breaking bad final episodes (definite spoilers, stay away etc)

[bcbm]

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuck

this show is going to give me a heart attack.

are you rooting for the nazis or the cops?
will flynn inherit his fathers empire?
what is the deal with todd?
how dead is hank?

discuss.

[helot]

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuck


Is pretty much my response after watching sunday's episode.

[Tim Cornelis]

I was thinking, with US gun laws, would firing at 'cops' refusing to identify themselves be right of you see one of your buds locked up? Could they legally argue they thought they were protecting their friend thinking he was being abducted?

Also them nazis are terrible at aiming, two targets, five shooters, short distance, no hits.

[bcbm]

I was thinking, with US gun laws, would firing at 'cops' refusing to identify themselves be right of you see one of your buds locked up? Could they legally argue they thought they were protecting their friend thinking he was being abducted?

they did identify themselves though, i am pretty sure they don't have to actually show a badge in this situation. that said in some of the more trigger happy states, probably.


Also them nazis are terrible at aiming, two targets, five shooters, short distance, no hits.

yeah that was my thought too. and with an automatic shotgun? there were bullets whizzing by where walt was in the car, which was like 10 feet away at the start of the shootout.

[Chop_Sugar_Cane_Dem]

garbage thread :glare:

[bcbm]

make it better or shut up

[Le Socialiste]

I'm rooting for Walt.

What does that say about me?

[Klaatu]

About the last show's cliff-hanger:

If Hank had just showed his badge, I think the gangsters would have backed off.
But since he did not show it, they might think he is from a rival gang ? (They don't know he is D.E.A. --- or am I wrong?)

[Le Socialiste]

About the last show's cliff-hanger:

If Hank had just showed his badge, I think the gangsters would have backed off.
But since he did not show it, they might think he is from a rival gang ? (They don't know he is D.E.A.)

I'm not sure I believe that. I think they would've fired anyway.

I just don't see them backing off over that, I guess. I mean, they orchestrated a mass murder spree in multiple prisons over the course of 2 minutes! Something tells me they're not afraid of putting a couple D.E.A. agents in the ground (or in a barrel).

[Klaatu]

I'm not sure I believe that. I think they would've fired anyway.

I just don't see them backing off over that, I guess. I mean, they orchestrated a mass murder spree in multiple prisons over the course of 2 minutes! Something tells me they're not afraid of putting a couple D.E.A. agents in the ground (or in a barrel).

That could be. After all, Hank (stupidly) never told his superiors that he knows who "Heisenberg" is.
So if he gets killed, no one will figure out who-done-it.

I especially like the scene in the previous episode where Walt was waiting for Jesse to show up to talk, and Jesse sees what he thinks is a hit-man or something Walt had hired--- turns out the guy (who looks like a gangster) was just waiting for his little daughter...had nothing to do with Walt at all.

Classic! This is what makes up a great story... and this story is full of irony and suspense... kudos to the writers and to Vince Gilligan!

[bcbm]

I'm rooting for Walt.

What does that say about me?

i am not really sure who i am rooting for, i go back and forth. like walt is kind of a piece of shit but i think his sheer audacity and ability to go from lowly high school loser to meth kingpin in one year is pretty awesome and would hate to see some pig with an attitude bring it all down. jesse was always kind of the moral compass but also has a hard time taking responsibility for his actions and uh is a snitch now so.

i agree the nazis would've opened up even if they were dea, i figured the 'show us your badges' thing was to make them lower their guns/attention for a moment which they would use to open fire.


So if he gets killed, no one will figure out who-done-it.

marie still knows and walt getting her husband killed would be some hella incentive, if she needed any more.

[Klaatu]

It is also unclear why Walt lost his cool and panicked and fell for Jesse's ruse to lead him to the buried money. Shows that emotion can over-run reason and logic sometimes!

[bcbm]

It is also unclear why Walt lost his cool and panicked and fell for Jesse's ruse to lead him to the buried money. Shows that emotion can over-run reason and logic sometimes!

cuz the only thing he has to show for all of it is the money, it is the proof of his greatness (and for his children, whatever, youre the only one who knows where it is what if you die suddenly?)

[Taters]

Okay, that shootout bugged the hell out of me. Dude opens up with an automatic shotgun from 10 feet away, hank and gomez should be dead before they hit the ground. There's no "OOP sidestep! wow that buckshot almost got me" from 10 feet away.

also who's he going to use the m60 on? the nazis?

[Il Medico]

Last Episode's ending in a nutshell.
http://i.imgur.com/YkhV4fZ.gif

(Seriously, how do start a fire fight that close with shotguns and automatics and not hit a single goddamn person?)


Also, the Nazis' aim seems to have diminished since they killed discount Hugh Jackman.



Anyways, who am I rooting for? Well for Jesse to get the fuck out of there and in the case of stray bullets vs Walt's face, I gotta go with bullets. http://imgur.com/YkhV4fZ

[bcbm]

well we already know walt lives for sure, so that narrows down the 'who is gonna die' list. my vote is on hank and gomez.

the aiming thing sucked but you know 'dramatic tension' etc. though i honestly thought it was gonna cut right after the nazi opened up

[Il Medico]

well we already know walt lives for sure, so that narrows down the 'who is gonna die' list. my vote is on hank and gomez.
Yeah, I can still dream though. Anyways, best case scenario is Hank and Gomez dying but taking most of the nazis with them (like all of them except Jack and Todd).

(Side note: Is Todd a nazi as well? I don't think that's been made clear.)



the aiming thing sucked but you know 'dramatic tension' etc. though i honestly thought it was gonna cut right after the nazi opened up
That probably would have been better, honestly.

[bcbm]

Yeah, I can still dream though. Anyways, best case scenario is Hank and Gomez dying but taking most of the nazis with them (like all of them except Jack and Todd).

yeah i feel like they have already stretched the shootout to a breaking point though, like it can't get more absurd. they are seriously outgunned and fucked. but its breaking bad so anything could happen! but seriously someone important has to die here


(Side note: Is Todd a nazi as well? I don't think that's been made clear.)

yeah its not really clear. they are just 'his uncles' but they trust him to roll with the crew and i can't imagine aryan brotherhood types letting non-members hang around and commit crimes with them, even if they are family.


That probably would have been better, honestly.

yeah i was disappointed a little

[Le Socialiste]

In somewhat related news, AMC has signed on for a Breaking Bad spinoff featuring Saul Goodman (as a prequel of sorts):


AMC has signed up for a Breaking Bad spinoff.

Better Call Saul, in discussions for months, will be a one-hour "prequel" to the acclaimed drama that will "focus on the evolution of the popular Saul Goodman character before he ever became Walter White's lawyer," the network said in a joint statement with Sony Pictures Television. The show's title is the cheesy attorney's ad slogan.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2013/09/11/breaking-bad-spinoff-saul-goodman/2801281/

Thoughts?

[Klaatu]

(Side note: Is Todd a nazi as well? I don't think that's been made clear.)


Recall that he gunned down that little boy on his bike when they were stealing the chemicals from the train tanker car?

Nazi? I think so.


In somewhat related news, AMC has signed on for a Breaking Bad spinoff featuring Saul Goodman (as a prequel of sorts):
Thoughts?

I'm anxious to see that. Should be good.

[bcbm]

i am skeptical of spin-offs and the like but bob odenkirk is pretty damn funny so it has a chance. no huell though, so that sucks

[Rafiq]

Gus was actually somewhat of a reasonable guy compared to the rest of the lot in that show.

[Il Medico]

Recall that he gunned down that little boy on his bike when they were stealing the chemicals from the train tanker car?

Nazi? I think so.

Not seeing how that makes him a nazi. Just a giant douche muffin. His uncles are straight up Aryan Brotherhood. That's why their nazis, not because they're dicks (Hell besides being white supremacist scum, they haven't done much douchebaggery at all, unless you really love discount hugh jackman, Mike's guys in prison, or Hank.)

[synthesis]

If anyone here has seen the South Park where Cartman freezes himself because he can't wait for the Wii to come out, that's pretty much how I feel about this coming Sunday's episode.


