Greeks protest against Golden Dawn attack on Communists

[boiler]

Greeks protest against Golden Dawn attack on Communists
Thousands demonstrate in Athens after supporters of neo-Nazi party leave nine seriously injured amid fears of civil war
Thousands of Greeks took to the streets of Athens on Friday to protestagainst a violent attack on Communist party members by black-shirted supporters of the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party which left nine people in hospital with serious injuries.
In what was described as a murderous attack – and the most serious violence since the extremist group was elected to the country's parliament last year – about 50 men wielding crowbars and bats set upon leftists as they distributed posters in a working-class district of the capital late on Thursday.
In a statement KKE, the Communist party of Greece, said: "The way in which they acted and the weapons employed … are evidence of the murderous nature of the attack. Among the Golden Dawners, some of whom had covered their faces or wore helmets or [party] shirts, were their leaders, well-known fascists and thugs."
With the Communist party preparing to stage a youth festival in the coming days, Thursday's midnight assault comes amid mounting fears that the far right is trying to cultivate an atmosphere of civil war in Greece. Prominent members of the virulently anti-immigrant Golden Dawn have openly predicted that the debt-stricken country is heading towards civil war.
Dimitris Psarras, a writer who has chronicled Golden Dawn's rise over almost four decades since the collapse of military rule, said: "Their agenda, clearly, is to create a climate of civil war, a divide where people have to choose between leftists and rightists."
Psarras argues the attack in the dock-side district of Perama – a Communist stronghold where Golden Dawn has made considerable inroads in recent years on the back of anger over austerity measures – was indicative of that strategy.
"It was very well organised and the most serious incident yet," he told the Guardian. "They are no longer only targeting immigrants in the middle of the night. They are deliberately increasing tensions, expanding their agenda of hate, by going for leftists."
Earlier this year, the Muslim Association of Greece received a letter bearing the insignia of the group and an implicit threat that its members would be "slaughtered like chickens" unless they left the country. Marking the anniversary of the September 11 attacks this week, the party posted a vehemently antisemitic diatribe on its website denouncing "world Zionism [as] the architect of global terrorism".
Greece, whose political faultlines were entrenched by a bloody civil war in the wake of brutal Nazi occupation, is mired in a sixth year of recession that has seen poverty and unemployment soar as it navigates its worst crisis in modern times.
Recent opinion polls have shown that no other party has managed to capitalise on the growing levels of desperation and despair as effectively as Golden Dawn.
Surveys released by the pollsters Public Issue and Pulse in recent days confirmed that the extremists – who recently blasted people attending a "Greeks only" food handout with the official anthem of Nazi Germany – were the nation's fastest growing group and, at 13% and 15% respectively, its third biggest political force.
The main opposition party, the radical left Syriza, topped the ratings with 29% of support, marginally ahead of prime minister Antonis Samaras's centre-right New Democracy party. Many worry that Golden Dawn, which won 18 seats with almost 7% of the vote last June, will further boost its share of votes when local elections are held next year.
According to analysts, Thursday's attack demonstrates Golden Dawn's growing self-confidence and ability to spread its appeal. They point to the inroads the party is making into middle-class neighbourhoods of Athens.
With prominent clerics also voicing support for the group, commentators have begun to ask whether the ruling conservatives should join forces with Golden Dawn, whose views on issues of public order are strikingly similar.
"It is a particularly worrying turn of events that we should now have a debate suggesting that Golden Dawn be brought in from the cold," Psarras said. "Talk that it should end its isolation and link up with New Democracy is dangerous at a time when Greece is going from bad to worse."
Mainstream political parties – like foreign embassies – currently have no official contacts with Golden Dawn.
Leftists rallying near the spot where the attack took place called on authorities on Friday to "finally take action" and "erase" the fascist group.


http://www.theguardi...tack-communists

[ВАЛТЕР]

"Their agenda, clearly, is to create a climate of civil war, a divide where people have to choose between leftists and rightists."

Something that doesn't seem that unlikely given the situation at hand and how quickly it is deteriorating.

[Eleutheromaniac]

Leftists rallying near the spot where the attack took place called on authorities on Friday to "finally take action" and "erase" the fascist group.

Is this the KKE, Syriza, or something else? I don't feel like reciprocating Golden Dawn's call for civil war is necessarily hasty at this point. Maybe I'm jumping the gun, but who knows? Those fascist bastards are a cancer on society. :cursing:

[Thirsty Crow]

Leftists rallying near the spot where the attack took place called on authorities on Friday to "finally take action" and "erase" the fascist group.

The article first raises the issue of the structural role of GD in Greece and its vicissitude to the currently dominant political parties. I suppose that many leftists think in very similar terms, highlighting at least in a lopsided way that such political organizations are a part of the brutal "self-hygiene" of capital in crisis.

Yet they think that workers and communists should rely on the bourgeois state (how many pigs support GD tell me again?). This is a component part of the tragedy unfolding in Greece. Despite the shared class history and current status of quasi-/fascism* in Greece, they seek the improbable, almost impossible, without serious recognition of the need for class autonomy and class struggle on our own terrain. And this includes physical demolition of such groups.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I think raising the slogan of the dissolution of the Golden Dawn is not necessarily reformist, if it is made clear that there is no way that the bourgeois state will do so on its own accord, and that the police are not much better than GD in any case. But it needs to be accompanied by attempts to form a united workers' front against fascism, something no party in Greece (that has a mass following, at least) seems to be prepared to do.

