Travelling in a communist state

[catalunya]

This is my first post, and I have to say I am in the process of learning what communism is. I have a really vague idea, and for about a month I have been reading deeply into several texts and books in order to clarify what I thought communism was. I have a doubt:

Say we live in a communist state and there are two guys, Rob and Erik. Both work as a computer programmer and while Rob is really happy with his life in his home town, Erik has the desire to travel around the world and discover new places.

In a capitalist state I would say that what Erik has to do is work harder than Rob in order to find new clients so he can get more money to save so he will be able to travel around the world and therefore satisfy his desires. Rob in the other hand will be happy just working average, because his desires are just living in his town.

How would this work in a communist state? How could Erik be able to save enough money so he can travel around the world?

Thanks a lot for reading and I hope the question makes sense.

[Fourth Internationalist]

This is my first post, and I have to say I am in the process of learning what communism is. I have a really vague idea, and for about a month I have been reading deeply into several texts and books in order to clarify what I thought communism was. I have a doubt:

Say we live in a communist state and there are two guys, Rob and Erik. Both work as a computer programmer and while Rob is really happy with his life in his home town, Erik has the desire to travel around the world and discover new places.

In a capitalist state I would say that what Erik has to do is work harder than Rob in order to find new clients so he can get more money to save so he will be able to travel around the world and therefore satisfy his desires. Rob in the other hand will be happy just working average, because his desires are just living in his town.

How would this work in a communist state? How could Erik be able to save enough money so he can travel around the world?

Thanks a lot for reading and I hope the question makes sense.

About traveling, I'd say they could just do some sort of thing to get a ticket, like contact the airport ahead of time (website, phone, etc) and obtain a flight and time. Since things do not directly cost consumers in communisn, if it causes too many people to want to fly, then it would have to be rationed in a democratic manner (and say if you have family far away, you should be able to travel more, etc).

In communism, wages do not exist. Therefore there is no need to save up money. Also, communism is specifically a stateless and international society.

(Apologies for my crude wording, I am on my phone and it is just after 6:30 AM)


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[Questionable]

Communism is stateless and wageless, therefore the premise of this question is flawed.

I am not trying to be rude. Your question simply shows that you should gain a better knowledge of communism as a concept. Try reading Engels' "Principals of Communism" for a good entry point.

[helot]

In a capitalist state I would say that what Erik has to do is work harder than Rob in order to find new clients so he can get more money to save so he will be able to travel around the world and therefore satisfy his desires. Rob in the other hand will be happy just working average, because his desires are just living in his town.

This isn't how capitalist society works. I fear you've bought into the propaganda. Your income is not determined by how hard you work but by your relative power. If it was a factory worker would have a higher income than the owner of that factory but of course that's not the case because the owner owns the factory.

[tuwix]

This is my first post, and I have to say I am in the process of learning what communism is. I have a really vague idea, and for about a month I have been reading deeply into several texts and books in order to clarify what I thought communism was. I have a doubt:

Say we live in a communist state and there are two guys, Rob and Erik. Both work as a computer programmer and while Rob is really happy with his life in his home town, Erik has the desire to travel around the world and discover new places.

In a capitalist state I would say that what Erik has to do is work harder than Rob in order to find new clients so he can get more money to save so he will be able to travel around the world and therefore satisfy his desires. Rob in the other hand will be happy just working average, because his desires are just living in his town.

How would this work in a communist state? How could Erik be able to save enough money so he can travel around the world?

Thanks a lot for reading and I hope the question makes sense.

I think we should clarify some things.
First of all, there can't exist something called “communist state”. Certainly, the press using this term but it is impossible. Communism assumes stateless society.
Secondly, in the system called communism money don't exist.

I hope this will help to understand what communism is. :)

[catalunya]

Thanks for the answers.

Let's not call it state, but society. How would one guy be able to travel several countries because that would be what makes him happy? In our society nowadays, travelling is expensive and I fail to see how would this work in a communist society.

Thank you.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Thanks for the answers.

