Israeli flag appropriate?

[Stalinist Speaker]

Is it appropriate for a far-leftist to wave a Israeli flag on an anti-fascist protest?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfitVXsy2l4&bpctr=1378983828 Israeli flag at 3:14

[#FF0000]

Nope.

Hella dumb people will do it, though.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Is it appropriate for a far-leftist to wave a Israeli flag on an anti-fascist protest?

As appropriate as waving an Apartheid South Africa flag or a British Raj flag.


Hell fucking no. Why would you even need to ask this question!?

Any 'far-leftist' who waves around zionist flags is no friend of mine.

[Stalinist Speaker]

As appropriate as waving an Apartheid South Africa flag, a Third Reich flag or a British Raj flag.


Hell fucking no. Why would you even need to ask this question!?

I am against this personally but i have seen people waving those flags and wanted to see what people in the revleft community think about it.

[synthesis]

I think the use of those flags is a reflection of the amorphous nature of the "anti-fascist" milieu itself, which is often a breeding ground for socialist collaboration with global capital and imperialism.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I am against this personally but i have seen people waving those flags and wanted to see what people in the revleft community think about it.

Did they, by any chance, have a blue coloured 'antifaschistiche aktion' symbol on their regalia at these protests (the Antifaschistiche aktion symbol is the circle with two flags lined up next to one another within it in the center symbol on the Revleft logo, between the hammer and sickle and the 'A')?

If they did, then you'd best stay clear of them. They're the rightist 'anti-deutsch' (otherwise known as 'anti-German') nutjobs who've infiltrated antifa groups all over Europe. They support ridiculous racist political positions based on historical quackery, such as bombing Germany and Iran, jingoistically defending racist imperial Israel's exploits in the Levant and supporting Israel's own little manifest destiny a.k.a. 'the right to the promised land'.

[Popular Front of Judea]

Where did you see the Israeli flags @Stalinist Speaker? There is in Germany the 'Anti-German' political tendency which does express solidarity with Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anti-Germans_(political_current)&printable=yes

They are active in anti-fascist organizing as you can see in the Wikipedia photos.

[Sasha]

Yeah, if it was in Germany it where probably anti-deutsche, I wouldn't go so far to call all anti-d's rightists, the hardcore Bahamas crowd are of course but you won't see them at demo's anymore, otherwise its ofcourse a sure fire way to wind fash up. But its stupid. The only kind of acceptable use of the Israeli flag is by the Ajax hooligans ;-)

[ВАЛТЕР]

Pro-tip: Don't bring any national flags to an antifascist protest. If you must bring a flag, bring a revolutionary one.

[Stalinist Speaker]

Did they, by any chance, have a blue coloured 'antifaschistiche aktion' symbol on their regalia at these protests (the Antifaschistiche aktion symbol is the circle with two flags lined up next to one another within it in the center symbol on the Revleft logo, between the hammer and sickle and the 'A')?

If they did, then you'd best stay clear of them. They're the rightist 'anti-deutsch' (otherwise known as 'anti-German') nutjobs who've infiltrated antifa groups all over Europe. They support ridiculous racist political positions based on historical quackery, such as bombing Germany and Iran, jingoistically defending racist imperial Israel's exploits in the Levant and supporting Israel's own little manifest destiny a.k.a. 'the right to the promised land'.

there were no anti-fascist logos that i saw not any blue atleast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfitVXsy2l4&bpctr=1378983828 at 3:14 there is an israeli flag.

[Stalinist Speaker]

Where did you see the Israeli flags @Stalinist Speaker? There is in Germany the 'Anti-German' political tendency which does express solidarity with Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anti-Germans_(political_current)&printable=yes

They are active in anti-fascist organizing as you can see in the Wikipedia photos.
this is an anti-racist protest in the US so its against American nazis. There is an Israeli flag on 3:14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfitVXsy2l4&bpctr=1378983828

[synthesis]

I voted "Yes" - not because I support people bringing Israeli flags to protests, but because it is indeed completely appropriate in the context of socialist "anti-fascism," for reasons stated above.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Most likely, the protesters are liberals or politically confused persons who are trying to provoke the Nazis with an Israeli flag. They really should have used an alternative Jewish symbol - one without an association with a colonial state. But probably, no political support for Israel was intended. I think the only socialist organisation in the US that might consciously turn an anti-fascist protest into a platform for Israel apologism is Solidarity. Possibly. The worst elements of Shachtmanism (like Sean "wearing the keffiyeh is a hate crime" Matgamna) are really in love with Israel.

[Brotto Rühle]

Israeli flag as a symbol of anti-racism?

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Paul Pott]

"Is the Confederate flag appropriate?"

[Sea]

They are all more beautiful in kerosene.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Is it appropriate for a far-leftist to wave a Israeli flag on an anti-fascist protest?


If it's on fire, sure, why not.

[Ocean Seal]

Anti Fascist = Promoting Nationalism and Ethnic Cleansing
According to some people I guess.

[Stalinist Speaker]

"Is the Confederate flag appropriate?"

Nope just as i said before i dont support the use of israeli flag just a question to the revleft community to see yours view. because i have seen Israeli flags used in anti-racist protests.

[motion denied]

People who voted 'Yes' could elaborate maybe?

Except for synthesis, of course.

[Comrade Jacob]

No, it's too ironic.

[Skyhilist]

Zionism is just the awful ideology that's replaced fascism. Nothing to celebrate and certainly not anti-fascist in that it shares so many similarities with fascism (e.g. nationalism, oppression of a religion, exploitation of a region, etc.)

