Why do so few people stay here?

[Skyhilist]

I'm not talking about banned people, I mean people who joined awhile ago, and never got banned but just left.

When I look at old posts on this site (more than 4-5 years old), the vast majority of posters in the threads don't seem to post on this site anymore.

I'm aware that there are plenty of notable exceptions, but why is it that most people in the past have left this site after a few years and stopped posting? Even people who had really high post counts years back it seems tended to quit posting after awhile.

[Tim Cornelis]

It gets boring or a nuisance, or maybe they stop studying or lose their jobs and have no reason to procrastinate -- I notice my post count go up when I have things to do.

[Comrade Samuel]

To be honest I'm getting tired of seeing all of these threads entitled "Why is everybody banned?" or "Why does everybody quit" or my personal favorite "Why is Stormfront so much larger than us?"

I think its time we learn how to attract people to revolutionary leftism without coming off as condescending elitists or total losers....either that or we can just accept that we've lost, I'd prefer the former.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Sometimes you get bored of the same old discussions taking place. I used to post far more often until I became more active in real life actions and discussions regarding revolutionary politics. Plus, sometimes I just have shit I gotta do. :P

I figure it is the same for others as well. Revleft is nice and all, but sometimes it gets a bit repetitive.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

They aren't really that invested in Socialism.

They aren't as numerous as you may think, plenty of us hang around for a few years.

They've become a member of the bourgeoisie?!

Who knows.

[Le Libérer]

After 10 years of posting, posting on the same subjects can get mundane. You could spend hours and hours debating a subject and a few months later, there it is again, asking the same question. Personally, that happened to me, and after time I think, "Ah I will let someone take it this time."

Also people change. We have had root admins become completely disheartened with leftism and moved away from it. Stay around long enough and you will see just about anything happen.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Yeah, I disappeared for a few years.
I was a chronically houseless (I don't want to say "homeless" - it's sort of like the broke/poor distinction in my mind) alcoholic druggie anarchist petty scofflaw.
In some ways, I think I was doing some important revolutionary work, and in others, well, I just wasn't together enough to do RevLeft and RealLife.

I think Facebook was a distraction too. I post here way more now that I've gotten rid of all of my other social media. Since ten years ago, a lot of people have probably left RevLeft to focus on their Tumblrs or whatever.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Also people change. We have had root admins become completely disheartened with leftism and moved away from it. Stay around long enough and you will see just about anything happen.

That's depressing. I don't know how people give up on leftism. It makes no sense :(

[Sentinel]

It makes no sense

Well, occurring events play in. Around 1990 a shitload of people did drop out of radical politics. My father, for example became disillusioned and a fulltime alcoholic instead.

But the 'terrible 90s' aside, I'd say most people who drop out are either burned out by bad organisations or aren't really active in the first place - like I'd suspect for example LSD who CoR was referring to.

[Popular Front of Judea]

Absent a larger leftist or at least left leaning culture I am surprised by those who carry on.


That's depressing. I don't know how people give up on leftism. It makes no sense :(

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

After 10 years of posting, posting on the same subjects can get mundane.

This is where I think having the experience of being a mod/admin, at some point, even for a brief time, really helps members. I found that, since being a mod, and even now not being one, I feel as though it's my duty as a more long-term member not to get frustrated with new posters being all like 'So why was Stalin so bad' and the like, but to try and point them in the right direction.

I find that the better posters who also think along such mature lines tend to stick around, even if there are peaks and troughs in activity, as there naturally will be due to IRL stuff.

[A.J.]

It gets boring or a nuisance, or maybe they stop studying or lose their jobs and have no reason to procrastinate -- I notice my post count go up when I have things to do.

Well, I'm sort of the opposite, as I only tend to post on internet forums when I'm at a loose end(like at the current time).

It's only when I have a lot of free time on my hands that I tend to think about politics and other shit.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Well, occurring events play in. Around 1990 a shitload of people did drop out of radical politics. My father, for example became disillusioned and a fulltime alcoholic instead.

But the 'terrible 90s' aside, I'd say most people who drop out are either burned out by bad organisations or aren't really active in the first place - like I'd suspect for example LSD who CoR was referring to.

Yeah, best/worst story.
I knew LSD IRL.
Anyway, basically, the whole thing, as I understand it, went something like this:

CyM: "Dood! That's some liberal bullshit."
LSD: "It is? Hrm. Maybe I'm a liberal?"
CyM: "That's not what I was getting at."
LSD: "No. You're right. I'm a liberal."
CyM: "I'm never coming over to your house to watch Babylon 5 ever again."