About the last show's cliff-hanger:

If Hank had just showed his badge, I think the gangsters would have backed off.
But since he did not show it, they might think he is from a rival gang ? (They don't know he is D.E.A. --- or am I wrong?)

I could be wrong, but I thought it was pretty obvious that they were trying to get Hank and Gomez to put down their guns (i.e., one hand off the gun and distracted) so they could fuck their shit up.


i am skeptical of spin-offs and the like but bob odenkirk is pretty damn funny so it has a chance. no huell though, so that sucks

Where are you getting the "no Huell" thing from? Even if he dies, I'm reading that it will probably be a prequel.

--

I might catch some flack for this, but I think the portrayal of Todd's family is a really good reflection of this idea I kind of came to in jail, which is basically that a lot of Aryan Brotherhood types are really just white gangsters who use Nazi imagery to try to intimidate people and to show their affiliation; it really has very little to do with political ideology, any more so than other gangsters, a population that has historically been very racially segregated. (Now you're seeing gangs like Avenue Oxford Boys who are very, let's say "integrated," so to speak. See here (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=aob) and go to #3.) Contrast this analysis with the sort of neo-Nazis you see in American History X.

The Aryan Brotherhood in California has been completely affiliated and allied with La Eme (Mexican Mafia) for a long time, for example; I just found this article (http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/04/white-supremacists-think-aryan-brotherhood-gang-race-traitors/63901/) which is a good illustration of this point, and notes that the Stormfront types also see the white prison gangs as motivated primarily by money and a part of the prison protection system, instead of by ideology. Just like most of the guys with those white power tattoos I came across in jail, Todd's family doesn't seem to actually be concerned with race at all, mostly just with the usual organized crime shit - correct me if I've missed something. Without exception, the white guys without those tattoos were always the ones making the shitty racist jokes.

(I really hope nobody takes this as a defense of the Aryan Brotherhood, et al; they're still racist assholes. I just think most people have them wrong in that, by and large, they're not that much different from Bloods or the Nortenos or any other segregated prison gang. Ideology is completely secondary to moving drugs and really just getting by in prison. I just noticed that in jail, it seemed like the white regulars kind of just assumed I was going to be a part of their group, I guess, and me trying to make conversation with black inmates was both looked down upon by the white regulars and just generally rejected by those inmates - a rule with many exceptions - but all that seemed opposite to how people from Latin backgrounds seemed to be perceived. I'm by no means an expert on this stuff, just rambling about what I saw.)

[bcbm]

Where are you getting the "no Huell" thing from? Even if he dies, I'm reading that it will probably be a prequel.

huell was hired during the course of the show

--


I might catch some flack for this, but I think the portrayal of Todd's family is a really good reflection of this idea I kind of came to in jail, which is basically that a lot of Aryan Brotherhood types are really just white gangsters who use Nazi imagery to try to intimidate people and to show their affiliation; it really has very little to do with political ideology, any more so than other gangsters, a population that has historically been very racially segregated. (Now you're seeing gangs like Avenue Oxford Boys who are very, let's say "integrated," so to speak. See here (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=aob) and go to #3.) Contrast this analysis with the sort of neo-Nazis you see in American History X.

The Aryan Brotherhood in California has been completely affiliated and allied with La Eme (Mexican Mafia) for a long time, for example; I just found this article (http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/04/white-supremacists-think-aryan-brotherhood-gang-race-traitors/63901/) which is a good illustration of this point, and notes that the Stormfront types also see the white prison gangs as motivated primarily by money and a part of the prison protection system, instead of by ideology. Just like most of the guys with those white power tattoos I came across in jail, Todd's family doesn't seem to actually be concerned with race at all, mostly just with the usual organized crime shit - correct me if I've missed something. Without exception, the white guys without those tattoos were always the ones making the shitty racist jokes.

(I really hope nobody takes this as a defense of the Aryan Brotherhood, et al; they're still racist assholes. I just think most people have them wrong in that, by and large, they're not that much different from Bloods or the Nortenos or any other segregated prison gang. Ideology is completely secondary to moving drugs and really just getting by in prison. I just noticed that in jail, it seemed like the white regulars kind of just assumed I was going to be a part of their group, I guess, and me trying to make conversation with black inmates was both looked down upon by the white regulars and just generally rejected by those inmates - a rule with many exceptions - but all that seemed opposite to how people from Latin backgrounds seemed to be perceived. I'm by no means an expert on this stuff, just rambling about what I saw.)



this is all pretty much spot on, as i understand things with the ab and prison

[synthesis]

huell was hired during the course of the show

Fuck, you're right. I really thought he'd been around since the beginning.

Also, I don't mean to go OT, but just a side note I think is interesting about the Aryan Brotherhood/Mexican Mafia thing: La Eme is well-known for having had a white American guy as a "godfather," who's sometimes described as being the most powerful guy in the organization (Joe Morgan (http://jumpingpolarbear.com/2013/01/04/joe-morgan-the-croatian-godfather-of-the-mexican-mafia/), who sued the American Me people for basing a character on him) and it was this guy who forged the alliance between the AB and La Eme - it supposedly started by the latter using the former to take care of rats and rivals - and he apparently pretty much set up the entire entente by himself.

[Klaatu]

A question, when and why did Walt poison the little boy, Barack? (Was this by accident?)

[synthesis]

It was when he was trying to convince Jesse to go along with his plan to kill Gus. Remember the very last scene of season 4, when the camera zoomed in on the "Lily of the Valley" plant in Walt's backyard, which was earlier revealed to be the substance that Brock was poisoned with?

[Creative Destruction]

About the last show's cliff-hanger:

If Hank had just showed his badge, I think the gangsters would have backed off.
But since he did not show it, they might think he is from a rival gang ? (They don't know he is D.E.A. --- or am I wrong?)

Nah, I think if Hank and Gomez went for their badges, it would've really left them open to some serious danger. More so than they're in right now.

I think Gomez is definitely going to die. Not sure about Hank.

[Le Socialiste]

It was when he was trying to convince Jesse to go along with his plan to kill Gus. Remember the very last scene of season 4, when the camera zoomed in on the "Lily of the Valley" plant in Walt's backyard, which was earlier revealed to be the substance that Brock was poisoned with?

Yeah, it was all a way of getting Jesse back on Walt's side. My question is how Walt managed the whole 'operation'. We know Brock seems wary or scared of Walt whenever he's around him, too. Maybe he suspects? I don't know, doesn't really matter now, does it?

[Klaatu]

It was when he was trying to convince Jesse to go along with his plan to kill Gus. Remember the very last scene of season 4, when the camera zoomed in on the "Lily of the Valley" plant in Walt's backyard, which was earlier revealed to be the substance that Brock was poisoned with?

thanks... I will have to re-watch that part (I thought I had a better understanding of the story) it is a complex plot, isn't it.

did you know that Gale the chemist is now on the new AMC series, Low Winter Sun? (he is the internal-affairs guy) AMC is recycling their actors.

[synthesis]

Yeah, it was all a way of getting Jesse back on Walt's side. My question is how Walt managed the whole 'operation'. We know Brock seems wary or scared of Walt whenever he's around him, too. Maybe he suspects? I don't know, doesn't really matter now, does it?

Well, I'd assume that Brock is apprehensive towards Walt because he saw him shortly before he was poisoned. They couldn't show how Walt pulled it off because that was the only way the writers could pull off that plot twist at the end, which I think is one of the most incredibly executed plot twists in the history of serialized television, possibly even in the broader category of filmed media which includes cinema.

I'd agree that it doesn't really matter at this point - I think it's pretty easy to think of a way that Walt could have done it, and I'm wondering now if there wasn't a scene earlier in Season 4 which implies he's about to do it or has done it once you know the twist.

[La Comédie Noire]

I read somewhere that they confirmed at Comicon that Walt crushed up the plant in Brock's juice box? This happening off screen.

Anyways, I can't wait for the next episode. Hopefully Hank and Gomez die. I really care for the characters and all, but it would just make me feel cheated if they didn't die.

