Catalans join hands in huge human chain for independence from Spain

[KurtFF8]

Source (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/11/catalans-join-hands-human-chain-independence-spain)



Hundreds of thousands of Catalonians joined hands to form a human chain 250 miles (400km) long, running from the border with neighbouring France to the region of Valencia in a call for Madrid to recognise Catalan independence.
Wednesday, was la Diada, or Catalan National Day, when the region commemorates the defeat of its troops in the Spanish war of succession in 1714. And at 5.14pm the human chain – or Via Catalana – linked arms.
"I'm joining the Via Catalana because I think we should be consulted on our future. I think the rise of the independence movement comes from the people while the politicians prefer stagnation to change," said Maria Solé Bundó, who works on the family farm in Baix Penedès.
Núria Ruiz Soto, a hospital worker from Tarragona, said: "I've joined the Via because I think it's a good way of drawing attention to our desire to be an independent state and if they're not willing to listen to us, at least they can see us."
Independence has been a long-running battle between Catalonia (http://www.theguardian.com/world/catalonia) and Madrid, but as the recession continues to hit the country harder, demands for a referendum on secession have grown, and the National Assembly of Catalonia called on its supporters to take to the streets to show their strength. Polls suggest as many as 50% of Catalans want independence, and up to 81% support the right to hold a referendum.
The view from Madrid, where prime minister Mariano Rajoy (http://www.theguardian.com/world/mariano-rajoy) is that any independence referendum would be illegal.
Catalan president Artur Mas has said he would use elections scheduled for 2016 as an effective referendum on independence The National Assembly of Catalonia argues they should not have to wait that long, calling for a referendum in 2014.


Pretty interesting. While the two main parties pushing this in the region are at least left leaning, I'm not sure that an independent Catalonia would be different from many of the other neo-liberal countries in Western Europe (that's not to say I would oppose such independence on those grounds of course).


Then again I'm not too familiar with the political composition of this issue. Thoughts?

[Flying Purple People Eater]

It's true that there's a lot of anti-catalan sentiment in parts of Spain (Nationalists trying to ban Catalan being taught in schools or on public transport in Catalonia and Valencia, "Uno Espanya" kind of stuff).

That said, the current Catalonian independence movement, or at least the media and funding of the movement, is virulently right-wing, even though the rhetoric of some protesters may not be. Most of Eastern Spain's bourgeoisie are losing faith in Spain's stagnating economy, and want Barcelona et al., which is by and large the most industrially and economically developed region of Spain, to break away and become a lovely little tax haven. It reminds me a lot of people in Western Australia who want the state to become independent because it "produces most of the countries' wealth", except for the fact that it has a linguistic component (language often being an overlooked contributor to nationalist or separatist sentiments). While it may have some left-leaning protesters, the (rich folk's) intent and implications of independence are not.


Just my vague two cents. I haven't read up on Catalonia in about a year so this stuff might be a bit dated.

[TheEmancipator]

Pretty interesting. While the two main parties pushing this in the region are at least left leaning, I'm not sure that an independent Catalonia would be different from many of the other neo-liberal countries in Western Europe (that's not to say I would oppose such independence on those grounds of course).


Then again I'm not too familiar with the political composition of this issue. Thoughts?

The two left leaning parties being Esquerra Republicana and...? CiU are reactionary nationalists and populists.

I support the creation of a Federal Iberian Republic. I don't think an independent Catalunya benefits anyone but the petty bourgeois in Catalonia and the banks they are dependent on. Once the CiU declare Catalan independence it will exclude itself from any financial responsibility that Spain currently possesses.

The Basque countries have a far better case for independence. They are totally different from any other Iberian culture.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

The Basque countries have a far better case for independence. They are totally different from any other Iberian culture.

I agree with your post for the most part but is this really a strong case for independence? There are numerous reasons for independence in the Basque region (some I support), but I wouldn't have thought that something as simple as 'there is a different culture to the Iberian one' was one leftists were primarily interested in. I would've thought that leftists would support independence movements for economic or pragmatic reasons, not over how distanced the cultural gradient between certain people is.

