We don't want a (surveillance) state right?

[jeffreycc]

So today I had a 20 minute-ish debate with my substitute English teacher today (in front of a giggling high school class of sheep, though I dislike using that term) over government surveillance, more specifically on Snowden and his whistleblowing actions (this started because we had to discuss an article in the New York Times ran Upfront magazine for teens). She, a former member of the military, branded him a traitor and a coward and was obviously very statist/nationalistic. I called him a hero due to the fact that he revealed the illegal surveillance state that is evergrowing, around the world even, and which appears to be heading into an even worse direction. I'm assuming the members of this site will agree with me but I wanted to ask anyway, what do you guys think?

Side note: In a brief reference to Chelsea (Bradley) Manning, the substitute impersonated her, saying "Oh I'm just confused, I don't know if I'm a boy or a girl," which was then followed by sickening laughter from the whole class. I then responded "So now you're making fun of Manning because she's a transgender" and wow she got furious, I have to say it felt good (while I was distubed at the fact that I even had to defend Manning for this reason).

[RedBen]

So today I had a 20 minute-ish debate with my substitute English teacher today (in front of a giggling high school class of sheep, though I dislike using that term) over government surveillance, more specifically on Snowden and his whistleblowing actions (this started because we had to discuss an article in the New York Times ran Upfront magazine for teens). She, a former member of the military, branded him a traitor and a coward and was obviously very statist/nationalistic. I called him a hero due to the fact that he revealed the illegal surveillance state that is evergrowing, around the world even, and which appears to be heading into an even worse direction. I'm assuming the members of this site will agree with me but I wanted to ask anyway, what do you guys think?

Side note: In a brief reference to Chelsea (Bradley) Manning, the substitute impersonated her, saying "Oh I'm just confused, I don't know if I'm a boy or a girl," which was then followed by sickening laughter from the whole class. I then responded "So now you're making fun of Manning because she's a transgender" and wow she got furious, I have to say it felt good (while I was distubed at the fact that I even had to defend Manning for this reason).
sounds like a bigot. it speaks to the health of society when a "teacher" is less open minded, less capable of critical thinking than their student. good for you for standing up and speaking out. you won't find any chelsea manning haters here. you're in good company. you can always tell a bigot by the 4 things they begin to do when called out:1 they get red and flustered, stammering. 2 they deny it vehemently. 3 they go back to their original biased opinion. 4 they insult you or try to blame you for "baiting" them(ie: you made/tricked me into looking that way) in random order.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Good for you. It might seem like people are "sheep" or don't give a shit, but having the confidence to call that shit out can inspire people. Plus - you never know why some people aren't speaking. Lots of people (especially people who experience certain types of oppression, including women, queers, POC) are basically taught to keep their heads down "or else".
Anyway, I had a buddy in high school who never seemed particularly political (you know, he'd come to antiwar rallies sometimes, he'd take literature if my anarchist group was tabling, but he wasn't super "active") - I ran into him again when we were in our early twenties, and he was a super serious IWW organizer, and getting some serious shit done. He told me that he credits the aforementioned high school anarchist group with his politicization . . . so, it just goes to show, right?

I wish I had some resources on Trans* issues I could point you to, but, unfortunately, I can mostly only think of organizations around Montreal.

Re: The surveillance state, you should do a bit of reading about COINTELPRO (Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO), short documentary (http://www.freedomarchives.org/Cointelpro.html)) or various contemporary cases of government entrapment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Darby#2008_Republican_Convention_activitie s) and harassment (http://nopoliticalrepression.wordpress.com/). It'll all make for good "ammo" should the issue come up again.

[DasFapital]

I had similar experiences in high school. I wasn't really a leftist yet but I did make a speech in my US government class claiming that the Afghans posed no actual threat to the US and that the War on Terror was largely driven by government propaganda. Of course the school was crawling with flag wavers and military recruiters so I wasn't taken seriously at all.

[Red Economist]

well done! standing up to a teacher or anyone in authority is never easy. I'm sure that alot of people in your class did agree with you, but it would have taken alot of guts to get up and support you when an argument gets going. people do behave differently when they are in a group. when they're on their own some of them will probably turn round and be enthusiastic outside of class if they get the chance.