[sixdollarchampagne]

Sorry, I meant to vote "no," but I pressed the wrong button – my dumb mistake, for which I apologize. The State of Israel is injustice personified, injustice highly armed, probably with nuclear capability, unfortunately. Waving that blue and white banner is something very like cheering for apartheid, except that apartheid has been defeated, while Zionism continues to wreak havoc against the Palestinians. It's difficult to think of anything more inappropriate, at an anti-fascist gathering, than waving the Zionist flag.

[4MyNation]

Fascism and Nationalism are two sides of the same coin, you can't have one without the other. I identify as human, nothing more.

Racial pride leads to racial tension, I try to avoid that. Most people here at RevLeft are against Racial Nationalism, while at StormFront everyone seems to think we believe in double standard racism (white pride=bad, everything else=good).

I don't believe in double standards at all. You can't have true equality with double standards.

[the debater]

Fascism and Nationalism are two sides of the same coin, you can't have one without the other. I identify as human, nothing more.

Racial pride leads to racial tension, I try to avoid that. Most people here at RevLeft are against Racial Nationalism, while at StormFront everyone seems to think we believe in double standard racism (white pride=bad, everything else=good).

I don't believe in double standards at all. You can't have true equality with double standards.

Amen. It doesn't hurt to emphasize that we are opposed to all forms of racial nationalism, and not just white nationalism. Now to be fair, many black pride and Hispanic pride groups in the U.S. are not racial nationalist groups who believe interracial marriage is evil. The problem with WNs is not that they want to be proud of their heritage, but that they think interracial marriage is bad, and that all non-whites should be kicked out of white countries, even if that means having to emigrate back to a backwards dictatorship where they're going to be persecuted.

[4MyNation]

Amen. It doesn't hurt to emphasize that we are opposed to all forms of racial nationalism, and not just white nationalism. Now to be fair, many black pride and Hispanic pride groups in the U.S. are not racial nationalist groups who believe interracial marriage is evil. The problem with WNs is not that they want to be proud of their heritage, but that they think interracial marriage is bad, and that all non-whites should be kicked out of white countries, even if that means having to emigrate back to a backwards dictatorship where they're going to be persecuted.

Not only that but when you and your parents were born in the country then they would already be adjusted and assimilated to it. Hwck my high school was a pretty much a rainbow and people got along just fine. Race-baitors in the media/social media are the ones responcible for racial tensions. It's funny because WNs like to pretend (ambiguous) to play the victim card and use words victims use such as "bigot, close-minded, backwards" whenever it's convenient. That's funny because to me nothing is more bigoted than hating (don't sugar coat it) people
based on ethnicity or skin color.

As I mentioned before, racism from and against anybody is wrong!

[Stalinist Speaker]

People who voted 'Yes' could elaborate maybe?

Except for synthesis, of course.

that was the point of this thread to see how any would vote yes.

[synthesis]

I just realized how amusing it is that by engaging in "anti-fascist" activities, socialists are doing the exact same thing that the fascists advocated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_collaboration#Class_collaboration_under_fasc ism) by espousing class collaboration between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie out of some imaginary "political necessity," often imperialist at its core.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

Pro-tip: Don't bring any national flags to an antifascist protest. If you must bring a flag, bring a revolutionary one.

Agreed. Zionism is just Nazism with another name and face. Nationalism of any kind cannot fit into communism/socialism. Nationalism will only create division.

Symbols meant to represent unity such as the Hammer and Sickle, Red Flag, or just a nice red star would suffice.

Just a quick question, what about a Soviet Union flag?

[SmirkerOfTheWorld]

Of course, with the pro-Zionist groups like the English Defence League you're more likely to see the Israeli flag flying on their side...

[Rafiq]

Of course, with the pro-Zionist groups like the English Defence League you're more likely to see the Israeli flag flying on their side...

It's use is limited to Germany, where neo Nazis have adopted the anti imperialist rhetoric of the new left. 'Anti imperialism' today has become reactionary, however the use of Israeli or American flags to combat them is pathetic and only reaffirms the nonexistence of an affirmative Left, it is no wonder you find so many racist antigermans, it's because there is a silent form of solidarity today between the European far right and Israeli nationalism only with the exception of Germany, whose neonazis perfectly embody the dissolution of any progressive anti imperialism inherent to Communism today (post 90s), the only progressive form of anti globalization that has ever existed was in the Zapatista movement, the rest were ultra reactionary. It's no wonder Maoists tend to be so damned socially conservative, raving on about bourgeois decadence.

Antigermans are confused, they see what many on the left cannot, yet decide to address it through bullshit like this.

[Remus Bleys]

What the hell are "anti-germans"?

[Rafiq]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current)

[Remus Bleys]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current)
Okay. So what do they see, in your opinion, that the rest of the left doesn't?
(like other wiki articles, this isn't really fleshed out and is to be taken with a grain of salt)

[Popular Front of Judea]

Their 68er parents?


Okay. So what do they see, in your opinion, that the rest of the left doesn't?

[Rafiq]

Okay. So what do they see, in your opinion, that the rest of the left doesn't?
(like other wiki articles, this isn't really fleshed out and is to be taken with a grain of salt)

The reactionary degeneration of anti imperialism, for one.

[Entfremdung]

Pretty sure the people waving the flag on that particular protest are using it (however naively) as a symbol of Jewish identity against a group of people who advocate the extermination of the Jewish race.

