North Korea strikes again

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/north-korea-leader-kim-jong-uns-2235131

How lovely:rolleyes:

[Stalinist Speaker]

anyone have the count how many times she has been executed?:lol::rolleyes:

[Rss]

>Mirror

>A source told The Chosun Ilbo: "They were executed with machine guns while the key members of the Unhasu Orchestra, Wangjaesan Light Band and Moranbong Band as well as the families of the victims looked on."

>It was also reported that the families of those killed are believed to have been sent to prison camps under North Korea's law of guilt by association

Sounds legit.

[ANTIFA GATE-9]

anyone have the count how many times she has been executed?:lol::rolleyes:

Meaning how many times she was shot or that she was sentenced to execution before?

[Goblin]

Wouldn´t surprise me if some people took this shit seriously.

[TheEmancipator]

Daily Mirror as a source? Really?

[ANTIFA GATE-9]

Wouldn´t surprise me if some people took this shit seriously.

So it's bullshit?

[Delenda Carthago]

So it's bullshit?
No. Its true. They eat their children, whats an execution?:thumbup1:

[Flying Purple People Eater]

>Mirror

>A source told The Chosun Ilbo: "They were executed with machine guns while the key members of the Unhasu Orchestra, Wangjaesan Light Band and Moranbong Band as well as the families of the victims looked on."

>It was also reported that the families of those killed are believed to have been sent to prison camps under North Korea's law of guilt by association

Sounds legit.

What makes it un-legit, if you don't mind me asking? N. Korea does have the same draconic guilt-by-association laws as China and Japan, after all.

[Rss]

What makes it un-legit, if you don't mind me asking? N. Korea does have the same draconic guilt-by-association laws as China and Japan, after all.

Well excuse me for being sceptical. Shitrags like Daily Mirror have well known histories putting up sensationalist bullshit stories. I'm not defending North Korea for having those guilt-by-association laws, but public execution with machine guns for porn sounds a bit wild, even for DPRK.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I was gonna quote the Telegraph but you have to subscribe. It's in quite a few news sources, not just the mirror.

There was another one last year, which I think was actually corroborated, about Kim Jong Un having the former military chief executed...by standing in a spot where a rocket was targeted to hit. Brutal!

[Goblin]

So it's bullshit?

Of course it´s bullshit dude. It`s such an outrageous claim. Sounds like something from a movie. Everything the western media says about the DPRK is bullshit. "Kim Jong-il claims to have invented the hamburger!", "Kim Jong-il kidnaps famous South Korean movie director to make Godzilla knock-off" and "North Koreans think that the Kims are Gods". The western media calls these claims "facts", even though theres no proof of it. They love to make their enemies look bad.

Hell, when Saddam Hussein was alive, there was a rumor that whenever the iraqi football team lost, Saddam would throw the players down in a lions den. Soon we will hear shit like this about Assad too.

Heres some true facts: Obama likes to murder little children in cold blood with drones, Bush and Obama are former coke heads and Clinton liked to fuck his secretary.

[Bronco]

Don't see why everyone is ranting on about the Mirror and the 'western media', you know these papers don't just make stories up themselves? They're relaying reports from Chinese and South Korean sources, specifically the Chosun Ilbo in the article in the OP

Not saying that makes it any more credible but the fact this story has been picked up by the Mirror isn't really relevant

[helot]

I wouldn't put it past the mirror to create a bullshit story tbh however as has been mentioned the mirror got it from Chosun Ilbo newspaper in S. Korea.

Here's their article about it from their english site.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2013/08/29/2013082901412.html



They got the news from sources in China apparently.

[RedBen]

I wouldn't put it past the mirror to create a bullshit story tbh however as has been mentioned the mirror got it from Chosun Ilbo newspaper in S. Korea.

Here's their article about it from their english site.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2013/08/29/2013082901412.html



They got the news from sources in China apparently
"bobby told susie, and susy told jimmy, and jimmy told sally and sally told me...":rolleyes:

[helot]

"bobby told susie, and susy told jimmy, and jimmy told sally and sally told me...":rolleyes:

hence my apparently but unlike some people in this thread i'm not going to flat out claim it cant be so or is so.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Of course it´s bullshit dude. It`s such an outrageous claim. Sounds like something from a movie. Everything the western media says about the DPRK is bullshit. "Kim Jong-il claims to have invented the hamburger!", "Kim Jong-il kidnaps famous South Korean movie director to make Godzilla knock-off" and "North Koreans think that the Kims are Gods". The western media calls these claims "facts", even though theres no proof of it. They love to make their enemies look bad.