I then responded "So now you're making fun of Manning because she's a transgender" and wow she got furious, I have to say it felt good

welcome to the darkside... when you get it right, it feels better each time. :grin:

[blake 3:17]

From an excellent article published today:
The struggle to defend privacy and shrink a security state that is out of control can no longer be relegated to the margins of geekdom or casually dismissed as paranoid “security culture”. Forfeiting our right to privacy through personal and collective inaction enables totalitarianism when information technology has become an important new apparatus of oppression. And relegating it to the margins makes more vulnerable, conspicuous, and exposed those who, for whatever reason, do need to protect their privacy and data (for example, journalists working on sensitive stories or people who live in authoritarian states).

The spooks have shown they can’t ever be trusted with their expensive toys. It is imperative that we take collective action to force structural change, increase transparency, defend the rights of whistleblowers and journalists, and sharply curtail the surveillance state (here’s somewhere to get started). We also need technological solutions that work for most people, because we can’t ever again trust that the power to surveil won’t be abused, even if the law is changed.

Full highly recommended article: http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/corvin-russell/2013/09/we-cannot-be-complacent-about-stasification-our-societies

[Remus Bleys]

How do the more authoritarian marxists account for NSA?

Like, what's Mr. Suppress Everything's (Im naming archetypes, not names) view on it?

[jeffreycc]

well done! standing up to a teacher or anyone in authority is never easy. I'm sure that alot of people in your class did agree with you, but it would have taken alot of guts to get up and support you when an argument gets going. people do behave differently when they are in a group. when they're on their own some of them will probably turn round and be enthusiastic outside of class if they get the chance.



welcome to the darkside... when you get it right, it feels better each time. :grin:

There actually was a girl, who I already knew as an acquaintance, who came up to me after class and said that she agreed with me and wanted to say something as well, especially since I kept getting cut off by the substitute, but she was afraid of getting yelled at or something. So there was at least 1 person :grin:

I also found it ironic how later the substitute was talking about US public education and how it "opens up our minds to think, unlike other countries." I don't even feel a need to elaborate on this.

Anyways, a thank you to everyone else, I'll definitely check out those articles and stuff.

[Os Cangaceiros]

We, as in the people on this site? No, we don't want a surveillance state, lol

As far as the general American public goes, though, most people either don't care or are vaguely uncomfortable with the phenomenon, yet have no idea how to combat it. I highly doubt that there will be many votes cast on the basis of whether some politician supported the state surveillance bureaucracy (not that it would matter, as any incoming political idealist would probably only last until the first hysterical Congressional briefing about how the NSA needs to install streaming cameras in every American's home, lest the terrorists win).

I have very little hope for any sort of bottom-up change in this country, honestly. I'm not going to call people sheep because that kind of makes me sound kind of elitist and bitter, buuuuuuuuuuut.......

[jeffreycc]

We, as in the people on this site? No, we don't want a surveillance state, lol

As far as the general American public goes, though, most people either don't care or are vaguely uncomfortable with the phenomenon, yet have no idea how to combat it. I highly doubt that there will be many votes cast on the basis of whether some politician supported the state surveillance bureaucracy (not that it would matter, as any incoming political idealist would probably only last until the first hysterical Congressional briefing about how the NSA needs to install streaming cameras in every American's home, lest the terrorists win).

I have very little hope for any sort of bottom-up change in this country, honestly. I'm not going to call people sheep because that kind of makes me sound kind of elitist and bitter, buuuuuuuuuuut.......

I felt that way about using "sheep" as well, oh well. The general public is just so uninformed/misinformed with many simply following others without thinking it seems. One person at a time though, things are changing. It'll be interesting to see how the general people of the world will feel about this in, say, 10-20 years or so, and how (if) they react.

[Radio Spartacus]

I have to applaud the OP here. The other day we were discussing a book during college orientation, called Long Way Gone. The book is the memoir of a child soldier. Overall, I enjoyed reading it and am glad the author was brave enough to write it, but I have qualms with the naive positive portrayal of the west. Before I could even comment on such a thing, a fellow student started talking about US imperialism. She thought it was very ironic that the author praises the west when so many conflicts involving child soldiers are rooted in western capitalist exploitation. Gives me hope to see my fellow young people questioning in the classroom, in the face of a machine dedicated to standardization.

As for NSA surveillance? We long to see it wither away with the rest of the state.