[Thirsty Crow]

I think raising the slogan of the dissolution of the Golden Dawn is not necessarily reformist, if it is made clear that there is no way that the bourgeois state will do so on its own accord, and that the police are not much better than GD in any case. But it needs to be accompanied by attempts to form a united workers' front against fascism, something no party in Greece (that has a mass following, at least) seems to be prepared to do.
What is it then, in the (relative) absence of autonomous organization of self-defense for the class?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Don't get me wrong, in the Greek context it is almost certainly reformist. I was making a broader point. In any case I don't think it's a good demand, reformist or not, since the state will most likely crush left groups as much as it will crush rightist groups. Hence the demand for a mobilisation of the workers is indispensable.

[Art Vandelay]

Don't get me wrong, in the Greek context it is almost certainly reformist. I was making a broader point. In any case I don't think it's a good demand, reformist or not, since the state will most likely crush left groups as much as it will crush rightist groups. Hence the demand for a mobilisation of the workers is indispensable.

The states mobilization will be swifter and more violent against the left then the right, you can be sure of that. Don't forget that half of Greek pigs support GD.

[Thirsty Crow]

The states mobilization will be swifter and more violent against the left then the right, you can be sure of that. Don't forget that half of Greek pigs support GD.
I very much doubt that there will be little to none at all mobilization against GD. Token arrests and trials, I'd say.



Don't get me wrong, in the Greek context it is almost certainly reformist. I was making a broader point. In any case I don't think it's a good demand, reformist or not, since the state will most likely crush left groups as much as it will crush rightist groups. Hence the demand for a mobilisation of the workers is indispensable. Yeah, no worries, I didn't misconstrue what you said.

[A.J.]

Obviously, in order to defend themselves against these kind of physical attacks in the future the KKE should build a class-orientated street fighting organisation. Just like the KPD did with the Red Front Fighters League(RFB) during the time of the Weimar Republic. The situation demands it!

I mean the KKE seem to be quite adept at creating front organisations(e.g. PAME), so why not this as well?

[robbo203]

Dimitris Psarras, a writer who has chronicled Golden Dawn's rise over almost four decades since the collapse of military rule, said: "Their agenda, clearly, is to create a climate of civil war, a divide where people have to choose between leftists and rightists."


All the more reason, then, not to fall into the trap they have set. Calling on the state to physically liquidate them is a recipe for increasing state authoritarianism that can and will rebound against you. Self defence is one thing but going after them yourself is playing directly into their hands plus giving them the oxegyn of publicity they dont deserve. Sometimes you cant really fight fire with fire and only a good dousing with water will do

[A.J.]

All the more reason, then, not to fall into the trap they have set. Calling on the state to physically liquidate them is a recipe for increasing state authoritarianism that can and will rebound against you. Self defence is one thing but going after them yourself is playing directly into their hands plus giving them the oxegyn of publicity they dont deserve. Sometimes you cant really fight fire with fire and only a good dousing with water will do

No offence or anything but you sound like a pacifist hippy.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Is this the KKE, Syriza, or something else? I don't feel like reciprocating Golden Dawn's call for civil war is necessarily hasty at this point. Maybe I'm jumping the gun, but who knows? Those fascist bastards are a cancer on society. :cursing:

Are you kidding? I hope you are, because if this Greek left were to follow your call for civil war it would mean Anarchy and misery for Greece. What's needed before the Fascists can be sent to their rightful end is the building of a definitive and authoritative worker leadership in Greece, an undisputed central leadership of the left. But that is not a reality yet until KKE fight successfully against the reformists within SYRIZA and build a genuine communist program.

[robbo203]

No offence or anything but you sound like a pacifist hippy.
No offence but you dont seem to be very attentive. I did not say dont defend yourself . I just said it would be unwise to play into their hands by physically and proactively taking them on. Thats exactly what they want, isnt it?

[Ele'ill]

why does physically and proactively taking them on have to be the visible work of an organization

[Red_Banner]

The left should arm and call their organistation "Red Dawn". :)

[Paul Pott]

This is the time to organize groups of cadres to fight. But, recognizing that Golden Dawn's long term aim is state power, the left should reject their provocations to civil war. Left wing forces should only defend themselves. Let the working class of Greece see the Golden Dawn for the Nazi brownshirts they are, eventually they'll attack something that backfires.

The wrong responses are 1. expecting the state to take action against them - they are the state, when the cops' shifts are over - and 2. going out and attacking or killing GD supporters in retaliation.

Above all the key to beating Golden Dawn is to be more active than Golden Dawn. I don't think the KKE or anyone else has been doing that. Their main base of support is with the police and sections of the 'middle' class. Parties with deep roots in the working class movement shouldn't have a problem with the correct approaches.

[aty]

I have always wondered, dont people in Greece know where the Golden Dawn fuckers live? Just go to their homes where they are vulnerable and isolated and smash them, with all the militants in Greece I cant see why this would be so hard.