It's actually confirmed that the DPRK makes outlandishly wild claims about the personal achievements of the Kims, and that the regime kidnapped Japanese citizens.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It's incredible that, on the one hand, people will believe ANYTHING negative written about western imperial countries, specifically the US, yet stories like this, which are often corroborated or come from multiple sources, are instantly dismissed as bullshit for no reason, it seems, other than pure ideology and denial.

It's really sad, actually. I really feel for people who are taken in by a cult that exists thousands of miles away from where they live, that they've experienced only through their keyboards.

[Comrade Jacob]

I'm not sure of the legitimacy of this.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

There's a certain attractiveness to cynicism in this regard - if one thinks that they're all bastards, then one day one might find themselves pleasantly surprised for once...

[robbo203]

"bobby told susie, and susy told jimmy, and jimmy told sally and sally told me...":rolleyes:

Well yes but we can all consult Bobby in this instance or at any rate Susie meaning http://english.chosun.com/site/data/...082901412.html rather than engage in Chinese whispers if you'll excuse the pun

It is a bit disturbing that people are all too willing to dismiss a story out of hand because its is mentioned in a rag like the Daily Mirror. It might be bullshit but then again it might not be. Pompously intoning that "western imperialist countries" always (really? always?) tell lies about the DPRK is frankly just not going to make it as evidence of bullshit in this case. We need to be a little more serious and objective about evidence-gathering and not just dismiss something out of hand because it comes from a source we dont like. There's far too much of this sort of thing going in Revleft. It does you no favours, credibilitywise

[adipocere]

It reminds me of Weekly World News
Small but crazed Dictator has his porn star mistress (as she clutches a bible) executed in public by a machine gun firing squad. Her family, after being forced to watch, is sent to a death camp. :laugh:

[Nancahuazu camp fun]

Would be funny if it wasn't possible it happened

[RedBen]

#1 Pompously intoning that "western imperialist countries" always (really? always?) tell lies about the DPRK is frankly just not going to make it as evidence of bullshit in this case.
#2 We need to be a little more serious and objective about evidence-gathering and not just dismiss something out of hand because it comes from a source we dont like.
#3 There's far too much of this sort of thing going in Revleft. It does you no favours, credibilitywise
point 1: i am not defending north korea as some shining beacon of socialism. i have no loyalty to them as i am an american with no experience or knowledge of them aside from the media and internet. i simply question some of the outlandish things i hear about any country the us doesn't like. the us doesn't always lie, but they do lie alot.
point 2: i know nothing about this media outlet, there is no bias from me, but i fail to see "evidence" presented, maybe i misread something though. i accept evidence.
point 3: i am not looking to see how much internet credibility i can build with complete strangers, most of whom i will never meet, i am simply giving my opinion. it being that if someone hears something from someone who heard something from someone who heard something, it does not mean absolute unequivocal evidence in my mind. i accept the following forms of payment: video/audio footage, confirmed family statement, or anything substantial.

[Nancahuazu camp fun]

point 1: i am not defending north korea as some shining beacon of socialism. i have no loyalty to them as i am an american with no experience or knowledge of them aside from the media and internet. i simply question some of the outlandish things i hear about any country the us doesn't like. the us doesn't always lie, but they do lie alot.
point 2: i know nothing about this media outlet, there is no bias from me, but i fail to see "evidence" presented, maybe i misread something though. i accept evidence.
point 3: i am not looking to see how much internet credibility i can build with complete strangers, most of whom i will never meet, i am simply giving my opinion. it being that if someone hears something from someone who heard something from someone who heard something, it does not mean absolute unequivocal evidence in my mind. i accept the following forms of payment: video/audio footage, confirmed family statement, or anything substantial.

Not sure about the OP's source (I didn't click it), but I have seen it "reported" (kind of hard to confirm a story coming out of North Korean) on other sites since this morning.

I think it was originally posted here: Chosun

Other websites picked the story up.

[robbo203]

point 1: i am not defending north korea as some shining beacon of socialism. i have no loyalty to them as i am an american with no experience or knowledge of them aside from the media and internet. i simply question some of the outlandish things i hear about any country the us doesn't like. the us doesn't always lie, but they do lie alot.
point 2: i know nothing about this media outlet, there is no bias from me, but i fail to see "evidence" presented, maybe i misread something though. i accept evidence.
point 3: i am not looking to see how much internet credibility i can build with complete strangers, most of whom i will never meet, i am simply giving my opinion. it being that if someone hears something from someone who heard something from someone who heard something, it does not mean absolute unequivocal evidence in my mind. i accept the following forms of payment: video/audio footage, confirmed family statement, or anything substantial.


