Europe must open it's doors!

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

And here's why:
do to the affluence of europe, people are living longer. now normally this would result in simply the older section of the population being larger.
But it also getting expensive to raise children, which mean less people consider raising a family.
Result: an aging population.
This is bad news. too many people too old to work supported by too few working age people mean a greater drain on the workforce. Taxes are raised to support the cost of illness of this ageing population.

There is another thing to consider: more work is being outsourced to less well-off countries with rising populations, this surfeit of jobs meaning that it is 'sensible' to have 6-8 kids who can work long hours and earn the family money.
Allowing immigrants to do the work they would normallly do in their home countries in europe would take the strain off 'outsourced' countries.
They would also pay taxes to look after both themselves and the ageing native population.
Even if they are dirt-poor by western standards, they will a better life in europe due to the better social security compared to their home nations.
This is of course paid for by both them and the natives.

Some foreigners are rich enough to start businesses in europe. this too should be encouraged.

Culturally it makes sense too. Europe has always been a melting pot for different 'races' and cultures.
anglo-saxons, norse, north africans,iberians, slavs, muslims etc, all within what is globally speaking a small area.
With the recent flood of light-speed communication, It is now easier than ever to find out what both sides say.
Care should be taken to reduce fricition between immigrants and natives. It is no good having a fit workforce if they are afraid to leave their homes. loyalty to race and culture should be discouraged,
the racial supremacists will of course scream bloody murder about 'the murder of western/white culture'
it should be pointed out to these poor souls that western culture IS about multiculturalism, since the Romans have left their influence over lots of europe, the muslims have left an influence in Spain, and the turks in Greece/Macedonia.
Multiculturalism can also breathe new life into the arts. Music has been influenced by rap and reggae, (Also the first rockers were black), Painting/sculpture by the 'naive' works of african tribesmen, australian bushmen, and the natives of oceania. Haiku is the japanese contribution to poetry.
The film influences of Bollywood, although considered tackily melodramatic by some, have to be admired for their sense of drama and romance.
Not to mention the culinary delights of Chinese, Indian, Thai and Mexican food. mmm.
And that's not all of it.

So throw open the doors and welcome the foreigner with a warm smile and a secure job!

-NoX

[Kez]

sure, but thats only sustainable in socialism, not under capitalism surely?

[Saint-Just]

Yes, I agree. Nations in Europe talk about probelms with handling immigration. The only problem is that we reject those who are economic migrants. Some say that foreigners commit crime and take money from our system. If this does exist to any extent it is the fault of our system that we have so much crime and that we do not provide people with jobs.

[Bianconero]

If this does exist to any extent it is the fault of our system that we have so much crime and that we do not provide people with jobs.

Not only that, comrade. These so-called 'economic' immigrats usually leave their countries because the western hemisphere rapes them, their land and their children. No wonder they are looking for a better life in the west.

[Funky Monk]

Talking of the problems of an aging population, have you seen the problems in Italy?

Whole villages are becomnig deserted as the residents die of old age and their few children move to the city.
Its happening all over Old Europe

[Inti]

I say fuck borders!!

Open all countries for everybody!! That is the only way to evolve.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 10:35 PM
I say fuck borders!!

Open all countries for everybody!! That is the only way to evolve.
If only!

That would be great.

[Kez]

how the fuck would that be great? it would just mean the capitalist could squeese the workers further more with more unemployed coming into the country. Particularly because 1st generation immigrants work their fucking bollocks off like 15 hours a day minimum, i dont think bosses will employ more high paying people...

[Funky Monk]

The immigrant problem is tolerated because they work for businesses. There must be a large number of organisations who are able to force illegal immigrants to work for shit.

[Inti]

I mean, why shouldnt the rest of the world be able to travel and work in whatever part of the world they want to just as me and a few percent of the worlds population? I have the blessing of being born in a "West" country and I think it bloody unfair that people from for example south america, africa, asia shouldnt have the same rights as me.. Abolish borders I say

[Guerilla22]

First of all I'd like to say that this is an excellent post. In sociology the term for fear of an influx of immigrants is called "xenaphobia" and it seems Europe seems to suffer from xenaphobia, especially in Germany. In fact the rise of immigrants from Central and Eastern Europe, Turkey and Africa has led to a rise in the popularity or extreme right political groups.