The whole show revolves around Walter's decisions and how he is unable to control the consequences. Him watching his brother in law get gunned down by gang members he called while handcuffed would be the ultimate expression of this theme.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

the only thing that's ever made me sympathize with a cop, bravo. although in the end, everyone's guilty of something and that'll be the legacy of breaking bad, following in the tradition of the sopranos which makes us root for bad people until the end when we want to see them get their comeuppance.

such good writing, can't imagine how they're gonna end it but i'm looking forward to it.

[Le Socialiste]

Holy shit. Fuck. Just...Fuck.

[Klaatu]

Holy Shit is right... I love this TV series, but it is getting really depressing, really fast :crying:

[Le Socialiste]

Kinda funny watching all the reviews coming in that are misunderstanding Walt's last phone call with Skyler...:rolleyes:

[La Comédie Noire]

So sad. I know it had to be done, but still.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I watched tonight's episode and I now feel like a douche because it's the only episode I've ever seen.

[synthesis]

Kinda funny watching all the reviews coming in that are misunderstanding Walt's last phone call with Skyler...:rolleyes:

You mean they think he was actually shit-talking her, as opposed to giving them a trace so they could find the baby?

[bcbm]

You mean they think he was actually shit-talking her, as opposed to giving them a trace so they could find the baby?

and taking the entire blame for everything and making it seem like she was a helpless victim rather than an accomplice.

i was surprised by walt ratting jesse out like that. and then telling him about jane... fuckin hell dude, haven't you done enough to the kid?

[Fakeblock]

That episode was so intense I can't describe it.

[synthesis]

i was surprised by walt ratting jesse out like that. and then telling him about jane... fuckin hell dude, haven't you done enough to the kid?

I think there's a very concrete difference between the ways in which they ratted each other out. Jesse was still an immediate threat to his family in terms of the activities he could testify to. And it seemed like Walt just wanted to get that off his chest. Walt getting into the Jesse assassination thing was a total last resort. And I don't think he was a complete sociopath about Jane, he obviously felt conflicted about it but she was about to completely fuck him over with Jesse on some Yoko Ono shit. (Not hating on Yoko Ono, it's just shorthand.)

[Klaatu]

You mean they think he was actually shit-talking her, as opposed to giving them a trace so they could find the baby?

He is probably trying to make the police think that Skyler is not involved in his crimes (but doesn't Marie know?)

[Creative Destruction]

a lot of people are predicting that walt is going to rescue jesse from the neo-nazis. i don't think so. i think he's going to waste the neo-nazis and jesse. he feels betrayed and no matter how long he's away from the identity switching, he's still going to blame jesse for hank's death.

[Il Medico]

Man, never thought I'd say this, but thank god for Todd. Dude was smart enough to realize Walt was never gonna help him cook after Walt's reaction to Hank's death. That's why he saved Jesse. Sure, it sucks Jesse is enslaved to a bunch of nazis, but at least he might make it out alive.

Also, I totally called Walt spilling the beans on his role in Jane's death. Not how I thought it would happen though. I had figured it being more of a Freudian slip in an argument with Jesse than one last spiteful dick move. Way to kick a kid while he's down Walt.

And that last phone call with Skyler and his pleading for Hank's life almost made me sympathize with Walt again (almost, he killed it with his dicking over of Jesse). He obviously cares about his family over everything else, willing to give up all the fruits of his empire for Hank and willing to make his family hate him to protect Skyler.

[bcbm]

I think there's a very concrete difference between the ways in which they ratted each other out.

i wasnt saying they were comparable, i just thought after getting hank wasted he might spare jesse. but he probably blames jesse for it somehow


That's why he saved Jesse. Sure, it sucks Jesse is enslaved to a bunch of nazis, but at least he might make it out alive.

i figure thats where this business with the m60 and the ricin is going.

[Il Medico]

i figure thats where this business with the m60 and the ricin is going.
The M60 is probably for the nazis and I imagine the ricin is either for himself or Jesse. If a year from now he still blames Jesse for Hank's death, I could see Walt wanting Jesse to suffer more and have a drawn out death. Hopefully if this is the case this will allow Jesse to kill Walt. Because honestly if Jesse dies and doesn't get to kill Walt I'm gonna be kinda pissed.

[Tim Cornelis]

He is probably trying to make the police think that Skyler is not involved in his crimes (but doesn't Marie know?)

Marie can't prove shit.

[brigadista]

just up to the end of series 3 - i am finding this racist tbh - not sure i can continue - im not trolling just wondered if anyone else noticed it?

[La Comédie Noire]

just up to the end of series 3 - i am finding this racist tbh

Right? Still a good show. You just have to put up with a lot of Hispanic/ Latin stereotypes.

Also. Does everyone here like Walter White? Because I fucking hate him.

[Rss]

Right? Still a good show. You just have to put up with a lot of Hispanic/ Latin stereotypes.

Also. Does everyone here like Walter White? Because I fucking hate him.

Walt is a contemptible villain, but that scene with Walt embracing Holly and taking the blame on himself alone on phone with Skylar... He's still human.

I really hope Jesse survives all this, but it doesn't look good.

[The Feral Underclass]

Walter White is awesome and I hope he wins everything. I hope Jesse dies and Walt turns into the new Fring.

WALTER WHITE SMASH!

[Creative Destruction]

I'm not so sure that the Hispanic characters in the show are Hispanic stereotypes. They're characters based off of people involved in the drug trade, which, in Arizona and all along the border states, if you're in the meth trade in some substantial way (I'm saying beyond the cooking-meth-in-the-trailer-park) then you're either involved -- in some way -- with extremely violent Mexican gangs or with the extremely violent Aryan Brotherhood. That's just a fact. I guess a good criticism that could be made is that the show doesn't explore the amount of strife that Mexican families go through with respect to the drug trade, but that would basically figure into a larger criticism of television that can be made -- that it's primarily white.

Aside from all that, the existence of Walt's character on the show makes a very poignant argument about patriarchy and male pride, and how destructive both things really are even in a traditional, patriarchal, nuclear family setting.

[brigadista]

well i would be interested to see a Mexican viewpoint - but what about Hugo the cleaner at the school? and are there no Mexican pupils?

Why not see any more about Carmen? She the head of the school and a Mexican woman - just seems to be a plot device


Hank's co worker is like Tonto to the lone ranger and mexican women are invisible - i think the Santa Muerte scene was terrible and those twins -

just troubles me that a whole lot of the population are voiceless in this series - a lot of the mexican characters are completely one dimensional - cartel members or associates or not - exception La Tartuga but then he is "slow" so im not sure-

i also am not liking the portrayal of every woman as a manipulative fool - and Walters son - why?

i dont know anything about any of this - I am not american - but im thinking twice about continuing here....

the only character i like so far is Jesse - very good actor there and a complex character -

[Il Medico]

the only character i like so far is Jesse - very good actor there and a complex character -
Jesse, Gale, and maybe Gus (depends how much you love good villains) are the only characters you're ever going to like.

[Creative Destruction]

Well, again, that's a function of the racist nature of television in general, not specifically with this show. A lot of it comes from the main characters in the show being white, so it's going to be about white people's problems.

I have to disagree with the "one-dimension" argument of the Mexican cartel members. That same criticism can be applied to the other supporting cast of non-Hispanic characters. Tuco was shown as a complicated character, and so was Gus Fring, whereas Ted was pretty damn one-dimensional and so is, frankly, Saul. Perhaps the reason that their stories weren't developed is because the way the story evolved necessitated killing them off.

I also don't know what you mean by the "portrayal of every woman as a manipulative fool." Skyler has been a strong moral center for the show up until recently. I think she lost that center over the last season, and it kind of shifted to Jesse, but got it back with this last episode. The show actually fully acknowledged the abuse she's been put through. With Marie, she was never really manipulative except with the shoplifting arc that lasted extremely briefly. She did superbly dealing with Hank's shit when he got shot by the brothers.