Doesn't look like a "far-leftist" protest either. You don't necessarily have to be an anarchist or communist to want to clear a bigoted, racist group of redneck stormtroopers out of your town.

[goalkeeper]

Agreed. Zionism is just Nazism with another name and face. Nationalism of any kind cannot fit into communism/socialism. Nationalism will only create division.

Symbols meant to represent unity such as the Hammer and Sickle, Red Flag, or just a nice red star would suffice.

Just a quick question, what about a Soviet Union flag?

Antisemitic bullshit like this makes me want to wave an Israeli flag and hold up a portrait of Theodor Herzl while wearing a Tottenham football shirt.

[cobrawolf_meiji]

Pro-tip: Don't bring any national flags to an antifascist protest. If you must bring a flag, bring a revolutionary one.

I would bring a red flag. I think people should keep National Flags out of Political Rallies and use them at national holidays or at The Olympic Games.

[cobrawolf_meiji]

Antisemitic bullshit like this makes me want to wave an Israeli flag and hold up a portrait of Theodor Herzl while wearing a Tottenham football shirt.

I agree

[DimSumMetal]

HELL NO!
As an Israeli, I really hate all those anti-deutche people who don't know shit.
You can't wave the flag of a fascist state in an antifascist rally or demonstration, it just doesn't work like that!

[Niall]

Certainly not in my opinion

[Niall]

It's use is limited to Germany, where neo Nazis have adopted the anti imperialist rhetoric of the new left. 'Anti imperialism' today has become reactionary, however the use of Israeli or American flags to combat them is pathetic and only reaffirms the nonexistence of an affirmative Left, it is no wonder you find so many racist antigermans, it's because there is a silent form of solidarity today between the European far right and Israeli nationalism only with the exception of Germany, whose neonazis perfectly embody the dissolution of any progressive anti imperialism inherent to Communism today (post 90s), the only progressive form of anti globalization that has ever existed was in the Zapatista movement, the rest were ultra reactionary. It's no wonder Maoists tend to be so damned socially conservative, raving on about bourgeois decadence.

Antigermans are confused, they see what many on the left cannot, yet decide to address it through bullshit like this.

I assume you mean its use on antifascist demos etc?

[A Psychological Symphony]

Antisemitic bullshit like this makes me want to wave an Israeli flag and hold up a portrait of Theodor Herzl while wearing a Tottenham football shirt.

Is this a joke? All who oppose the great nation of Israel are anti-Semitic! Pointing out Fascist or racist Israeli policies is Anti-Semitic! Questioning Zionism? Must be a racist Jew hating Nazi, right? That's the only explanation!

[DOOM]

You guys really don't understand the point of the Antideutsche.
the antigerman critic isn't just unreflected stupid philo-semitism. the Antigermans just understand the fact, that after the holocaust happened, the jewish people needed a safe haven to escape total annihilation. Indeed Zionism isn't the non plus ultra(like every other strain of nationalism), but it's crucial in a capitalistic world, to safe the jews from anti-semitism untill capitalism, statism and other reactionary ideas are overthrown.
if you understand german, this article will help you in understanding their points.
cafecritique.priv.at/Philozionismus.html

And the anti-semitism here is really frightening.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Nothing makes me angrier than when people confuse anti Zionism with anti semitism. I love Jewish people, as I love all people. I just do not agree with a Jewish ethno state, as I would disagree with any ethno state. There are so many Jews who actively protest the Israeli government's racist actions which gets about zero media attention. Confusing it with anti semitism would be like accusing me of hating Americans because I oppose the American government's policies. Utterly ridiculous.

[the debater]

And the anti-semitism here is really frightening.

We are not anti-semites. We simply have critical opinions of Jewish policies in Israel that have hurt the local Palestinian populations. That is all.

[Sinister Intents]

Of cousrs the fucking flag of zionism is inappropriate, we're alll antifascist and antizionist and anticolonialist, et cetera!!!

[Sinister Intents]

You guys really don't understand the point of the Antideutsche.
the antigerman critic isn't just unreflected stupid philo-semitism. the Antigermans just understand the fact, that after the holocaust happened, the jewish people needed a safe haven to escape total annihilation. Indeed Zionism isn't the non plus ultra(like every other strain of nationalisn), but it's crucial in a capitalistic world, to safe the jews from anti-semitism untill capitalism, statism and other reactionary ideas are overthrown.
if you understand german, this article will help you in understanding their points.
cafecritique.priv.at/Philozionismus.html

And the anti-semitism here is really frightening.

I'm not anti-semitic, but I am anti-religious. Fuck all religions and zionism!!!

[A Psychological Symphony]

You guys really don't understand the point of the Antideutsche.
the antigerman critic isn't just unreflected stupid philo-semitism. the Antigermans just understand the fact, that after the holocaust happened, the jewish people needed a safe haven to escape total annihilation. Indeed Zionism isn't the non plus ultra(like every other strain of nationalisn), but it's crucial in a capitalistic world, to safe the jews from anti-semitism untill capitalism, statism and other reactionary ideas are overthrown.
if you understand german, this article will help you in understanding their points.
cafecritique.priv.at/Philozionismus.html

And the anti-semitism here is really frightening.

Can you point out one actual anti-Semitic post in this thread? One that attacks Jewish people, and not the racist state that is Israel? I'm not seeing anti-semitism here I'm see a solid stance on anti-nationalism no matter who is portraying the nationalism.

