Stand your ground laws after Trayvon Martin

[burntheflag?]

So, after the Trayvon Martin scandal which was so huge in the US for around 2 months, i'm curious.. Opinions on Stand Your Ground laws? And i'm not asking for racism, or hatred for racism. Not asking for a Martin v Zimmerman debate. Simply seeking opinions on the laws themselves.. Good? Bad? If so, why? If not, why not? Thanks in advance comrades

[Tenka]

Bad because it's an excuse for paranoid white people to murder without consequences.

[Jimmie Higgins]

There are already self defense laws, so these laws just seem to solely be something to sanctify vigilantism. The kkk, for example is trying to set up neighborhood watch groups in other people's neighborhoods now.

[d3crypt]

They are idiotic. There have been many cases besides Zimmerman when they have let people get away with murder.

[blake 3:17]

Terrible laws, which encourage vigilantism and property rights bullshit. Smash em!

And self defence is no offence -- but you can't have people (aka men) making turf claims, killing people that are inconvenient and be backed by law. That's craziness!

[blake 3:17]

I was going to respond to a post, and was checking a couple of things, and had no idea that this was in law in the places it is. It's not in Canada, so it's never come up in any practical level for me.

Anyways it's the Castle doctrine, but in Colorado:
The term "Make My Day Law" arose at the time of the 1985 Colorado statute that shielded people from any criminal/civil suits for using force – including deadly force – against an invader of the home.[5] The law's nickname is a reference to the line "Go ahead, make my day" uttered by actor Clint Eastwood's character "Dirty Harry" Callahan (in the 1983 police film Sudden Impact).

Sh#t so messed. There've been several shooting deaths here in the last week or so, totally pointless. Gross.

[Os Cangaceiros]

^I'm sorry, but if someone breaks into my shitty apartment, and I have time to grab my gun, they may just receive an injection of an ounce of lead from my pal Mr Remington.

To equivocate that to randomly accosting someone in the street because you think they look suspicious, and then proceeding to gun them down, is pretty disingenuous.

[Os Cangaceiros]

There are already self defense laws, so these laws just seem to solely be something to sanctify vigilantism. The kkk, for example is trying to set up neighborhood watch groups in other people's neighborhoods now.

^this is pretty much my position as well. I support self-defense, up to & including lethal force...as far as things like rights can be determined, the right to self-defense seems pretty basic to me. I don't support "proactive self-defense", though, lol, and if there's a chance for you to avoid a conflict with another person, you have a duty to take it & not escalate the situation.

The issue of how much force is appropriate to defend yourself can be tricky, too.

[Quail]

^I'm sorry, but if someone breaks into my shitty apartment, and I have time to grab my gun, they may just receive an injection of an ounce of lead from my pal Mr Remington.

To equivocate that to randomly accosting someone in the street because you think they look suspicious, and then proceeding to gun them down, is pretty disingenuous.
Presumably if you did shoot an intruder, you wouldn't kill them? Killing someone for burglary is totally disproportionate.

[blake 3:17]

^I'm sorry, but if someone breaks into my shitty apartment, and I have time to grab my gun.

It's mostly likely to go off and hit somebody else -- maybe you, maybe somebody in the same apartment, maybe somebody in an apartment beside or below. I get so pissed at these bourgie creeps that go trolling for coke or whatever in projects here, and some 2 year old kid gets shot. Bullshit.

Whatever -- maybe you shouldn't have a gun, and maybe you shouldn't be expecting a burglar to have one. Thought of that?

I've had intruders/burglars before -- mostly really messed up folks way wacked out -- and last thing need was a gun. It was a very deliberate Get Out.

Oscar Pistorius murdered his girlfriend claiming bullshit self defense -- she was on the toilet -- When that broke I was talking to South African friends, and they were all, we don't pack, all it's gonna do is get you killed.

Gun culture is death culture.

[blake 3:17]

Presumably if you did shoot an intruder, you wouldn't kill them? Killing someone for burglary is totally disproportionate.


If somebody's breaking into your place and you shoot them, you're not going to be thinking about wounding them. Better to pick up a dictionary or beer bottle and wack em. Guns are death.

[Quail]

If somebody's breaking into your place and you shoot them, you're not going to be thinking about wounding them. Better to pick up a dictionary or beer bottle and wack em. Guns are death.
Well I'm from the UK and I don't own a gun, so I don't really know what goes through someone's mind when they think, "There's a noise downstairs, better get my gun." I've also never had an intruder in my house so I can't really say what I'd do.

I imagine most burglars don't want trouble anyway though - if I was going to steal from someone I'd want to be in and out as quick as possible to make it less likely I'd get caught. A scuffle with the owner of the property would make it easier to track the burglar because they'd leave more forensic evidence.

[Questionable]

Well I'm from the UK and I don't own a gun, so I don't really know what goes through someone's mind when they think, "There's a noise downstairs, better get my gun." I've also never had an intruder in my house so I can't really say what I'd do.