A couple of these groups have won small, but still noticable amounts of the parlimentry elections and in Austria, the son of an ex-SS officer (who just happens to also be a member of the far right) won the presidency and his politcal party won a large number of public positions.

[Kez]

I still disagree with opening of borders under capitlaist system, it will just mean the smashing of workers rights, as they will be pusheed down, coz for every worker presently, there will be some who have just come in, who will work for less, this will lead to cuts in wages, and a rise in racism. Who the fuck wants that?

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

North Korea must open its borders. :ph34r:

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 11:44 AM
I still disagree with opening of borders under capitlaist system, it will just mean the smashing of workers rights, as they will be pusheed down, coz for every worker presently, there will be some who have just come in, who will work for less, this will lead to cuts in wages, and a rise in racism. Who the fuck wants that?
I can't believe what reactionary shit you are posting here, Kamo. far away from any leftist perspective.
Go, and join your ideological friends of the BNP!
Smash Fortress Europe!

[Kez]

hmm, thats cheap Malte.

Dont you think the conditions of open borders should be under a socialist state?

The only other condition i can think of is of immigrants gaining 100% equal rights when they come here, and i cant see the capitalists agreeing to that, can you? and at the same time the left must be in a very strong position to oppose the blatant racism that would be spread, are we in a position to do this? Im pretty dissapointed in your respose

what are your views on my reply?

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by Malte+Jan 21 2004, 12:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Malte @ Jan 21 2004, 12:04 PM)
[email protected] 21 2004, 11:44 AM
I still disagree with opening of borders under capitlaist system, it will just mean the smashing of workers rights, as they will be pusheed down, coz for every worker presently, there will be some who have just come in, who will work for less, this will lead to cuts in wages, and a rise in racism. Who the fuck wants that?
I can&#39;t believe what reactionary shit you are posting here, Kamo. far away from any leftist perspective.
Go, and join your ideological friends of the BNP&#33;
Smash Fortress Europe&#33; [/b]
I agree. As the population of our country increases productivity will rise. There will be a larger workforce, as long as we have the resources to create employment for it our country&#39;s productive capacity will increase. In addition, our workforce is constantly becoming more skilled, so there are less and less people doing menial labour for low wages.

The influx of immigrants in the past has meant immigrants entering the country and taking jobs that British people are leaving because they are becoming more skilled. It is the same in other countries such as the U.S.

What you say is true to a minimal extent, that not all industries will expand and take on more workers, that some industries will not grow as fast as the population. Also, the suggestion that more immigrants will cause a rise in racism is similar to the right-wing argument that racism is inevitable because different cultures are fundamentally incompatible. As our society becomes more diverse in its ethnicity it will not necessarily lead to greater racism.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 02:12 PM
hmm, thats cheap Malte.

Dont you think the conditions of open borders should be under a socialist state?

The only other condition i can think of is of immigrants gaining 100% equal rights when they come here, and i cant see the capitalists agreeing to that, can you? and at the same time the left must be in a very strong position to oppose the blatant racism that would be spread, are we in a position to do this? Im pretty dissapointed in your respose

what are your views on my reply?
Is that really the position of you, or your Trotzkyist sect? If so, they are a bunch of nationalist oppourtunists, and obviesly fishing for votes within the far Right.
Your position is so reactionary and pseudo-leftist, I can&#39;t believe you don&#39;t realize it by yourself. Who can you grant immigrants 100% equal rights, when you deny to let them come in your country at all? What a fucking hypocricy&#33; A socialist state is very very far from reality, what you are saying is theoretical bullshit, this is not about socialism, but about oppose and fight the inhuman capitalist reality, which grants prosperity and wealth only to about 1% of the world population, while people are starving and oppressed in the rest of the world.

[RedAnarchist]

Most of the world&#39;s problems can be solved by a global Communist revolution - hunger, poverty, famine etc etc

[Kez]

oh dear me, Malte, keep your shouting to yourself, you hero of the masses...