[Sea]

We are not anti-semites. We simply have critical opinions of Jewish policies in Israel that have hurt the local Palestinian populations. That is all.The fact that you referred to said policies as Jewish rather than Israeli is certainly alarming.

[DimSumMetal]

You guys really don't understand the point of the Antideutsche.
the antigerman critic isn't just unreflected stupid philo-semitism. the Antigermans just understand the fact, that after the holocaust happened, the jewish people needed a safe haven to escape total annihilation. Indeed Zionism isn't the non plus ultra(like every other strain of nationalisn), but it's crucial in a capitalistic world, to safe the jews from anti-semitism untill capitalism, statism and other reactionary ideas are overthrown.
if you understand german, this article will help you in understanding their points.
cafecritique.priv.at/Philozionismus.html

And the anti-semitism here is really frightening.
Listen, as an Israeli who currently lives in Israel I can tell you it's total bullshit.
Not antisemitism, this is real and freightening, but the state solution to it.
Not only that Israel is probably the most anti-semitic state in the world in the way it treats ultra-orthodox jews (who have the most chances of running into anti-semitism outside of Israel) and it commits crimes against the palestinians in a way no one can justify but anti-semitism should be fought everywhere anytime, the state solution to anti-semitism is just an escape from the front of the battle against anti-semitism, it's legitimate to not be at the front but it's not something one should support as a solution, it also creates arguements such as "If you don't want people to treat you bad you can just go to Israel" and other sorts of anti-semitic justification.

Another thing worth mentioning is that Israel is only a safe place for a Jew if you are a white, heterosexual, cisgender, man, not too religious yet not completely atheist Jew.
Just like every state, it consists of the usual heirarchy, only it does not include judaism in it in the same way as everywhere.
Jews of middle-eastern (as opposed to european, like myself) origin were and still are marginalized, even the national anthem of Israel excludes them.
So no, it's not a "safe haven for Jews" like you called it, it's only a safe haven for the very non-marginalized Jews.

And to sum it all up...
Anti zionism - YES
Anti semitism - NO

If you want I'll be glad to talk about it more from my point of view as an Israeli through Email: mynameismine123 @ gmail .com

[Queen Mab]

The one thing about anti-zionism amongst the left that makes me uncomfortable is the repeated Israel = Nazi Germany analogies. I don't think it's antisemitic, but I'd find it pretty insensitive if I were a Jew. Until the Israeli state starts putting Palestinians into ovens I think the comparison is unwarranted and little more than using the holocaust as a cheap shot at zionists.

[DimSumMetal]

The one thing about anti-zionism amongst the left that makes me uncomfortable is the repeated Israel = Nazi Germany analogies. I don't think it's antisemitic, but I'd find it pretty insensitive if I were a Jew. Until the Israeli state starts putting Palestinians into ovens I think the comparison is unwarranted and little more than using the holocaust as a cheap shot at zionists.
Well, that is half-true-half-false.
The only Jews here that get offended by this comparison are those who are supporters of zionism.
It's not a "cheap shot", it's the reality of zionism, I don't want to wait until palestinians are put into ovens before we start taking it seriously, and no one is taking it seriously.
Even if not about the Palestinians, you should see how Israel treats the eritrean refugees, it's pretty much the 40's all over again.
Deportation officers flooding south Tel-Aviv, looking for refugees to deport, local people supporting the officers and cheering.
Palestinians having a completely different law system than Israelis in the West Bank (israelis are governed by the Israeli law there while palestinians are governed by an army law that is decided and made by millitary high-ranks).
The comparison is reality, and it must be stopped before it gets to the stage in which no one would be able to deny the similarity between Europe in the 40's and Israel today.

[DOOM]

Listen, as an Israeli who currently lives in Israel I can tell you it's total bullshit.
Not antisemitism, this is real and freightening, but the state solution to it.
Not only that Israel is probably the most anti-semitic state in the world in the way it treats ultra-orthodox jews (who have the most chances of running into anti-semitism outside of Israel) and it commits crimes against the palestinians in a way no one can justify but anti-semitism should be fought everywhere anytime, the state solution to anti-semitism is just an escape from the front of the battle against anti-semitism, it's legitimate to not be at the front but it's not something one should support as a solution, it also creates arguements such as "If you don't want people to treat you bad you can just go to Israel" and other sorts of anti-semitic justification.

Another thing worth mentioning is that Israel is only a safe place for a Jew if you are a white, heterosexual, cisgender, man, not too religious yet not completely atheist Jew.
Just like every state, it consists of the usual heirarchy, only it does not include judaism in it in the same way as everywhere.
Jews of middle-eastern (as opposed to european, like myself) origin were and still are marginalized, even the national anthem of Israel excludes them.
So no, it's not a "safe haven for Jews" like you called it, it's only a safe haven for the very non-marginalized Jews.

And to sum it all up...
Anti zionism - YES
Anti semitism - NO

If you want I'll be glad to talk about it more from my point of view as an Israeli through Email: mynameismine123 @ gmail .com
I perfectly understand that the current situation in Israel is shit and that unprivileged people are mistreated like everywhere. This is not something I've been arguing about. I just criticized the fact that some in the left think the destruction of the Israeli State would lead to a better middle east. But I don't see the point in this. Why should the Israeli state get destroyed?

