of seeing fellow leftists constantly shy away from calling out Islamofascism. Why haven't moderate Muslims spoken out and condemned these atrocities yet, as well as other atrocities carried out in their name? Perhaps because of the fear that they'll be targetted next by extremists as a consequence? Why should minority groups always have to apologize for the ignorant notions of the majority? I think leftists "shy away from calling out Islamofascism" because the only evidence we have for this is the hysterical bellowing of bigots and jingos.


And sure, the US is engaged in some wars that we strongly disapprove of and the US ought to mind its own business, but you can't deny that Islam as a religion is "not the problem" in that region.Yes, absolutely, I can deny that. It's not the problem.


Besides, our military activities are not as heavily focused in Africa anyway, just the Middle East, so people can't blame it on "US imperialism" this time.Categorically False. Just because you are ignorant of something doesn't mean that it's not happening quietly on an enormous scale (http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175743/tomgram%3A_nick_turse%2C_africom%27s_gigantic_%22s mall_footprint%22/).

[goalkeeper]

Of course claiming acts like this result purely from Islam is silly but I don't see how the ideology of Islamism can be divorced from this. Trying to frame this as merely a response to Kenya's military involvement in Somalia would be to completely ignore the content of Al-Shabaab. People on rev left seem all too happy to celebrate the ideological leanings of militant groups when it suits them, whether its nominally Marxist armed groups in Europe, Asia, Latin America and Africa in the mid to late 20th century or Maoists in South Asia today, but when some militant group has a deeply reactionary ideological content the importance of this goes away and instead the elusive "material conditions" is wheeled out. I don't think anyone who has any idea about Al-Shabaab could so high handily dismiss that the ideology of Islamism informs their actions immeasurably. The group says the attack is carried out in response to Kenya's military entailments in Somalia- ok, then it is. But this fits into the wider world view of Al-Shabaab. They, informed by the ideology of Islamism, are unhappy with Kenyan forces in Somalia because they are non-Muslim which is therefore an affront to their imagined global Ummah and is a barrier to them being able to impose their imagined hellhole of a an ideology on Somali's (the majority of whom I presume don't want it).

Of course US Imperialism has played a key role in the proliferation of Islamist ideology in certain parts of the world (with the obvious examples such as it's role in Afghanistan in the 1980's already mentioned), but I don't think we can reduce the phenomenon of Islamism as simply some sort of direct reaction. Islamism is an ideology and worldview in its own right. It is something some people truly believe in. It is pretty dehumanising to reduce people who adopt this ideology as just objects reacting to external events.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

are unhappy with Kenyan forces in Somalia because they are non-Muslim

Sure it is not the, uh, fact that they invaded?

[goalkeeper]

Sure it is not the, uh, fact that they invaded?

On a basic level, yes, but I was addressing the significance of this and what it means in Al-Shabaab's world view. Their world view obviously informs them of why the invasion is to be opposed and wrong, the same way (what I assume) is our mutual antipathy for imperialism (and capitalism) leads to us to both oppose certain invasions and occupations.

[goalkeeper]

its been known for awhile al shabbab was recruiting from within the somali ex pat population in the us i thought?

Yeah there was documentary produced by the British journalist Rageh Omar on such recruitment in Minnesota (can't remember which tv channel he produced it for). The impression I got though was that after a couple of young men went and (inevitably) didn't return the reality of death hit most who entertained such ideas and the recruitment pool dried up rather quickly.

[Os Cangaceiros]

IIRC al-Shabaab gained prominence from the ashes of the Islamic Courts Union which provided a certain measure of calm over Mogadishu at least, for a period of time before it was toppled militarily. So the invasion didn't create the reactionary beliefs but probably pronounced the militancy of what otherwise might have just been a milieu of Islamist nationalists. The invasion saw moderates lose power while some of the more extreme elements gained prominence.