Let's not call it state, but society. How would one guy be able to travel several countries because that would be what makes him happy? In our society nowadays, travelling is expensive and I fail to see how would this work in a communist society.

Thank you.

As said earlier, moneys and currencies do not exist in a socialist/communist system.

[D_Loco]

This is my first post, and I have to say I am in the process of learning what communism is. I have a really vague idea, and for about a month I have been reading deeply into several texts and books in order to clarify what I thought communism was. I have a doubt:

Say we live in a communist state and there are two guys, Rob and Erik. Both work as a computer programmer and while Rob is really happy with his life in his home town, Erik has the desire to travel around the world and discover new places.

In a capitalist state I would say that what Erik has to do is work harder than Rob in order to find new clients so he can get more money to save so he will be able to travel around the world and therefore satisfy his desires. Rob in the other hand will be happy just working average, because his desires are just living in his town.

How would this work in a communist state? How could Erik be able to save enough money so he can travel around the world?

Thanks a lot for reading and I hope the question makes sense.

why travel the world when you already in a perfect world communism is perfect more than you can imagine you don't have to think about savings coz in communism everything is abundant

[Creative Destruction]

Others here are right: when talking about communism, you have to start at the premise that it is a moneyless society.

Nobody knows and anyone attempting to give you an answer is bullshitting you. Sometimes people make a to-do about Marx not giving an answer to what a communist society would look like to a T, but I suspect that his reason for it (besides dying before he could attempt to give it) is this: this is why we have a socialist society, in order to reconfigure society in the interim -- the middle stage between capitalism and communism. Within the socialist society, to use Lenin's term, there are birth pangs. The democratic, proletarian polity will figure out how to organize society along socialist lines. There's just a framework for what passes as a socialist and communist society.

But yeah. You're looking for a definitive answer and no one can give you a definitive answer. And, really, it misses the point.

[tuwix]

Thanks for the answers.

Let's not call it state, but society. How would one guy be able to travel several countries because that would be what makes him happy? In our society nowadays, travelling is expensive and I fail to see how would this work in a communist society.

Thank you.

Communism is a system where everything is free. Travels too. And this is why we love it. :)

[BIXX]

why travel the world when you already in a perfect world communism is perfect more than you can imagine you don't have to think about savings coz in communism everything is abundant

Go home, D_Loco, you're drunk.

I just wanna say that we should probably explain more heavily why wages aren't required, or why the state isn't etc... As everyone is just saying "go read this or that" rather than giving an actual answer (some people are not following this trend but its a common trend on revleft). I'm at school right now so I'll give a more detailed answer later.

[catalunya]

Guys thanks a lot for the answers, it is helpful, but still I have doubts.

I am trying to ask the question in a way that can be answered in a communist society, but I might be failing to do so. I would like to know, how would the communist society be able to provide my willing to travel to several countries. It is being said that "all is free", but how could the society afford to fly people to countries?


why travel the world when you already in a perfect world communism is perfect more than you can imagine you don't have to think about savings coz in communism everything is abundant

Well, I might find really interesting and inspiring to travel the world. Either in a communist or capitalist society, I should be free to fulfill my desires if that doesn't imply hurting anyone, right?

[Fourth Internationalist]

It is being said that "all is free", but how could the society afford to fly people to countries?

If there's no money and production is for use not profit, then why is there even a question of whether or not it is affordable, which would imply the existence of money and currency?

[Comrade Jacob]

Guys thanks a lot for the answers, it is helpful, but still I have doubts.

I am trying to ask the question in a way that can be answered in a communist society, but I might be failing to do so. I would like to know, how would the communist society be able to provide my willing to travel to several countries. It is being said that "all is free", but how could the society afford to fly people to countries?



Well, I might find really interesting and inspiring to travel the world. Either in a communist or capitalist society, I should be free to fulfill my desires if that doesn't imply hurting anyone, right?


Once again it doesn't cost anything. You earn *"money" from the amount of work-time you do. Let's say you worked for 10 hours you could "afford" a 10 hour trip. It really is simple.

*It's not really money because labour is the source of value and unlike money it has inherent value.