I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to defend the show from every single accusation and criticism, but I guess I am. This show has been pretty good, for the most part, of sticking with the realities of the drug trade and also offers some very good, if a little subtle, critiques of power relationships, especially ones within a marriage. I happen to think that a lot of these criticisms are audience bias. For example, your view that the women characters are manipulative fools is the same reason that they have a whole bunch of sexist shit hurled at them (and the actresses themselves,too) by the audience, even though if you actually sit down and look at them as characters, they're extremely complex ones.

I've noticed a lot of people (especially women, to my surprise) will say that they don't feel sorry for Skyler, because she hasn't left the relationship with Walt. And they pretty much echo a lot of shaming that is hurled at other abuse victims, particularly those who go back to their abusers. They don't understand how much that abuse actually works on the psyche. In the show, it's horrible for Skyler because she really doesn't know whether Walt will actually kill her if she leaves with the children.

[brigadista]

im only three quarters of the way through series 3 - I take your points and it occurs to me that maybe this show just reflects what it is like for Mexicans [ ordinary Mexicans are treated as invisible people?] in the USA border states - but I dont know - Im in the UK


However, given the length of the series character development could have been better - it was on the wire -

I dont find the women characters complex at all - mainly foils for male action and my dislike of Skylar in particular - is not due to her not leaving walter - its her manipulation of all her family members including her children,

but then maybe we are supposed to get a view of her through Walter's eyes, which would not be sympathetic

Thanks for the reply Rednoise - i will try to watch on after reading your posts but i am finding the Mexican portrayals are really irritating me -

tbh im only watching right now due to Giancarlo Esposito,[great actor] who has just appeared as Gustavo [interestingly not Mexican] who looks interesting and because i want to see what happens to Jesse-

[Creative Destruction]

im only three quarters of the way through series 3 - I take your points and it occurs to me that maybe this show just reflects what it is like for Mexicans [ ordinary Mexicans are treated as invisible people?] in the USA border states - but I dont know - Im in the UK

Unfortunate as that is, that is true. Americans -- white Americans, really -- are only concerned if it affects them. In Arizona, for example, there are tons of white folks there who make a point to marginalize anyone with brown skin. Maricopa County is basically a white people's country club, with some Mexicans and Natives there to serve them and their economy.

White folks also only complain about what happens in Mexico (even though a lot of what is happening there is due to Americans) when they can score political points. A good example of that is when conservatives crowed about the gun running program the CIA had. Only then where they concerned about those guns getting into the hands of gangs, even though they are the same people who cry and moan when things like straw purchases are actually made illegal. That's all that matters to them. Not the thousands slaughtered in Mexico.


I dont find the women characters complex at all - mainly foils for male action and my dislike of Skylar in particular - is not due to her not leaving walter - its her manipulation of all her family members including her children,

but then maybe we are supposed to get a view of her through Walter's eyes, which would not be sympathetic

See, though, that's kind of the issue. I don't know if you're male or not, but a lot of male audience members identify with Walt. There are some very key words and motives he uses: pride, power, needing to be the sole provider of the family, etc. etc. These are all things that are pounded into men by a patriarchal society. Even radical groups exhibit it, like the Black Panthers in the early days before the women Panthers started getting into ranks of power. It is an infection, so it's going to get the primarily male audience riveted. It's even gotten to me. I hope I'm not spoiling anything, but when Skyler looked Walt straight in the eyes and said "I fucked Ted." that made my stomach churn. If my wife had ever said that to me, I'd probably get the exact same feeling. Just total and complete horribleness. It felt like she said that to me. But that's the power of it. Even though we are privy to the abuse that Skyler has been put through at the hands of Walt, that one line still hurt -- and I know a lot of guys who felt the same way. I think the proper response should have been, "Fuck yeah, Skyler. Get that fucking asshole back." But that's a function of patriarchy. Because of it, you're identifying with the man's pain rather than the immense amount of pain that the man brought down on her.

The problem is that they're focusing on those things first and not actually focusing on what Walt is actually doing (which is kind of the downside of also cutting out the victims of the meth war): he's manufacturing a highly addictive, deadly drug that kills mainly working class people, and, on top of that, he's murdering people who get in his way. Skyler is acting as a moral "foil". She's telling him that he can't fucking do that and what the fuck is wrong with him? That's a perfectly natural and appropriate response.

But yeah, I think it's mainly the audience's fault that they think Skyler is relegated as a background foil. She's a very important moral character, and that Walt turns away from her (under the guise of needing to support her and the kids) shows his turn away from any moral rock in the show. Hence, "Breaking Bad."

This show is great for it's "Borat" effect, I think. It gives a credible (anti?)hero for men to latch onto and not critically analyze, except at a few points. Setting that stage, people kind of let their horrible feelings and ideas about the characters and the situations flow. In Western society, where patriarchal family lines are still very concrete, the show is something of a jewel. It's very informing to me.


Thanks for the reply Rednoise - i will try to watch on after reading your posts but i am finding the Mexican portrayals are really irritating me -

tbh im only watching right now due to Giancarlo Esposito,[great actor] who has just appeared as Gustavo [interestingly not Mexican] who looks interesting and because i want to see what happens to Jesse-

I look forward to how you feel about the rest of the show. If nothing else, it's just really gripping drama.

[brigadista]

thanks Rednoise - will watch on and get back to you - may need a few anger breaks lol:):)

[Fat Red Pecker]

I hope Jesse dies

Why? For cooperating with the DEA? You realize Jesse honestly thought Walt poisoned Brock or whatever that little kid's name was, and he manipulated Jesse into killing Gayle.

"Mr. White is the devil."

[Tim Cornelis]

Why? For cooperating with the DEA? You realize Jesse honestly thought Walt poisoned Brock or whatever that little kid's name was, and he manipulated Jesse into killing Gayle.

"Mr. White is the devil."

You saying he didn't poison Brock?

[ВАЛТЕР]

I really don't like Jesse now that he is a total rat. He ruined everything. He is partially to blame for Hanks death as well. Considering that Hank had nothing on Walt up until Jesse volunteered to be a snitch. However, I still think that Walt is going to come and save his ass from the Nazis and give him some cash.

On a side note: Todd is the most dangerous motherfucker on that show. He is stone cold, and is pretty much ready for anything.

[Creative Destruction]

I really don't like Jesse now that he is a total rat. He ruined everything. He is partially to blame for Hanks death as well.

lol, jesus christ. Jesse ruined a meth empire -- "everything." I would give him a goddamn medal for doing that.

And he's not to blame for Hank's death at all. If Walt had never contracted a hit on Jesse, Hank would still be alive. So there.

[synthesis]

But Walt tried to call the hit off. He literally did everything he could to stop Hank from being killed - even offering the AB all the money that brought him there in the first place, out of fear of losing it. Jesse wasn't trying to bring down a meth empire - how could he? Walt was retired - he just really, really hated Walt. Not a noble act, if you ask me.



On a side note: Todd is the most dangerous motherfucker on that show. He is stone cold, and is pretty much ready for anything.

Yeah, and the fact that he's so damn nice and seemingly not a sociopath at all (with the obvious exception of when he's shooting little kids in the face) makes him so much more of an interesting character.

[Tim Cornelis]

Todd, discount Matt Damon.

(who's discount Hugh Jackman?)

[Ocean Seal]

Todd, discount Matt Damon.

(who's discount Hugh Jackman?)
The meth dealer that looks like Wolverine.

[Il Medico]

(who's discount Hugh Jackman?)
Delcan.

[Creative Destruction]

But Walt tried to call the hit off. He literally did everything he could to stop Hank from being killed - even offering the AB all the money that brought him there in the first place, out of fear of losing it.

This doesn't matter. He called for the hit in the first place. That's the one act that kicked this all off. Jesse can't be held responsible for Walt's shitty cell phone service. That's absurd.


Jesse wasn't trying to bring down a meth empire - how could he? Walt was retired - he just really, really hated Walt. Not a noble act, if you ask me.

I really really hate Walt. He's a murderer, meth cooker (who knows how many folks his "blue candy" shit killed and how many communities he's further degraded?) and a child and spousal abuser and up until this last episode, he was seemingly not afflicted with any shame or guilt over any of this. I feel absolutely nothing for him other than this: if he doesn't get his comeuppance, then the conclusion of this show is not going to be satisfying in the least.