[jeffreycc]

I have to applaud the OP here. The other day we were discussing a book during college orientation, called Long Way Gone. The book is the memoir of a child soldier. Overall, I enjo. d reading it and am glad the author was brave enough to write it, but I have qualms with the naive positive portrayal of the west. Before I could even comment on such a thing, a fellow student started talking about US imperialism. She thought it was very ironic that the author praises the west when so many conflicts involving child soldiers are rooted in western capitalist exploitation. Gives me hope to see my fellow young people questioning in the classroom, in the face of a machine dedicated to standardization.

As for NSA surveillance? We long to see it wither away with the rest of the state.

The uniformity is overwhelming, my whole education so far has simply enforced that. Seeing most of my friends, who i've known since preschool, succumb to it is horrible to watch. Or even experience I should say.

Have you read or watched anything of Noam Chomsky? He's an absolutely brilliant criticizer of US foreign policy, the media and such. If you haven't heard of him I highly recommend you look him up.

[Tim Redd]

I'm with you jeffreycc. I myself have tweeted that Manning was a hero for just the same reasons you mentioned. Maxrev (maximum revolution).

[jeffreycc]

I'm with you jeffreycc. I myself have tweeted that Manning was a hero for just the same reasons you mentioned. Maxrev (maximum revolution).

If only everyone else felt the same way..

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think you're my hero. I wasn't a radical or anything when I was in High School - but I felt scared as shit for even daring to call out people for rampant homophobic comments and arguments (this was the mid-90s and there was no one out in my whole high school). I also don't think I even knew what trans was at that point. So bravo!

Since when is having the conviction to do something you think is right but would probably land you years and years in prison (or worse) ever been cowardly? Isn't doing something you're told to do even if you think it's wrong sorta one of the definitions of cowardice?

Anyway, I think that goes to the "sheep" comment too. People can be scared, peer-pressure and authority can be intimidating and people don't feel confident in their own ideas let alone to challenge other people. This isn't always the case, but in the US particularly, people have low expectations and so they find it easier to kick those they think are below them than to challenge the much more powerful and influential people above.

And weren't these sociopaths like your sub all scared of death panels and a "nanny state" that would oppress us with medical care like two years ago?

[Red Commissar]

If Chelsea Manning was from a third world country or some "axis of evil" nation, I'd guarantee the media (and public's) treatment of her would be different. In place of condemnation and ridicule, there'd be praise.

Of course, someone could say we might react the same to such an instance if it was a nation we were stuck defending, but I think this misses the broader point. Is this attack on Manning solely because of the law being "violated", or some unquestioning patriotism? In the latter it seems to be the case, which I find all the more idiotic when you consider some of these people style themselves as being against "big government" from the conservatives, or holding "yeah free speech!" from the liberals.

I don't really remember much from my school years though it wasn't that long ago. I'm trying to think of cases where I did get into an argument with a teacher, since I had plenty of disagreements- in the end at that age I was simply afraid of being disciplined as it already happened to be several times. The only case I can think of was from a history teacher who was deep in the "lost cause" history of the Civil War- unfortunately then I didn't argue with her on those grounds, but simply because I found her obsession with Robert E. Lee bizarre and made fun of it.

[blake 3:17]

We need to be absolutely firm in defending civil liberties, and we needn't be ashamed as socialists or communists or anarchists or whatever in doing so.

I'd start a post which I abandoned -- thankfully -- but made me realize certain dimensions of what many of us might scoff as the 'Popular Front'. My dad was part of the liberal wing of the popular front here (yeah he'd be 97 if still alive...), fought the Nazis in the Second War, and remained very dedicated to civil liberties and democratic rights.

A defining moment in my life was hearing Desmond Tutu speak at out our church -- I was about 10 or so and didn't understand exactly what he was talking about, but got convinced it was massive wrong.

Just looked him up & no wonder I love him: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/09/18/desmond-tutu-god-makes-me-fight-for-gay-rights/

[jeffreycc]

I think you're my hero. I wasn't a radical or anything when I was in High School - but I felt scared as shit for even daring to call out people for rampant homophobic comments and arguments (this was the mid-90s and there was no one out in my whole high school). I also don't think I even knew what trans was at that point. So bravo!

Since when is having the conviction to do something you think is right but would probably land you years and years in prison (or worse) ever been cowardly? Isn't doing something you're told to do even if you think it's wrong sorta one of the definitions of cowardice?


And weren't these sociopaths like your sub all scared of death panels and a "nanny state" that would oppress us with medical care like two years ago?