[Sinister Intents]

The one thing about anti-zionism amongst the left that makes me uncomfortable is the repeated Israel = Nazi Germany analogies. I don't think it's antisemitic, but I'd find it pretty insensitive if I were a Jew. Until the Israeli state starts putting Palestinians into ovens I think the comparison is unwarranted and little more than using the holocaust as a cheap shot at zionists.

Certainly my ex girlfriends's father would think that the Palestinians should be brutally massacred in such a way. He thought the parallels were insulting and insensitive, but some of the extreme reactionary shit he would say made him sound like a Nazi...

[Per Levy]

Why should the Israeli state get destroyed?

because it is a bourgeois capitalist state, and just like any other bourgeois state it should be destroyed.

also let me tell you something about the anti-germans, they are shit, plain and simple, they support capitalist states, any war that is done by the usa like the afghanistan war, the iraq war, both of them and so on and so forth. they call themselfs "communists" yet support right-wing and racist politics and politicians. also anti-germans are so very german it hurts.

[DOOM]

because it is a bourgeois capitalist state, and just like any other bourgeois state it should be destroyed.

Indeed, like every other state the bourgeoise Israeli state needs to be destroyed, when time has come. But it's not just Israel that needs to be destroyed. That's the point of the Anti-germans


also let me tell you something about the anti-germans, they are shit, plain and simple, they support capitalist states, any war that is done by the usa like the afghanistan war, the iraq war, both of them and so on and so forth. they call themselfs "communists" yet support right-wing and racist politics and politicians. also anti-germans are so very german it hurts.
I also think that their movement is utter shit, since they openly supported Milosevic and other warmongers.
I just pointed out, that anti-germans believe that a state Israel is needed untill a revolution occurs. Simple as that. And I'm perfectly fine with this fact. But that doesn't mean I support them in some way.
Saying that only Israel needs to be destroyed is utter bullshit, since the Israeli state would be replaced by a maybe more horrible regime

[Bala Perdida]

The one thing about anti-zionism amongst the left that makes me uncomfortable is the repeated Israel = Nazi Germany analogies. I don't think it's antisemitic, but I'd find it pretty insensitive if I were a Jew. Until the Israeli state starts putting Palestinians into ovens I think the comparison is unwarranted and little more than using the holocaust as a cheap shot at zionists.
The way a Zionist views an Palestinian is quite horrendous. They actually believe that "Arabs only understand through force" and their policies reflect that. I mean the whole colonization of the land in the name of Israel just mirrors Hitlers living space policy. Other things like the videos in which Israeli soldiers are seen literally labeling Palestinian civilians, and truck loads of casualties due to Israeli military violence don't help differentiate them; especially with children on the receiving end. It's also important to note that while their concentration camps are not as brutal as the Nazi camps, they still exist and hold people considered ethnically different. Also the showering of the Palestinians with white phosphorus among other crimes just shows their brutality. So when you put these well known crimes together it's easy to see a reflection of the Nazis. It appears they have and keep becoming the monster they were supposedly running from when the state was declared. So, when you call a Zionist a Nazi you're basically trying to remind them of the atrocities they suffered and show them that they are being no different. They are being Nazis on a smaller scale, but Nazis nonetheless. Of course I do feel bad for any Jewish people that take offense. But just tell them the fight is against the Zionist government, not against the Jewish people. Not every Jewish person is a Zionist, just like how not every German is a Nazi.

[the debater]

Religion has probably been a huge source of conflict in the Middle East. Imagine if there had been no religion, how much easier people would get along? I've witnessed first-hand how brainwashed people can get from being religious. It ain't pretty. :(

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Religion is generally a smoke screen for the actual driving forces behind conflicts, particularly in the middle east.

[DimSumMetal]

Indeed, like every other state the bourgeoise Israeli state needs to be destroyed, when time has come. But it's not just Israel that needs to be destroyed. That's the point of the Anti-germans


I also think that their movement is utter shit, since they openly supported Milosevic and other warmongers.
I just pointed out, that anti-germans believe that a state Israel is needed untill a revolution occurs. Simple as that. And I'm perfectly fine with this fact. But that doesn't mean I support them in some way.
Saying that only Israel needs to be destroyed is utter bullshit, since the Israeli state would be replaced by a maybe more horrible regime
Well, the thing is that other states in the middle-east are far less aggressive, and I am speaking statistically, as well as from the way I see it as an Israeli.
Also, "the point of anti-germans" is not that, if that was their point they just would've criticized other states as well, or states in general, they wouldn't adore the Israeli flag the way they do.

Also, Israel is not needed until the revolution will occur, what is needed is antifascist presence everywhere so that antisemites won't ever feel safe to express this way.
I don't feel safe as a jew anywhere right now, not here, where my government is commiting war crimes and certain people want to kill me because of that, and not anywhere else, because I may run into antisemites in other places.
Did you know that jews in arabic (christian and muslim alike) states that I've spoke with are afraid to go out only when Israel bombs Gaza or does some kind of unusual bad thing (and it happens quite often), because only then they feel threatened? on other times they feel pretty okay but they've told me most of the jewish communities there are anti-zionist and yet still because of their judaism people think they support Israel and so they are afraid only when Israel does something bad.
That's how fucked up it can be when ONE SINGLE STATE WITH SPECIFIC IMPERIALIST BELIEFS claims to be representing AN ENTIRE RELIGION.
Israel is destructive to all the arab states around it, it is destructive to the Palestinians and it's destructive to jews as well.
It needs to be destroyed in favor of a one-state that will serve all of it's citizens before the revolution because the revolution is far and the injustice Israel causes is daily.