There are no rules in the class struggle but victory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uRzQitmZVs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uRzQitmZVs)

[robbo203]

I have always wondered, dont people in Greece know where the Golden Dawn fuckers live? Just go to their homes where they are vulnerable and isolated and smash them, with all the militants in Greece I cant see why this would be so hard.

There are no rules in the class struggle but victory.

And you dont think that if you can do that to them they cant do that to you? This is precisely playing into their hands - giving them what they want. Can you not see that? Self defence is perfectly legimate but dont give them the excuse to embark on the civil war they crave

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yeah, I don't think that the militant far-left is necessarily stronger than the militant far-right.

[Delenda Carthago]

Α. KKE knows very well how to protect itself against the System and its fascist goons. We dont need advices on what to do. Even on that incident, it took 50 nazi scums to ambush, with the help of the cops who stood there doing nothing to jump 15 people.

B. Fascism is a child of capitalism. The fight against fascism, is the fight against capitalism. One of the people that got seriously injured(and was personally targeted) was Sotiris Poulikogiannis, the president of the Perama dockyard union. He carries 200 lawsuits against him by the capitalists that work on Perama dockyard. That tells a lot about who he is.
You can see the actions of him and the union on the video. He is the one speaking to the workers at some point.

tqMaCpERlPM


GD has very close connections with the shipping part of Capital in Greece. Their demands is less taxing on it etc. Now, they try to create a syndicalist party in Perama dockyards against "the PAME commies whose incredible demands lead the capitalists to leave for cheaper countries, therefore we are left without jobs". So, their target is specific.


C. KKE responded immidiately calling for a massive demo the next day. Here you can see the demo outside the offices of GD at Perama.
z8irQ4TZkvk


D. Communists are not thugs. Their role is not to get into a gang war with fascists like those idiots you posted above. Their role, and thats what hurts the nazis the most, is to be the forefront on every worker struggle there is out there. To organise the working class in order to give the fight to take the power. Not to open the nazis skulls. Of course, you might need to do that, and for those of you that follow the "Anti Fascism" section of the forum, you have seen many incidents of that happening between KKE and GD. But that is not the main action.


Stop fantasing stupid fancy bullshit like "antinazi militias" that will only cover your riot/class struggle porn spectacle tastes and get serious, because times are serious. The working class worldwide has needs, is in organising ruins and you are daydreaming like morons. Snap out of it.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Well said Delenda.

Although fighting the fascists in the streets is necessary, the battle is decided in the factories, shipyards, and fields. I of course support violence against fascists any day of the week, but the KKE must maintain its focus on agitating the working class.

[Delenda Carthago]

This is Poulikogiannis, speaking today on a demonstration of the LARKO industry workers. Thats what a communist needs to do. He got jumped, and two days afterwards he speaks to workers, not lowering his voice or nothing.

p0TES_-cEsE


This is how you defeat fascism.

[Thirsty Crow]

Α. KKE knows very well how to protect itself against the System and its fascist goons.We're not talking about KKE, but working class self-defense. You seem to be mistaking KKE for the class.


We dont need advices on what to do.That's mighty fine, what use there could be of comradely opinion of other radicals. This is symptomatic of sectarianism, in that it posits one party as the sole arbiter without any need of contact and dialogue.


KKE responded immidiately calling for a massive demo the next day. Here you can see the demo outside the offices of GD at Perama.
And one of the aspects of this demo is the demand on the state to eliminate the fascist threat. Which is either

a) delusional, since it doesn't understand the relationship between the state and fascism, or

b) manipulative and dishonest - a kind of a transitional demand (KKE using Trotskyist methods?), manipulating the workers into thinking that the state could deal with the threat; coupled with other claims as to the nature of this state, this becomes unintelligible bollocks, claiming something and its opposite at the same time (but reality is dialectical and contradictory, isn't that right?)



Communists are not thugs. Their role is not to get into a gang war with fascists like those idiots you posted above. Their role, and thats what hurts the nazis the most, is to be the forefront on every worker struggle there is out there.
Bullshit.

What is at stake here is autonomous class response through its own organs. This seems to be missing from the rosy picture of standing at the forefront, which up til now has led to probably nothing at all in Greece.

[Delenda Carthago]

We're not talking about KKE, but working class self-defense. You seem to be mistaking KKE for the class.

You seem to be an idiot. I dont know who authorised you to represent him with that "we", but people like AJ(for example) talked on KKE in specific.



That's mighty fine, what use there could be of comradely opinion of other radicals. This is symptomatic of sectarianism, in that it posits one party as the sole arbiter without any need of contact and dialogue.
We are not comrades with the opportunists. Left and right wing. We are more close to enemies. Specially when these opportunists have no real experience of neither the situation in Greece, or class struggle in general, other than posts on Revleft.:rolleyes:


And one of the aspects of this demo is the demand on the state to eliminate the fascist threat. Which is either This is either

A. Stupid
B. Lie




What is at stake here is autonomous class response through its own organs. This seems to be missing from the rosy picture of standing at the forefront, which up til now has led to probably nothing at all in Greece.First of all, the communist party IS autonomous class organ. The highest from of it.