[tuwix]

Guys thanks a lot for the answers, it is helpful, but still I have doubts.

I am trying to ask the question in a way that can be answered in a communist society, but I might be failing to do so. I would like to know, how would the communist society be able to provide my willing to travel to several countries. It is being said that "all is free", but how could the society afford to fly people to countries?



Well, I might find really interesting and inspiring to travel the world. Either in a communist or capitalist society, I should be free to fulfill my desires if that doesn't imply hurting anyone, right?

Right. :)
Seemingly you're asking about mechanism that will allow the travel to be free.
I must say that in some small parts of this planet travel is free. For example Polish town Żory. The town hall announced that travels within the town is free. The costs to the budget of town is so insignificant that they decided that it is now free.

And there is clue. Prices of some goods are less and less. In medieval age for ounce of salt or pepper you could buy a village with inhabitants as slaves included. Now the price of it is so insignificant that nobody cares about it. The development of technologies allowed that. Technologies causes that less and less people is needed to produce any products. This is why governments stimulated a development of services to get a job to the people. And there will be a time when over 95% of job really needed will be done by machines and cost of majority of things will become insignificant as cost of salt or cost of transport in town of Żory. Then money will become obsolete. And this is why everything will be free. :)

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Thanks for the answers.

Let's not call it state, but society. How would one guy be able to travel several countries because that would be what makes him happy? In our society nowadays, travelling is expensive and I fail to see how would this work in a communist society.

Thank you.

He could perhaps find a vocation which would allow him to travel. I'm the exact same as this Erik, I have to travel. It's not a want or need, I have to, or I would quite literally go insane. I would assume he would just merely find ways in which he could travel. In a Communist society, we as workers would be free of a great number of burdens which hinder us pursuing what others of means are able to pursue.

[Art Vandelay]

Communism is specifically a society of free producers, one would have the opportunities to do as one pleases.

[argeiphontes]

Just because a society didn't have money doesn't mean you couldn't borrow from it. Maybe you could exchange a year of free travel in exchange for a year or two in a socially necessary but less desirable job when you return? Such that it balances out, in the manner of ParEcon's "balanced job complexes". Your "job" for that year would be just to travel because you've made suitable arrangements to "pay" it back somehow.

[Art Vandelay]

Just because a society didn't have money doesn't mean you couldn't borrow from it. Maybe you could exchange a year of free travel in exchange for a year or two in a socially necessary but less desirable job when you return? Such that it balances out, in the manner of ParEcon's "balanced job complexes". Your "job" for that year would be just to travel because you've made suitable arrangements to "pay" it back somehow.

Once again, communism is a society of 'free producers,' ie: society has developed a relative abundance of resources to the point where the concept of 'paying' anything back has become obsolete. If there is a need to 'pay X back' to someone, there also implicitly exists a market.

[argeiphontes]

^Ok, I can see that. Thanks. But how would the travel be allocated then?

[Art Vandelay]

^Ok, I can see that. Thanks. But how would the travel be allocated then?

Well this is where the conception of socialism and communism meaning different things comes into play. I personally consider communism and socialism to mean separate things. Socialism referring to the conditions immediately following the seizure of state power from the bourgeoisie (the process of full collectivization) and communism referring to the point in time where the proletariat succeeds in its historical mission of abolishing itself as a class and thereby abolishing all other socio-economic classes with it. So under socialism, there would indeed need to be some sort of organization and distribution of resources, ie: you couldn't simply travel whenever you wished, because there would only be a certain amount of socially available resources for travel, which would need to be divided equally. However in a communist society, there would exist a conditoin of 'free producers,' ie: society has developed an abundance of resources, due to the communal nature of the mode of production, where each individual has become a 'free producer' and now has the resources at his/her disposal to do as they please and to freely develop themselves as a human being. I mean that was ultimately Marx's point, not that this state of freedom was inevitable, but that there existed a certain rational development to human societies that could potentially lead to a state of liberation, or as he called it the end of pre-history and the establishment of history.