I imagine most burglars don't want trouble anyway though - if I was going to steal from someone I'd want to be in and out as quick as possible to make it less likely I'd get caught. A scuffle with the owner of the property would make it easier to track the burglar because they'd leave more forensic evidence.

I know this sounds petty-bourgeois as fuck, but a desperate junkie looking to sell some electronics for his next fix isn't going to be thinking about forensics when he turns your home invasion into a murder.

[Quail]

I know this sounds petty-bourgeois as fuck, but a desperate junkie looking to sell some electronics for his next fix isn't going to be thinking about forensics when he turns your home invasion into a murder.
But they might think it's more trouble than it's worth fighting you when they could move on to another empty house. Unless you're a drug dealer or something it's highly unlikely someone is going to break into your house with the intention of using deadly force against you.

[Art Vandelay]

Listen its pretty naive to think that there aren't some very serious criminals out there who won't seriously injure or kill you during a home invasion. I mean I don't live in that sketchy of a city, but there are still routinely stabbings throughout the year, how many I'm not even sure, plus the occasional murder. The 'gangs' that operate around here have in the past attacked random people as an initiation process. Canada has alot less violent crime then the U.S., but that doesn't change the fact that if someone breaks into my apartment, the first thing I'd probably do if I had time would be to get my knife, because I would instantly feel concerned for my safety. If it was possible to attempt to diffuse the situation, obviously every effort should be made to do so, but this whole attitude of 'grab a beer bottle or something' is crazy I think. I'm a skinny and lanky white guy, whose never been in any sort of fight outside of a hockey game. I'm going to get whatever I have in my house that will best protect me, cause you don't know what is going on in the mind of an intruder. This whole situation was put into motion by them and you have every right to defend yourself.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Look, if you don't want to die, don't make me fear for my life. It's that simple. I'm not going to make myself a victim just because some fucker(s) thinks they can predate on me. And why would I assume that someone who's breaking into my place would have any sort of human empathy for me? I used to live in a small town and senseless violence was a fact of life even there. Robbery, assault, murder.


It's mostly likely to go off and hit somebody else -- maybe you, maybe somebody in the same apartment, maybe somebody in an apartment beside or below. I get so pissed at these bourgie creeps that go trolling for coke or whatever in projects here, and some 2 year old kid gets shot. Bullshit.

Whatever -- maybe you shouldn't have a gun, and maybe you shouldn't be expecting a burglar to have one. Thought of that?

LOL you don't know me. I've been shooting all manner of firearms since about age 7. If someone gets the drop on me and I die? Oh well, guess that's on me. But if someone else dies in an attempt to victimize me, that's just a risk of their occupation as far as I'm concerned. Why the fuck wouldn't I expect a burglar to have a gun? There's 200+ million firearms floating around in this country! Or a knife? Should I be more concerned with "fighting fair"? :rolleyes:

[greenforest]

They are idiotic. There have been many cases besides Zimmerman when they have let people get away with murder.

The George Zimmerman defense did not use 'stand-your-ground' laws.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

The thing is, Stand Your Ground or not makes no difference, because the patriarchal white supremacist courts are going to continue letting people of colour and women get murdered, and keep imprisoning them if they fight back. Dig CeCe McDonald's piece on the matter (http://supportcece.wordpress.com/2013/08/04/injury-and-insult-trayon-martin-racism-in-the-system-and-a-revolution-amongst-us/) - as a woman who is doing hard time for defending herself from white supremacists (like, the Stormfront type, not the normative liberal type), she can speak to it with more credibility than I can.

[blake 3:17]

The George Zimmerman defense did not use 'stand-your-ground' laws.

They didn't but they did use them as an ideological cover. They're still terrible laws.

[greenforest]

Why should an attacker have more rights than me?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Why should an attacker have more rights than me?

You're looking at this in an idealistic way. The fact of the matter is, the law is going to be applied by heteropatriarchal white capitalist pig judges and courts. Who has what rights is going to have less to do with "stand your ground" and more to do with whose life is more valued by the courts. Again, I highly urge you to read the article I link in my post (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2660265&postcount=18) above.

[RedBen]

