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el_profe
13th January 2004, 19:02
I saw an interview with Irshad Manji, she wrote the book "The trouble with muslim" she is a muslim, and in her interview she said how some muslims have lied about what the Koran says. She also talked about how women and religion minorities are treated in the middle east. And she said " We(muslims) always point the finger to Israel and the USA but we never point the finger at ourselves" she also talked about how some muslims are tought to hate jews.
It was an interesting interview. She has a website http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/

This info is from her website, this is what the book is about:

It's an open letter

The Trouble with Islam is an open letter from me, a Muslim voice of reform, to concerned citizens worldwide -- Muslim and not. It's about why my faith community needs to come to terms with the diversity of ideas, beliefs and people in our universe, and why non-Muslims have a pivotal role in helping us get there.

The themes I'm exploring with the utmost honesty include:

the inferior treatment of women in Islam;
the Jew-bashing that so many Muslims persistently engage in; and
the continuing scourge of slavery in countries ruled by Islamic regimes.
I appreciate that every faith has its share of literalists. Christians have their Evangelicals. Jews have the ultra-Orthodox. For God's sake, even Buddhists have fundamentalists.

But what this book hammers home is that only in Islam is literalism mainstream.Which means that when abuse happens under the banner of Islam, most Muslims have no clue how to dissent, debate, revise or reform.

The Trouble with Islam shatters our silence. It shows Muslims how we can re-discover Islam's lost tradition of independent thinking -- a tradition known as "ijtihad" -- and re-discover it precisely to update Islam for the 21st century. The opportunity to update is especially available to Muslims in the West, because it's here that we enjoy precious freedoms to think, express, challenge and be challenged without fear of state reprisal. In that sense, the Islamic reformation begins in the West.

It doesn't, however, end here. Not by a long shot. People throughout the Islamic world need to know of their God-given right to think for themselves. So The Trouble with Islam outlines a global campaign to promote innovative approaches to Islam. I call this non-military campaign "Operation Ijtihad." In turn, the West's support of this campaign will fortify national security, making Operation Ijtihad a priority for all of us who wish to live fatwa-free lives.

That's the book. The question now becomes: What possessed me to write it? Once I tell you a little about me, I think you'll see where my own passion comes from.


Why I'm struggling with Islam

As refugees from Idi Amin's Uganda, my family and I settled just outside of Vancouver in 1972. I grew up attending two types of schools: the secular public school of most North American kids and then, for several hours at a stretch every Saturday, the Islamic religious school (madressa).

I couldn't quite reconcile the open and tolerant world of my public school with the rigid and bigoted world inside my madressa. But I had enough faith to ask questions -- plenty of them.

My first question for my madressa teacher was, "Why can't girls lead prayer?" I graduated to asking more nuanced questions, such as, "If the Koran came to Prophet Muhammad as a message of peace, why did he command his army to kill an entire Jewish tribe?"

You can imagine that such questions irritated the hell out of my madressa teacher, who routinely put down women and trashed the Jews. He and I reached the ultimate impasse over yet another question: "Where," I asked, "is the evidence of the 'Jewish conspiracy' against Islam? You love to talk about it, but what's the proof?" That question, posed at the age of 14, got me booted out of the madressa. Permanently.

At this point, I had a choice to make: I could walk away from my Muslim faith and get on with being my "emancipated" North American self, or I could give Islam another chance. Out of fairness to the faith, I gave Islam another chance. And another. And another. For the past 20 years, I've been educating myself about Islam. As a result, I've discovered a progressive side of my religion -- in theory.

But I remain a hugely ambivalent Muslim because of what's happening "on the ground" -- massive human rights violations, particularly against women and religious minorities -- in the name of Allah.

Liberal Muslims say that what I'm describing isn't "true" Islam. But these Muslims should own up to something: Prophet Muhammad himself said that religion is the way we conduct ourselves toward others. By that standard, how Muslims actually behave is Islam, and to sweep that reality under the rug of theory is to absolve ourselves of any responsibility for our fellow human beings.