[argeiphontes]

However in a communist society, there would exist a conditoin of 'free producers,' ie: society has developed an abundance of resources, due to the communal nature of the mode of production, where each individual has become a 'free producer' and now has the resources at his/her disposal to do as they please and to freely develop themselves as a human being.

What would this mean in practical terms? Or what's at least one possibility? What if I felt that my true calling in life was underwater photography of Great White sharks. To accomplish my free self-development in this area, I'd need not only world travel but expensive equipment, a crew to assist me and to run the boat, and a boat, shark cage, etc. How would this be allocated in a fair way by society?

Recreation and spontaneity are important. How would a communist society deal with these necessities? Will I have to order all my beer a year in advance? Please ignore this last paragraph if it's beyond the scope of the thread, but I think these are important questions for a prospective society to answer.

edit: And why I lean toward libertarian socialism.

[#FF0000]

A communist society is one that is totally beyond scarcity. In a society transitioning between capitalism and communism, I think it would be reasonable to say that there would be rationing on certain things that are especially rare, difficult to produce, etc. etc. If, for some reason, travel had to be limited/rationed in some way, you'd probably see something equivalent to pre-paid Metrocards for so many trips per year, or something.

In any case, I don't really see why travel would have to be limited in any way. For things like buses or streetcars or subways -- just get on and go. I imagine things like flights would have to be "booked" in advance (without, you know, paying for it).

[#FF0000]

more navel gazing, guessing, bullshitting, imagineering, day dreaming


What would this mean in practical terms? Or what's at least one possibility? What if I felt that my true calling in life was underwater photography of Great White sharks. To accomplish my free self-development in this area, I'd need not only world travel but expensive equipment, a crew to assist me and to run the boat, and a boat, shark cage, etc. How would this be allocated in a fair way by society?

You'd probably be working with a voluntary association of marine biologists who are all invested in the project. The boat and the expensive equipment would be there for you to use.


Recreation and spontaneity are important. How would a communist society deal with these necessities? Will I have to order all my beer a year in advance? Please ignore this last paragraph if it's beyond the scope of the thread, but I think these are important questions for a prospective society to answer.

you better believe your beer of choice will be on tap in your very own home. failing that, it'd be freely available in a communist society (remember, no scarcity, go fucking wild) or rationed in some way if we really went through that much beer (a serious concern tbqh)

[argeiphontes]

How can a finite society be beyond scarcity? What if too many resources are being devoted to the travel industry and there is no longer enough for hospitals and schools, because when push comes to shove, most people would rather be on a beach in Jamaica than doing their civic janitorial duties?

edit: Thanks for the beer! ;-)

[argeiphontes]

The boat and the expensive equipment would be there for you to use.

That begs the question. I'm interested in *why* the boat is there for me to use, and not something else is produced, just because I want it.

[#FF0000]

How can a finite society be beyond scarcity?

Only through technology. As it is, I really think worrying about "scarcity" is sort of a red-herring. We might not be to the point where everything is totally and freely available to all -- but we can definitely meet people's needs and then some.



What if too many resources are being devoted to the travel industry and there is no longer enough for hospitals and schools, Then fewer resources would be devoted to the travel industry and more to hospitals and schools.


because when push comes to shove, most people would rather be on a beach in Jamaica than doing their civic janitorial duties?Seek to make work as pleasant and simple as possible (this is easy, to be honest) and automate as much unpleasant work as possible.


That begs the question. I'm interested in *why* the boat is there for me to use, and not something else is produced, just because I want it. Well I don't think it'd be like you could just walk up to the boat and take right out of the Marina like it was your own. It would be used by whatever institution/association/commune/whatever you'd be working with.

[argeiphontes]

I just think that if someone wanted to do something that used more social resources than it produced, like me pretending I'm an awesome shark photographer, or the OP spending an entire year travelling around the world, it would be fair to ask that person to perform a more onerous or difficult or longer task in return. What makes somebody eligible to have travel allocated to them? On what basis is it decided who gets to go and who has to postpone? In ParEcon this question is settled by an interative dialogue between producers and consumers which hash out an economic plan thru a series of bids. Not bad as far as I can see. There's room for borrowing against future production or consumption in that type of system.