[goalkeeper]

IIRC al-Shabaab gained prominence from the ashes of the Islamic Courts Union which provided a certain measure of calm over Mogadishu at least, for a period of time before it was toppled militarily. So the invasion didn't create the reactionary beliefs but probably pronounced the militancy of what otherwise might have just been a milieu of Islamist nationalists. The invasion saw moderates lose power while some of the more extreme elements gained prominence.

They were the more radical youth wing of the ICU but I think they have diverged a bit ideologically from then, with their outreach (or being reached out to) other international Islamist groups etc

[Nakidana]

On a basic level, yes, but I was addressing the significance of this and what it means in Al-Shabaab's world view. Their world view obviously informs them of why the invasion is to be opposed and wrong, the same way (what I assume) is our mutual antipathy for imperialism (and capitalism) leads to us to both oppose certain invasions and occupations.

:confused: I don't think Al-Shabaab gives a shit about the beliefs of the invasion force, I think they're just pissed some country (Kenya) sent forces to fight them. If Kenya had sent a Muslim force I think Al-Shabaab would be just as much opposed to it.

It's not like Muslims don't fight each other you know. Islamists are killing each other all over the ME. In Pakistan the TTP have been engaged in a 6-year long conflict with the army and both forces are very big on Islam.

Sure, Kenya having a majority of Christians might've been used as a morale booster when launching the attack, but I don't think it had much if anything to do with why they did it. In fact I don't think Al-Shabaab ever mentioned the beliefs of the invasion force or the beliefs of the people of Kenya in their statements. Checking the Wikipedia article on the attack there is not a single mention of Christianity or of non-Muslims being used as justification.

Why was Westgate shopping mall chosen? Probably because it was an easy, high profile target in a city home to numerous UN programs. The same UN which had approved AMISOM, much to Al-Shabaab's chagrin.

[goalkeeper]

:confused: I don't think Al-Shabaab gives a shit about the beliefs of the invasion force, I think they're just pissed some country (Kenya) sent forces to fight them. If Kenya had sent a Muslim force I think Al-Shabaab would be just as much opposed to it.

It's not like Muslims don't fight each other you know. Islamists are killing each other all over the ME. In Pakistan the TTP have been engaged in a 6-year long conflict with the army and both forces are very big on Islam.

Sure, Kenya having a majority of Christians might've been used as a morale booster when launching the attack, but I don't think it had much if anything to do with why they did it. In fact I don't think Al-Shabaab ever mentioned the beliefs of the invasion force or the beliefs of the people of Kenya in their statements. Checking the Wikipedia article on the attack there is not a single mention of Christianity or of non-Muslims being used as justification.

Why was Westgate shopping mall chosen? Probably because it was an easy, high profile target in a city home to numerous UN programs. The same UN which had approved AMISOM, much to Al-Shabaab's chagrin.

You clearly have never bothered to read Islamist literature.

[goalkeeper]

I thought it would be generally accepted to say that Islamist view the world through a binary prism of Muslims vs. Non-Muslims. I hardly think Al-Shabaab has too much of a concern for Westphalian notions of sovereignty.

[khad]

The current leader of Al-Shabab, the man known as Godane, trained in Afghanistan, so it's a bit disingenuous to claim that Al-Shabab in its current form is a homegrown outfit. Before him, their operations commander was guy Fazul Mohammed, a Kenyan national appointed by Osama bin Laden, and many of their chief financiers come from the gulf states. The roster of attackers in the latest mall incident only reinforces this observation.

There was a more nationalist wing of Al-Shabab, but they were suppressed and/or exterminated by the "internationalist" column following the merger of Al-Shabab and Al-Qaeda. You know the drill--Chechnya, Mali, etc.

I don't know if you've seen Al-Shabab's official Minnesota Martyrs propaganda video, but it is noteworthy, if only for demonstrative purposes. In 40 minutes of this shite, they, the Al-Shabab recruiters and the "Minnesota Martyrs" themselves, never once make a nationalist appeal to free the Somali "fatherland" or to the history of the Somali people or to Somali national self-determination. In fact, they make constant reference to "Muslim lands" and "lands of jihad," the vast majority of their material being references to the Western crusade against Iraq and Afghanistan. When they do talk about their operations in Somalia, they label other Somalis (presumably factions aligned with the nominal government) as "Ethiopia-backed grave worshipers." They never once refer to themselves as Somalis, and Somali nationhood and identity is so low on the list of priorities that even blowing shit up is seen as more of a motivation. (One of the three Minnesota Martyrs exclaims, "This is the real Disneyland!")