[Popular Front of Judea]

Revleft isn't very accepting of skepticism. Part of the Revleft experience is being told that you are merely a social democrat and should be kept penned up in Opposing Ideologies. Guaranteed to keep people coming back I tell ya.


Yeah, best/worst story.
I knew LSD IRL.
Anyway, basically, the whole thing, as I understand it, went something like this:

CyM: "Dood! That's some liberal bullshit?"
LSD: "It is? Hrm. Maybe I'm a liberal?"
CyM: "That's not what I was getting at."
LSD: "No. You're right. I'm a liberal."
CyM: "I'm never coming over to your house to watch Babylon 5 ever again."

[Le Libérer]

Yeah, best/worst story.
I knew LSD IRL.
Anyway, basically, the whole thing, as I understand it, went something like this:

CyM: "Dood! That's some liberal bullshit."
LSD: "It is? Hrm. Maybe I'm a liberal?"
CyM: "That's not what I was getting at."
LSD: "No. You're right. I'm a liberal."
CyM: "I'm never coming over to your house to watch Babylon 5 ever again."
Yes I remember rs2k making me get out the laptop and scribing a "Dear LSD" letter to him. He was heartbroken and very short with my spelling as he dictated the letter. :lol: (I should search it out, I was pretty good).
And the story I remember is, he went to a meeting with CyM and when they left, he had this major epiphany.

It's how he left the board that baffled me. It took us a while to find his backdoor to the admin cp. He was a smart cookie. It's a shame really.

[BIXX]

Yes I remember rs2k making me get out the laptop and scribing a "Dear LSD" letter to him. He was heartbroken and very short with my spelling as he dictated the letter. :lol: (I should search it out, I was pretty good).
And the story I remember is, he went to a meeting with CyM and when they left, he had this major epiphany.

It's how he left the board that baffled me. It took us a while to find his backdoor to the admin cp. He was a smart cookie. It's a shame really.

I understand if you can't, but can you give me a little background here?

[Ele'ill]

but why is it that most people in the past have left this site after a few years and stopped posting?

because life is harder than the addiction to the forum

[Os Cangaceiros]

And the story I remember is, he went to a meeting with CyM and when they left, he had this major epiphany.


Yeah he went to a IMT Trot meeting. Should've known better. That's like throwing a bucket of ice water on even the most committed rebel's revolutionary fire.

[Le Libérer]

Yeah he went to a IMT Trot meeting. Should've known better. That's like throwing a bucket of ice water on even the most committed rebel's revolutionary fire.
RS2K alluded to that same thing. :grin:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1098791&postcount=149


LSd is unnecessarily discouraged by the futility lingering of Trotskyism. In all groups of trotskyists, theres an air of futility about them. They all know in the backs of their minds they missed their chance in the USSR in the late 1920s.

Just because trots seems like a waste of time, it does not mean a social democracy is the only alternative. All it takes is another war, to radicalize a portion of the poulation and if Marx is right there will be another war, there always is. Its easier to see a world divided by rival imperialism. An on going struggle between China, Japan, and the US for
global ecomonics evenually will lead to war. Such wars generally mash optimistic illusions people have about their own political structure.

LSD is old enough to realize the perils of jumping to conclusion of pieces of history that are too small to make a sound judgement from.

I just had a memory of us laughing so hard at his cracking on Trots. He was the king of one liners :)

[Le Libérer]

I understand if you can't, but can you give me a little background here?
This thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/open-letter-revolutionaryleft-t71910/index.html)will more than answer any questions you have on this.

[Fred]

RS2K alluded to that same thing. :grin:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1098791&postcount=149



I just had a memory of us laughing so hard at his cracking on Trots. He was the king of one liners :)

He appears to be a burned out ex-leftist -- I mean I can see how the IMT meeting might have bothered him. But I suspect he was just cynical and toasted. Seems like a smart guy who never really understood historical materialism.

Obviously, many people "leave" because the Mods and Admins throw them out. It is the absolute worst thing about this forum, IMO. Kind of disgraceful, really. This is a large forum that should revel in its wide-ranging political (revolutionary) viewpoints.

Some people leave because they get tired of the same discussions. Some people leave because they despair that many of the best posters on the site, those that provide many thoughtful posts, are purged because the leadership of this board doesn't like their politics or their attitude.