Second of all, even by your own standarts this is stupid. An attack on KKE needs to be answered by "autonomous class responce"?


And btw, what does "autonomous action":rolleyes: has lead to ANYWHERE, ANYTIME?

[aty]

And you dont think that if you can do that to them they cant do that to you? This is precisely playing into their hands - giving them what they want. Can you not see that? Self defence is perfectly legimate but dont give them the excuse to embark on the civil war they crave
If KKE organised this Golden Down would not stand a chance. The fascists dont have such a large organised movement as KKE have behind them. The only thing Golden Down is interested in right now is parlamentarian power, they got no social project or union to organise behind. Too draw them into a street war would not benefit them at this moment in time. And it is a street war were socialists always have to be ready to be the most violent. It is better to do it at this moment in time when they do not have built a mass movement yet. It does not even take a lot of force to do this.

I am sure antifascists in Germany in the 30s argued exactly like you do. But in this I trust Hitler;
"Only one thing could have stopped our movement - if our adversaries had understood its principle and from the first day smashed with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement."

[Delenda Carthago]

Btw, dont let me be misunderstood, I m not saying that everyone that spoke its mind is an opportunist. Specially AJ that I named, I dont know you dude, dont get it personal. :grin:

[Thirsty Crow]

You seem to be an idiot. I dont know who authorised you to represent him with that "we", but people like AJ(for example) talked on KKE in specific.

Flaming much?

I don't care about who talked of KKE in specific. My point is that such focus, especially coming from you for instance, is symptomatic of mistaking your organization for the class.


We are not comrades with the opportunists. Left and right wing. We are more close to enemies. Specially when these opportunists have no real experience of neither the situation in Greece, or class struggle in general, other than posts on Revleft.:rolleyes:So anyone forwarding a criticism of the action of KKE is opportunist? Who are these opportunists you're talking about?

To remind you, in your point A, in the first post on this subject, you declare KKE doesn't need advice on what to do. This includes everyone, from the Dalai Lama to e.g. ISO, CPB, and Greek workers who aren't party members, and not part of PAME either.

If you misspoke, then frankly admit it, instead of throwing insults around.


This is either

A. Stupid
B. LieTake a look at the article posted on the first page. My opinions are provisional and depend on the accuracy of that information.


First of all, the communist party IS autonomous class organ. The highest from of it.
I'm not talking about organizational autonomy, but of class autonomy, and organs which are instrumental in facilitating such a development.


Second of all, even by your own standarts this is stupid. An attack on KKE needs to be answered by "autonomous class responce"?
Yes. Especially if, as you claim, KKE is the highest form of an autonomous class organ.


And btw, what does "autonomous action":rolleyes: has lead to ANYWHERE, ANYTIME?
For instance, the October Revolution.

[Delenda Carthago]

I don't care about who talked of KKE in specific. My point is that such focus, especially coming from you for instance, is symptomatic of mistaking your organization for the class.

Lets deep into the mind of LinksRadical for a moment.

A. Some people say "KKE should do this"
B. I answer that KKE knows what it is to be done
C. LinksRadical, speakin on behalf of everyone, says that I confuse the class with the party, because HE was not.
D. I point out that people didnt talk on the class, but the party.
E.LinksRadical, speakin on behalf of everyone, says that I confuse the class with the party, because HE was not.


https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlbI9lNzw7zeShLU8UqTwTEutyeN7cL 7wxO6S9EVgGyddAP5Zt


Who are these opportunists you're talking about?
You, at the moment.


Take a look at the article posted on the first page. My opinions are provisional and depend on the accuracy of that information.

Well then, you should be more careful about forming opinions on things. A newspaper article from a bourgeois media in another country is not the best example of "autonomous class information".

Here (http://902.gr/eidisi/ergatiki-taxi/26692/sygkentrosi-katadikis-tis-hrysis-aygis-tin-triti)you can find the call for a demo in Perama in 2 days. Google translate it and tell me where
A. GD is being mentioned like something other that the long hand of the system and the guardog of the Capital.
B. Where there is the call for the State to get involved with the situation.




I'm not talking about organizational autonomy, but of class autonomy, and organs which are instrumental in facilitating such a development.

Of course it is. Thats what I(and KKE) am sayin all along.

[Thirsty Crow]

Lets deep into the mind of LinksRadical for a moment.

A. Some people say "KKE should do this"
B. I answer that KKE knows what it is to be done
The result of your position is sectarianism. No need for dialogue and contact if KKE categorically doesn't need any advice (or discussion)



C. LinksRadical, speakin on behalf of everyone, says that I confuse the class with the party, because HE was not.I didn't claim I'm speaking on behalf of anyone but myself. Back that up with a quote or retract.
And yes, I'm not mistaking any political organization for the class. That's true.


D. I point out that people didnt talk on the class, but the party.
E.LinksRadical, speakin on behalf of everyone, says that I confuse the class with the party, because HE was not.
I said that D) is symptomatic of E). People should talk about the class as KKE doesn't comprise the entire class. The global class of wage laborers, that is.


You, at the moment.
Oh hell yeah.

You don't know what opportunism is if you think the concept can be used to refer to individual radicals discussing stuff.

So explain just how am I being an opportunist. Or retract.