Jesse did all that, too (except for the spousal abuse) but most of the show has basically been about the guilt of it all tearing him up. After giving it all up to Hank, he's now in the hands of the neo-Nazis and apparently under threat that the only people he values in this world will be killed if he doesn't comply. Skylar just gave Walt what he deserved.

So, no. If there is a "good" guy in all of this, Jesse is it. That's not saying much, but he's not Walter White and that is saying a lot.

ETA. I'd also consider the possible ruination of his reputation and his money being confiscated as a downfall of an empire. At the very least, Jesse has destroyed Walt's dubious legacy and that is a very good thing.

[synthesis]

I thought Walt actually did call it off, but they came anyways, because they wanted him to cook for them one more time to teach Todd; I could be remembering incorrectly. And he called for the hit as a last resort, after doing literally everything else he could do in order to avoid killing Jesse, and didn't even want to do it even after finding out that Jesse was going to burn down his house. Skylar had to really talk him into it. He obviously saw Jesse as a second son up until the point where his actual family was at risk because of him.

[Creative Destruction]

I'm not sure anymore. You may be right, but even in that scenario, it isn't Jesse's fault. I also really question how much he actually saw Jesse as a son and rather than just another person he could exert control over. Once the emotional manipulation stopped being useful, that's when Jesse was out-of-control and needed to be done away with. Regardless of what Skylar told Walt, he arrived to that decision on his own.

Control has been his entire MO since he told Jesse that they're in the "empire" business. At one point, he may have seen Jesse as somewhat of a son-figure, but all that vanished, for me anyway, the second he told Jesse that. Mike and Jesse had far more the father/son relationship than Walt and Jesse. Mike actually made Jesse somewhat of his protege and treated him with respect.

[bcbm]

Jesse, Gale, and maybe Gus (depends how much you love good villains) are the only characters you're ever going to like.

i love me some mike. and huell and kuby are a fun team

[synthesis]

I was looking back on this thread and wanted to respond to this:


The problem is that they're focusing on those things first and not actually focusing on what Walt is actually doing (which is kind of the downside of also cutting out the victims of the meth war): he's manufacturing a highly addictive, deadly drug that kills mainly working class people, and, on top of that, he's murdering people who get in his way

Well, there are a lot of shows that do that and everyone knows they're generally preachy as fuck; it's really hard to pull off something like The Wire that carries a message without turning people off by being too pedagogical.

I really think part of the appeal of a show like Breaking Bad (or The Sopranos, or Dexter, or Boardwalk Empire, or Game of Thrones) is that it has no pretensions towards any sort of social agenda, at least on its face. You don't feel like anyone's trying to convince you of anything. It's sort of like the appeal of Seinfeld, now that I think about it, but with a veneer of Hobbesianism.

[Il Medico]

i love me some mike. and huell and kuby are a fun team
Oh god. I forgot about Mike. :crying: Just another reason I fucking hate Walt. Seriously, if he doesn't join Mike in 'Belize' I'm gonna be pretty pissed.

Also, Huell and Kuby are cool, but I can't really say I'd care to terrible if they didn't make it.

I also totally forgot about Saul. I freaking love Saul.

Basically, what I'm saying is my last post was rubbish.

[Il Medico]

However, given the length of the series character development could have been better - it was on the wire -
I don't really think that's a fair comparison. The Wire and Breaking Bad are structured wholly differently and tell their stories in very different ways. That's not to say I even agree that Breaking Bad does a bad job at character development anyways. You also gotta remember that up until literally the episode that aired Sunday, it's only been a year since Walt first was diagnosed with cancer and started cooking. You wouldn't really expect people to change all too much in that time frame except under crazy circumstances, which is why Walt and Jesse are the most developed and changed since their introduction. They've been at the center of all the crazy shit that has gone down.




tbh im only watching right now due to Giancarlo Esposito,[great actor] who has just appeared as Gustavo [interestingly not Mexican] who looks interesting and because i want to see what happens to Jesse-
Yeah, Gus is awesome. He is South American btw, if they haven't mentioned it in the show yet. Also, Gale is coming up and you gotta love Gale.

[Creative Destruction]

I was looking back on this thread and wanted to respond to this:



Well, there are a lot of shows that do that and everyone knows they're generally preachy as fuck; it's really hard to pull off something like The Wire that carries a message without turning people off by being too pedagogical.

I really think part of the appeal of a show like Breaking Bad (or The Sopranos, or Dexter, or Boardwalk Empire, or Game of Thrones) is that it has no pretensions towards any sort of social agenda, at least on its face. You don't feel like anyone's trying to convince you of anything. It's sort of like the appeal of Seinfeld, now that I think about it, but with a veneer of Hobbesianism.

Yeah, I agree. I think it allows for really good "Borat" moments. The audiences let their biases flow and all the crap that comes with it, like the rampant sexist attacks on Skylar and even on the actress, Anna Gunn. And, like allowing yourself to identify with an egotistical nutcase like Walter White instead of thinking critically about his actions. I suppose that's why I defend the show? It's more of an indictment of the audience. The show itself is great, it's just that most of the people who watch it suck.

[The Feral Underclass]

People who dislike/hate Walter White are liberals.

[Krano]

wugY6HNLOCo

[Rafiq]

Walt aligned himself with neo Nazis, and in doing so he identified himself with them. For this crime, there can be no redemption for him.

[Il Medico]

Walt aligned himself with neo Nazis, and in doing so he identified himself with them. For this crime, there can be no redemption for him.
Man, like, Walt hiring a bunch of ABs to do his dirty work is probably one of the least reprehensible things he's done in this show. Walt is like a serious asshole.

[skitty]

i love me some mike. and huell and kuby are a fun teamMike and Saul were great. Anyone else like The Cousins?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=s1hxA_Nlf4Y

[synthesis]

I've been binging on "Continuum" recently; it's outrageously stupid politically, but as a sci-fi show it's decent, and there was a great, subtle Breaking Bad reference in an episode I watched yesterday (S02E07, I think) that I'd like to know if anyone else happened to catch.

This kid (a poor man's Jesse Eisenberg via The Social Network) is talking about his next date with his new girlfriend; he has this really expensive computer lab set-up, and he brings up just eating in and making food there. She says, "So you're going to cook for me in a lab, Mr. Heisenberg?" There's absolutely no lead-up or indication they're talking about Breaking Bad in that conversation; I just thought it was a funny "wait, what?" kind of moment.

[bcbm]

welp here we go... heisenberg's last stand

[brigadista]

Name check to Rednoise here- l stuck with it - very interested to know there will be a Spanish language version remake - possibly the Mexican side - but it has been really good on the gender politics - my fav character has been Jesse - I really loathe Walter white- interesting take on the American dream for this non American - and I liked mike - skylark was the real character looking after the family .... Will be v interested to see how it ends -it's been v intense ....

-

[Il Medico]

Saul made it! He lives! In Nebraska, but he lives!

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/woop_woop.gif

[Tim Cornelis]

Why does everyone like Saul so much. He's not likable 'tall.

[Il Medico]

Why does everyone like Saul so much. He's not likable 'tall.
Good thing he's not tall then. :p

[bcbm]

- I really loathe Walter white- interesting take on the American dream for this non American

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/22/breaking_bads_racial_politics_walter_white_angry_w hite_man/

check this article out


Why does everyone like Saul so much. He's not likable 'tall.

because he is a snappy dresser and has great one liners, duh. and is like actually pretty smart and good at his job even if he is sleazy. i'd have loved to have a lawyer like him a few times back in the day

[Creative Destruction]

welp here we go... heisenberg's last stand

more than anything, i just want Jesse to catch a goddamn break.

[bcbm]

more than anything, i just want Jesse to catch a goddamn break.

i dont know what that would even mean at this point. that kid is fucked for life

[synthesis]

This is kind of fucked up, but for about 30 seconds at the very beginning of the episode I had a sort of vicarious pleasure in seeing Jesse suffer. I guess the thought process behind it was, "That's what you get for ratting on someone for no fucking reason, just because you don't like them." Then I started to feel bad for him, and the schadenfreude had completely evaporated by the time Todd shot Andrea.