[genstrike]

Religion has probably been a huge source of conflict in the Middle East. Imagine if there had been no religion, how much easier people would get along? I've witnessed first-hand how brainwashed people can get from being religious. It ain't pretty. :(

There has been a lot of religious conflict in the past, but the problem these days in Palestine/Israel isn't so much religion as it is one of oppression. It's not that Jews and Muslims have irrational hatreds for each other because they're of different religions, it's because the Israeli state continues to colonize and practice apartheid against the Palestinian population.

[goalkeeper]

Well, that is half-true-half-false.
The only Jews here that get offended by this comparison are those who are supporters of zionism.
It's not a "cheap shot", it's the reality of zionism, I don't want to wait until palestinians are put into ovens before we start taking it seriously, and no one is taking it seriously.
Even if not about the Palestinians, you should see how Israel treats the eritrean refugees, it's pretty much the 40's all over again.
Deportation officers flooding south Tel-Aviv, looking for refugees to deport, local people supporting the officers and cheering.
Palestinians having a completely different law system than Israelis in the West Bank (israelis are governed by the Israeli law there while palestinians are governed by an army law that is decided and made by millitary high-ranks).
The comparison is reality, and it must be stopped before it gets to the stage in which no one would be able to deny the similarity between Europe in the 40's and Israel today.

as bad as that is i don't think the current practice of the israeli state is anywhere near europe 1940

[DimSumMetal]

as bad as that is i don't think the current practice of the israeli state is anywhere near europe 1940

Do you really want to wait until we will start with worse shit before taking a clear stance against Israel?
Also, in the west-bank area it's already two different law systems, one for Israelis and one for Palestinians.
DIFFERENT LAW SYSTEMS

[goalkeeper]

Do you really want to wait until we will start with worse shit before taking a clear stance against Israel?
Also, in the west-bank area it's already two different law systems, one for Israelis and one for Palestinians.
DIFFERENT LAW SYSTEMS

erm, a different law system is what you would expect from an occupation force. unless of course the territory is annexed entirely and incorporated into the state, which is also undesirable. this is nothing to do with nazism but is a general feature of military occupation (and is also why they should be opposed)

im confused by your 'wait until we will start with worse shit before taking a clear stance against Israel?' though. 1) You can take a clear stance against Israel without grossly inaccurate and hyperbolic accusations of 'being like Nazis'. 2) what do you mean by 'wait until', are you suggesting that Israel is around the corner from erecting extermination camps?

[DimSumMetal]

Actually, there already is a concentration camp, only it's for Eritrean refugees, not Palestinians, it's called Holot (it means "sands") and all the Eritrean refugees are taken there to work for a shekel for an hour, detained there until who knows what.

[goalkeeper]

Actually, there already is a concentration camp, only it's for Eritrean refugees, not Palestinians, it's called Holot (it means "sands") and all the Eritrean refugees are taken there to work for a shekel for an hour, detained there until who knows what.

There are a lot of states with pretty horrific immigrant detention camps. It's not an extermination camp.

[Sasha]

Also, when the US army was showering faludja with white-phosphorous no one was calling them nazis. When apartheid had 2 different law systems for white and black south Africa no one called them nazis... Etc etc.
The consequent equaling of Zionism and Nazism is going for the most hurtful insult as possible at best.
Not that it not can be useful to point to similarity betweenn nineteenthirties Weimar germany and Israel, holocaust survivor and anti-zionist hajo meijer wrote a good book about it but that's a lot more indept than the stupid oneliners that do boil down to "them Jews are now doing to others what they always wine about"

[DimSumMetal]

Also, when the US army was showering faludja with white-phosphorous no one was calling them nazis. When apartheid had 2 different law systems for white and black south Africa no one called them nazis... Etc etc.
The consequent equaling of Zionism and Nazism is going for the most hurtful insult as possible at best.
Not that it not can be useful to point to similarity betweenn nineteenthirties Weimar germany and Israel, holocaust survivor and anti-zionist hajo meijer wrote a good book about it but that's a lot more indept than the stupid oneliners that do boil down to "them Jews are now doing to others what they always wine about"

I am a jewish Israeli, you really want to argue with me about what's "the most hurtful insult"? the most hurtful insult that I've got was that I was called an antisemite by an antideutche (who isn't a jew anyway) because of my anti-zionist ideology.
Also, I do call the USA nazis because that's what they are, they have a black president, so what? he's useless, they (him included) are sick war criminals and should be stopped and abolished.

[Remus Bleys]

I am a jewish Israeli, you really want to argue with me about what's "the most hurtful insult"? the most hurtful insult that I've got was that I was called an antisemite by an antideutche (who isn't a jew anyway) because of my anti-zionist ideology.
Also, I do call the USA nazis because that's what they are, they have a black president, so what? he's useless, they (him included) are sick war criminals and should be stopped and abolished.
I wanted to thank this real bad but then towards the end...

I seriously hate when leftists call everything "fascist" or "nazi." What are you some stereotype of a dumb teenage punk?

[Sasha]

I am a jewish Israeli, you really want to argue with me about what's "the most hurtful insult"? the most hurtful insult that I've got was that I was called an antisemite by an antideutche (who isn't a jew anyway) because of my anti-zionist ideology.
Also, I do call the USA nazis because that's what they are, they have a black president, so what? he's useless, they (him included) are sick war criminals and should be stopped and abolished.