Thats all fair enough. My point is simply that one should not just dismiss - or, indeed, accept - evidence merely because of the source in question. The problem is that a lot of people on Revleft seem to do this quite a lot unfortunately and it irritates me and no doubt others too. It is a way of evading argument and not looking at things objectively. Comrade X points out that Comrade Y has just cited some right wing trashy journal in support of some contentious conclusion . That journal is obvious a bourgeoois reactionary journal and therefore as far X is concerned such evidence totally lacks any credence. End of argument. No serious attempt is made to weigh up the evidence in question. Because it comes from a reactionary source it is dismissed oiut of hand. It becomes an excuse for not having to weigh up the evidence. In short, for being irrational



The arrogance of such a standpoint is frankly breathtaking when you think about it. As far as comrade X is concerned he or she is the sole arbiter of THE TRUTH. In his or her black-or-white view of the world, you have the truth on one side and only lies and deception on the other. This is not the way to grow in our understanding of the world around is. I have crossed swords many times in my life with conservative rightwingers and though I might abhor their political outlook I recognise that they have not always wrong and by the same token I recognise that I have not always been right. I will continue making mistakes but I hope I will continue learning from my mistakes. Our political opponents are precisely those who are best able to identify our mistakes


No one is perfect. No one is privy to the whole truth to the exclusion of everyone else. My pleas is simply that we should be openminded enough to consider what people are saying rather than just who they are. There is a word for the latter and its called "prejudice" - prejudging people or indeed the sources they quote.

[adipocere]

The only thing breathtaking about this how willing people are to unquestioningly believe shock stories printed in tabloids.

[robbo203]

The only thing breathtaking about this how willing people are to unquestioningly believe shock stories printed in tabloids.

Unquestioning disbelief is as much to be deplored as unquestioning belief

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Well yes but we can all consult Bobby in this instance or at any rate Susie meaning http://english.chosun.com/site/data/...082901412.html rather than engage in Chinese whispers if you'll excuse the pun

It is a bit disturbing that people are all too willing to dismiss a story out of hand because its is mentioned in a rag like the Daily Mirror.

Chosun is a south-corean right-wing shitrag that has a journalistic integrity perhaps lower than the Mirror... so...

[Zealot]

Why the hell should I give them the benefit of the doubt when previous sensational stories have also been shown to be complete and utter bullshit? There are real criticisms of North Korea to be made but right-wing fictions are not them. I mean, the Mirror? Are you for fucking real?

[robbo203]

Chosun is a south-corean right-wing shitrag that has a journalistic integrity perhaps lower than the Mirror... so...

So what? Does that necessarily make this particular claim factually incorrect. Where is your evidence to discount this claim or do you consider that just becuase "Chosun is a south-corean right-wing shitrag" that anything and everything it says must ipso facto be incorrect. You are illustrating precisely the point I made earlier

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The only thing breathtaking about this how willing people are to unquestioningly believe shock stories printed in tabloids.

Nobody is unquestioningly believing anything.

But it's funny how some can so unquestionably not believe the same things, without any better sources to back up their arguments.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

So what? Does that necessarily make this particular claim factually incorrect. Where is your evidence to discount this claim or do you consider that just becuase "Chosun is a south-corean right-wing shitrag" that anything and everything it says must ipso facto be incorrect. You are illustrating precisely the point I made earlier

It's good reason to be doubtful about its veracity, however. I think everyone here, or at least the vast majority (unless you are like Maoist Rebel News) not very trusting of official DPRK news announcements. There's no reason to be any more trusting of the SK propaganda rags. They are no more above fabricating stories or paying people for sensational rubbish than the DPRK media, especially if it involves the DPRK. The quality of facts in anything involving DPRK (either from the DPRK itself or from others on the DPRK) tend to be... rather muddled and dubious at best. It's best to assume all is lies, whatever side it comes out of.

[Rss]

^ Didn't S. Korea arrest some leftist politicians for attempting "a left wing coup"?


The only thing breathtaking about this how willing people are to unquestioningly believe shock stories printed in tabloids.

It's even more breathtaking how readily liberals are cheerleading imperialist agenda when it comes to sensationalist journalism like this.

[Dagoth Ur]

It's depressing to see Marxists join hands with imperialists against Korea. That they're so eager to believe trash like this is pretty gross.

Oppressed Proles stick together, we don't parrot our Oppressor's rhetoric.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

It's depressing to see Marxists join hands with imperialists against Korea. That they're so eager to believe trash like this is pretty gross.

Oppressed Proles stick together, we don't parrot our Oppressor's rhetoric.

How is this dude an "oppressed prole"?