"Is that really the position of you, or your Trotzkyist sect? If so, they are a bunch of nationalist oppourtunists, and obviesly fishing for votes within the far Right."
-Nope, this is my own stance

"Your position is so reactionary and pseudo-leftist, I can&#39;t believe you don&#39;t realize it by yourself. Who can you grant immigrants 100% equal rights, when you deny to let them come in your country at all? What a fucking hypocricy&#33;"
-Well if you read my post, youd see that i support the immigrants coming in ON CONDITION that they have 100% the same rights as indigenous workers

"A socialist state is very very far from reality, what you are saying is theoretical bullshit, this is not about socialism, but about oppose and fight the inhuman capitalist reality, which grants prosperity and wealth only to about 1% of the world population, while people are starving and oppressed in the rest of the world. "
-Yes very good, so how is allowing immigrants coming in going to
a) support the workers who are suffering from famine etc?
b) affect the workers who are being laid off here due to the recession?

The effect will be simple, the capitalists will use the cheaper labour, who will that benefit other than capitalists? What is the most effective way of helping the people who are forced to emigrate? Surely its by fighting for a socialist revolution here, which will end the imperialist raping of other lands?

I personally think your pissed that you couldnt respond to the previous differences of views concerning Iran...

Mao,
"I agree. As the population of our country increases productivity will rise. There will be a larger workforce, as long as we have the resources to create employment for it our country&#39;s productive capacity will increase. In addition, our workforce is constantly becoming more skilled, so there are less and less people doing menial labour for low wages."
First off, who controls the means of production? the capitalist, and in this current climate of economic decline, production will not increase, rather cheaper labour will be used. Are you supporting immigrants coming in just so thet can have "menial labour for low wages", sorry but most immigrants come to the west with diplomas

"The influx of immigrants in the past has meant immigrants entering the country and taking jobs that British people are leaving because they are becoming more skilled. It is the same in other countries such as the U.S."
a)you have any sources to prove that
b)new workers are forcing indeginous labour out, rather than workers leaving, i dont see the benefits of that

"What you say is true to a minimal extent, that not all industries will expand and take on more workers, that some industries will not grow as fast as the population. Also, the suggestion that more immigrants will cause a rise in racism is similar to the right-wing argument that racism is inevitable because different cultures are fundamentally incompatible. As our society becomes more diverse in its ethnicity it will not necessarily lead to greater racism."
-No i believe racism will rise, because the right is in a better position than ourselves to spread their ideas, than we can spread ours.

-Maybe if there was a shortage of workers, borders could be loosened to increase productivity, however that is why under a socialist state can we really smash the borders, more workers come? Bang, you put up new factories or offices for people to work, and on the other side, you can begin a revolutionary war to smash up other bourgeoise states, allowing workers in other countries to take power of their own destinies, than being forced to leave families to go to another country.

What are your opinions?
I am not fixed to my opinions, i think its an interesting issue, and if we cut out the slogans and the smearing campaigns, then maybe we can all improve and develop our ideas?

[Kez]

just to add as a note, i think to answer the question, we must think what will ultimately benefit the workers (internationally, as workers have no borders), and the workers only, we shouldnt concern outselves in what would benefit the capitalists.

[Edelweiss]

I personally think your pissed that you couldnt respond to the previous differences of views concerning Iran...

WTF? what are you talking about? Which different views concerning Iran??? I&#39;m just totally pissed off about your petty-bourgois, reactionary, pseudo-socialist stance, which is in no way different in it&#39;s result from bourgois and nationalist opnions.
You can&#39;t seriously advocate the outrageous opnion to advice workers from 3rd world countries, while sitting in your armchair in front of a computer, to start a socialist revolution in their own country instead of coming to your own nation where they while "steal" some of the welath of the British working class. Think again, Kamo.

[Kez]

ok, well, could you reply my points

i dont think i said they would steal british wealth, so i dunno why u put that in quotation marks :unsure:

in anycase, id like to hear your reply first, maybe you can persuade me, but answer me this question, what will be the effect of immigrants freely entering a country, when the capitalists are laying off workers?