Im jewish too... Not Israëli though i could have been..
Calling everything fascist or Nazi you don't like is stupid, being gentile and calling only Jews you don't like nazis is beyond stupid. Sadly the left contains way to much of both catagories...

[brigadista]

Better comparison is with apartheid SA

[CrveniTalas]

The way a Zionist views an Palestinian is quite horrendous. They actually believe that "Arabs only understand through force" and their policies reflect that. I mean the whole colonization of the land in the name of Israel just mirrors Hitlers living space policy. Other things like the videos in which Israeli soldiers are seen literally labeling Palestinian civilians, and truck loads of casualties due to Israeli military violence don't help differentiate them; especially with children on the receiving end. It's also important to note that while their concentration camps are not as brutal as the Nazi camps, they still exist and hold people considered ethnically different. Also the showering of the Palestinians with white phosphorus among other crimes just shows their brutality. So when you put these well known crimes together it's easy to see a reflection of the Nazis. It appears they have and keep becoming the monster they were supposedly running from when the state was declared. So, when you call a Zionist a Nazi you're basically trying to remind them of the atrocities they suffered and show them that they are being no different. They are being Nazis on a smaller scale, but Nazis nonetheless. Of course I do feel bad for any Jewish people that take offense. But just tell them the fight is against the Zionist government, not against the Jewish people. Not every Jewish person is a Zionist, just like how not every German is a Nazi.

I think that this quote by comrade CooperationIsKey says it all. I have also read comrade DimSum's posts and it really takes bravery to publicly call out "your side" for the abuses that they commit. This is the meaning of internationalism when a person first and foremost criticizes the policies of the government of the state they live in. I live in a country where nationalism is the biggest problem for the worker's movement. Many people get sucked into the mentality of blaming the "other" side (and this usually means blaming other nationalities) for the problems and war, instead of putting the full blame where it truly belongs. Nationalism is a vicious cycle and one nationalism fuels another.

[DimSumMetal]

It's not about "jews I don't like", it's about zionists.

[Sea]

It's not about "jews I don't like", it's about zionists.Some in this thread have made it about Jewishness and/or Judaism though which is pretty disgraceful...

It essentially turns "fight zionism" into "fight the Jews" which is really just beyond words.

Yes I'm looking at you, The Debater. Conservative Christians at least where I am really fetishize Israel all over, even on of the admins here makes apologia for zionism once in a while, Islamophobes sometimes really butter up Israel, as does Mr. Obama, as did Mr. Bush, this is the shit we should fight against, no against "the jews" or as The Debater put it, "Jewish policies" which implies the same shit. And who are the Jews anyway? It's not like a conspiracy where there's an underground lair in which all the Jjews plot a list of ways how to fuck over Palestine. That's the kind of fear mongering bull shit that people implicitly push when they talk about the evils of "Jewish policy". It's just as bad as that asshole a few months back that said we should eliminate Romani culture even if it's not so blunt as that. The only difference is that The Debater dresses it up in revolutionary clothing - "exterminate" becomes "fight oppression" and "good-for-nothing gypsies" becomes "evil scary imperialists". But the emperor wears no clothes and it's easy to see right through this translucent dress-up.

[Lily Briscoe]

And the anti-semitism here is really frightening.We are not anti-semites. We simply have critical opinions of Jewish policies in Israel that have hurt the local Palestinian populations. That is all.
The fact that you referred to said policies as Jewish rather than Israeli is certainly alarming.
It's "alarming" why, exactly? I mean, 'the debater's' comment isn't exactly an example of penetrating marxist analysis, but I don't quite see why using 'Jewish' in that particular context is necessarily problematic? Do you think it is also problematic to talk about Jewish policies toward Arab Israelis? Is using the word 'Jewish' at all in relation to the ideology/policies of the state of Israel automatically "alarming"?

Anyway, discussions about Israel tend to be pretty frustrating because, before you can ever get to a place where meaningful discussion is even remotely possible, you first have to attempt to wade through this never-ending pool of shit that's been created through the combined efforts of apologists for the state of Israel (many of whom do use charges of 'antisemitism' for the purpose of silencing political criticism of Zionist nationalism/Israel, feeding into this reaction of immediate skepticism toward even valid charges of antisemitism) and anti-Zionists (many of whom do actually end up crossing a line and saying questionable things, feeding into the conflation of anti-Zionism with antisemitism), and it's pretty nearly impossible to do.

[Sea]

It's "alarming" why, exactly? I mean, 'the debater's' comment isn't exactly an example of penetrating marxist analysis, but I don't quite see why using 'Jewish' in that particular context is necessarily problematic? Do you think it is also problematic to talk about Jewish policies toward Arab Israelis? Is using the word 'Jewish' at all in relation to the ideology/policies of the state of Israel automatically "alarming"?Read the whole post. I just explained it to you. Calling it "Jewish" is fundamentally backwards because it identifies Jews and Judaism with the crimes of Israel. The State of Israel is to be treated as just that -- a capitalist state. Colonialism and imperialism are characteristics of capitalist ambitions, not characteristics of Jews, and therefore to bill Israeli policy as "Jewish policy" is absurd. Was the Rwandan genocide a Hutu policy? Was the rape of Nanking characteristic of the Japanese as a people? Was the Armenian genocide fundamentally Turkic in nature? The answers to these questions are to be derived at in the same way as one would answer the question -- "Are the crimes of Israel Jewish crimes?". An answer to any such question other than a resounding "no" indicates some bias against, and is tantamount to libel against, whatever people just so happen to form or have formed the majority of the perpetrators. In the case of Israel, it is libel against Jews. Strike one for antisemitism. Furthermore, as I said in my above post, it essentially turns "fight zionism" into "fight the Jews". The absurdity of proposing an anti-Jewish programme as the Palestinian people's key to freedom is something that follows directly from claiming that Israeli policy is Jewish policy. Strike two.