Well then, you should be more careful about forming opinions on things. A newspaper article from a bourgeois media in another country is not the best example of "autonomous class information".Did anyone provide information to the contrary? Did you, perhaps?


Here (http://902.gr/eidisi/ergatiki-taxi/26692/sygkentrosi-katadikis-tis-hrysis-aygis-tin-triti)you can find the call for a demo in Perama in 2 days. Google translate it and tell me where
A. GD is being mentioned like something other that the long hand of the system and the guardog of the Capital.
B. Where there is the call for the State to get involved with the situation.Forget about it. Google translate is a poor solution. On the other hand, you're a native speaker. If what you say is true than surely you will be able to point out what happened on Friday as the article didn't deal with future events obviously.

[Delenda Carthago]

The result of your position is sectarianism. No need for dialogue and contact if KKE categorically doesn't need any advice (or discussion)

No, KKE needs a lot of discussion. And it does have lots of it.But not in public forums, not with people who have no ground solid idea of a situation, and fo sure not with people who disagree with its strategy and/or think of it as an enemy.

The discusion is been done within the party's organs, and with people who care about it.




I didn't claim I'm speaking on behalf of anyone but myself. Back that up with a quote or retract.



Originally Posted by Delenda Carthago http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2663888#post2663888)
Α. KKE knows very well how to protect itself against the System and its fascist goons.


We're not talking about KKE, but working class self-defense. You seem to be mistaking KKE for the class.

That was the conversation.

Who's "we" buddy? Do you suffer from some kind of multiple personality issue? If so, I am sorry and I take it back. But if you are not, name who else other than you is that "we", so that even though I didnt mentioned you in my first post, you felt the need to speak about it.







You don't know what opportunism is if you think the concept can be used to refer to individual radicals discussing stuff.

So explain just how am I being an opportunist. Or retract.

Of course I do. Opportunism is the penetration of bourgeois ideology in the labor movement. And that might take many forms, some right wing(ie reformism) and some left wing(ultra revolutionary leftism). History has showed, and this can be seen also in my country with the political collaboration of SYRIZA and all the small leftist parties, that those two have the tendecy to come together during the rise of the class struggle.







Forget about it. Google translate is a poor solution. On the other hand, you're a native speaker. If what you say is true than surely you will be able to point out what happened on Friday as the article didn't deal with future events obviously.

I hadnt read actually the first post, because the forming of it made it unbearable for my lazyness to occupy my time and energy.

First of all, Dimitris Psarras is a reporter known for his left winger-anticommunist stance. He has no fuckin place commenting on the issue.

Secondly, from the announcement of KKE, the Guardian, of course, took the most "safe" part. I will quickly translate the announcement, since its not yet on the english part of the website.

The KKE denounces the sneaky and murderous attack,from members of the Golden Dawn last night in Perama, against members and officials of the KKE and KNE who were ​​putting up posters propagating the 39th Festival KNE - " Odigitis ." From the attack nine members of the Communist Party were injured and were taken to hospital . Amongst them the president of the Syndicate Metal Piraeus , Sotiris Poulikogiannis and other members of management of the syndicate.

The way they acted and the tools they used - with cars and motorbikes , came from the surrounding narrow and sneaky attacked the members of the KKE and KNE with iron bars and rods , the edge of which had adjusted sharps -are proving the murderous nature of the attack .

Among golden dawn members , some with their faces covered , others in helmets and jerseys were others with their heads , were the known fascists and thugs of Perama Pantazis and Kastrinos .

Yesterday's murderous attack confirms the Nazi character of the Golden Dawn , which aims permanently KKE , because of its fighting for the overthrow of the rotten capitalist system that creates and nurtures fascism and Nazism . The attack on members of the KKE between whom were members of the Syndicate Metal Piraeus associations of Naval Zone whose action is a nail in the eye of capitalists confirm their role as minions of the system.

Workers , the unemployed and poor strata should condemn and isolate the fascists of the Golden Dawn and their thugish action. In concurrence with the Communist Party , strengthening the Democratic Alliance in workplaces and neighborhoods.

Giving immediate response, the party organization of Piraeus of KKE and KNE call today as concentration at 6 pm, at the Heroes Square in Perama .

The text that I gave you before is even more clear and thorough.

[Thirsty Crow]

That was the conversation.

Who's "we" buddy? Do you suffer from some kind of multiple personality issue? If so, I am sorry and I take it back. But if you are not, name who else other than you is that "we", so that even though I didnt mentioned you in my first post, you felt the need to speak about it.Sorry, I should have taken into account that English isn't your primary language. The "we" in the quoted part is figurative.

Do you need me to explain to you what constitutes figurative speech here?



Of course I do. Opportunism is the penetration of bourgeois ideology in the labor movement. And that might take many forms, some right wing(ie reformism) and some left wing(ultra revolutionary leftism). History has showed, and this can be seen also in my country with the political collaboration of SYRIZA and all the small leftist parties, that those two have the tendecy to come together during the rise of the class struggle.
Fine fine. Apart from the fact that this idiocy completely empties the term of any content appropriate to it. It is somehow opportune to have an ideological penetration, and bourgeois ideology actually takes refuge in left wing communism. Claptrap.