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02100/Kim-jong-un_2100220a.jpg

[Stalinist Speaker]

this isn't the first time that its been reported that she has been executed, it has happen a lot of times in the past.

[Dagoth Ur]

Because, clearly, imperialists getting rid of the Kim's would leave the worker's of Korea untouched. The regime in Pyongyang is abysmal and if Korea wasn't under constant threat of death and neoliberal human degradation we could realistically discuss their removal. However it's not really our choice. The majority of North Koreans keep the military in power because they're acutely aware of the danger local and international predatory powers pose.

I stand in solidarity with the workers of Korea and their resistance to foreign coercion, not with any particular leader.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

^ Didn't S. Korea arrest some leftist politicians for attempting "a left wing coup"?

I remember reading that the leader of a Trot reformist party there got arrested for a month for putting a joke about Kim Jong Un on his twitter page.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Because, clearly, imperialists getting rid of the Kim's would leave the worker's of Korea untouched. The regime in Pyongyang is abysmal and if Korea wasn't under constant threat of death and neoliberal human degradation we could realistically discuss their removal. However it's not really our choice. The majority of North Koreans keep the military in power because they're acutely aware of the danger local and international predatory powers pose.

I stand in solidarity with the workers of Korea and their resistance to foreign coercion, not with any particular leader.

hahahaha, so you've got sources that back up that the people of Korea support their current Juche system, then?

Or is this just mindless, ideological, non-sensical bluster?

[Dagoth Ur]

Nobody rules anywhere without the support (really more like consent) of the majority. The problem is most majorities are as ignorant of this fact as you yourself seem to be.

That said support for a government isn't a reason we should support something by itself. But when that support is for a proletariat living in a centralized economy (as deformed as it may be) who is under threat of the advances of several imperialist powers, it takes on a whole new light. This is support not for the Kim's but for the stability of the regime and hopes that it can protect the Korean workers.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Unquestioning disbelief is as much to be deplored as unquestioning belief

In the absence of satisfactory evidence, disbelief is the only appropriate response, especially since there is a clear motive for spreading disinformation about the DPR Korea. I mean, would you chide people for not believing in Bat Boy? Come, now.

[Brotto Rühle]

Glorious comrade, dear leader of democratic Korea and the working people's of democratic Korea, would never harm a fly! His majestic nature is such that, as he discovered the existence of Unicorns, he decided that he should run in democratic Korea's glorious workers councils...by god, he was elected! To defend the workers state is his cause! Thank you, workers of Korea, for ELECTING yet another Kim to be your prole dictator.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Nobody rules anywhere without the support (really more like consent) of the majority.

Every non-presidential system in the world either has rigged elections (for example North Korea, where 99.9% of the population has supported the government for decades, apparently), or the ruling government only has the support of a minority (for example the UK).

And even in Presidential systems, unless everyone is forced to vote, it's rare that a real majority of the population has voted for the winning candidate.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Nobody rules anywhere without the support (really more like consent) of the majority.

Are you shitting me.

I guess, by your logic, the slave-labourers that make up 50% of Qatar's population support the government, hmm?

Complacency is not support for heavens' sake. not to mention your simplistic analysis completely ignores the extremely broad control the DPRK government has over social life in general.


This is support not for the Kims but for the stability of the regime and hopes that it can protect the Korean workers.

You mean like the korean workers in Siberian labour camps who work in terrible conditions and watch indoctrination videos every day of every month of every year for seven years until their contract ends, leaving them with only just enough money to feed their family?

Support the workers of N. Korea, not the DPRK or America/South Korea's monstrous schemes for Haiti-level 'cheap labour' exploitation if they take it over.

[robbo203]

It's depressing to see Marxists join hands with imperialists against Korea. That they're so eager to believe trash like this is pretty gross.

Oppressed Proles stick together, we don't parrot our Oppressor's rhetoric.


Actually, the only legitimate Marxist position is to say loudly and clearly - A PLAGUE ON BOTH YOUR HOUSES! What is really depressing is to see so called "Marxists" rallying to the support of an oppresive and viciously anti-working class regime led by a scumbag by the name of Kim just because it is opposed by another regime led by another scumbag called Obama. FFS. When is the lesson going to be learnt. The enemy of an enemy is not necessarily your friend.


If you care about the north Korean workers or indeed the American workers - and as workers we have more in common with each other wherever we live than with our respective ruling classes - then dont give your support to either regime. To hell with both of them

[adipocere]

Are you shitting me.

I guess, by your logic, the slave-labourers that make up 50% of Qatar's population support the government, hmm?

Complacency is not support for heavens' sake. not to mention your simplistic analysis completely ignores the extremely broad control the DPRK government has over social life in general.