all i will say is i believe in the "castle" doctrines, at least in our current(us) capitalist system. in my city people are incredibly violent, to an almost unthinkable level. some people out here in the ghetto simply do not give a fuck. i've known people growing up who seem to be willfully oblivious to consequences. they think jail or prison is a badge of honor and seem nihilistic in their endeavors to commit crimes. just 2 years ago i was walking to a gas station for some nachos drunk and i got jumped by 7 dudes for not wanting to buy weed or crack. after the guy offered and i refused. i got called all kinds of "white mothafucka" and "spic". the guy wanted me to come outside where there were no cameras, i followed him stating i wasn't going to hit him, that he looked like he was still in high school and i was too old to fight a minor. he walked backwards quickly talking shit until i got blind sided by a trash can. i was then pelted with large rocks, glass yoohoo and snapple bottles and again, the trash can. they did not try to punch me, they did not try to engage me man to man, they simply surrounded me and i was overwhelmed. i kept my back to the wall so as to avoid hitting the floor and possibly stomped on. i tried to hit a few of them, this led to the person running away and the rest closing in from my back and sides. i got sick of it and pulled out my bayonet style knife and tried to stab some of them. they eventually fled. i was dripping blood from my head, mouth, even my legs, i had large knots on my head, and a swollen face. what they call out here in the hood "a pumpkin head". if i had a gun i would have fired at them. i could have died if one had smacked my skull with a large(grapefruit sized) rock and had not thrown it. in that moment i had no more sympathy, i would have killed as many as it took to get them off of me, whether it was 1 or half of them. i understand growing up on the street, but i don't feel sorry for some of these fuckers out here. i understand desperation and economic desparity, even racial discrimination, but there is no excuse for some of the behavior i seen all growing up. i had a crackhead try to rob me at gun point when i was 15. what did a zit faced teen have? this was downstairs from where i lived, he came up and threatened me with a gun(during the day) telling me to let him in the entrance to "rob everybody", i had to punch him to knock him back and slammed the door and locked it. i had my older cousin who is crippled and sells knock off jeans out of his truck robbed and shot in the leg(yes they did it to a cripple). i got jumped on all growing up in homeless shelters by groups of kids because i was new and was latino. hell yeah, i hear a strange bump at night i grab my rifle. between uncle sam's training and armed security certification you're goddamned right i will defend my life and the lives of my girlfriend, her mother, her father, her uncle, her sister, and our two 3 year old niece and nephew. sometimes people do very harmful things. the love i have for my family is stronger than the love i have for a stranger who would cause severe harm to my family. btw, chicago had concealed carry now, and i choose not to carry. this is because i am willing to take an ass whooping before killing another person, in the home is another thing all together for me. my loved ones are here.

[Art Vandelay]

It's mostly likely to go off and hit somebody else -- maybe you, maybe somebody in the same apartment, maybe somebody in an apartment beside or below.

I'm sorry Blake but this is absolute bullshit and it's also misrepresenting the ability of people to safely control and posses firearms. Look I'm far from your gun toting lunatic, I'll probably never even own a gun for personal reasons. That being said the idea that I'm more likely to shoot a neighbor or myself, then an intruder is pure fiction and sounds like its coming from someone who has never touched a fire arm. I've been taught to properly and safely handle and store firearms from my dad since I was about 8. I have a gun in my hand and a second to ready mysel and those bullets ain't going anywhere else then center mass on an intruder. In all honesty it's not even like that would be impressive shooting, it's pretty basic marksmanship for anyone who has been trained properly.

[RedBen]

I'm sorry Blake but this is absolute bullshit and it's also misrepresenting the ability of people to safely control and posses firearms. Look I'm far from your gun toting lunatic, I'll probably never even own a gun for personal reasons. That being said the idea that I'm more likely to shoot a neighbor or myself, then an intruder is pure fiction and sounds like its coming from someone who has never touched a fire arm. I've been taught to properly and safely handle and store firearms from my dad since I was about 8. I have a gun in my hand and a second to ready mysel and those bullets ain't going anywhere else then center mass on an intruder. In all honesty it's not even like that would be impressive shooting, it's pretty basic marksmanship for anyone who has been trained properly.
with training it's not hard to hit center en mass. situational awareness is key. some of us can shoot. this is a point of contention i have with some leftists. about the op, no i do not believe in "stand your ground" laws, but i am pro gun.
**from a reasonably close ditance**

[Popular Front of Judea]

RedBen's post points out a basic point that gun fetishists do not get. A gun is not a magic wand. Unlike television in real life people will not automatically do your bidding when you pull your gun. They may well be no stranger to having guns pulled on them. They may have chemical courage in their bloodstream. What then?

If you do have a gun in the house you had better be ready to use it and be ready to shoot at the center of mass. Hint: that is not the shoulder or legs. (Funny that you never see some one bleed out on a leg wound on television)

I do not live in the south side of Chicago or Detroit. I do not have a gun in the apartment. An industrial sized pipe wrench is all I need.


i had a crackhead try to rob me at gun point when i was 15. what did a zit faced teen have? this was downstairs from where i lived, he came up and threatened me with a gun(during the day) telling me to let him in the entrance to "rob everybody", i had to punch him to knock him back and slammed the door and locked it.

[TaylorS]

If you read the shit Zimmerman apologists spew all over the internet they all but admit to SYG laws being a justification for shooting "scary black thugs". It's a perfect example of the difference between the literal letter of the law and the real social reality behind the law. SYG laws in present American society are inherently racist because when a white guy murders a black guy and claims "self defense" he is given the benefit of the doubt, while a black guy who does the same gets convicted. Thus SYG laws in reality about giving White people more leeway to "defend themselves" from Blacks.