It's not like Muslims don't fight each other you know. Islamists are killing each other all over the ME. In Pakistan the TTP have been engaged in a 6-year long conflict with the army and both forces are very big on Islam.

Groups like Al-Shabab have a convenient answer to all that, provided for in their recruiting materials. They seek to replace the "corrupt" leaders of the Muslim lands with "Men of God." The beauty of Takfirism is that anyone can declare anyone an apostate without bothering with official channels.

A Sufi's take on Takfirism:

kzlVODquxJ8

[Five Year Plan]

I'm sure this will provide more fodder for the right-wing haters thinking there is a war between Christians and Muslims.

[Nakidana]

I don't deny their Salafist ideology, and I'm sure it's the basis of their modus operandi and the way in which the attacks were carried out, but the fact of the matter is that the root cause is Kenya's intervention. How else do you account for their statement following the attack? For all the talk about global jihad against any and all "kafirs", the fact remains they launched the attack in Nairobi. Same is true if you take the July 2010 Kampala attacks, also ordered by Godane. Again the reason given was intervention, this time by Uganda.

[khad]

I don't deny their Salafist ideology, and I'm sure it's the basis of their modus operandi and the way in which the attacks were carried out, but the fact of the matter is that the root cause is Kenya's intervention. How else do you account for their statement following the attack? For all the talk about global jihad against any and all "kafirs", the fact remains they launched the attack in Nairobi. Same is true if you take the July 2010 Kampala attacks, also ordered by Godane. Again the reason given was intervention, this time by Uganda.
Yeah, Godane, the guy who studied sharia in Pakistan with a Saudi scholarship and took up arms in Afghanistan did so because of Kenyan intervention. They also recruit Takfiris from around the globe by appealing to their allegiance to Somali national self determination..

I've already sifted through hours of their propaganda for you, but I have little reason to subject myself to more of this bullshit as you are apparently incapable of reading.

What Godane said:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/09/26/shabab-kenya-nairobi-qaeda/2876993/


"Make your choice today and withdraw all your forces," said Ahmed Abdi Mohamed Godane, who goes by his nom de guerre Mukhtar Abu Zubayr, in a new statement posted on the Internet late Wednesday. "Otherwise be prepared for an abundance of blood that will be spilt in your country, economic downfall and displacement."

Al-Shabab said the Nairobi mall attack was not only directed at Kenya, but was also "a retribution against the Western states that supported the Kenyan invasion and are spilling the blood of innocent Muslims in order to pave the way for their mineral companies," according to the statement from Godane.Note how he states "Muslims" and not "Somalis," as much of Somalia is inhabited by Sufis and traditionalist apostates who are as much targets of jihad as Western crusader forces. Your ridiculous contention that Al-Shabab is some national defense force is nothing short of asinine, as their most celebrated battlefield successes, recounted time and again, were their victories against the Somali "grave-worshipers."

[Nakidana]

hehe, well please don't sift through any more videos on my account, I certainly don't want to be responsible for any psychological trauma it might inflect on you.

I never said Al-Shabaab saw themselves as a national defense force, and I never denied they were Salafist. I just made the simple argument that the reason this attack happened was because Kenya intervened in Somalia. Are you of the opinion that if Kenya hadn't intervened, Al-Shabaab would still have carried out the attack?

[khad]

Kenya shopping mall attack: Nairobi hostages were tortured before they were killed, says police doctor (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/kenya-shopping-mall-attack-nairobi-hostages-were-tortured-before-they-were-killed-says-police-doctor-8842509.html)

Catrina Stewart
Nairobi Thursday 26 September 2013

A police doctor scouring Nairobi’s Westgate mall for bodies after a four-day siege by Islamist gunmen that claimed dozens of lives has said victims were tortured before they died, according to a Kenyan newspaper.

“Those are not allegations. Those are f****** truths,” the doctor, a forensics expert, told The Star newspaper. “They removed balls, eyes, ears, nose. They get your hand and sharpen it like a pencil then they tell you to write your name with the blood. They drive knives inside a child’s body. Actually, if you look at all the bodies, unless those ones that were escaping, fingers are cut by pliers, the noses are ripped by pliers.”

The information could not be independently verified, but William Pike, the British editor of The Star, said the reporters working on the story had been given similar accounts from other sources. “We have [the source] on a recording,” Mr Pike said. “He was talking very graphically, and he was very angry.”

The horrifying details of what may be the last moments of some of the hostages at the hands of terrorists from Somalia’s al-Shabaab movement come amid mounting public anger over the authorities silence about the details of the siege. Many questions remain, such as what happened to the potentially dozens of hostages still unaccounted for? What happened to the attackers? And what caused parts of Westgate to collapse in the final hours of the siege?

Police have asked for patience as they begin the painstaking work of gathering evidence and searching for bodies, with Interior Minister Joseph Ole Lenku warning it could take up to a week to complete the search. He has said that an “insignificant” number of bodies are still trapped.

Gunmen armed with machine guns and grenades stormed the Westgate mall on Saturday lunchtime, shooting indiscriminately, and killing at least 61 people. A further six security officers died in attempts to rout the militants. During the siege, rescuers evacuated many survivors, but reports suggested hostages were being held by militants. Kenya’s Red Cross says that 71 people are still listed as missing.

Ghoulish accounts on the fate of the hostages have circulated Nairobi and there have been claims that the military was forced to blow up part of the Westgate complex not just to bring the siege to an end, but to end the appalling suffering of hostages amid reports that hostages were raped, and others beheaded and their heads thrown out of the windows.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

That's a chilling article but I'm always skeptical of these kinds of claims until they are confirmed. The part about them intentionally destroying the building to end the hostage's suffering is especially troubling.

[khad]

Nairobi Westgate Mall Siege: 'Islamist Militants on the Loose' in Kenya (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/508906/20130925/kenya-nairobi-westgate-mall-siege-alshabaab-alqaida.htm)

Kenyan forces arrest 11 people suspected to have been involved in al-Shabaab siege in Nairobi mall.

By Vasudevan Sridharan : Subscribe to Vasudevan's RSS feed | September 25, 2013 10:37 AM GMT

Some of the Islamist attackers who stormed the Westgate mall in Kenyan capital Nairobi are suspected to be on the loose as a few of them are said to have escaped while the military-led operation was on.

The al-Shabaab assailants backed by al-Qaida laid a three-day siege on the Israeli-owned luxury shopping complex, leading to the death of at least 67 people.

Although the Kenyan authorities have claimed full control of the plaza following the onslaught, witness and police reports suggest the repercussions of the attack could be far from over.

An onlooker told the New York Times that one of the armed assailants quickly tore off his clothes and changed his outfit before merging into the crowd when the Kenyan forces were launching their anti-terror operation in the mall.

Kenyan security forces are suspecting two women, who were allegedly commanding the attackers in the shopping centre, had also managed to escape while the insurgents were battling the forces.

Many witnesses have been quoted saying that some of the hostage-takers were not Africans but foreigners.

Kenyan President Uhuru Kenyatta said five al-Shabaab militants were killed in the stand-off and 11 others involved in the siege have been arrested. It is still unclear how many of the detained suspects were gunmen who were inside the shopping complex, and how many were accomplices.

[greenforest]

Judging by the many photo galleries there appears to be a fairly large number of people who were present who are arguably not of Kenyan descent. I'm not saying that these people Hague was referring to were necessarily white, or that all of the blonde haired blue eyed people fleeing in the photos are British but...


I really think this has something to do with "why we care"

Why do you think al-Jazeera, al-Arabiya, and other media outside the Western world disproportionately covered the Kenyan attack?