The immigrant workers will be exploited to a worse extent than british workers, and the british workers wont be hired as they want to be paid a fairer wage. That is why in my opinion, it is not sustainable in a CAPITALIST system, to allow immigrants to enter freely, that is my opinion, i look forward to your replies comrade. And i apologise for seeming what you called me, i hope it was a misunderstanding, and look forward to the opportunity to rectifying your opinion of me.

yours in struggle

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 05:18 PM
ok, well, could you reply my points

i dont think i said they would steal british wealth, so i dunno why u put that in quotation marks :unsure:

in anycase, id like to hear your reply first, maybe you can persuade me, but answer me this question, what will be the effect of immigrants freely entering a country, when the capitalists are laying off workers?

The immigrant workers will be exploited to a worse extent than british workers, and the british workers wont be hired as they want to be paid a fairer wage. That is why in my opinion, it is not sustainable in a CAPITALIST system, to allow immigrants to enter freely, that is my opinion, i look forward to your replies comrade. And i apologise for seeming what you called me, i hope it was a misunderstanding, and look forward to the opportunity to rectifying your opinion of me.

yours in struggle
Our discussion is leading nowhere, I think I have make my point very clear...

[Kez]

come on Malte,
i made numerous points, i dunno why u not responding, i want to know more, maybe i am incorrect, but where? what points do you disagree with?

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 05:32 PM
come on Malte,
i made numerous points, i dunno why u not responding, i want to know more, maybe i am incorrect, but where? what points do you disagree with?
I think I have already stated why you are incorrect, but you obviesly fail to understand my point.
Good luck in fighting for a "sustainable capitalism" and for "100% equal rights for immigrants" while denying that they come to your country at all. I&#39;m shure all potential immigrants will apreciate it while beeing tortured or while worrying about how to survive the next day.

[Kez]

ok,

my point is capitalism CANNOT be sustainable, therefore it would be a contrdiction to all immigrants to enter a country.
2ndly, political immigrants should be granted immeeditate assylum, i have no question there, as even capitalism can sustain that many people.

when refering to immigrants i was refering to economic immigrants.
and i didnt deny immigrants to move countries, i said there should be conditions, and these conditions can not be met by capitalism, therefore, the alternative is socialism

you didnt answer my quesiton however:
"what will be the effect of immigrants freely entering a country, when the capitalists are laying off workers?"

[Saint-Just]

First off, who controls the means of production? the capitalist, and in this current climate of economic decline, production will not increase, rather cheaper labour will be used. Are you supporting immigrants coming in just so thet can have "menial labour for low wages", sorry but most immigrants come to the west with diplomas

I disagree, if production does not increase the world will be in as great poverty as it is now for eternity. I am saying that immigrants who are skilled for low payed jobs, I know a number of them where I work, will be able to gain employment. I know some immigrants are more highly skilled.

a)you have any sources to prove that
b)new workers are forcing indeginous labour out, rather than workers leaving, i dont see the benefits of that

I thought this was common knowledge. In the post war period there was an influx of immigrants into the UK, are you saying that since WWII unemployment has risen because of immigrants taking jobs of the indigenous labour force?

-No i believe racism will rise, because the right is in a better position than ourselves to spread their ideas, than we can spread ours.

It is not entirely a case of left versus extreme right, the majority of liberals oppose racism.



If immigrants enter this country and there are no jobs form them and as a result unemployment increases then there will be a problem. However, I don’t believe this will happen. As our population has risen more jobs have been created. I think there is a limit to how many immigrants Britain can manage at one time, and I agree that it would be easier if Britain were a socialist state.

If there are a greater number of immigrants in our country the problem of unequal rights will become a greater problem and therefore more likely that the government will take issue with the problem.

Germany allows many more immigrants, that is immigrant per capita, does Germany have a greater unemployment problem than Britain?

