Afganistan

[j.guevara]

could somebody fill me in on whats happening in Afganistan. Im sure it cant be good cause i havent heard it mentioned in the news for a while.

[LuZhiming]

Basically, it is in complete chaos. Thieves roam the land freely, women and children are raped by U.S. backed warlords, the U.S. and its puppet have little power over the people, and Karzai doesn't trust his people. It's really sad when women are worse off now than they were under the Taliban. The Taliban at least didn't let anyone get away with raping women, they punished people like that quite brutally. Just check some Amnesty Internation or Human Rights Watch reports: http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-afg/index http://hrw.org/campaigns/afghanistan/

[monkeydust]

It's interesting how, America, being the great liberator that it is desn't really seem to care about Afghanistan anymore....on to the next country.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 11:01 PM
It's interesting how, America, being the great liberator that it is desn't really seem to care about Afghanistan anymore....on to the next country.
Heh, and it isn't a coincidence that the media has mysteriously forgotten about Afghanistan as well.

[LSD]

Despite all the propaganda and pre-war talk, Afghanistan is pretty much as bad (if not worse) as it was under the Taliban.

Sure, women can go to school now, but there really aren't any.

Sure, there are no religious laws, but there's no food either.

Sure, the authoritarian Taliban is out, but the authoritarian warlords are in.


Outside of Kabul, the US has done nothing, so it's in the same damn place that they left Somalia in.

And now, they're pulling all their troops out, because...well....they're needed to occupy the new target.


If you want an indication of where Iraq is headed, look at Afghanistan, and realize it isn't good.....

[Segarr]

http://rawa.false.net

^^^ That site sums up Afghanistan pretty well I believe.

[DeadMan]

We had a GIANT conversation about this in my english class. All I can say is I delivered my speech on it, made me points...might of flipped out and called Bush &#39;a fucking nazi asshole who should be shot&#39;...cough...now the school psycologist is all over me <_< :angry: . Aparently saying you hate the US in my school is illegal or something. I feel bad for Afgany, they had it better with the Taliban. God, my hate for Bush lacks words.

DeadMan.

[18tir]

I believe America was right to go to war in Afghanistan. America did not start the war, it retaliated after 3,000 of its civilians were killed. I&#39;m not at all a fan of the Bush administration, but I think he did the right think by destroying the Taliban regime and weakening Al-Qaeda. More than 2 years after the extreme fundamentalist Taliban were thrown out of power, It has been announced that an Islamic Republic is to be the new system of government. Even if this government is better than the former regime, it&#39;s still a theocracy and I&#39;m not sure how democratic this new government will be.

In any case, Karzai&#39;s government only controls Kabul and the area around it. The rest of the country is ruled by the brutal warlords. The first priority for the new government should be bringing the country under its control. To do this, it will need America&#39;s help and since the US is partially responsible for the present situation, I believe it has an obligation to help the government. The first task should be dismantling the warlords and bringing the cities and provinces under government authority. After this, America should be certain that the new government will be a democratic one. There should also be plan to hold a refrendum in 10 years or so and give the Afghan people a choice between a Secular or an Islamic Republic.

In addition, the US along with the world community should provide several billion dollars in economic and humanitarian aid to rebuild the country and provide food for the people.

[LSD]

I believe America was right to go to war in Afghanistan. America did not start the war, it retaliated after 3,000 of its civilians were killed.


No, America started the war. 3000 civilians were killed by a bunch of mostly Saudi Arabians lead by a Saudi Arabian, so they bombed Afghanistan.

The People of Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11, and bombing them hardly discourages them from joining terrorist organizations.


&#39;m not at all a fan of the Bush administration, but I think he did the right think by destroying the Taliban regime and weakening Al-Qaeda

No one here is a fan of the Taliban, but the point is that the average Afghani is no better now than two years ago. In fact many are worse. Instead of the cruel and authoritarian Taliban, we have cruel and authoritarian warlords. muuuch better.


More than 2 years after the extreme fundamentalist Taliban were thrown out of power, It has been announced that an Islamic Republic is to be the new system of government. Even if this government is better than the former regime, it&#39;s still a theocracy and I&#39;m not sure how democratic this new government will be.