[Creative Destruction]

i dont know what that would even mean at this point. that kid is fucked for life

have him kill the nazis, torture todd, kill walt, give him the $11mill and have saul's guy help him start over somewhere else.

i don't know. all the shit he's been through, it's terrible. maybe just killing him would be giving him a break.

[bcbm]

i direct the last two comments to the following: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/the-critics-and-jesse-pinkman/

[synthesis]

i direct the last two comments to the following: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/the-critics-and-jesse-pinkman/

Damn, that's a good article. I kind of forgot about Jesse's scheme to sell meth to people in the AA group. What a fucking hypocrite.

[Creative Destruction]

i direct the last two comments to the following: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/the-critics-and-jesse-pinkman/

that's a pretty big strawman. the author assumes that "Team Jesse" thinks he's innocent. there are no innocents with the main cast.

[bcbm]

i dunno a lot of people seem to think that while not being innocent he has suffered sooo much or whatever and i dunno. just because the dog makes a sad face at you doesnt mean it didnt dig the garbage out all over the kitchen. jesse's suffering is tied to his own poor decisions just as much as walt which ties into the larger theme in the show about unintended consequences

[brigadista]

I think It's impossible for Jesse to make anything but poor decisions - it seems he's never met his parents expectations - he says to ww when they fight it doesn't hurt so much after the first time indicating he's probably been beaten a lot - whereas ww feels entitled to everything Jesse feels guilty - he's damaged - he was never going to
make anything but poor decisions -

[Tim Cornelis]

because he is a snappy dresser and has great one liners, duh. and is like actually pretty smart and good at his job even if he is sleazy. i'd have loved to have a lawyer like him a few times back in the day

His voice is too 'raspy' and he has no charisma, like, say, a Harvey Spectre has.

[bcbm]

His voice is too 'raspy' and he has no charisma, like, say, a Harvey Spectre has.

you are so wrong it is not even remotely funny

[Le Socialiste]

The lull before the storm...

Anyone else hoping to see a little ricin end up in Elliot and Gretchen's coffee?

[synthesis]

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2013/09/tumblr_mtem6hPxjK1stp6lqo1_500.jpg

[brigadista]

The lull before the storm...

Anyone else hoping to see a little ricin end up in Elliot and Gretchen's coffee?

maybe the ricin is not necessary - doesn't Gray Matter own Madrigal?

[Creative Destruction]

maybe the ricin is not necessary - doesn't Gray Matter own Madrigal?

i don't think so. Madrigal is it's own conglomerate.

[Il Medico]

The nazis are dead. Walt is dead. Lydia is uber fucked. Jesse is free. Jesse got to strangle Todd to death. Huell is still in the safe house...

Good finale.

[Comrade Samuel]

The nazis are dead. Walt is dead. Lydia is uber fucked. Jesse is free. Jesse got to strangle Todd to death. Huell is still in the safe house...

Good finale.

I'm interested in hearing some thoughts on this, more specifically some responses to the question "did Walt redeem himself?"

As of right now I'm actually leaning towards saying yes. He gave the Nazis what was coming to them, He (deservedly) gave Jesse another chance at life and finally achknowledged/overcame his narcissistic nature by consciously choosing not find out where his money was hidden. Hell, he even found a way to get what money he did have to his family without them even knowing it was him- if taken out of context this all sounds like the conduct of a regular cut and dry protagonist who fights evil and dies a hero's death but since we've all seen the entire series and know that Walt is actually as bad or worse than everybody he's killed/negatively affected it raises this interesting question of redemption. Y'know alternatively you could just review every other episode and find 1000+ reasons why he is arguably the most terrible character in the history of storytelling but it's food for thought I guess....

Thoughts?

[Creative Destruction]

I'm interested in hearing some thoughts on this, more specifically some responses to the question "did Walt redeem himself?"

Not in the least. In order to get anywhere near redemption, he would have killed himself after Skylar and Walt's dinner with Marie and Hank in "Confessions". The fact that he admitted that he was in it for himself put him further from redemption. It just made him a more honest asshole than he was before.

As Saul said "Sorry, but you're still two miracles away from sainthood."

[Le Socialiste]

While I'm sorry to see it go, what a ride this show's been. Awesome storytelling, satisfying ending...what more could one ask for?

As for Walt's redemption? I don't think I see it quite in that light. When you consider the fact that he returned to Albuquerque out of pride, not selflessness, things like 'redemption' aren't really in the picture. Walt came back to tie up loose ends, and to ensure his legacy remained his - that the nazis were still cooking and distributing Walt's 'product' irked him to no end. That, and I like to think he needed some way to make sure what little money he had left went to his family (or at least Flynn/Walt Jr.).

Either way, what a send off. Sort of wished Jesse (Jessie?) had died, simply because that kid has to have some serious psychological and physical trauma after all he's seen and gone through. It'll take years of therapy just to pull his life back together, if he manages to at all. I don't really know how one bounces back from something like this, though I guess people have come back from worse...

[synthesis]

Other than an epic Lily-of-the-Valley mindfuck (which I was sort of expecting given the slow camera roll at the end) it was the perfect finale.

Breaking Bad is not a show about redemption.

[Il Medico]

I really enjoyed the episode, it pretty much just went down my check list of things I wanted to see happen in the finale. It did it's job expertly and provided closure for both the characters and the audience. However, I felt something was a tad off about it. I wasn't sure at first, but I think it's just how in control Walt seems. It didn't really feel like the actions of any other characters really mattered. The tone this episode sets in that regard is radically different than pretty much the entire rest of the second half of the season in which Walt slowly lost all control. The way the finale plays out I don't think you could convince me it could have happened differently. Walt in the finale did not seem like a dying man being hunted by the law making a last desperate attempt to secure his legacy. He seemed like a man completely in control, just putting his house in order before his death. I hardly think this ruins the finale or season in anyway, but it is a blemish on an otherwise near prefect conclusion to a great show.

As for Walt redeeming himself, I think he may have a little bit in regards to Jesse. I think he had every intention of killing Jesse for most of the episode. But seeing Jesse in the state he was washed away his anger at Jesse and brought back the semi-paternal feelings he had for him. Walt tackling Jesse and subsequently taking a bullet in the process of shielding him was the only selfless thing Walt did the entire episode (or season for that matter,except trying to save Hank). So perhaps there's a bit of redeeming to be had there, but pretty much everything else he did was for himself or his legacy. Closure and peace should not be confused for redemption.

[synthesis]

Walt tackling Jesse and subsequently taking a bullet in the process of shielding him was the only selfless thing Walt did the entire episode (or season for that matter).

It's not selfless to give up all the money for which you've risked (and lost) everything in order to try to save the life of someone who wants nothing more than to put you in prison for the rest of your life? Sure, he got a barrel of it back, but he was offering up all of it. That's just the moment I keep coming back to when the subject of Walt's moral decay comes up.

I do agree with the part of your post about the episode not really fitting the theme of things spinning out of control for Walt. But yeah, the only thing I would have thought to change was at the very end, where I was hoping he was going to blow up the AB's meth lab so as to literally go out in a blaze of glory. I guess that wouldn't really give his family the same sense of closure, but it would have been worth it just to end the series with a giant explosion.

[brigadista]

walt was dying anyway - would he have done things differently if he wasnt?

i did like his actions re the gray matter 'beautiful people"[great line]

and his admission to Skylar that he did it for himself[at last]

but Jesse got the raw deal as said above he has to live with it all as do Skylar , flynn, Marie , Brock

Im not saying it would be good to see WW arrested but he got out of it all easy

[Le Socialiste]

One thing is certain - I won't be able to listen to "Baby Blue" the same way ever again (that, and "Crystal Blue Persuasion"). Damn you Breaking Bad!

[bcbm]

looking back on the episode i agree it did seem a little too happy, a little too perfect. walt maybe wasn't redeemed, but he still won in the end and did so by giving up the one thing that pushed him to his final sad state: his hubris. well, almost. his hubris got him to finally get 'what he was owed' from gretchen and elliot. but his family will never know it was him. and playing the sad, dying man for lydia and the nazis sets him up perfectly to take them down and save jesse's life one last time.

but let's be real, i was gripping my leg so hard the blood flow was cut off for most of the episode and rooting for walt every step of the way. did he get off too easy? probably. i was basically expecting the ending we got, or something very, very dark a la ozymandias. but the climax of the season was also the rock bottom and when that last song kicked in as walt died on the meth lab floor, i know i had a grin on my face.

TkA7xQb6uPk

[Il Medico]

It's not selfless to give up all the money for which you've risked (and lost) everything in order to try to save the life of someone who wants nothing more than to put you in prison for the rest of your life? Sure, he got a barrel of it back, but he was offering up all of it. That's just the moment I keep coming back to when the subject of Walt's moral decay comes up.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Well, two things then.



but let's be real, i was gripping my leg so hard the blood flow was cut off for most of the episode and rooting for walt every step of the way. did he get off too easy? probably. i was basically expecting the ending we got, or something very, very dark a la ozymandias. but the climax of the season was also the rock bottom and when that last song kicked in as walt died on the meth lab floor, i know i had a grin on my face.
I was wasn't really on the edge of my seat honestly. Walt was too in control for me to really wonder if he would succeed. I was just left to wonder how. It's not terrible. It works. They managed to even get me rooting for Walter again for the first time in like four seasons. But it wasn't a finale or episode where I had was repeated yelling "OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT!!!!!!!!" like say Ozymandias or last season's finale. Of course, I don't think that was possible going with the 'happy' ending like they did. I got everything I could have wanted from a 'happy' ending, but part of me still wishes they had gone dark.

[synthesis]

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Well, two things then.

To me it was more than just another exception to the rule. It was substantive proof that Walt never actually developed a true sociopathy over the course of the show. He was willing to lose everything that he'd fought so hard for just to save the life of someone who literally wanted nothing more to take everything away from him. (I think the reason that he didn't do the same thing for Jesse at the time was because he was outraged that Jesse would betray him after he'd risked so much to protect him, whereas Hank was family-family.)

[bcbm]

I was wasn't really on the edge of my seat honestly. Walt was too in control for me to really wonder if he would succeed. I was just left to wonder how. It's not terrible. It works. They managed to even get me rooting for Walter again for the first time in like four seasons. But it wasn't a finale or episode where I had was repeated yelling "OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT!!!!!!!!" like say Ozymandias or last season's finale.

i guess i knew more or less walt was going to win but i still was pretty tense for most of the episode, or just i dunno. it was fun to watch it play out and all the ends get tied off.


Of course, I don't think that was possible going with the 'happy' ending like they did. I got everything I could have wanted from a 'happy' ending, but part of me still wishes they had gone dark.

yeah i think walt getting a little more fucked with would have been in order and made for a decent episode. though after the previous episodes i don't know if any of us could take any more punches in the gut like that. the big punches had to come earlier so they could leave us with a little gentler ending that felt right.


To me it was more than just another exception to the rule. It was substantive proof that Walt never actually developed a true sociopathy over the course of the show. He was willing to lose everything that he'd fought so hard for just to save the life of someone who literally wanted nothing more to take everything away from him.

i dunno i don't think it was that selfless. with hank dead whether he had the money or not nothing could ever be the same, whatever panic-stricken delusions he had later. he was still looking out for number one

[synthesis]

i dunno i don't think it was that selfless. with hank dead whether he had the money or not nothing could ever be the same, whatever panic-stricken delusions he had later. he was still looking out for number one

Well, nothing would have ever been the same if he actually got them to let Hank live, either, especially not if Walt gave up all his money to save him. Walt would still have gone to prison for the rest of his life and then he wouldn't have had that cash to give his kids.

The ABs killing both Hank and Jesse with no protest from Walt, from a rational-sociopathic point of view, would have been the most favorable outcome for him, not least because he wouldn't have had to give up the location of the barrels and could have come out of everything with ten times as much money, and the AB would have still needed him for that last cook. If he was capable of lying to his family about Hank's fate - i.e. been a sociopath - which you think wouldn't be that much of a stretch, he would have had everything he wanted from the beginning. The DEA wouldn't even have ever known that he was Heisenberg.

[bcbm]

i dunno i guess i never thought he was a sociopath, just a pretty huge asshole with a 'fuzzy' view of reality re: his decisions and even his 'selfless' actions are still self-serving to some degree

[synthesis]

even his 'selfless' actions are still self-serving to some degree

Aren't everyone's? I mean, the reason it was self-serving was precisely because he was a good enough person that he couldn't let Hank get killed and/or lie about it to his family.

[bcbm]

Aren't everyone's? I mean, the reason it was self-serving was precisely because he was a good enough person that he couldn't let Hank get killed and/or lie about it to his family.

'i made a meth empire and ruined countless lives but oh shit when my personal life might be affected i become a huge baby'
i feel like the series could've ended at 'ozymandias' and still been a powerful force in tv.

but i like that they kept on. i feel like looking back over the whole thing the ending should've fucked walt a bit more and had him suffer and not get off so clean. i mean he left a fucking hurricane in his wake, which is one of the points, but i feel he got off easy.

i mean he 'suffered' because he had to get the cash to his family by denying everything he ever did. and his final record will read that they just found him dead at the scene of a multiple homicide.

but he still won. really.

and should he have? i don't know. i wanted more retribution before i saw the last episode. but i feel satisfied. the ending was definitely a crowd pleaser. but i feel okay with that. walt was a privileged white asshole who felt he deserved more and went well beyond his suburban cracker existence to get his share... and cost so many people so much to feel his small validation...
and fuck him.

but i'm still glad he won in his own small way

[Althusser]

Other than have the 9 possible informants killed in prison... what did Walt do that was soooo bad?

[ВАЛТЕР]

Created a meth empire which ruined fuck knows how many lives with his product.

[bcbm]

Other than have the 9 possible informants killed in prison... what did Walt do that was soooo bad?

left a whirlwind of death and misery in his violent quest to stroke his ego.

[Hrafn]

There's gonna be a big hole in my heart now, where Breaking Bad used to be. <_<

[La Comédie Noire]

Watched a girl choke to death on her own vomit and it wasn't even a pragmatic self interest thing, but a crazy spite thing.

Forced his son to take shots of whiskey till he puked, which was a crazy spite thing against Hank.

Creepily stalks Skyler all through seasons 3 and 4, goes to her place of work when he finds out she's sleeping with someone else, even though she made it perfectly clear they were done.

Gale* Which gets an asterisk because it can be argued it was out of self preservation.

Poisons a little kid.

Shot Mike to get the names of his 9 men and then when he realized he could just get the names from Lydia half asses an apology where he doesn't apologize for shooting Mike mind you, but for being mistaken. And it can also be argued he shot him out of spite for refusing to give him what he wanted and maybe jealousy for being a father figure to Jesse.

Continues to cook crystal meth just because.

Also not accepting the money for his treatment from Gretchen and Elliott because of his pride and instead choosing to cook crystal meth because he liked the money and power, putting his family in extreme danger and ultimately leading to Hank's death.

And that's the entire tension of the show and Walter White right there. He can't run a crystal meth empire and have a family at the same time. The most redeeming thing about him is his family, but he fucks that up for good.

If you notice throughout the show real career criminals have contempt and even disrespect for Walt. They see him as a foolish middle class adventurer who bases most of his actions off of emotions and will probably wind up getting them all killed or arrested.

The Last episode:

I thought it was great. It was a good middle ground between the people who totally loathed Walter White and the people who loved him. He admits outright that everything he did was for himself. So he uses all his skill and ingenuity to not make it right, but in Vince Gilligan's words "as right as things could be."