[greenforest]

Note how he states "Muslims" and not "Somalis," as much of Somalia is inhabited by Sufis and traditionalist apostates who are as much targets of jihad as Western crusader forces. Your ridiculous contention that Al-Shabab is some national defense force is nothing short of asinine, as their most celebrated battlefield successes, recounted time and again, were their victories against the Somali "grave-worshipers."

What is a Western crusader force?

[greenforest]

The attack wasn't done in the name of "religious reactionary ideology". Al Shabaab have clearly stated they carried out the attack because of Kenya's intervention in Somalia.

It's just like 9/11 wasn't carried out because Islam.



He could be checking for unconsciousness or closing their eyes in respect, as Devrim said.

But yeah, the wording is kinda weird. Checking for respiration and pulse is always a good first step before you start poking people in the eyes. :laugh:

Are abortion clinic bombers bombing for religion or politics? How do you determine one from the other?

[greenforest]

Cherry picking across the planet for your Islamophobic argument. Plenty of mosques get blown up as well as randomly targeted people. The nature of the violence is overwhelmingly political with a common thread being the ubiquitous presence of certain Western and Mid East actors whose overarching aim is to sow chaos and destabilization in areas that are perceived as a threat or hindrance.

What was 'cherry-picked' or 'Islamophobic' about the argument?

The double suicide bombing against the church in Pakistan happened the same day as the mall siege.

Pointing out churches are bombed due to the religious ideology of the attackers is also not 'Islamophobic'.

Mosques are indeed attacked, too. How is this a countervailing point? The attackers bombing mosques are cut from the same ideological cloth as the ones bombing churches.

Do you think anyone is arguing mosque bombings by extremists does not stem from religious ideology?

[khad]

What is a Western crusader force?
What is with these inane questions? It's in their fucking recruitment video. Watch it yourself if you care enough, idiot.

[greenforest]

What is with these inane questions? It's in their fucking recruitment video. Watch it yourself if you care enough, idiot.

So you adopt the rhetoric of religious fanatics and are surprised when questioned?

[khad]

So you adopt the rhetoric of religious fanatics and are surprised when questioned?
LOL, just because I neglected to put quotations around the phrase in my haste, you attack me for arguing a position that is more or less in accord with your own statements.

Congratulations for outing yourself, troll.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

There is a theory kicking around that the Westgate attack was, at least in part, some sort of retaliation for Obama backing away from bombing Syria. A recent article in Counterpunch mentioned this.

I don't think this is too likely but...

[khad]

There is a theory kicking around that the Westgate attack was, at least in part, some sort of retaliation for Obama backing away from bombing Syria. A recent article in Counterpunch mentioned this.

I don't think this is too likely but...
I wouldn't discount the possiblity, since, as I said, there is very little in their recruiting materials on Somalia itself. The current Al-Shabab has a very international orientation. It's very difficult to ascribe nationalist motivations to an organization that does not espouse generally accepted definitions of nation-as-territory and nation-as-people.

[Nakidana]

Are abortion clinic bombers bombing for religion or politics? How do you determine one from the other?

Both, which they sometimes are.

Why are you asking so many questions? Are you genuinely curious? Why do you make so many posts? Why don't you collect all your questions in a single post? Is this guy a Marxist, Salafist, or an Orthodox Jew?: :marx:

[greenforest]

Both, which they sometimes are.

Why are you asking so many questions? Are you genuinely curious? Why do you make so many posts? Why don't you collect all your questions in a single post? Is this guy a Marxist, Salafist, or an Orthodox Jew?: :marx:

It's not really easy separating the religious dynamics from purely political motivations for terrorism. I can't think of any violent acts where religion wasn't a factor when a religious terrorist carried out some attack.

For al-Shabaab, I consider whether a non-religious or other-religious group would have carried out the attack in Kenya for the same reasons, and even if the situation would have escalated to the point of seizing a mall b/c foreign forces entered Somalia, b/c al-Shabaab seized territory and fought the government in their quest to establish a religious theocracy.