And of course, History (the capital "h" is also figurative) shows the inherent affinity between reformism and the ultra left. The latter in fact actively and consciously aids the former. As the examples of KAPD and contemporary ICT for instance show. Just how, we leave that to the workings of mystery which can only be penetrated by elevated revolutionary minds.

And I'd appreciate if you showed how TPTG collaborates with SYRIZA. I assume you're familiar with the former.

Now, as to opportunism, due to morons this term is very hard to use in a definite way. Though, it can be done:

1) it denotes the subordination of the programme of social revolution to immediate gains, to the point of oblivion - first of all, concrete economic gains for workers, but more significantly

2) electoral gains and more than obvious material gains for party candidates (to the extent of the latter actually overshadowing the former as the primary motor force)



I hadnt read actually the first post, because the forming of it made it unbearable for my lazyness to occupy my time and energy.So you are lazy. That's a very relevant issue.


First of all, Dimitris Psarras is a reporter known for his left winger-anticommunist stance. He has no fuckin place commenting on the issue.If the person, or the Guardian reporter, falsely reported on "leftists" calling on the state to wipe out fascists, show it.


Secondly, from the announcement of KKE, the Guardian, of course, took the most "safe" part. I will quickly translate the announcement, since its not yet on the english part of the website.I don't know what the announcement has to do with it. We (figurative, again) are not talking about what you linked, the call for action on next Tuesday. A demo took place on Friday, and what was called for at the demo, not in the announcement, is the issue here.


The KKE denounces the sneaky and murderous attack,from members of the Golden Dawn last night in Perama, against members and officials of the KKE and KNE who were ​​putting up posters propagating the 39th Festival KNE - " Odigitis ." From the attack nine members of the Communist Party were injured and were taken to hospital . Amongst them the president of the Syndicate Metal Piraeus , Sotiris Poulikogiannis and other members of management of the syndicate.

The way they acted and the tools they used - with cars and motorbikes , came from the surrounding narrow and sneaky attacked the members of the KKE and KNE with iron bars and rods , the edge of which had adjusted sharps -are proving the murderous nature of the attack .

Among golden dawn members , some with their faces covered , others in helmets and jerseys were others with their heads , were the known fascists and thugs of Perama Pantazis and Kastrinos .

Yesterday's murderous attack confirms the Nazi character of the Golden Dawn , which aims permanently KKE , because of its fighting for the overthrow of the rotten capitalist system that creates and nurtures fascism and Nazism . The attack on members of the KKE between whom were members of the Syndicate Metal Piraeus associations of Naval Zone whose action is a nail in the eye of capitalists confirm their role as minions of the system.

Workers , the unemployed and poor strata should condemn and isolate the fascists of the Golden Dawn and their thugish action. In concurrence with the Communist Party , strengthening the Democratic Alliance in workplaces and neighborhoods.

Giving immediate response, the party organization of Piraeus of KKE and KNE call today as concentration at 6 pm, at the Heroes Square in Perama .Super, great. It would be very weird if the same organization called for state action while producing this.

[Delenda Carthago]

Sorry, I should have taken into account that English isn't your primary language. The "we" in the quoted part is figurative.

Do you need me to explain to you what constitutes figurative speech here?

A ha ha. You are funny. So when I was talking on people that actually talked about KKE, and for an incident that was about KKE, you figurative spoke on autonomous class blahblahblah? Ok then...




Fine fine. Apart from the fact that this idiocy completely empties the term of any content appropriate to it. It is somehow opportune to have an ideological penetration, and bourgeois ideology actually takes refuge in left wing communism. Claptrap.



And I'd appreciate if you showed how TPTG collaborates with SYRIZA. I assume you're familiar with the former. Well, that would take for TPTG to actually exist. Do they?Havent heard from them in years. Are they still the same 7 people?




If the person, or the Guardian reporter, falsely reported on "leftists" calling on the state to wipe out fascists, show it. Show what? I already translated the statement of KKE on the incident. Where the reported found that "leftists" are asking the state to "take action" is not my problem.KKE can be held accountable for what KKE says. Not for whatever an idiot says it says. For all I know, it might have been TPTG that asked for that...


I don't know what the announcement has to do with it. We (figurative, again) are not talking about what you linked, the call for action on next Tuesday. A demo took place on Friday, and what was called for at the demo, not in the announcement, is the issue here. The announcement is from the same day the incident happened. Didnt you saw that it calls for "today"?

[Thirsty Crow]

Figurative "we". As in "we (the two of us) are talking (should talk) about X". Shifting the debate.


Well, that would take for TPTG to actually exist. Do they? Havent heard from them in years. Are they still the same 7 people?TPTG are an example. And yes, they do exist as a group. It is pretty much irrelevant how many people are there in the group. Remember, you said that the so called ultra left represents a strand of bourgeois ideology (its penetration into the movement) and that this can be seen in Greece with organizations collaborating with SYRIZA. You need to show a) how exactly are these a strand of bourgeois ideology and b) whether existing orgs collaborate in any way (even with sympathetic analysis and calls to vote for SYRIZA) with the said party. You can broaden this to include other countries, and if TPTG is too small for your tastes, you might want to address the ICT (especially Battaglia Communista) and ICC for instance.