Haha thanks. Better late than never. I haven't really witnessed many homo/transphobic type comments, but they are infuriating. I feel an absolute need to say something, at least I don't live in an extremely conservative area. Yet my family does make slight comments and references, or just laughs whenever homosexual marriage type issues come up, even though they would support it, making even less sense to me that they feel comfortable making any kind of negative comments about them. And I totally agree with you, it makes no sense to call him a traitor or coward, he's an absolute hero. I was actually surprised, she was praising Obamacare and other liberal type ideas while I originally thought she was a hardcore conservative. She also hated the electoral college.



Of course, someone could say we might react the same to such an instance if it was a nation we were stuck defending, but I think this misses the broader point. Is this attack on Manning solely because of the law being "violated", or some unquestioning patriotism?

I don't really remember much from my school years though it wasn't that long ago. I'm trying to think of cases where I did get into an argument with a teacher, since I had plenty of disagreements- in the end at that age I was simply afraid of being disciplined as it already happened to be several times. The only case I can think of was from a history teacher who was deep in the "lost cause" history of the Civil War- unfortunately then I didn't argue with her on those grounds, but simply because I found her obsession with Robert E. Lee bizarre and made fun of it.

The substitute was insistent on the fact that they" "wrongly broke the law and she found the government's actions justifiable. Whatever reason for this tremendous attack on Manning, it makes zero sense to me, well from a non-statist point. I find obsessions with any current/former military members disturbing, that's just praising someone for essentially being used as a tool to kill people. In the JROTC program at my school, essentially every member of it desires to join the military. I constantly hear about how excited they are and how proud their family would be. I have never understood them since the day I first walked into the school.


We need to be absolutely firm in defending civil liberties, and we needn't be ashamed as socialists or communists or anarchists or whatever in doing so.

A defining moment in my life was hearing Desmond Tutu speak at out our church -- I was about 10 or so and didn't understand exactly what he was talking about, but got convinced it was massive wrong.
[/url]

With the loss of civil liberties, only totalitarianism will rise. It is our duty to defend them for the sake of ourselves and everyone around us. And you were at a Desmond Tutu speech? Even if you couldn't really understand, that's great. I was recently in South Africa and visited many sites pertaining to him and Nelson Mandela and such. Tutu's message is inspiring.

[blake 3:17]

I heard Tutu speak, while apartheid was full on. It was one of those things where you're not totally getting it, but you're getting it.

It was on it's way out but... Also been one of the most critical voices of the insiders of the anti apartheid movement about injustice in South Africa. He's been great on Palestine and great on queer stuff now.

I'd like to learn more about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission -- a lot on the Left were very negative about it -- but I tend to think having the truth out is better than some stupid revenge feud. I don't know enough to comment more than that.

[argeiphontes]

wrongly broke the law and she found the government's actions justifiable.

Just wanted to point out that it wasn't justified, even under the law, because Chelsea Manning was revealing war crimes, which are illegal under international conventions, and in the US, treaties override law. Somebody seeing war crimes is obligated to try to stop them, or reveal them. This goes back to the Nuremberg Tribunals, where the famous "just following orders" defense wasn't accepted.

Obviously I don't need to point out on this site that law is (partially) an expression of ruling class power and has nothing to do with 'ethics', which is the only thing that can really justify actions. Otherwise you're stuck in a circular argument, you need to follow the law because you need to follow the law.

[Klaatu]

The one that is really doing the spying is The Capitalist. (government is merely a tool.)

[Sheepy]

The one that is really doing the spying is The Capitalist. (government is merely a tool.)

Oh boy, rhetoric! My favorite.

"The Capitalist" in question IS the government and all the bourgeoisie that make up the entire thing. We know who the enemy is, we know how they're protecting capital, we don't need you making all these empty slogans of mystery.

This isn't 1910, we're not making posters here, we're having an actual discussion.

[Klaatu]

Oh boy, rhetoric! My favorite.

"The Capitalist" in question IS the government and all the bourgeoisie that make up the entire thing. We know who the enemy is, we know how they're protecting capital


No shit... Of course it is the entire thing! Did I say it wasn't?

[Nakidana]

Good on you for confronting your bigoted teacher bro! But yeah, don't describe your classmates as "sheep". First of all it's elitist and second it instantly brings up images of Alex Jones/infowars/NWO in my mind, an occurrence I really do try to avoid as much as possible (Alex Jones also ruined the word "shill" for me, btw).