You mean like the korean workers in Siberian labour camps who work in terrible conditions and watch indoctrination videos every day of every month of every year for seven years until their contract ends, leaving them with only just enough money to feed their family?

Support the workers of N. Korea, not the DPRK or America/South Korea's monstrous schemes for Haiti-level 'cheap labour' exploitation if they take it over.

I get the feeling that none of you (myself included) really know anything about N. Korea. I might be wrong, but "experts" on N. Korea are in short supply. Sure you can look at it's Wikipedia and get the CIA World Fact Book "deluxe" summary, you can repeat ad nausem shit from various "human rights" organizations about how not "free" they are - but none of us really know.

So statements like that above are speculating - it's like when it comes to N. Korea all your subconscious anti-communist indoctrination kicks in. Here, let me replace a few words in part of the comment:


You mean like the Cuban workers in Caribbean labour camps who work in terrible conditions and watch indoctrination videos every day of every month of every year for seven years until their contract ends, leaving them with only just enough money to feed their family?

Support the workers of Cuba, not the PCC or America's monstrous schemes for Haiti-level 'cheap labour' exploitation if they take it over.


Really - it's like the crap they tell you in grade school. It sounds exactly the same.

[robbo203]

In the absence of satisfactory evidence, disbelief is the only appropriate response, especially since there is a clear motive for spreading disinformation about the DPR Korea. I mean, would you chide people for not believing in Bat Boy? Come, now.

Er, not quite the same thing, is it though? Bat Boy - I assume you mean "Batman" or possibly "Robin" - is a fictional character. This woman who was the ex girlfriend of Kim was a real person. There is thus at least the possibility of an empirical basis upon which to judge the veracity of the claim that she was executed. For instance, Kim himself might do himself a great favour by presenting the person in question to the world's assembled media . He can thus relish the prospect of the Daily Mirror and other assorted rags having to wipe the egg of their blushing faces. One wonders why he has not done so already? Indeed. talking of motives, the prospect of having been shown to have got it so stupendously wrong and looking utterly foolish in the process, would if anything provide the press with some reason to be cautious. Yes, of course the press is biassed but would they really be that stupid as to publish something for which they did not believe there was any evidence whatsoever. Personally I doubt it ...

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Er, not quite the same thing, is it though? Bat Boy - I assume you mean "Batman" or possibly "Robin" - is a fictional character. This woman who was the ex girlfriend of Kim was a real person. There is thus at least the possibility of an empirical basis upon which to judge the veracity of the claim that she was executed. For instance, Kim himself might do himself a great favour by presenting the person in question to the world's assembled media . He can thus relish the prospect of the Daily Mirror and other assorted rags having to wipe the egg of their blushing faces. One wonders why he has not done so already? Indeed. talking of motives, the prospect of having been shown to have got it so stupendously wrong and looking utterly foolish in the process, would if anything provide the press with some reason to be cautious. Yes, of course the press is biassed but would they really be that stupid as to publish something for which they did not believe there was any evidence whatsoever. Personally I doubt it ...

Why would they care? They don't really need evidence, all they need is testimony, which may or may not be well-founded, and may or may not be simply incoherent rumours. This is especially true for a place so secluded and "mysterious" as the DPRK, where the truth is fluid to say the least. There is good reason to be cautious about any information from or about the place.

I otherwise I agree with your points, pox on both their houses, etc.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Er, not quite the same thing, is it though? Bat Boy - I assume you mean "Batman" or possibly "Robin" - is a fictional character.

No, I mean Bat Boy, mutant, political activist and media celebrity, who showed up in the Weekly World News from time to time.


This woman who was the ex girlfriend of Kim was a real person. There is thus at least the possibility of an empirical basis upon which to judge the veracity of the claim that she was executed. For instance, Kim himself might do himself a great favour by presenting the person in question to the world's assembled media . He can thus relish the prospect of the Daily Mirror and other assorted rags having to wipe the egg of their blushing faces. One wonders why he has not done so already?

I imagine he doesn't read, or care about, South Korean tabloids. I mean, what sort of attitude is this? Charges against him have been made without any evidence, so he is guilty until he proves that he is innocent?


Indeed. talking of motives, the prospect of having been shown to have got it so stupendously wrong and looking utterly foolish in the process, would if anything provide the press with some reason to be cautious. Yes, of course the press is biassed but would they really be that stupid as to publish something for which they did not believe there was any evidence whatsoever. Personally I doubt it ...