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 06:13 PM
ok,

my point is capitalism CANNOT be sustainable, therefore it would be a contrdiction to all immigrants to enter a country.
2ndly, political immigrants should be granted immeeditate assylum, i have no question there, as even capitalism can sustain that many people.

when refering to immigrants i was refering to economic immigrants.
and i didnt deny immigrants to move countries, i said there should be conditions, and these conditions can not be met by capitalism, therefore, the alternative is socialism

you didnt answer my quesiton however:
"what will be the effect of immigrants freely entering a country, when the capitalists are laying off workers?"
You should have said in your first post in this thread that you support political immigration, I would have been way less pissed off about you than...
However, in the end your whole argumentation is still totally based on classic right-wing arguments of how "immigrants take away our jobs" and therefore should stay in their own countries. You are an defender of the capitalist status quo with your argumentation, and a protector of the interests and of the wealth of the British people ONLY, no matter how socialist (actually totally reformist) you justify your anti-immigration stance. If you fail to see the inhumanity of barricared capitalist states and of the current deportation system, and how important it is to fight this reality, than I seriously doubt your leftist political consciousness. This is NOT about British workers who may get laid off, it&#39;s about questioning the whole bourgois concept of nations and closed borders entirely&#33;

[Kez]

"Germany allows many more immigrants, that is immigrant per capita, does Germany have a greater unemployment problem than Britain?"
-Well, Britains is around 1m and Germany&#39;s is 8-10 million, but i wouldnt say thats down to immigration.

Look, workers at the moment are being laid off, and production is being decreased, how will bringing in more workers increase production? all it will do is allow the capitalists to use cheaper labour, and make a tidy profit out of it too&#33;

"I thought this was common knowledge. In the post war period there was an influx of immigrants into the UK, are you saying that since WWII unemployment has risen because of immigrants taking jobs of the indigenous labour force?"
After WW2 production went into a boom, hence capitalism needed new sources of labour, ie immigrants, however, now capitalism is in recession, hence why thousands and thousands of workers are being laid off, add to this more workers (immigrants) who have no jobs and what you get? more unemployed

"It is not entirely a case of left versus extreme right, the majority of liberals oppose racism."
-Would these be liberals such as Ebert in Germany post WW1 where he unleashed Freikorps over the communists?
-when push comes to shove, the bourgeoise goes towards the right for help, ALWAYS, this includes liberals.

"If immigrants enter this country and there are no jobs form them and as a result unemployment increases then there will be a problem. However, I don’t believe this will happen. As our population has risen more jobs have been created."
-i think your going against fact, just look at unemployment figures, these will get much worse within next 5 years.

"If there are a greater number of immigrants in our country the problem of unequal rights will become a greater problem and therefore more likely that the government will take issue with the problem."
-Depends if we are capable of pressuring the bastards in government.

Comrade Malte,
"However, in the end your whole argumentation is still totally based on classic right-wing arguments of how "immigrants take away our jobs" and therefore should stay in their own countries."
-No, the jobs belong to us, and we should take them away from the capitalists, by taking over the means of production. Capitalism sets limits for jobs, correct? If you add more workers, then still they will be unemployed. Allowing more workers in does not solve any solutions.
I personally see no solution unnder capitalism, and im genuinly trying to find one, if someone knows, post it here.

"You are an defender of the capitalist status quo with your argumentation, and a protector of the interests and of the wealth of the British people ONLY, no matter how socialist (actually totally reformist) you justify your anti-immigration stance."
-Thats unfair, im hardly a defender of the status quo when im working for revolution of entire state, although i see where your coming from, in that i dont have a solution under the present system, but i think its unfair to say i defend the state.

"If you fail to see the inhumanity of barricared capitalist states and of the current deportation system, and how important it is to fight this reality, than I seriously doubt your leftist political consciousness. This is NOT about British workers who may get laid off, it&#39;s about questioning the whole bourgois concept of nations and closed borders entirely&#33;"
-I agree entirely comrade, and i personally cant wait to see all borders smashed, and with it the devises of the capitalists to split us, until that day, we must work towards

So in conclusion, i dont see a solution under capitalism, if someone knows a solution which would not lead to complete anarchy, please post it here, i would be very interesteed to see it

thanx