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blackemma
14th January 2004, 21:49
I posted this on Flag a bit ago and got some good responses, but I thought I'd take into some more opinions.

I was wondering what people's thoughts were on various symbols used by leftists and what they considered their meaning to be. Off the top of my head, I'd ask about the 1) the red flag 2) the black flag with the red star 3) red backgroup with black star 4) the red star itself 5) the screaming black cat and 6) the red and black flag with the two colours being divided diagonally and 7) the red and black with the two colours being divided horizontally. Any other symbols that tend to spark debate as to their use are also encouraged to be discussed.

As my understanding goes the red flag is the flag of the labour movement, which would include Marxism, anarchism, labour parties, and so forth. The black flag with the red star is the flag of the Zapatista movement in Chiapas, Mexico. The red backdrop with the black star belongs to the same group. The red star itself raises more debate and last I was told it was the symbol of those fighting on the sides of the Reds in the Russian Civil War and was later adopted by the Bolsheviks. If this is true then the red star is equally the property - pardon the word - of anarchists and various populists and not just Russian-style Communists. The screaming black cat - used by the IWW and the CNT as well as other trade-unionists - is the symbol of revolutionary syndicalism as I understand it. The red and black flag divided diagonally is the symbol of anarcho-syndicalism while divided horizontally it represents Latin American revolution, according to a self-described Latin American revolutionary I met at a protest. I've also seen the black star used but I'm not sure how much that's caught on and whether or not it has any real meaning other than it looks good.

Is this post somewhat idiosyncratic? Perhaps. I suppose that when using images in a symbolic way I like to understand their meaning. It would be unfortunate if someone was unaware of the political associations with the swastika for instance and was using it solely as a spiritual symbol. Of course, it's not likely that such extreme examples are commonplace, but I would think that many anarchists would be reluctant to use a symbol of the Leninists and vice versa. Most of all I like being able to understand the meaning of things when they appear.

Help?

commie kg
15th January 2004, 01:51
I'd say that most of what you put is correct, and I'll add a few things:

The red star I believe was used by the Russian military even before the revolution. I remember reading that somewhere.

And the horizontally divided red/black flag is also used by guerrilla groups in Africa, not just Latin America.

Guest1
15th January 2004, 05:31
I'm also not sure that the red star on a black background is originally a zapatista symbol, though they may have adopted it. I'm pretty sure it was around before.

Also, I think the zapatistas go with the flag with zapata's skeleton riding a horse. at least that's what I recall. he's even wearinga sombrero :P

SonofRage
15th January 2004, 06:28
I like this one. It's probably the closest graphical representation of my ideology.

synthesis
15th January 2004, 06:52
Personally, I think the hammer and sickle is the most controversial in terms of usage. I have been told on several occasions that I should not use the hammer and sickle in my avatar because I do not believe in Leninism. Personally, I think any movement which attempts to unite the proletariat and peasantry in revolutionary struggle is entitled to use the symbol.

My real flag, of course, is that of the 21st Century Socialist.

ÑóẊîöʼn
15th January 2004, 07:47
I'm interested to see what the cat with it's back arched means.

Monty Cantsin
15th January 2004, 07:54
very interesting topic have you guys got anylinks to sites on this kind of thing. hammer and sickle i really do like the idea of unitying the proletariat and peasantry to bar that it had been connected with the ussr.

Monty Cantsin
15th January 2004, 07:55
one more thing, i've seen alot of yellow flages with a pic of che does anyone no that stands for?

Bolshevika
15th January 2004, 16:03
Here's one I like and think is clever http://1stopkorea.com/images/nk-kim-statue-hammer-sickle-brush.jpg

The hammer-sickle and brush to represent the unity amongst the proletariat, peasantry, and intellectual.

ernestolynch
15th January 2004, 16:12
Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 10:49 PM
The red star itself raises more debate and last I was told it was the symbol of those fighting on the sides of the Reds in the Russian Civil War and was later adopted by the Bolsheviks. If this is true then the red star is equally the property - pardon the word - of anarchists and various populists and not just Russian-style Communists.
Wha' the fuck? :unsure: :huh:

Misodoctakleidist
15th January 2004, 16:49
I thought the five-point star sybolised the unity of the proleatariate in five continents.

commie kg
15th January 2004, 17:03
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 09:49 AM
I thought the five-point star sybolised the unity of the proleatariate in five continents.
It does, but it was used by the Russian military before the revolution, under a different meaning I'd imagine.


My real flag, of course, is that of the 21st Century Socialist.

I really think that the 21st Century Socialist idea is a good one, and it wasn't really afforded enough attention by members here.

It'd be cool to actually have that flag made.

Y2A
15th January 2004, 17:07
Alright I know the "red" symbolizes the blood of the workers that died for the revolution but what does the star symoblize?

Edit: Oh sorry (posted this before Misodoctakleidist explained).

Soviet power supreme
15th January 2004, 20:44
The hammer-sickle and brush to represent the unity amongst the proletariat, peasantry, and intellectual

Yeah I also like the symbol of DPRK.
http://www.sunpoint.net/~solidkom/kuvia/Korea-Pjongjang07.jpg

Anarchists had the red flag as their symbol at first but they later adopted the black.The black symbols the death,the plight of the people, but it also symbols the beauty.

blackemma
15th January 2004, 21:17
Thanks for all the info. A lot of it was very interesting.

Couple points:

1) I was unaware that the Russian army used the red star prior to the Bolshevik takeover. It had been my understanding that Trotsky had brought the red star to the red army. Whether or not the volunteers used it before or after this is another interesting point, but I was convinced it had its roots in the revolution. After all, wasn't that why there was all the fuss about the modern, Russian army bringing it back? Bringing back a communist symbol?

2) Could someone please explain to me the 21st Century Socialist idea?

3) I like the 'Green Anarchy' symbol. Where did you find it?

4) What's the final verdict on the hammer and sickle? Leninist or no?

Deniz Gezmis
15th January 2004, 21:52
I once heard that the five pointed Red star symbolizes the five main groups in a communist society. The army , The peasants, The workers, The youth and the intellectuals.

canikickit
15th January 2004, 21:54
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 10:17 PM
2) Could someone please explain to me the 21st Century Socialist idea?
Do a search for that in chit chat.

Germanator
15th January 2004, 22:11
Carl Gustav Jung has a pretty interesting book called, "Man and His Symbols". Not really pertinent to communism, but provides interesting insight into how man views symbols.

Guest1
16th January 2004, 02:54
The hammer and sickle is absolutely not a leninist symbol. It was used by leninists but it belongs to all communists.

The red flag was used by anarchists up until the revolution in russia turned sour. That is when the black flag brgan picking up for anarchists, the red/black diagonal following soon afterwards. The black flag had been in use for some time before though. When the red and black really went up though, was at the student's revolt in france in the 70's I believe.

SonofRage
16th January 2004, 05:43
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 04:17 PM
I like the 'Green Anarchy' symbol. Where did you find it?

http://www.anarchosyndicalism.org/ecology/