Does anyone still remember Nayirah? You know, the Kuwaiti nurse who claimed that Iraqi soldiers threw Kuwaiti babies out of incubators? Whose testimony was not subsequently corroborated by anything? Who turned out to be the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I think the point that she's a famous woman in the DPRK, and is someone who, if alive, is liable to appear in North Korean media, makes it a very bad lie for a tabloid to make. That doesn't make it true, but as far as claims about North Korea goes, this is something which could be disproven.

One thing which MAY be on public record is whether or not this is actually something which can be officially punishable by death. Whether or not this lady was executed, even the legal right of the state to do so is terrible.

[Sendo]

Trust nothing by Chosun Ilbo or anything that sources them. They're the Fox News of South Korea.

Hankyoreh/Hani is quite good and has an English site but nowhere near the advertising budget.

MBN and even Dong-A are preferable to Chosun. Utter garbage. Fascist, war-hawkish, extremely racist to foreigners (including whites though they lick the boots of Yankee imperialist soldiers).

Yonhap is like their version of AP but with its own site and news channel.

Also avoid Joong-ang.

[robbo203]

I imagine he doesn't read, or care about, South Korean tabloids. I mean, what sort of attitude is this? Charges against him have been made without any evidence, so he is guilty until he proves that he is innocent?

But thats the point isint it? He can easily prove his innocence by presenting in person the person he is supposed to have executed. Why hasnt he? Unless she really was executed - which is a possibility (though I remain agnostic in this matter). After all, he might not read South Korean Tabloids but this story seems to have gone global. I cant believe a vainglorious bastard of the likes of Kim is not concerned with his image both at home and abroad . Think of the propaganda value to the regime of exposing western propagated lies for what they are. This would be the obvious thing to do if in fact they are lies in this case.


The converse of this argument of course is that western media would not want to expose themselves to the risk of looking completely foolish by publishing something for which they had absolutely no evidence whatsoever. They would want to cover themselves by recourse to some evidence, however feeble, in the event that the story proved false. Some western editors and journalists may be conniving manipulative bastards with an axe to griind but they are not necessarily dumb




Does anyone still remember Nayirah? You know, the Kuwaiti nurse who claimed that Iraqi soldiers threw Kuwaiti babies out of incubators? Whose testimony was not subsequently corroborated by anything? Who turned out to be the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador?


Yeah but this is not quite the same set up. The lack of evidence to corroborate her claim does not necessarily mean that the claim is untrue - at least in theory - though legally, of course, the lack of such evidence would acquit the Iraqi soliders in question if it ever came to court. However, for Kim it would be necessarily untrue that he had had his ex girlfriend executed if he could show her off in person in front of the world's media. A not insignificant difference

[Dagoth Ur]

Nobody can rule if you don't listen to them. When the people are divided or refuse to follow the leadership crumbles. It doesn't stay more stable than any other single socialist state.

Also lets be clear I don't support the ruling regime of the DPRK because they are opposed to the US. I'm not some lame liberal who operates in such a blanket way. The distinction can easily be drawn here between Iran and the DPRK. The first deserves support in its effort to protect itself from imperialism but still clearl needs a violent revolution to put the workers in charge. The second also deserves support because they are the only thing inbetween imperialism and the Korean Worker's state but the deformed nature of things must be handled when Korean workers aren't so imperiled. The Korean Worker's state is a valuable achievement that cannot be sacrificed (military and bureaucrats are proletarian bro) or else you aim to visit post-USSR style misery on the Korean people.

[Red_Banner]

I'm not a fan of the "DPRK" being that they abandoned Marxism-Leninism in favour of that Juche crap and their hereditary patriarchy, but the capitalist media spreads alot of crap about them.

[Brotto Rühle]

Nobody can rule if you don't listen to them. When the people are divided or refuse to follow the leadership crumbles. It doesn't stay more stable than any other single socialist state.

Also lets be clear I don't support the ruling regime of the DPRK because they are opposed to the US. I'm not some lame liberal who operates in such a blanket way. The distinction can easily be drawn here between Iran and the DPRK. The first deserves support in its effort to protect itself from imperialism but still clearl needs a violent revolution to put the workers in charge. The second also deserves support because they are the only thing inbetween imperialism and the Korean Worker's state but the deformed nature of things must be handled when Korean workers aren't so imperiled. The Korean Worker's state is a valuable achievement that cannot be sacrificed (military and bureaucrats are proletarian bro) or else you aim to visit post-USSR style misery on the Korean people.
There is no workers state in North Korea.

[Red_Banner]

Exactly!

They abandonded marxism-leninism when they were under no pressure to do so.

Maoism was still alive in China and the Warsaw pact didn't collapse yet.

They copped out early on.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

The character of a state is determined by the relations of production, not by the ideology.

[Red_Banner]

"relations of production"

What relations then?