[blake 3:17]

From a very interesting opinion piece:


This is true — but only up to a point. Israel is indeed a democracy, but its status as a "Jewish state" makes it less liberal than most of the world’s democracies. To state the obvious: Liberal democratic governments normally strive for (while often falling short of complete) neutrality with regard to the ethnic and religious attachments of citizens.

Israel is different, with Judaism granted special status due to the Zionism intertwined with its founding and embedded in its legal system. That doesn’t make it evil. But it does make it less classically liberal than the United States and most other liberal-democratic nations — and that can be grounds for legitimate criticism (as opposed to criticism motivated by anti-Semitism, of which there is plenty).

When the late historian Tony Judt argued that Israel should abandon the Zionist dream of creating a distinctively Jewish state in favor of becoming a binational Jewish-Palestinian state, for example, he may have been being wildly and irresponsibly unrealistic, but he wasn’t expressing a hatred of Jews. He was denying that Israel could be both essentially Jewish and essentially liberal — and he chose to side with liberalism.

When Israel’s American defenders take a stand for Zionism, they should be equally honest about the compromises it requires. (The increasing unwillingness of young American Jews to sacrifice their liberalism for Zionism is what lies behind the trends that Peter Beinart highlights in his provocative recent writing.)

http://theweek.com/article/index/254753/yes-israel-is-a-jewish-state

[Oenomaus]

What vile nonsense. Sure, the Israeli state is horrifyingly racist, and its colonial character places it in a very special class of bourgeois states (alongside Liberia and so on). But the implication that "liberal states" like, presumably, the United States and members of the EU, are not racist, is - well, it would be hilarious were it not so misguided and if the racism of the "liberal states" didn't have such an impact on the lives of working-class people. Ask the Roma in France about French liberalism! Ask the Russians in the Baltic states - of course, let's not forget that more than half of the traitor-"socialists" cheered these states in their Kulturkampf against the evil subhuman Russians.

[Bala Perdida]

The Jewish people have suffered for a long time. In recent times they have been the victims of very harsh aggression, and this hasn't gotten any better since a state was proped up claiming to represent them as their homeland (them and only them). This has negatively made sympathy for Jewish people decrease. The Israeli state terrorizes and excercises it's tyranny over an ethnic group, while wearing the symbol of another ethnic/religious group. This puts criticism on a strict careful line. If you say Israel (as a state), Israeli (referring to the government i.e. Israeli policies), and especially Zionist then it's okay. Israel is a state (legimate or not) and thier government is Zionist, so that's simply criticism. But when you say Jew or Jewish policy or Jewish government, then your basically bashing an ethnicity and religion in a form a racism called anti-semitism. Also when we call the Zionists "fascist nazis" it sounds to me like when the right calls the Bolivarians "communist dictators". So in this case I guess the Israeli state to us is like Cuba is to them, a close match when you look at some details but not as extreme as they/we are making it seem.

[Rafiq]

Israel is one of those cases where we are assured of capitalisms contradictions. Israel is a case in which the current alternatives constrained by global capitalism simply make any solution to the problem nonexistent. In other words, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will never be solved within the parameters of the capitalist mode of production, only through Communism, only through the abandonment of the national identity and the triumph of proletarian consciousness on an international level can a solution be found. It is unlikely that on it's own Israel will experience a proletarian revolution. Israel, among others, will tail politically countries which hold the greatest amount of influence on it, namely, the United States. An American revolution would almost certainly assure an Israeli revolution.

[IBleedRed]

Israel is one of those cases where we are assured of capitalisms contradictions. Israel is a case in which the current alternatives constrained by global capitalism simply make any solution to the problem nonexistent. In other words, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will never be solved within the parameters of the capitalist mode of production, only through Communism, only through the abandonment of the national identity and the triumph of proletarian consciousness on an international level can a solution be found. It is unlikely that on it's own Israel will experience a proletarian revolution. Israel, among others, will tail politically countries which hold the greatest amount of influence on it, namely, the United States. An American revolution would almost certainly assure an Israeli revolution.

Don't underestimate the radical left in Israel. I would say there are many Israelis who have a highly-developed consciousness of the way capitalism works. In fact, it's been well known for a long time that Israelis have strong anti-capitalist sentiments despite being allies with a country that is the citadel of modern capitalism.

Now, anti-capitalism doesn't mean Marxian socialism, but it has usually manifested itself within "leftist" movements in Israel and represents serious revolutionary potential.

[keine_zukunft]

In a purely German context it sort of can be and if you ask most people who do fly an israel flag at antifa demos like r.a.f flags too it's really done as a provocation to the nazis that they infact didn't exterminate the jews. However i personally wouldn't do it myself i will stick to my red flag. As for the anti-germans i think you will find most do not support actions of the state and do have a boner for the idf but do think that in principle a jewish state existing is a good thing. those sorts of hardliners who uncritically support Israel are a thing of the past and plus hardliners wouldn't go on a demo nor would they associate with antifa either.