But life circumstances change and having the time or inclination to post here isn't a given. It is true that the revolutionary movement is a great consumer of human material (I think Trotsky said something to this effect). I was very active in revolutionary politics for about 15 years. I still am an unreconstructed Marxist/Leninist/Trotskyist, but I have been much more involved in non-political endeavors since that time (music, graduate school, starting a family). I consider posting here to be a VERY minimal political activism. It is very difficult for most people, during long periods of reaction, to maintain a revolutionary perspective. Sometimes their politics shift to the right. Often they just drift away from politics and political activism.

I hope to contribute to the conversation and maybe teach young comrades a thing or two now and again. Of course, I also learn a thing or two. So I would guess there are myriad reasons that people drift off.

[the debater]

Could it be that many internet users are young people, and when those young people get older, they become busier with work and family life? I would imagine that on a large forum, you'll have more people "coming and going" versus a regular-sized forum.

[Le Libérer]

Could it be that many internet users are young people, and when those young people get older, they become busier with work and family life?

That is a very good observation! Just think, our demographic is males between the ages of 12-27, so its very reasonable that they mature and move towards dealing with what life has for them as an adult. A lot happens once high school is over. Its why the BA has created a really good set of dos and don'ts, where outcomes for members are determined by the mods and admins, which is about 30 people. We have finally created a culture here that promotes fairness, and the lack of knowledge is forgiven. I speak personally when I say mutual respect for others is valued as much as being a knowledgeable poster. If someone cannot be nice, they can't stay. Its a rule that has paid off as old members who have returned will tell you; the climate here has changed for the better. Change is always going to occur and we work hard to make sure it changes for the better. We do the best we can do.

[CyM]

Yeah, I don't think the specific meeting was the cause of LSD leaving, and I still do hang out with him when he comes back to town once in a while. LSD was a zero activity leftist. He comes from a fairly well off family, and his leftism was limited to his presence on the board. I tried to get him involved in real life activity and I think he realized he has no intention of dedicating himself to overthrowing capitalism. It would have happened sooner or later with him. It could have been an anarchist meeting, it doesn't matter. Anything that takes more effort than the internet would have led him to the same conclusion.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Yeah, to be fair to CyM and the Montreal IMT, while I have some significant differences in perspective, they've always been a lively group, and pleasant company. Though, back in the day, I feel like we were all hammered.
Interestingly, a Montreal IMT (then the CMT) member from that period went on to be an editor of Upping The Anti (http://uppingtheanti.org) (a primarily anarchist/anti-authoritarian journal based in Toronto, with significant presence/cache in the Canadian left milieu). So, really, LSD has no excuse. :p

[Le Libérer]

A couple of years ago before psycho started purging the dead member group, we had over 50,000 registered members. Of course and I think speaks to the OPs question as well, a lot of those were advertising spammers. At one point before adding a fix, we were getting 20 or 30 a day. That was adding up to a few 1000 accounts that never posted a relevant post. I remember the first time he purged them I said,"Well hell. There goes our bragging rights!" It left us with about 15,000 registered members and about 2500 of those were active.

[Klaatu]

I have told some of my leftist friends about this site. Let us recruit! :cool:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Obviously, many people "leave" because the Mods and Admins throw them out. It is the absolute worst thing about this forum, IMO. Kind of disgraceful, really.

Honestly, things are not always as they seem. AFAIK, pretty much everyone, or every group, of posters that have been banned have always been voted on by the BA and deserved it. I can rarely think of a case where a ban vote has been split, it's always been conclusive because that user's behaviour has been continually in contravention of the forum rules.


I hope to contribute to the conversation and maybe teach young comrades a thing or two now and again. Of course, I also learn a thing or two. So I would guess there are myriad reasons that people drift off.

This is how I feel, although hopefully I still count as a young comrade :grin:

[Skyhilist]

So basically people leave for many different reasons and LSD's departure was particularly notable.
Sounds reasonable enough.

[Fred]

Honestly, things are not always as they seem. AFAIK, pretty much everyone, or every group, of posters that have been banned have always been voted on by the BA and deserved it. I can rarely think of a case where a ban vote has been split, it's always been conclusive because that user's behaviour has been continually in contravention of the forum rules.



This is how I feel, although hopefully I still count as a young comrade :grin:

I suppose it depends upon how one operationalizes "deserved." It seems to me that the board is looking for opportunities to ban certain comrades. My point is that RL is strengthened by diverse opinions. These bans are a bad business.

As for you, young man, if you are under 30, I would count you as young.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

To be honest, most forums tend to have memberships kind of like this. I imagine that forums like revleft probably suffer from it more than say, a board about discussing video games or television shows because talking coherently about politics and economics and stuff requires more effort and more care than talking about entertainment and so on (not that I haven't seen nasty forum wars over pretty trivial stuff in the past)

I used to be on the moderation team of a small-ish forum about three or four years ago and the situation was similar, albeit slower and on a smaller scale. We had a really core membership of fewer than a hundred users who would usually post every day and had been around more or less since the start, and maybe another 150-250 regular users who posted less frequently but had also hung around for a few years too. Beyond that, most new users hung around for a couple of months before moving on.