If every single cultural claim to political independence was supported i.e. a state like Catalonia, then the world would turn into a gigantic Papua New Guinea. This is already happening in Africa where ethnic nationalist movements are being funded by oil and mineral companies to gain monopoly over conflict resources. We should recognise that not every independence movement on earth is a progressive one (letalone a pro working-class one), and should support them for particular reasons, not as a matter of principle (EDIT: to anyone feeling cite-hungry, yes, I know Lenin thought otherwise, and I disagree with him. So please don't throw a bunch of Lenin quotes at me because chances are I've already read them). Lebanon? Progressive. Catalonia? I doubt it. 'Boer state' white separatist Nazis in South Africa? Hell no.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

It's true that there's a lot of anti-catalan sentiment in parts of Spain (Nationalists trying to ban Catalan being taught in schools or on public transport in Catalonia and Valencia, "Uno Espanya" kind of stuff).

That said, the current Catalonian independence movement, or at least the media and funding of the movement, is virulently right-wing, even though the rhetoric of some protesters may not be. Most of Eastern Spain's bourgeoisie are losing faith in Spain's stagnating economy, and want Barcelona et al., which is by and large the most industrially and economically developed region of Spain, to break away and become a lovely little tax haven. It reminds me a lot of people in Western Australia who want the state to become independent because it "produces most of the countries' wealth", except for the fact that it has a linguistic component (language often being an overlooked contributor to nationalist or separatist sentiments). While it may have some left-leaning protesters, the (rich folk's) intent and implications of independence are not.

Just my vague two cents. I haven't read up on Catalonia in about a year so this stuff might be a bit dated.

The real question, I think, is whether independence is supported by a majority of the Catalonian proletariat and the plebean masses in Catalonia. If it isn't, socialists should ignore or oppose the independence movement without giving the illusion than a united Spain is a matter of principle for socialists. If yes, then socialists should support independence even if it is in the temporary interest of the Catalan bourgeoisie, since otherwise broad sections of the Catalan proletariat will remain under the illusion that their interests are aligned with the interests of "their" bourgeoisie and that the Castillan working class is their enemy.

[TheEmancipator]

The real question, I think, is whether independence is supported by a majority of the Catalonian proletariat and the plebean masses in Catalonia. If it isn't, socialists should ignore or oppose the independence movement without giving the illusion than a united Spain is a matter of principle for socialists. If yes, then socialists should support independence even if it is in the temporary interest of the Catalan bourgeoisie, since otherwise broad sections of the Catalan proletariat will remain under the illusion that their interests are aligned with the interests of "their" bourgeoisie and that the Castillan working class is their enemy.

It is, but they support the wrong party, that is the CiU. The Catalan "hatred" is directed more at the centralised bourgeois state in Madrid, with a constitution still loosely based on Franco's, rather than other Castillans, which is a major positive compared to other seperatist movements which base their support on hatred of the Other ( N-VA in Flanders, Lega Nord and perhaps even to a certain extent the SNP, who are still spreading the myth that Londoners look down on Scotsmen).

As for the Basque nationalist argument, I'm a supporter of it because the Basque people have such a different language, culture, etc that their local sovereignty must be strong to ensure it isn't absorbed into some kind of Spanish superstate. The reason the Basque independence has always been more violent in Spain is because Catalan identity, even under Franco, was never under threat because Franco ignorantly thought that if he sent some Castillan bureaucrats and purged the Republican remnant Catalonia would be under control,. Castillan Spain has always cracked down on Basque seperatism though, because Franco was well aware of their total opposition to Castillan dominance and cultural doctrine. I still thin Basque Country should be part of some Iberian Federation.

Castillans and Catalans have far more in common that Basques and Castillans. Interestingly, in my visits to Northern Iberia, I find tensions between Basques and Catalan nationalists to be very prominent, whereas they don't seem to care if anybody Spanish speaks Castellano for example. Just my perspective, although perhaps a Spaniard could elaborate a little more on the cultural divides.

[DDR]

It is, but they support the wrong party, that is the CiU.

Right now, if there were to be elections in Catalonia, ERC will win.


The Catalan "hatred" is directed more at the centralised bourgeois state in Madrid, with a constitution still loosely based on Franco's, rather than other Castillans, which is a major positive compared to other seperatist movements which base their support on hatred of the Other ( N-VA in Flanders, Lega Nord and perhaps even to a certain extent the SNP, who are still spreading the myth that Londoners look down on Scotsmen).