North Korea has no Internationalist policy of uniting the workers of the World.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

That's because the political power is held by a reactionary bureaucratic caste. But who owns the means of production? It seems to me that the proletariat does, through the state which retains a proletarian character even though this character is distorted by a special layer of bureaucrats, party functionaries and military officers. Any other theory - Shachtmanism, "state capitalism" a la Cliff, Landy or Mao - all of them are problematic.

[RedHal]

I remember reading that the leader of a Trot reformist party there got arrested for a month for putting a joke about Kim Jong Un on his twitter page.

No, they just arrested top officials of the opposition Unified Progressive Party (UPP), accusing them of planning an armed revolt against the ROK government :laugh:

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/08/30/kore-a30.html

Nothing like sensationalist bullshit about the North to distract the public about the abuses of the right wing ROK government. If you don't know, the current president of the south is Park Geun-Hye, the daughter of the US backed dictator Park Chung Hee.

[Hiero]

I don't think people correctly examinedthe news reports. there is no evidence, and the article by cousin does not name it's source, it just says "the source". At this point nothing is verifiable, and it it's sloppy journalism to portray this as confirmed fact.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

So statements like that above are speculating - it's like when it comes to N. Korea all your subconscious anti-communist indoctrination kicks in. Here, let me replace a few words in part of the comment:



Really - it's like the crap they tell you in grade school. It sounds exactly the same.

It's actually confirmed however that the DPRK sends its workers to work slave-wage conditions for Russian logging firms in Siberia.


That's because the political power is held by a reactionary bureaucratic caste. But who owns the means of production? It seems to me that the proletariat does, through the state which retains a proletarian character even though this character is distorted by a special layer of bureaucrats, party functionaries and military officers. Any other theory - Shachtmanism, "state capitalism" a la Cliff, Landy or Mao - all of them are problematic.

What does it actually look like, politically and economically, when the proletariat actually controls the means of production? Would it look like the DPRK? I doubt it. Surplus value is distributed by bureaucrats and military officials who are not accountable to the working class, hence the working class does not in any substantive sense "own" the means of production. You have said in previous discussions on this topic that value does not move in North Korea the way it would in a bourgeois economy - ok, well then what would the movement of goods and labor look like in a Proletarian society? How can the proletariat really control the means of production in a meaningful sense when it lacks political control over the body which determines the legal nature of property and its distribution?

[Red_Banner]

"It's actually confirmed however that the DPRK sends its workers to work slave-wage conditions for Russian logging firms in Siberia."

But recently Russia let North Korea off the hook for a lot of debt because they are putting a pipeline through North Korea to sell fuel to South Korea.

So there may be less of that.

[MarxSchmarx]

Glorious comrade, dear leader of democratic Korea and the working people's of democratic Korea, would never harm a fly! His majestic nature is such that, as he discovered the existence of Unicorns, he decided that he should run in democratic Korea's glorious workers councils...by god, he was elected! To defend the workers state is his cause! Thank you, workers of Korea, for ELECTING yet another Kim to be your prole dictator.
OK, I get it. Consider this a verbal warning for pointless hystrionics that cross the line into trolling.

[robbo203]

That's because the political power is held by a reactionary bureaucratic caste. But who owns the means of production? It seems to me that the proletariat does, through the state which retains a proletarian character even though this character is distorted by a special layer of bureaucrats, party functionaries and military officers. Any other theory - Shachtmanism, "state capitalism" a la Cliff, Landy or Mao - all of them are problematic.

In what sense does the proletariat own the means of production in North korea or anywhere else for that matter? The fact that they have to exchange their labour power for a wage (and a pittance at that) is proof positive of their alienation from the means of production as any marxist would tell you. In other words their non-ownership of the means of production. Thats what defines them as a proletariat in the first place - the non owning wage slave majority. A proletarian is by definition a non-owner and a proletariat that owns is no longer a proletariat


Those who own the means of production in this case are precisely those who wield power - the bureaucratic caste (or rather class). They dont own these means as private individuals but as a class. Why? Because utimate control is precisely the same thing as de facto ownership., In asserting their ultimate control over the means of production via their stranglehold on the state they are exercising their collective class ownership of these means.

[Os Cangaceiros]

"Kim Jong-il kidnaps famous South Korean movie director to make Godzilla knock-off"

That one actually happened.

[Brotto Rühle]

Trotskyists and Stalinists have no comprehension of Marx's critique of political economy. Classes are determined by the relations to the means of production - I.e. in North Korea, the state acts as national capitalist, owning/managing/controlling the means of production. This means that the working class is alienated from it's product/labor/the means of production. The law of value still exists in North Korea, the law of value is specifically a capitalistic thing. MCM' still exists.