That's why I'm struggling. That's why I'm passionate. And that leads me to what I consider to be the trouble with Islam.


The trouble with Islam is...

As I see it, the trouble with Islam is that individual lives are too small and the lies we tell to excuse that fact are too big. Neither has to be the case under a compassionate and merciful God, as Muslims like to describe Allah. The Trouble with Islam, then, is a plea for all of us, as citizens of the world, to help Islam fulfill its glorious humanitarian potential, so that we all gain in diversity, dignity and security.

At the beginning of my book, I call myself a "Muslim Refusenik". That doesn't mean I refuse to be a Muslim; it means that I refuse to join an army of automatons in the name of God.

In that spirit, I'm asking Muslims in the West a very basic question: Will we remain spiritually infantile, caving to cultural pressures to clam up and conform, or will we mature into full-fledged citizens, defending the very pluralism that allows us to be in this part of the world in the first place?

My question for non-Muslims is equally basic: Will you succumb to the intimidation of being called "racists," or will you finally challenge us Muslims to take responsibility for our role in what ails Islam?

The Trouble with Islam is a wake-up call for honesty and change on everybody's part. Through the book and this website, let's create conversations where none existed before.

Any thoughts?

redstar2000
13th January 2004, 19:14
I don't think any religion deserves "a second chance".

After she was kicked out of the Muslim school for asking "impertinent questions", she just should have walked away from that superstitious crap completely...and never looked back.

It's a sad story. If she ever returns to the Muslim world, they'll probably kill her.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

el_profe
13th January 2004, 19:27
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 08:14 PM
I don't think any religion deserves "a second chance".

After she was kicked out of the Muslim school for asking "impertinent questions", she just should have walked away from that superstitious crap completely...and never looked back.

It's a sad story. If she ever returns to the Muslim world, they'll probably kill her.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas
actually, she said that some muslim extremist want to kill her.

This is something i find most religious person's don know how to handle, when you ask them a tough question about the religion, they cant respond and in the end they just get mad at the person who asked the question.

Jesus Christ
13th January 2004, 19:28
Every religion needs a facelift, but absolutely not disposed of.

Intifada
13th January 2004, 19:34
this woman is a stupid idiot. the interview was on FOX news.

el profe, after your so called translation of the qur'an, you are in no position to say that islam is a bad religion.


"If the Koran came to Prophet Muhammad as a message of peace, why did he command his army to kill an entire Jewish tribe?"

wtf?!

el_profe
13th January 2004, 19:43
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 08:34 PM
this woman is a stupid idiot. the interview was on FOX news.

el profe, after your so called translation of the qur'an, you are in no position to say that islam is a bad religion.


"If the Koran came to Prophet Muhammad as a message of peace, why did he command his army to kill an entire Jewish tribe?"

wtf?!
Oh no, you saw the interview, I need to email her, her life is in danger, Ihatebush is after her :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why am i not surprised by your reactions, Why is she an idiot.

My transaltions on the koran, i got them from the internet. and in this article i did not put my opinion only what she said.

Why is she an idiot?

Intifada
13th January 2004, 19:46
ask her to give proof about the prophet muhammad commanding his army to kill an entire jewish tribe?

in fact the prophet actually respected jews more than anyone else. one day a dead jewish woman was being buried. the prophet muhammad payed his respects to her. when asked by abu bakr about why he did this as she was not a muslim he said, "is she not human?".

Intifada
13th January 2004, 19:47
My transaltions on the koran, i got them from the internet.

you could at least apologise for speaking bullshit about the islamic book.

el_profe
13th January 2004, 19:50
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 08:47 PM

My transaltions on the koran, i got them from the internet.

you could at least apologise for speaking bullshit about the islamic book.
NO, they where not my translations, get mad with the webpage that made the translations.

You think she is an idiot because of a quesiton she asked when she was a kid?
what if she was told(lied to) that muhamad wanted to kill the jews?