A government with no power....


In any case, Karzai&#39;s government only controls Kabul and the area around it.

Exactly.


To do this, it will need America&#39;s help and since the US is partially responsible for the present situation, I believe it has an obligation to help the government. The first task should be dismantling the warlords and bringing the cities and provinces under government authority. After this, America should be certain that the new government will be a democratic one. There should also be plan to hold a refrendum in 10 years or so and give the Afghan people a choice between a Secular or an Islamic Republic.

And to meet this "obligation" the US is........pulling out its troops......to occupy Iraq.


In addition, the US along with the world community should provide several billion dollars in economic and humanitarian aid to rebuild the country and provide food for the people.

But they won&#39;t and that (among other reasons)* is why the war was fundamentally unjust.


*yah....other reasons...well, it violated the letter international law, the spirit of international law, and the fundamental tenant on which all foreign policy is based. Plus, in the end, it was pure saber rattling, and that&#39;s never good.

[Sabocat]

The U&#036; couldn&#39;t care less what happens to Afghanistan. The only thing they&#39;re concerned with is strategic control of the country and it&#39;s resources. All the leadership put in place there were former oil exec&#39;s.

Afghan Gas Pipeline Planned, Will Depend on US Commitment to Afghan Security

Hamid Karzai signed the pipeline agreement on May 30, 2002, in time to influence the loya jirga which elected him president. The not-so-subtle whiff of petroleum politics was aptly caught by the Irish Times, in their issue of June 22:

"A strong smell of fossil fuel hung over the Loya Jirga proceedings. On May 30th, Mr Karzai and the presidents of Turkmenistan and Pakistan signed an agreement to build a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Pakistan. Mr Karzai&#39;s Oil Minister said there was a good chance the US company UNOCAL (formerly Union Oil Company of California) would obtain the contract to exploit the pipeline. Mr Karzai, it just so happens, was a salaried consultant to UNOCAL in 1996 and 1997, when he drew up a feasibility study of the Afghan pipeline. During that time, he became friends with another UNOCAL consultant, Mr Zalmay Khalilzad.

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/qfpip.html

[RedAnarchist]

America will tell the American media to stop talking about a certain country after a while so that they can leave it quietly after taking wahtever they want - oil etc.

The Americans want to liberate only one thing - resources that are important to them that other countries have

I wonder what will happen in 20/30 years when the world&#39;s oil runs out? Will America want something else or will it collapse? I can see neo-cons now in 2024 hagning themselves rather than live in a oil-free world&#33; :lol:

[18tir]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 12:27 PM
America will tell the American media to stop talking about a certain country after a while so that they can leave it quietly after taking wahtever they want - oil etc.


The American people should not allow that to happen. We should do everything we can to make sure Afghanistan is not forgotten. The last time America forgot about Afghanistan, the country collapsed into civil war. America is obliged to provide stability for the Afghan people.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 05:56 AM
The American people should not allow that to happen. We should do everything we can to make sure Afghanistan is not forgotten. The last time America forgot about Afghanistan, the country collapsed into civil war. America is obliged to provide stability for the Afghan people.
Forgot? The U.S. literally started that war, forgetting is the opposite of its problem. The people of the U.S. are mainly too ignorant and indoctrinated to even think much about Afghanistan.

[18tir]

No, America started the war. 3000 civilians were killed by a bunch of mostly Saudi Arabians lead by a Saudi Arabian, so they bombed Afghanistan.

The People of Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9/11, and bombing them hardly discourages them from joining terrorist organizations.

It is true that most of the terrorists were Saudi. But the organization which organized and planned the attack was based in Afghanistan and allied with the Taliban. So, I think America had the same rights as any country who is attacked. The US retaliated against Al-Qaeda by bombing and seriously damaging their organization. America was attacked on 9/11 and it retaliated. This is self-defense, not aggression.

Of course the people of Afghanistan were not responsible for 9/11. They are innocent of any crimes the Taliban and Al-Qaeda committed. Unfortunately, around 3,500 civilians were killed in the war. This is expected in wars and although it is tragic, I cannot see what else the US could have done. At least 1,000,000 Afghans were killed by the Soviets during the 1980s. 3,500 is very small by comparison and the Taliban regime has been destroyed. In my opinion, those civilian deaths were as much Al-Qaeda&#39;s fault as it was America&#39;s. By attacking the US, they drew the Americans into Afghanistan.

[LuZhiming]

It is true that most of the terrorists were Saudi. But the organization which organized and planned the attack was based in Afghanistan and allied with the Taliban.

The only reason it was &#39;allied&#39; with the Taliban was because bin Laden was kicked out of Sudan, and it was the Taliban who would allow him to operate in Afghanistan.


So, I think America had the same rights as any country who is attacked. The US retaliated against Al-Qaeda by bombing and seriously damaging their organization.

:lol: Seriously damaging? Look, watch his recruiting tapes ( http://www.ciaonet.org/cbr/cbr00/video/cbr.html ), he fuels himself on the anger of the people in the region.(Which is quite justified.) What the U.S. has done is basically open up recruiting officers for Al-Qaeda by launching an indiscriminate bombing campaign. And what the hell were they expecting to accomplish? Did the U.S. really think Osama bin Laden was going to be sitting at the Tora Bora mountains months after the attack, waiting for the U.S.? Of course not. They haven&#39;t even captured Mullah Omar yet. What did Al-Qaeda do? What did Osama bin Laden do? They ran away, they left. Just as predicted by many that opposed the war. So what did the U.S. do? Put the country in chaos and kill a bunch of civillians. That&#39;s all they have accomplished.

What the U.S. should have done if they really wanted to stop these attacks was to:

1. Remove U.S. troops from Saudi Arabia
2. End the Israeli occupation and murder
3. End the support for Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey, Israel, Egypt and other brutal regimes of the region
4. End the sanctions and bombings of Iraq which were devastating the country
5. Stop all interventions in the region
6. Pay back the civillians of countries in the region the U.S. has devastated

This would immediately stop terrorism against the U.S. The killing spree of the U.S. will just make people of the region more angry and miserable.


Of course the people of Afghanistan were not responsible for 9/11. They are innocent of any crimes the Taliban and Al-Qaeda committed. Unfortunately, around 3,500 civilians were killed in the war. This is expected in wars and although it is tragic, I cannot see what else the US could have done. At least 1,000,000 Afghans were killed by the Soviets during the 1980s. 3,500 is very small by comparison and the Taliban regime has been destroyed. In my opinion, those civilian deaths were as much Al-Qaeda&#39;s fault as it was America&#39;s. By attacking the US, they drew the Americans into Afghanistan.

Frankly, I wouldn&#39;t assume that figure is true, it does sound too low to me. The U.S. also tried to launch a massive starvation campaign against Afghanistan, how would that hurt the Taliban? The U.S. leaders knew full well that this attack wouldn&#39;t stop terrorism against the U.S., but their greed keeps them from caring.

[yes i am arab]

i mean i hated the taliban....what they were doing wasnt right....but you should never put a person/organization in charge unless they care about what theyre doing....unlike the US "leaders" in Afghanistan.

and on Hamid Karzai....hell yeah he doesnt trust his ppl...his people know that all he is is a US installed dictator in there to support US interests....Karzai has to be guarded by US marines...cos hes so worried that his own afghani bodyguards will kill him

[LSD]

It is true that most of the terrorists were Saudi. But the organization which organized and planned the attack was based in Afghanistan and allied with the Taliban. So, I think America had the same rights as any country who is attacked. The US retaliated against Al-Qaeda by bombing and seriously damaging their organization. America was attacked on 9/11 and it retaliated. This is self-defense, not aggression.


Self-defense means defending yourself.

The fundamental neccessity of any defensive action is that it is defending oneself, in this case the United States.

There is no evidence that the attack on Afghanistan prevented any action that otherwise would of occured. In fact, if anything, it increased recruitment into anti-American organizations...


And besides this is a justification that is only used by the powerfull against the weak.

Remember that on another 9/11, the United States government aided an overthrow of the Chilian government. According to your argument, Chili would of been justified in leveling Washington.