Show what? I already translated the statement of KKE on the incident. Where the reported found that "leftists" are asking the state to "take action" is not my problem.KKE can be held accountable for what KKE says. Not for whatever an idiot says it says. For all I know, it might have been TPTG that asked for that...
Yeah, you're right in fact. The wording is vague and it is not clear whether it relates to the statements by KKE. So I retract what I said in that it applies to KKE.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I have always wondered, dont people in Greece know where the Golden Dawn fuckers live? Just go to their homes where they are vulnerable and isolated and smash them, with all the militants in Greece I cant see why this would be so hard.

There are no rules in the class struggle but victory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uRzQitmZVs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uRzQitmZVs)

Might have something to do with the fact that GD are in cahoots with old military junta veterans and the police, both of which can find out where you live in a matter of seconds, with one being heavily armed and having the state-granted authority to take you to prison.

It's no coincidence that every antifa clash with GD, no matter how isolated, ends up with the police arriving in minutes and focusing on the antifa protesters. The police aren't just working with the Nazis; many police in Athens ARE Nazis. There are numerous articles and filmed incidences all over the internet that demonstrate the blatantly obvious and unapologetic co-operation between law enforcement and Chrysi avgi, and the alliance (crossover?) is not something that's going to disappear when someone goes to a Nazis house and ends up finding out that that Nazi is chief of police.

[aty]

Might have something to do with the fact that GD are in cahoots with old military junta veterans and the police, both of which can find out where you live in a matter of seconds, with one being heavily armed and having the state-granted authority to take you to prison.

It's no coincidence that every antifa clash with GD, no matter how isolated, ends up with the police arriving in minutes and focusing on the antifa protesters. The police aren't just working with the Nazis; many police in Athens ARE Nazis. There are numerous articles and filmed incidences all over the internet that demonstrate the blatantly obvious and unapologetic co-operation between law enforcement and Chrysi avgi, and the alliance (crossover?) is not something that's going to disappear when someone goes to a Nazis house and ends up finding out that that Nazi is chief of police.
They should focus on the rank and file members, not the leaders. The leaders are already convinced fascists, the rank and file may have a lot more to lose. Undermine their membership base and stop them from getting new recruits.

If they dont start this work in Greece soon they are fucked. What I am hearing they are far to naive and afraid of the fascists.

[Delenda Carthago]

Another demo today in Perama by unions that are active in the area and are coiled in PAME. Photos and video here.
http://www.902.gr/eidisi/ergatiki-taxi/26692/sygkentrosi-katadikis-tis-hrysis-aygis-simera-sto-perama#/0

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

As I understand it, 9 communists were attacked and injured by Fascists, correct? What I don't understand, however, is why Fascists feel the liberty to attack communists.

Why does the KKE not openly denounce the capitalist constitution which has let the country go to ruins? Why does the supposedly revolutionary KKE not have its own organized violence? and why do the communist leaders not demand of the party to find out the names of the Fascist attackers who felt the liberty to attack the weak and why, if their identies are known, are there no retribution strikes organized? This should be natural. If you beat up communist and openly left wing workers, the communist party should demand of itself to terrorize the terrorists and make clear that if you join the racist terrorists your life will be even worse than it is during capitalist crisis.

Forget the latter part of my rant. What's clear is that if the communists stood on their own two feet and defended their brotherhood by not allowing unjust violence, is that the Fascists would openly invite it with more and more violence until civil war is the daily routine.

But it is clear that civil war (not to mention foreign invasion) will happen one way or another if there is to be Socialism in Greece. That is why communists in Greece should be agitating for and pushing worker leaders to arm the workers and organize party members into capable fighters.

[aty]

And while I was writing all that a 34 year old antifa activist from Athens has just been killed by fascists, stabbed to death.

[Le Socialiste]

Article says police are investigating it. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Solidarity.


Police are investigating an attack by a large group of neonazi Golden Dawn supporters on members of the Communist Party, which resulted in nine communists being taken to hospital.

The incident occurred just before midnight on Thursday in Perama, west of Piraeus, when a group of 30 KKE members who were erecting posters in a street in the town were set upon by a 50-strong group of Golden Dawn supporters, wielding iron bars and wooden bats.

The KKE said that the attackers wore Golden Dawn T-shirts and, although some were wearing scarves and helmets, eyewitnesses recognised at least two of the assailants. The party has named the two Golden Dawn members who led the attack on its 902.gr website.

Condemning the incident as a "murderous and cowardly attack by fascists", the KKE has called a protest for 6pm on Friday in central Perama.

http://www.enetenglish.gr/?i=news.en.article&id=1470

[d3crypt]

I think Greece needs some urban guerrillas at this time.

[Sasha]

No they don't (and they already do) they need an popular movement willing to conquer and defend the streets against fash and cops. And present an viable revolutionary alternative.

[d3crypt]

No they don't (and they already do) they need an popular movement willing to conquer and defend the streets against fash and cops. And present an viable revolutionary alternative.

That would be amazing, but the KKE seems like a bunch of social democrats to me. What sort of mass movement is there at the moment?