Unfortunately it was badly administrated and an increasingly baroque system of subforums kind of put new users off and we began losing members and I got unceremoneously kicked off the mod team for forgetting to tell the admin that I was on holiday for two weeks :rolleyes: It still exists, I think, but it's maybe 30 people talking to themselves now.

[Red Commissar]

These things are common to all forums. Revleft might be a bit unique in that we essentially screen which users can remain here in the long-term, but otherwise most of our membership trends is not much different form other forums.

Typically you have periods of high activity and low, the former generally coming together when you happen to have a group of members who gel and provide a base even as other users come and go or don't participate as much, and the latter when you have older members leaving when they don't feel they fit in any more (or rather, loss of users they associated with better) and the new base in the process of forming. Forums at some point will have to deal with turnover, that is what to do when we have older users become inactive for what ever reason (loss of interest, real life, conflict with other users, e-drama), and not retaining as many new users as we might like.

A lot of this is random what can make some forums operate more smoothly. Having a good admin/mod team helps, but that only goes so far- ultimately a lot of it comes down to the users posting and how it seems to a guest lurking here.

Forums have also had to deal with the fact that this particular mode of interaction isn't as popular as some of the new social media sites that are more popular among younger generations.

[Ele'ill]

Yeah, I don't think the specific meeting was the cause of LSD leaving, and I still do hang out with him when he comes back to town once in a while. LSD was a zero activity leftist. He comes from a fairly well off family, and his leftism was limited to his presence on the board. I tried to get him involved in real life activity and I think he realized he has no intention of dedicating himself to overthrowing capitalism. It would have happened sooner or later with him. It could have been an anarchist meeting, it doesn't matter. Anything that takes more effort than the internet would have led him to the same conclusion.

A lot of 'meetings' of various types and immersion in radically/activisty shit is off-putting regardless of your 'activity level'. A lot of people who are active in a lot of different ways leave it all behind. Sometimes it is for a short while, a year, a decade, forever, perhaps not in the same way or for the same reasons that LSD did but they ditch it. This doesn't mean that they don't hold radical views. I think it can mean that they have developed and that they haven't 'given in'. I think it often has to do with their own struggles in life being co-opted by others who either do an inadequate job addressing issues close to them with no opportunity to voice criticism or dissent against it just a landslide of accepted dialogue from a community of already networked cliques or on a personal level, the ability to engage with others and against an enemy becomes more and more difficult and that place where those folks exist is no longer recognized.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

^^I've found this, at times. Recently, I found that something I was working on campaign wise ended up with me having to deal with more shit from my own side ('my own side') than from the enemy. It was quite de-moralising.

[synthesis]

Honestly, things are not always as they seem. AFAIK, pretty much everyone, or every group, of posters that have been banned have always been voted on by the BA and deserved it. I can rarely think of a case where a ban vote has been split, it's always been conclusive because that user's behaviour has been continually in contravention of the forum rules.

OK, keep in mind this post is just my personal perspective on these things and in no way do I assert that this is universally true for everybody:

I would say that your post is generally correct except in the case of the purges that happen about every other year. In those situations, people often get banned for things like expressing their skepticism about why someone else has been banned, or just generally things that they would have never gotten banned for if the board wasn't in "purge mode."

In these situations, there is a sort of mentality that the board is "under siege," something that definitely did not exist when I was a mod back in 2005. If a consensus does not exist, then sometimes one is engineered by pushing out members of the BA who argue against the consensus, either by removing their admin privileges and/or banning them, or creating an atmosphere that pressures them to resign, because they are assumed to be "collaborating with the enemy" (this isn't an exaggeration of the rhetoric used) due to their disagreement. Again, this is usually just in the case of the "purge scenarios."

All this makes it sound like I am somehow personally invested in this or that I think it's a problem right now or even that I was completely opposed to everything that has happened in those instances. I'm not, and I don't, and I wasn't always, and I genuinely really like the composition of the BA as it is now, probably more so than I ever have. All I want to do is provide the other point of view that hasn't been accounted for in your description of the board process. The problem in these instances is not that a lot of people are being banned; it's all about the general environment that takes over the forum when actions that are unpopular among non-BA members are taken.