"Espanya ens roba" (Spain robes us) one of the main slogans of the burgeoise part of the independentist movement in Catalonia is partly true. Taxes and revenues from Catalonia are spend in developing and subsidize less underdeveloped parts of Spain, Extremadura for example. I bet if the get the same fiscal system as Basques and Navarrese they won't be protesting.


As for the Basque nationalist argument, I'm a supporter of it because the Basque people have such a different language, culture, etc that their local sovereignty must be strong to ensure it isn't absorbed into some kind of Spanish superstate.

And what about, Galaecians, Asturians, Leoneses, etc. lenguage isn't the only characteristic that makes a nationality.


The reason the Basque independence has always been more violent in Spain is because Catalan identity, even under Franco, was never under threat because Franco ignorantly thought that if he sent some Castillan bureaucrats and purged the Republican remnant Catalonia would be under control,. Castillan Spain has always cracked down on Basque seperatism though, because Franco was well aware of their total opposition to Castillan dominance and cultural doctrine. I still thin Basque Country should be part of some Iberian Federation.

That isn't true, lots of the catalonian big industrial burgeoise financed Franco's cuop. Hell, the airplane that brought him from the Canary Islands to Andalusia was property of a Catalonian industrialist. In the basque case, their national burgeoise (PNV) were with the republic (they bretrayed it latter) and many of it's politicians were to go into exile. Apart of the "racist" view of the righties in Spain againt the Basques.


Castillans and Catalans have far more in common that Basques and Castillans. Interestingly, in my visits to Northern Iberia, I find tensions between Basques and Catalan nationalists to be very prominent, whereas they don't seem to care if anybody Spanish speaks Castellano for example. Just my perspective, although perhaps a Spaniard could elaborate a little more on the cultural divides.

The people closer to Catalans are the Aragonese, as well as the "historic territories of the Catalanonian Countries" (Valencia and Baleares). Castillians are closer to the Leonese, Extremeños, Cantabrians and to some degree Asturians.

On a side note, I would like to point that the Catalonian struggle for independence is older (400 years if you count the revolt against Philipe II or 300 after their defeat against Philipe of Anjou) whereas in the Basque case is only 200 years old (since the 1st Carlist war) and until recently was a federalist movement, not seccesionist.

[TheEmancipator]

Right now, if there were to be elections in Catalonia, ERC will win.

They won't get independence though. Spain as whole needs a Republic for that to happen. I like their republicanism though.


"Espanya ens roba" (Spain robes us) one of the main slogans of the burgeoise part of the independentist movement in Catalonia is partly true. Taxes and revenues from Catalonia are spend in developing and subsidize less underdeveloped parts of Spain, Extremadura for example. I bet if the get the same fiscal system as Basques and Navarrese they won't be protesting.Parts of rural Spain needed redeveloping, and Catalonia's industrial development was partly funded by the centralised state in the first place.

We have the same debate in Belgium : The Flemish first kicked up a fuss over the industrialisation of Wallonia, and wanted more money to go them. Then when the Flemish dominated Christian Democrats took power they started heavily investing in Flanders post-war with money from Walloon industry. Now that the Walloon industry has been butchered, Flemish nationalists want secessionist measures. If we play tit-for-tat dickwaving instead of laying the blame on the true perpetrators (the bourgeoisie) then we might get some progress going.


And what about, Galaecians, Asturians, Leoneses, etc. lenguage isn't the only characteristic that makes a nationality.Except all those peoples and their dialects resemble castellano dialect. Basque doesn't resemble anything, not French, not castellano. Its just Basque.

Language is perhaps the major characteristic of the making of a nation state. The reason why Germany and italy united to form nation-states in the 19th century for example, was because of their common language. An Italian nation could have a claim to half the Mediterranean due to their roman roots, but you know they just settled for all the peoples who spoke something resembling italian.


That isn't true, lots of the catalonian big industrial burgeoise financed Franco's cuop. Hell, the airplane that brought him from the Canary Islands to Andalusia was property of a Catalonian industrialist. In the basque case, their national burgeoise (PNV) were with the republic (they bretrayed it latter) and many of it's politicians were to go into exile. Apart of the "racist" view of the righties in Spain againt the Basques.This is not contradictory to what I said!? Unless you're denying that Catalonia still remained by and large a place that Franco feared would rise up? He may have had support from their bourgeoisie, he didn't have much support from the proleteriat.