Intifada
13th January 2004, 19:52
NO, they where not my translations, get mad with the webpage that made the translations.


you were endorsing the translations as if they spoke truth.


what if she was told(lied to) that muhamad wanted to kill the jews?

then she was told bullshit.

el_profe
13th January 2004, 20:11
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 08:52 PM

what if she was told(lied to) that muhamad wanted to kill the jews?

then she was told bullshit.
yes, and she wants to fix that, so kids know the truth,

do you still think she is an idiot?

El Brujo
13th January 2004, 20:41
...and how is Jewish and Christian fundamentalism any less disgusting than Islamic fundamentalism?

el_profe
13th January 2004, 20:43
Originally posted by El [email protected] 13 2004, 09:41 PM
...and how is Jewish and Christian fundamentalism any less disgusting than Islamic fundamentalism?
did you even read the post? she is a muslim, who is your question directed to? :blink:

El Brujo
13th January 2004, 20:58
Originally posted by el_profe+Jan 14 2004, 05:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Jan 14 2004, 05:43 AM)
El [email protected] 13 2004, 09:41 PM
...and how is Jewish and Christian fundamentalism any less disgusting than Islamic fundamentalism?
did you even read the post? she is a muslim, who is your question directed to? :blink: [/b]
You. You moan about muslim fundamentalists and go on generalizing all muslims because of the actions of a few but then you support Jewish and Christian fundamentalism (ie: Israel).

Pete
13th January 2004, 21:03
She is a Muslim, but she is niether a theologian or a scholar of any credibility. Hell, she is just looking to make some noise. Her opinion should hold no weight, I will give you an independant critque of her books which proves her the fool she is.

A Multifaceted Fraud, Part 1 (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=4624)

A Multifaceted Fraud, Part 2 (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=4625)

Its very long, but as it is critiquing a book it should be. I hope you try to read it atleast, and if you do read it I hope it does not kill your eyes.

redstar2000
13th January 2004, 21:31
I read the review; she appears to be a very confused woman...getting some things right, here and there, and completely missing other (important) things altogether.

The reviewer&#39;s cynical explanation--she&#39;s not addressing Muslims at all; she&#39;s addressing anti-Muslims in the west--is not without appeal.

One wonders when the Arabic translation will appear...and where it will be published.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

el_profe
13th January 2004, 21:32
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 10:03 PM
She is a Muslim, but she is niether a theologian or a scholar of any credibility. Hell, she is just looking to make some noise. Her opinion should hold no weight, I will give you an independant critque of her books which proves her the fool she is.

A Multifaceted Fraud, Part 1 (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=4624)

A Multifaceted Fraud, Part 2 (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=4625)

Its very long, but as it is critiquing a book it should be. I hope you try to read it atleast, and if you do read it I hope it does not kill your eyes.
I read about half of the first page, and then glanced through the rest. The author definetly is against israel.

But are you going to say that in islamic countries, women are almsot seen and in some countries they are 2nd class citizens?

thei is alot of anti-semitism from muslims.

and if she was taught to hate hews, other are also learning that.

Germanator
13th January 2004, 21:44
The question is for El Profe.

Your position is that Islam is a "bad" religion. The question is how is fundamentalist Islam any different than fundamentalist Christianity, or Zionism? You could easily be kicked out of an Evangelical school, such as Bob Jones University, for listening to Rock and/or (for all the Simpsons fans) Roll music, even if it is Christian in nature.

Considering history (Christians in Islamic lands often faired better than Muslims in Christian lands; Saladin sparing Christian POWs as opposed to Richard the Lionheart brutally killing thousands in Jerusalem), you&#39;d have a difficult time proving that Islam is any "worse" a religion than any other, especially if you keep falling back on the most conservative of sects.

Vinny Rafarino
13th January 2004, 22:36
you could at least apologise for speaking bullshit about the islamic book.




Come on now Mr. I.H.B.