[synthesis]

Revleft isn't very accepting of skepticism. Part of the Revleft experience is being told that you are merely a social democrat and should be kept penned up in Opposing Ideologies. Guaranteed to keep people coming back I tell ya.

This usually doesn't happen unless someone consistently, vocally and intransigently dismisses revolutionary positions in most or all of the threads where it's relevant.

[Popular Front of Judea]

This usually doesn't happen unless someone consistently, vocally and intransigently dismisses revolutionary positions in most or all of the threads where it's relevant.

And who defines what is genuinely 'revolutionary' as versus ultra-leftist posturing?

[Thirsty Crow]

And who defines what is genuinely 'revolutionary' as versus ultra-leftist posturing?
Well yeah, I don't know, pluralism of positions and perspectives, and after all the welfare state and nationalized "heights of the economy" can be interpreted as socialism.

And death can be interpreted as new, eternal life.

[synthesis]

And who defines what is genuinely 'revolutionary' as versus ultra-leftist posturing?

Holding a single political position that distinguishes you from left-liberal reformists would be a good criterion.

[Popular Front of Judea]

Holding a single political position that distinguishes you from left-liberal reformists would be a good criterion.

When the helicopters are landing on the roofs I will gladly give you a list of demands.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I was always under the impression that RL was like The Village and we were to remain here lest we be eaten by Shyamalanian wood demons?

[Comrade Jacob]

Some people leave but a lot get purged.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I don't know why people are citing LSD's lack of political activity as a causative factor in his disillusionment, since I've basically done fuck-all in that respect and yet I certainly don't feel like abandoning radical leftism any time soon.

Indeed, I feel that world events over the past five years have served to vindicate my politics. When I first joined this website over ten years ago, the shine hadn't yet worn off the 90s and there were still echoes of that post-Soviet triumphalism that proclaimed the "end of history". Yet fast-forward to the late noughties/early new-tens and capitalism is once again shuddering under the weight of its own contradictions, in a style and magnitude that rivals the Great Depression.

My memory is a bit hazy on this point, but it seems that while I first came across this site fortuitously, it was the issue of opposition to the occupation of Iraq that made me stay. I wonder if it was the vents of 9/11 and the subsequent histrionic reaction in the US which planted the seeds of radicalism within my young mind.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I would've written this post yesterday, if I hadn't had a cold...

RevLeft is primarily useful as a learning resource for people who are new to revolutionary politics, I think. There are very few theory-intense discussions, and those few tend to be undermined by some of the structural flaws of this site. So at some point, most people will have developed to the point where RevLeft isn't that useful to them.

Also, the notion of a "revolutionary left" is really, well, I don't think it actually corresponds to anything existing. The various tendencies that are represented on this site often have little more than history in common, if that. Sometimes, that can get grating if not outright worrying.

Then there are problems in the manner in which the site is run. I mean, the rules, to the extent that they are enforced at all, are enforced inconsistently. And the enforcement varies by tendency of the "offender". Currently, there are several primitivists and third-worldists on the site, yet sympathisers of the ICL are banned on the slightest pretext. A member was restricted, a while ago, for defending the calling of police on an anarchist organisation, but a fairly prominent member can advocate the killing of Leninists with no consequence.

And there is no accountability. Even questioning the infinite wisdom of the administration can result in administrative action. All of this creates an atmosphere where you never know if disagreeing with an admin will place your head on the block. And posters who are particularly good at debates and revolutionary theory tend to tick off the admins more than other posters, resulting in many high-quality posters being banned, lowering the general level of the site and exacerbating the problems I listed previously.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Some people leave but a lot get purged.

You've been here since July 2013. How on earth would you know whether that is true or not?

Something you're not telling us? ;)

[Sinister Intents]

I feel like a pointless user, so I'll probably leave soon. Fuck, I feel like a pointless piece of human flesh, so I don't know what I'll do.....

[Remus Bleys]

I feel like a pointless user, so I'll probably leave soon. Fuck, I feel like a pointless piece of human flesh, so I don't know what I'll do.....

Go on pour your heart out maybe? People there are awesome.

My theory is that revleft is full of teens who grow up and either
A) join a party
B) vote democrat
T he users in there 20s and thrties... I highly doubt they organize.

[Sinister Intents]

Go on pour your heart out maybe? People there are awesome.

My theory is that revleft is full of teens who grow up and either
A) join a party
B) vote democrat
T he users in there 20s and thrties... I highly doubt they organize.

I'll go on PYHO later tonight, so around 10:30, it's 4:50 here.
I'm in my early 20's I'll be 21 on the 11th id like to organize or maybe join a party.