They pulled out all the old troupes for this episode, Badger and Skinny Pete, Walt's scientific ability (When I saw that M60 contraption all I could think of was "Yeah Mr. White, yeah Science!") Jesse and Walt getting into a pathetic fight, which had a great twist on it. The shot of Jesse pointing the gun at Walt, which was almost certainly a call back to when he was pointing the gun at Gale, him wearing the exact same outfit from the first episode.

Not to mention the last episode had the look and feel of the first because it was directed and written by Vince Gilligan.

And I couldn't think of anything more fitting than that Walt should die in a lab with a smile on his face. Which is all he really cared about in the end, the chemistry.

[The Feral Underclass]

left a whirlwind of death and misery in his violent quest to stroke his ego.

What is fundamentally bad about that?

[brigadista]

still choke up when i think of Jesse - my favorite scene when his house is full of meth heads and he has lost all hope and he takes the girl up to his bedroom to play a computer game with him...

[Creative Destruction]

the song they used really clinched that scene.

EBAzlNJonO8

[La Comédie Noire]

Yeah man. Walt has to go into the deepest pit of the hell he created with his meth cooking to retrieve Jesse a person whose misery he's directly responsible for. Very powerful scene.

[bcbm]

What is fundamentally bad about that?

well its a bit rude

[The Feral Underclass]

well its a bit rude

Oh not you as well.

[synthesis]

I read a pretty good article the other day that said, basically, that "Heisenberg is the ultimate midlife crisis."

I think the difference of the opinion of Walt in the show's audience is really interesting. There's an interview with Anna Gunn where she talks about how surprised Gilligan was about the extent of people's sympathy with Walt, the converse of how David Chase was surprised about how the audience came to loathe Tony Soprano later on in the show's run.

According to Chase, The Sopranos' famous ending was basically a giant middle finger to those viewers, who he felt were hypocritical (or something). It seems like Gilligan anticipated a similar reaction; he was always quoted as saying that the finale would be "polarizing," which seems to me to be a clear reference to the reception of the Sopranos finale. With Breaking Bad, people either liked the finale or they loved it. I didn't see any "love it or hate it" elements at all. (Because of the "polarizing" thing, I was slightly disappointed that the episode wasn't more, let's say "provocative", but it was still a great finale.)

The interview with Gunn is here (http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/breaking-bads-skyler-the-chickens-do-come-home-to-roost-20130923); it's really good. The part where she talks about Bryan Cranston playing pranks on people is funny as fuck and reminded me of this:

AXzp5tQXL-00:36 is the best one, in my opinion.

[La Comédie Noire]

Bogdon! :lol: 8:02

[Zukunftsmusik]

I watched the last episode last night, now I have a deep black hole in me that I can't fill.

I watched the whole series this autumn/winter (which resulted in lose of sleep and kinda ruined my reading for my finals), so I can only imagine how it feels after following this over several years.

[bcbm]

i wanna watch it all again

[Lily Briscoe]

I watched the last episode recently. Honestly think breaking bad was the most absurdly overrated television series since the Sopranos (I was gonna say since The Wire, but thinking about the critical praise to quality ratio, it was wayyy more overrated than The Wire, even though The Wire was very overrated IMO). People talk about Breaking Bad like it was some artistic masterpiece, which is completely bizarre to me. IMO it was basically 'artistically' equivalent to that horrible show '24' that was on like a decade ago: addicting but complete garbage.

[bcbm]

you are so wrong

[Full Metal Bolshevik]

I watched the last episode recently. Honestly think breaking bad was the most absurdly overrated television series since the Sopranos (I was gonna say since The Wire, but thinking about the critical praise to quality ratio, it was wayyy more overrated than The Wire, even though The Wire was very overrated IMO). People talk about Breaking Bad like it was some artistic masterpiece, which is completely bizarre to me. IMO it was basically 'artistically' equivalent to that horrible show '24' that was on like a decade ago: addicting but complete garbage.
What are your favourite series?

Because the last person I met that thought Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones were overrated had NCIS and similar as his favorites shows.

[Ele'ill]

Game of Thrones I think is just bad overall, Breaking Bad is boring but better than Game of Thrones

[Full Metal Bolshevik]

Game of Thrones I think is just bad overall, Breaking Bad is boring but better than Game of Thrones
Same question to you. What are your favorite series?

[Ele'ill]

My So Called Life, David The Gnome, Firefly, x-files, Strange Luck, are you afraid of the dark, the little prince (in outer-space), Buffy The Vampire Slayer, The Walking Dead, dino riders

[Zukunftsmusik]

The "THIS IS THE BEST SHOW EVER I HAVE TO TELL ALL MY FRIENDS TO WATCH IT BECAUSE IT'S SO AWESOME"-types, or the "let's analyse this or that social phenomenon through the lens of this popular show just because"-types are really annoying, but I don't think it's "absurdly overrated" (note that I live in Norway, where, I think at least, not all seasons have been shown on (national) TV, and the hype (or lack thereof) might have missed me for this reason). I think it was well written and well filmed, with interesting characters. It has its flaws, but it's good, if not a masterpiece.


Because the last person I met that thought Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones were overrated had NCIS and similar as his favorites shows.

lol

[Full Metal Bolshevik]

My So Called Life, David The Gnome, Firefly, x-files, Strange Luck, are you afraid of the dark, the little prince (in outer-space), Buffy The Vampire Slayer, The Walking Dead, dino riders

I honestly don't know many of those.

But The Walking Dead, seriously? Mediocre characters, bad dialogue. The only reason I still watch it is because I have lots of free time and a fool's hope that it will get better (and it did, after a terrible 2nd Season, the 3rd one started very well, but then got worse again).

[KurtFF8]

I just finished the series about a week ago. I'm going to have to say I agree with La Comédie Noire's post on the last page: Walt was pretty much evil and got what he had coming to him (to some extent, although he got away with too much).

He was kind of like the classic "evil genius" from old films, but done in the realistic vein that a lot of new super hero movies are done in. But in this case he was the main character and many even rooted for him.

I agree with some of the reviews out there that Breaking Bad is, to some extent at least, a critique of greed and accumulation that we see under capitalism. I mean look at all that happened just because Walt wanted to keep making more money.

[Ele'ill]

I honestly don't know many of those.

But The Walking Dead, seriously? Mediocre characters, bad dialogue. The only reason I still watch it is because I have lots of free time and a fool's hope that it will get better (and it did, after a terrible 2nd Season, the 3rd one started very well, but then got worse again).


I only watch the walking dead for the ambient nature sounds of crickets and cicadas that I miss so much since there are no sounds at all on the west coast it is a sensory deprivation region like you're laying on a table at the morgue with a white sheet over your face.


Also note it takes place in Georgia and I can't recall a single rainstorm in the entire series so far :glare:

[Lily Briscoe]

What are your favourite series?

Because the last person I met that thought Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones were overrated had NCIS and similar as his favorites shows.

Aside from films, I don't really watch television (not out of some hippie philosophical thing; I just personally find it really boring). The only TV show I've ever really liked a lot (excluding stuff I liked as a kid) was Seinfeld, and even that got pretty bad toward the end IMO.

Occasionally if a show gets a ton of hype etc. and the general concept doesn't sound unbearably bad, it is theoretically possible for someone to goad me into watching it with them, if they are persistent enough about it. This is how I ended up watching most of the shows that I've watched in recent years (e.g. Sopranos, The Wire, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Breaking Bad; I think there have been a couple others I'm not remembering off the top of my head)

Prior to getting me into watching Breaking Bad, my partner kept trying to get me to watch an episode of the show 'Big Bang Theory' with her. Eventually I made the mistake of agreeing to... And I couldn't even finish one episode, it was so, so, so shockingly bad. Which makes me wonder... if that show is any indication of what most of the stuff on TV these days is like, that would actually go a long way toward explaining why lame shows like Breaking Bad are hailed as these ingenious works of art.


...

The quote in your sig is really dumb, btw. (Sorry, I know it's off topic, but it's what I end up thinking literally every time I read one of your posts, even when I agree with something you say)

[Ele'ill]

you're saying breaking bad is overrated but you're a fan of Seinfeld, nice

[Zukunftsmusik]

The quote in your sig is really dumb, btw.

I know.