Stop kidding yourselves with the absurd notions of socialism, dotp, or dws in North Korea. Get real. You're a depressing lot of apologists for capitalist tyranny.

[Delenda Carthago]

But, we are missing the point here:
This thing, which I remind has as a source a small South Korean newspaper, has 20.000.000 answers on Google.

The world "imperialism", during the time that a new war is about to start, has 8.000.000, only 40% of the first one.


Whoever thinks this happened without intervention from the System, raise their hands.

[Dagoth Ur]

There is no workers state in North Korea.
There is no bourgeoisie in North Korea. The DPRK cannot be classified as any other thing than a worker's state.


What does it actually look like, politically and economically, when the proletariat actually controls the means of production? Would it look like the DPRK? I doubt it.
Not all worker's states are perfect anymore than all capitalist states are. The DPRK is what a worker's state looks like when it gets forced through Japanese occupation, American occupation, then 30% of their people being killed in the last war, and finished off with the constant threat of eradication from many NATO powers. It's a shit situation all around but the Korean revolution succeeded in socializing property even if power was retained by elite workers. And, of course, being elite isn't what makes you bourgeoisie.


Surplus value is distributed by bureaucrats and military officials who are not accountable to the working class, hence the working class does not in any substantive sense "own" the means of production.
Except the reap the benefits of it daily. It's only because of the system in Korea that everything is maintained and all services rendered. The crippling sanctions on the DPRK would have killed several lesser capitalist nations decades ago.


How can the proletariat really control the means of production in a meaningful sense when it lacks political control over the body which determines the legal nature of property and its distribution?
Because the proletarian, not the bourgeoisie, gets the benefits of social control of the mop. And not every prole will control the MoP ever. That's nuts.

Also power centralization is a direct result of seventy years of war.

[synthesis]

And, of course, being elite isn't what makes you bourgeoisie.

No, owning the means of production is what does that.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

There is no bourgeoisie in North Korea. The DPRK cannot be classified as any other thing than a worker's state.


Is the proletariat alienated from the means of production and surplus value? Yes. The fact that the proletariat even exists as a class in the DPRK shows that to be so - there is no actual "proletariat" as a distinct group in a classless society.



Not all worker's states are perfect anymore than all capitalist states are. The DPRK is what a worker's state looks like when it gets forced through Japanese occupation, American occupation, then 30% of their people being killed in the last war, and finished off with the constant threat of eradication from many NATO powers. It's a shit situation all around but the Korean revolution succeeded in socializing property even if power was retained by elite workers. And, of course, being elite isn't what makes you bourgeoisie.


The ruling class in the DPRK are not "elite workers". The ruling regime might present themselves as "more equal proletarians" but that is not the case. They are those who alienate the workers from the means of production, thus are no longer themselves "workers".



Except the reap the benefits of it daily. It's only because of the system in Korea that everything is maintained and all services rendered. The crippling sanctions on the DPRK would have killed several lesser capitalist nations decades ago.


They reap the benefits ... of famine and impoverishment? This is a country with a GDP per capita lower than that of the poorest Capitalist states. To support these "services" (which are quite vast for the ruling elites and quite limited for the rural peasants) they sell arms to repressive dictatorships (such as helping Mugabe wipe out ethnic groups which opposed his rule) and send workers to labor for private capital in other countries with the government receiving payments for the labor of workers.



Because the proletarian, not the bourgeoisie, gets the benefits of social control of the mop. And not every prole will control the MoP ever. That's nuts.


Uh, in the Commune the means of production are shared by all workers. Anything else is not a commune. You may think that's "nuts" but it shows that you (as well as the leaders of the DPRK) don't understand communism. The whole point of the commune is that the workers are not alienated from the means of production, and thus anyone managing these means of production are directly accountable to the public.



Also power centralization is a direct result of seventy years of war.

And a direct result of that power centralization is a negation of worker's power in anything but the most idealist sense.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Stop kidding yourselves with the absurd notions of socialism, dotp, or dws in North Korea. Get real. You're a depressing lot of apologists for capitalist tyranny.

So apologetic are the adherents to the deformed workers' state theory that we also advocate the overthrow of the tyranny in those countries through political revolution by the proletariat? That is not apologism for tyranny in any way.

[greenforest]

Well excuse me for being sceptical. Shitrags like Daily Mirror have well known histories putting up sensationalist bullshit stories. I'm not defending North Korea for having those guilt-by-association laws, but public execution with machine guns for porn sounds a bit wild, even for DPRK.

The source was a Chinese paper that was picked up by Western media.