[#FF0000]

aight

[d3crypt]

Hella illegal post

I removed that part

[Os Cangaceiros]

Hella illegal post

Probably not much more illegal than the majority of posts I've seen on this site regarding fascist supporters, many of which involve beating, killing, the credible threat of violence, etc.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Probably not much more illegal than the majority of posts I've seen on this site regarding fascist supporters, many of which involve beating, killing, the credible threat of violence, etc.

Fascists do not count as human beings who have rights, the only right they have is the right to not exist. If contemporary, liberal-democratic constitutional Order is genuinely threatened not by us, the representatives of the Proletariat, but is attacked by reactionary agents of the crisis-ridden bourgeoisie, then all Law, legality or illegality is baseless and the only thing that counts anymore is violence, is for us to hold more guns than all the enemies of Socialism combined.

[#FF0000]

:rolleyes:

[TheEmancipator]

That would be amazing, but the KKE seems like a bunch of social democrats to me. What sort of mass movement is there at the moment?

The KKE is stuck in the past, we should support the Popular Front equivalent, that is Syriza.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Why? In spite of their horrible politics the KKE are definitely the ones with the more aggressive stance towards the fascists

[TheEmancipator]

Why? In spite of their horrible politics the KKE are definitely the ones with the more aggressive stance towards the fascists

Only in rhetoric. As psycho pointed out, it's fairly useless just beating up any old fash then boasting about it. Ask any real Antifa and they will laugh at KKE openly bugging up their credentials as violent proto-Stalinists. I doubt a media exposure is the first thing they want.

[Thirsty Crow]

The KKE is stuck in the past, we should support the Popular Front equivalent, that is Syriza.
Wow, talk about cognitive dissonance.
First the accusation of being stuck in the past, then proceed to show exactly that which is the object of the accusation - with the model of the Popular Front, historically shown as a complete failure for the working class.

If the situation is framed in this way, proto-Stalinist KKE v. the Popular Front, the battle is already lost.

[Paul Pott]

What else is KKE organizing in response?

[Sasha]

merged the two threads, splitted the more fundamental discussion between aty and robbo to here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/discussion-militant-antifascist-t183376/index.html?t=183376

[d3crypt]

So what real option is there in greece?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Only in rhetoric. As psycho pointed out, it's fairly useless just beating up any old fash then boasting about it. Ask any real Antifa and they will laugh at KKE openly bugging up their credentials as violent proto-Stalinists. I doubt a media exposure is the first thing they want.

I don't mean most aggressive in Greece, I mean compared to Syriza. You really think confronting fascism through parliament is a winning strategy?

LinksRadikal is correct in his assessment.


So what real option is there in greece?

Revolution

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

:rolleyes:

You disagree that there should be development towards arming workers in Greece?

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

What else is KKE organizing in response?

Nothing, that's the problem. It's quite clear that if the Greek Left wants to govern and positively change conditions in the country, it will have to not only fight against the Greek state of which 70% of its police force voted for a Neo-Nazi party, but the Fascist movement which you can count on is already armed to the teeth like all right wing movements.

[d3crypt]

Revolution
Well no duh, but how? All the left organizations engaging in social democratic parliamentarian activities is counterrevolutionary.

[Stalin Baratheon]

Fascists do not count as human beings who have rights, the only right they have is the right to not exist. If contemporary, liberal-democratic constitutional Order is genuinely threatened not by us, the representatives of the Proletariat, but is attacked by reactionary agents of the crisis-ridden bourgeoisie, then all Law, legality or illegality is baseless and the only thing that counts anymore is violence, is for us to hold more guns than all the enemies of Socialism combined.

Quoting someone that actually fought fascism: "Fascism is not to be debated, it is to be smashed." Buenaventura Durruti.

[Delenda Carthago]

Its been a fuckin hell of days, including strikes on many sectors, antifascist demos throughout Greece, some of them turing to riots, KNE festival and of course, the death of the young worker by the nazi stabbing. Obviously, occupying my time and energy to answer to accusations about... a "socialdemocratic" and/or "proto-stalinist"(whatever the fuck this is anyway) KKE by some nobodies is just not happening. As I said many times before, the opinion of people who consider the peak of their political action writing on revleft, have not striked for a milisecond in their lives and need to travel in other towns to meet another communist, just dont matter.


What has an interest though is this: the media and the government, in all this damage control situation that is happening for GD these days, are trying to pass the logic of "both radical ends" (ie the nazis and the communists) that need to be stoped.Equating the worker and pro people action of communists(striking, demonstrating, occupying and if it is needed, something more physical violence) with the murderous action of the nazi thugs, with their ultimate goal being banning both GD and KKE.
Today, they tryed to do something that was a new limit up to shamelessness on the history of greek society, by "reporting" that "sources say" that the bastard that murdered Pavlos Fissas, used to be either "a left winger" in general, or "a KKE member" more specific. A provocation that was so damn outrageous that blew in their faces within hours. But, that didnt stopped every damn fascist cesspit blog(with first of all some known secret agency "geopolitical website" trash) to spread the lie.

Oh, did I mentioned that GD left their man jailed hanged, claiming that they had nothing to do with him and that they didnt know him? To bad for them this is the information era, and pictures of the scum with PMs of GD leaked, also blowing that lie on their fuckin faces.