How can you possibly expect ANYONE to apologise for an archaic book of oppressive ramblings? Give me day or so and I will give you a translation to this useless pile of dogma that will knock your socks off. Mr. Profe may be a wanker however to break his balls rather than admit that Islam is a bunch of shite designed to decrease human independence and thought is ridiculous. Unless of course you live on Pluto. (not to even mention the absurd and archaic ideals towards the female sex)

Pete
14th January 2004, 00:11
Originally posted by el_profe+Jan 13 2004, 05:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Jan 13 2004, 05:32 PM)
[email protected] 13 2004, 10:03 PM
She is a Muslim, but she is niether a theologian or a scholar of any credibility. Hell, she is just looking to make some noise. Her opinion should hold no weight, I will give you an independant critque of her books which proves her the fool she is.

A Multifaceted Fraud, Part 1 (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=4624)

A Multifaceted Fraud, Part 2 (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=4625)

Its very long, but as it is critiquing a book it should be. I hope you try to read it atleast, and if you do read it I hope it does not kill your eyes.
I read about half of the first page, and then glanced through the rest. The author definetly is against israel.

But are you going to say that in islamic countries, women are almsot seen and in some countries they are 2nd class citizens?

thei is alot of anti-semitism from muslims.

and if she was taught to hate hews, other are also learning that. [/b]
I am not going to defend Islam, or any religion. The review is just saying that her writing is full of shit, and is not scholarly at all.

timbaly
14th January 2004, 00:47
It&#39;s a shame that this woman did not abandon islam after she realized its enormous hypocrisy. She should have realized that the fact that her religous teachers didn&#39;t answer her intelligent questions because they can not justify there position and have no way of proving other religous points. All they could have ever said is "just believe". Getting an answer such as "just believe" to your questions should have turned her off to religion right away since she was not willing to take "just believe me" as an answer pertaining to her questions about a jewish conspiracy. It&#39;s odd how she accepts religion without question but won&#39;t believe the opinions of others like her instructor without question, such is the strange mind of religous people.

I also find it a little odd that Mohammed would wish to kill a tribe of israel. Since jews and christians were not polytheistic they usually weren&#39;t persecuted to the extent of killing.

el_profe
14th January 2004, 01:37
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 10:44 PM
The question is for El Profe.

Your position is that Islam is a "bad" religion. The question is how is fundamentalist Islam any different than fundamentalist Christianity, or Zionism? You could easily be kicked out of an Evangelical school, such as Bob Jones University, for listening to Rock and/or (for all the Simpsons fans) Roll music, even if it is Christian in nature.

Considering history (Christians in Islamic lands often faired better than Muslims in Christian lands; Saladin sparing Christian POWs as opposed to Richard the Lionheart brutally killing thousands in Jerusalem), you&#39;d have a difficult time proving that Islam is any "worse" a religion than any other, especially if you keep falling back on the most conservative of sects.
I also think those christians that hate rock music are also crazy.
In another post I talked about how the catholic church persecuted so many people to "christianize) them, they did this to jews especially , also to protestans and muslims. They had the inquisition, the catholic church has been one of the most corrupt organizations. During their persecutions they would take away any property by jewish and it became the church&#39;s property. They also took the property away from normal people and accused them of being jewish to take away their possesions.
Then their have been scandal covered up about what the church has done with its money.

Also look at all they poses, or possesed, in altin america they use to and probablu still have alot of land. Look at the vatican, I mean just at how much was wasted on that place is hypocracy, that and the fact that priest(catholic priest) they molest children.

Pete:


I am not going to defend Islam, or any religion. The review is just saying that her writing is full of shit, and is not scholarly at all
yes, she is not a scholar, but dont tell me there is no truth to what she says. About the treatment of women and hating jews.

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr
14th January 2004, 01:39
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 04:14 PM
I don&#39;t think any religion deserves "a second chance".

After she was kicked out of the Muslim school for asking "impertinent questions", she just should have walked away from that superstitious crap completely...and never looked back.

It&#39;s a sad story. If she ever returns to the Muslim world, they&#39;ll probably kill her.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas
You are right, but religion shouldn&#39;t even get a first chance&#33; :ph34r: