Impressions of the Socialist Equality Party

[Tolstoy]

Ive been looking ito the Socialist Equality Party, but it looks a bit namby pamby for a slightly more hardcore Trotskyist. What exactly do they stand for, and what are they most know for? Im basically just looking to learn more about this party than whats on wikipedia

[Consistent.Surprise]

Welp, their beloved David North is CEO of Grand River Printing & Imaging, which is a non-union shop.

[Kassad]

The Socialist Equality Party (SEP) are world-historic political bandits. To be brief, they are the descendents of the political line of Gerry Healy, who basically puckered up to Arab nationalism in the interest of lining his pockets. His organization was notorious for literally assaulting political opponents and masquerading as orthodox Trotskyist. Not only that, but they were quick to hail the Ayatollahs in Iran in 1979.

These days, they're run by David North (who's real name is David Green), who manages a non-union printing shop, which is in line with their claim that labor unions are thoroughly reactionary and must be destroyed. What a coincidence. They're nothing but fucking scabs.

They also claim that the liberal-backed Civil Rights Movement in the 1960's ended racial oppression in the United States and that the brutal murder of Trayvon Martin had nothing to do with race.

These days, North masquerades as a scholar defending the legacy of Leon Trotsky from bourgeois and academic slander. When it comes to the class struggle, the Northites are best at flying away. Their organization has receded to the internet in the hopes that they'll somehow build the vanguard that way.

For more on this, I recommend just doing a search for the SEP/WSWS with the term "cult" to read the endless accounts of political banditry that their organization has taken part in for quite some time. But in my opinion, the Internationalist Group sums up their anti-communism in this article: http://www.internationalist.org/wherewasdavidnorth.html

[Dr Doom]

Welp, their beloved David North is CEO of Grand River Printing & Imaging, which is a non-union shop.

aren't his employees all members of the party? shit is crazy.

also not to mention he was a leading member of a tendency that gathered info on iraqi communists and passed it on to saddam in exchange for a shit load of cash , resulting in the deaths of said communists.

but they have a nice website :rolleyes:

[Glitchcraft]

They are a ridiculous cult. I've talked to them several times. I started reading their Heritage Lost or whatever it's called but thought sticking pencils in my eyes was more productive. All my information on them comes from the multiple times I've talked to them at demos. Too many times.

David North is literally the Bourgeoisie.
He owns the means of production.
How the fuck are you going to have a Trot, Boss, Chairman, owner?

The anti union stance is ridiculous.
They say the Unions are corrupt and need to be immediately disbanded in order to have revolutionary progress. This is an outrageous affront to many of the workers of Michigan whose unions control their pensions and health benefits. The Iron Workers, Bricklayers, Carpenters etc locals are the ones who set the safety standards on the job. Their pension and medical benefits are administrated by union offices. It's not hard to see that Non union construction sites are far more dangerous, far more life threatening. Just count the deaths.

They're across the board abandonment of all unions is absolutely horrible. It demonstrates a total misunderstanding of the role unions have. Not surprising since there are no Iron workers, Teamsters, Pipe-fitters or Longshoremen that are in the SEP, primarily students from Wayne State and UofM.
How beneficial to David North that not one union stands up to his scrutiny and he can run his means of production unhindered by pesky organized labour.

Any look at their history shows that North is no different from the Healyites that they descend from.

[Glitchcraft]

Every time I see these jerk off, pretentious college kids show up at a labor event I just wish the Sparticist League was there to obnoxiously yell at them (you know since that's all they do) :)

[blake 3:17]

I was deeply irritated by one of their folks telling me I was the vanguard of the revolution while I was on strike. Was walking with a red diaper friend and we were both "yeah we know" - poor guy was thrown off script so bad -

Don't like being talked down to that way. Proles is dumb, except when we smarter than you. One shouldn't approach a picket line expecting a Trot and Stalinist marching together, but...

[Martin Blank]

Grand River Printing began as the money-making print shop for the Workers League (now the SEP) back in the 1970s. It was never a unionized shop, even when the WL was big on union activity and was vehemently calling for a labor party based on the unions. I guess they didn't want to have to worry about The Bulletin not being printed in case of a strike.

But this is nothing compared to their gangsterism. When the WL/SEP is losing a political argument, the odds are that they will end it by physically attacking whomever it is they are debating. I've seen them do it twice. They also get rather physical with people from other organizations who try to attend their meetings.

[Le Socialiste]

I had the misfortune of being followed home by a new-ish member of the SEP one day after a coalition meeting. We stood outside my building for nearly 2 1/2 hours and me, being the nice guy that I am, humored him for much of it. I don't know why I did it - guess I thought I could dissuade him from becoming an actual member of that awful party (to no avail).

He was nice enough, but kind of strange. He'd get this wild, crazy look in his eyes whenever he talked. Scared the shit out of me...

[Glitchcraft]

But this is nothing compared to their gangsterism. When the WL/SEP is losing a political argument, the odds are that they will end it by physically attacking whomever it is they are debating. I've seen them do it twice. They also get rather physical with people from other organizations who try to attend their meetings.

Lol, yes. I've had them try and get big on me a few times. Although I usually have a "cmon bring it" attitude with them. At a rally or demo you should make sure some guys in hard hats know their union position and their propensity for violence. I've convinced Iron workers to keep an eye on them before. I've also seen IBEW guys basically run them off. Us blue collar guys are more on the ball than some people give us credit for.

[Martin Blank]

Lol, yes. I've had them try and get big on me a few times. Although I usually have a "cmon bring it" attitude with them. At a rally or demo you should make sure some guys in hard hats know their union position and their propensity for violence. I've convinced Iron workers to keep an eye on them before. I've also seen IBEW guys basically run them off.

They seem to like to pick on the small and wiry people.

They tried getting big with me once. They couldn't get big enough and never tried it again.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

But this is nothing compared to their gangsterism. When the WL/SEP is losing a political argument, the odds are that they will end it by physically attacking whomever it is they are debating. I've seen them do it twice. They also get rather physical with people from other organizations who try to attend their meetings.

Allegedly, the Workers' League would also beat up people who tried to leave their little cult. I don't know if the SEP still does that. They also supported a cop strike, supported white racists against "African-American" schools, claimed that the problem with the British SWP was an excess of feminism, never repudiated Wohlforth's comments about queer people and women... seriously, fuck the SEP. Join only if you want to succeed David North as CEO, but be prepared to invent ridiculous stories about CIA spies in order to do so.

[Popular Front of Judea]

Does the SEP have a presence outside of the upper Midwest? What type of slogans are they fond of?

Have never spotted them here, as far as I am aware.

[The Idler]

David North is literally the Bourgeoisie.
He owns the means of production.
How the fuck are you going to have a Trot, Boss, Chairman, owner?

Friedrich Engels, although he was not a Trot.

Also I've always found accusations of gangsterism and banditry both strange terms to use even if appropriate.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Friedrich Engels, although he was not a Trot.

Except Engels didn't have members of the Communist League slaving away in his non-union print shop.


Also I've always found accusations of gangsterism and banditry both strange terms to use.

They beat their political opponents up. They beat their former members up. They were financed by bourgeois regimes in the Middle East, and sold Iraqi communists to Saddam, after previously justifying the execution of another group of Iraqi communists. They support cops and white segregationists. How are they not bandits and gangsters?

[Martin Blank]

Except Engels didn't have members of the Communist League slaving away in his non-union print shop.

Engels was never the boss. He refused to be a manager, choosing instead to take a job as a clerk in the mill. After his father died, he tried being a manager for a short time, but ended up selling all the shares he inherited and giving most of the money to the movement.

[Thirsty Crow]

T
They're across the board abandonment of all unions is absolutely horrible. It demonstrates a total misunderstanding of the role unions have.
Do you have a link to some of the organization's views on unions?

[Consistent.Surprise]

Do you have a link to some of the organization's views on unions?

Straight from the horse's mouth pertaining to the RTW law passed during lame duck in Michigan

http://www.socialequality.com/story/trade-unions-and-michigan’s-“right-work”-law

Edit: I'm not saying unions aren't primarily on the dems side, because most in the states are due to them seeking reformation through collective bargaining but to ditch unions is far more reactionary than empowering the workers.
Their program espouses the abolishment of trade unions even though their Detroit mayoral candidate is unionized at his job at DWSD (which went on strike last fall, people were terminated immediately, & I doubt Collier was on those picket lines, unlike a handful of Occupy Detroit people)

[Thirsty Crow]

Straight from the horse's mouth pertaining to the RTW law passed during lame duck in Michigan

http://www.socialequality.com/story/trade-unions-and-michigan’s-“right-work”-law

Edit: I'm not saying unions aren't primarily on the dems side, because most in the states are due to them seeking reformation through collective bargaining but to ditch unions is far more reactionary than empowering the workers.

All in all, I don't see what's wrong with the organization's position on unions. In fact, I'd say that it doesn't go far enough, and remains trapped within the framework of enumerating historical and contemporary "betrayals" by the union bosses (when in fact, these actions were no such thing as a betrayal; only those who take occasional fiery rhetoric seriously and do not analyse the basis of unionism can conclude that), while failing to see that indeed unions can win some immediate gains for workers, but more importantly, failing to see what I just mentioned - the inherently class collaborationist position of the union (which doesn't arise from a Trot fantasy about the dreadful "crisis-of-leadership", implying faulty politics or a lack of militancy, though to SEP's credit, they managed to avoid that pitfall).

What does it mean, "to ditch unions"? What do you think that the position of communist militants should be towards the unions?


Their program espouses the abolishment of trade unions...

To quote the text you linked:


As it enters into struggle against these conditions, the working class will come into ever more direct conflict with the unions. The formation of new organizations of struggle—democratic rank-and-file action committees—must be a central component in the independent political mobilization of the working class in revolutionary struggle against the big business parties and the capitalist system.

Does this amount to "ditching the unions" or even to support for union busting? I can't see how you could say that. In fact, this is the minimum sensible position on workers', not union bosses', action and escalating class struggle.


even though their Detroit mayoral candidate is unionized at his job at DWSD (which went on strike last fall, people were terminated immediately, & I doubt Collier was on those picket lines, unlike a handful of Occupy Detroit people)Well what does this have to do with the fact that SEP engages in criticism of the unions? I don't think that this can serve as the basis for the charge of hypocrisy, opportunism or whatnot. As I said, and as many communists who do uphold a radical criticism of the unions probably acknowledge, the union is not a bourgeois Trojan horse, and there is no need for communists to avoid union membership (though administrative positions within the bureaucracy...that's something different, but again, this needn't depend on basically moralist arguments), it's a basic collective framework which can in fact provide immediate gains. Are communists to denounce other workers for insisting on these? Hell no.

Now, what is hugely problematic here is that Mr. North is a cappie running a non-unionized workplace. Does this arise from the previously elaborated view on the unions as "internal" cops of the working class? Yeah, right, he surely urges the workers to form action committees. Against himself.

[Consistent.Surprise]

Bear with me, I'm doing this from my phone & apps aren't happy with me.



What does it mean, "to ditch unions"? SEP is looking to abolish unions.


What do you think that the position of communist militants should be towards the unions?
Since I'm still on the fence as to what classify myself as, I'll just give my personal position. I think there's a lot of bullshit that happens within some unions. I've seen the good & that far outweighs the crap. Living in a state where I can be fired at any time, going to work when sick, harassment from customers, allegations from bosses, threats of release due to health issues they knew of, all of that would be covered under a collective agreement. I sat back & watched the fight between administration & both the grad students (includes foreign students who are grads) as well as the full time & tenure staff & faculty this past year; none of this helped me but profs & grads working for peanuts is BS (this is one of few examples this year alone in observing unions fighting for workers)

I see unions as a voice within the profession; librarians are unionized. Who would've thunk? But they are if permanent employees.

Growing up in Detroit, I was able to learn about the bargaining between the UAW as well as the DFT. Due to their voicing their opinion it is now illegal to strike in Michigan. Guess the legislature didn't like that those voices were so loud.

The SEP aren't union busting (not like that matters in Michigan anymore now that we are RTW) but for a member to be in an anti-union organization (as they are & it states why they are) & gain the benefits of working through a union & run on an organizations platform, how hypocritical!

SEP is run by North (Green) spouting about worker's rights & revolution but he's prompting reformation when he has someone run for mayor of Detroit. Where's this revolution of the worker when he's managing the worker?



Now, what is hugely problematic here is that Mr. North is a cappie running a non-unionized workplace. Does this arise from the previously elaborated view on the unions as "internal" cops of the working class? Yeah, right, he surely urges the workers to form action committees. Against himself.

I'd really like to see his workers go against him. Reviews of working there mention that management is crappy at communicating.

I guess Van Buren Township will know things are serious when his workers revolt.

*I tried to answer/explain my thoughts but it's difficult on a phone*

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Now, what is hugely problematic here is that Mr. North is a cappie running a non-unionized workplace. Does this arise from the previously elaborated view on the unions as "internal" cops of the working class? Yeah, right, he surely urges the workers to form action committees. Against himself.

Keep in mind that North isn't above tailing the AFL-CIO anticommunist bureaucracy, when it suits him. And the only "action committee" they have been able to form was a sort-of-union of welfare officers, who were to the right of the usual union bureaucracy (arguing for the "right" of welfare officers to carry guns for example). I think you are right - the rotten practice of the SEP isn't a consequence of their horrible politics, but their status as political bandits - but that said, the SEP anti-union position isn't as consistent as the leftcom one, resting on some typically Healyite mumbo-jumbo about "globalisation".

[piet11111]

And yet reading the wsws i dont get that impression at all.

:confused:

[Consistent.Surprise]

And yet reading the wsws i dont get that impression at all.

:confused:

Read their program. The introduction alone with knowledge of North's company (& his standing in the company) made me realize I didn't want anyone supporting Collier for mayor.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

And yet reading the wsws i dont get that impression at all.

:confused:

What impression? That they're political bandits? Well they aren't going to come out and say so, but just look into their organisational history, for example how David Green became David North and how his predecessor was deposed. Or the sheer amount of skullduggery and unprincipled politicking that went into the deposition of their former international overlord Gerry Healy.

[Glitchcraft]

Does anyone on this forum defend the SEP?

[Popular Front of Judea]

They do have a nicely laid out website. :grin:


Does anyone on this forum defend the SEP?

[Tolstoy]

The Socialist Equality Party (SEP) are world-historic political bandits. To be brief, they are the descendents of the political line of Gerry Healy, who basically puckered up to Arab nationalism in the interest of lining his pockets. His organization was notorious for literally assaulting political opponents and masquerading as orthodox Trotskyist. Not only that, but they were quick to hail the Ayatollahs in Iran in 1979.

These days, they're run by David North (who's real name is David Green), who manages a non-union printing shop, which is in line with their claim that labor unions are thoroughly reactionary and must be destroyed. What a coincidence. They're nothing but fucking scabs.

They also claim that the liberal-backed Civil Rights Movement in the 1960's ended racial oppression in the United States and that the brutal murder of Trayvon Martin had nothing to do with race.

These days, North masquerades as a scholar defending the legacy of Leon Trotsky from bourgeois and academic slander. When it comes to the class struggle, the Northites are best at flying away. Their organization has receded to the internet in the hopes that they'll somehow build the vanguard that way.

For more on this, I recommend just doing a search for the SEP/WSWS with the term "cult" to read the endless accounts of political banditry that their organization has taken part in for quite some time. But in my opinion, the Internationalist Group sums up their anti-communism in this article: http://www.internationalist.org/wherewasdavidnorth.html

Wow the cult of David North is like some weak liberal version of the Bob Avakian cult of the RCP

[Red_Banner]

I've been thinking of joining a party in the USA.

Any thoughts on which one to join?

CPUSA and Socialist Equality are crap.

Then if I remember correctly Socialist Party USA didn't want to support the Russian Revolution.

What about Workers World?

[RedHal]

like any other Trot group, they are crap, but their WSWS is an excellent new source

[Sea]

How the fuck are you going to have a Trot, Boss, Chairman, owner?The more you think about it the less far-fetched it seems to have all those in one sentence.
And yet reading the wsws i dont get that impression at all.

:confused:Y'ever read the KCNA?

[RedUltra]

Here's my disclaimer: I admittedly have little inside knowledge of the SEP but I've been a longtime reader of the WSWS and have had some contacts with party members and supporters (and enemies for that matter). I've just recently begun considering making an inquiry into joining the party. While I'm by no means in 100% lockstep with everything published on the WSWS, I've found it to be by far the best source of analysis for both historical and current events. I've read widely across the political spectrum and nothing else even comes close.

My advice is simply to read the WSWS for yourself and form your own opinions. As you've no doubt realized by now, the infighting between parties claiming the mantle of orthodox Trotskyism is maddening and often downright absurd. I would stay away from the polemical debates for now in order to prevent them from biasing your judgment.

Frankly, I find the "SEP is a cult" meme really tiresome. For example, I'll always find the conspiracy theories regarding the SEP's position vis a vis the labor union bureaucracy to be bizarre. Make up your own mind though.

I don't mean to disparage all opponents of the SEP or dismiss all its critics but it's a simple fact that a substantial percentage of them are mentally unbalanced (to be clear, I am NOT necessarily referring to anyone on this forum). I've come across a guy who writes rageful haikus about David North. I knew another guy who was briefly a member, quit the party for a petty reason, and then went to ridiculous lengths to denounce the SEP. He soon became devoutly religious and an advocate of far-right views. I realize this is anecdotal evidence but it should give you a good indication of the amount of bat-shit-insane slander against the SEP/WSWS that is floating around the Internet.

Let's be honest here, these tiny obscure political parties are going to attract a disproportionate number of social outcasts and oddballs. That's been my experience of some members of the SEP, both current and former. In my view, however, this is completely and utterly irrelevant. The SEP member you run into at a protest rally or wherever and think is an a--hole is not the point here! It's really depressing to see so many people waste so much effort *****ing and moaning about their little personal dramas and fail to see the big picture. It's incredible how many well-intentioned people who consider themselves to be on the revolutionary left try to choose the right socialist party as if they're shopping for a consumer product. Which one fits my lifestyle? Who provides the friendliest service?

If there is going to be a genuine revolution in our lifetime, it will by definition be carried out by a working-class party with socialist principles operating under democratic procedures. In other words, it's going to be a party of the masses. The current membership and leadership of any party as it is currently constituted are likely to be completely subsumed. In other words, you should be focused on finding the best program, principles, strategy, tactics, theories etc. Nothing else should matter at this stage when no revolutionary movement even exists.

If you consider yourself a partisan of the ideology of Trotskyism and the heritage of the Fourth International, join the SEP and work to change whatever you disagree with from the inside. It makes no sense to say “It's a cult that has been hijacked by anti-union evildoers,” only to then throw up your hands and sit on the sidelines – or – to join a “Trotskyist” group whose platform is based on identity politics and whose main purpose is a pathetic attempt to push the Democratic Party to the Left.

[Kassad]

Here's my disclaimer: I admittedly have little inside knowledge of the SEP but I've been a longtime reader of the WSWS and have had some contacts with party members and supporters (and enemies for that matter). I've just recently begun considering making an inquiry into joining the party. While I'm by no means in 100% lockstep with everything published on the WSWS, I've found it to be by far the best source of analysis for both historical and current events. I've read widely across the political spectrum and nothing else even comes close.

My advice is simply to read the WSWS for yourself and form your own opinions. As you've no doubt realized by now, the infighting between parties claiming the mantle of orthodox Trotskyism is maddening and often downright absurd. I would stay away from the polemical debates for now in order to prevent them from biasing your judgment.

Frankly, I find the "SEP is a cult" meme really tiresome. For example, I'll always find the conspiracy theories regarding the SEP's position vis a vis the labor union bureaucracy to be bizarre. Make up your own mind though.

I don't mean to disparage all opponents of the SEP or dismiss all its critics but it's a simple fact that a substantial percentage of them are mentally unbalanced (to be clear, I am NOT necessarily referring to anyone on this forum). I've come across a guy who writes rageful haikus about David North. I knew another guy who was briefly a member, quit the party for a petty reason, and then went to ridiculous lengths to denounce the SEP. He soon became devoutly religious and an advocate of far-right views. I realize this is anecdotal evidence but it should give you a good indication of the amount of bat-shit-insane slander against the SEP/WSWS that is floating around the Internet.

Let's be honest here, these tiny obscure political parties are going to attract a disproportionate number of social outcasts and oddballs. That's been my experience of some members of the SEP, both current and former. In my view, however, this is completely and utterly irrelevant. The SEP member you run into at a protest rally or wherever and think is an a--hole is not the point here! It's really depressing to see so many people waste so much effort *****ing and moaning about their little personal dramas and fail to see the big picture. It's incredible how many well-intentioned people who consider themselves to be on the revolutionary left try to choose the right socialist party as if they're shopping for a consumer product. Which one fits my lifestyle? Who provides the friendliest service?

If there is going to be a genuine revolution in our lifetime, it will by definition be carried out by a working-class party with socialist principles operating under democratic procedures. In other words, it's going to be a party of the masses. The current membership and leadership of any party as it is currently constituted are likely to be completely subsumed. In other words, you should be focused on finding the best program, principles, strategy, tactics, theories etc. Nothing else should matter at this stage when no revolutionary movement even exists.

If you consider yourself a partisan of the ideology of Trotskyism and the heritage of the Fourth International, join the SEP and work to change whatever you disagree with from the inside. It makes no sense to say “It's a cult that has been hijacked by anti-union evildoers,” only to then throw up your hands and sit on the sidelines – or – to join a “Trotskyist” group whose platform is based on identity politics and whose main purpose is a pathetic attempt to push the Democratic Party to the Left.

Gerry Healy thanks you for your stale, entryist ineptitude. The Northites utterly invalidate one of the basic tenets of Trotskyism, which is fighting to break the working class unions from their treacherous leaderships. Then again, what's the point when you could just write off workers altogether and have all of your incredibly abstentionist, incredibly white friends run your non-union printing shop for you? Peachy: for anti-communists.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Here's my disclaimer: I admittedly have little inside knowledge of the SEP but I've been a longtime reader of the WSWS and have had some contacts with party members and supporters (and enemies for that matter). I've just recently begun considering making an inquiry into joining the party. While I'm by no means in 100% lockstep with everything published on the WSWS, I've found it to be by far the best source of analysis for both historical and current events. I've read widely across the political spectrum and nothing else even comes close.

My advice is simply to read the WSWS for yourself and form your own opinions. As you've no doubt realized by now, the infighting between parties claiming the mantle of orthodox Trotskyism is maddening and often downright absurd. I would stay away from the polemical debates for now in order to prevent them from biasing your judgment.

Frankly, I find the "SEP is a cult" meme really tiresome. For example, I'll always find the conspiracy theories regarding the SEP's position vis a vis the labor union bureaucracy to be bizarre. Make up your own mind though.

I don't mean to disparage all opponents of the SEP or dismiss all its critics but it's a simple fact that a substantial percentage of them are mentally unbalanced (to be clear, I am NOT necessarily referring to anyone on this forum). I've come across a guy who writes rageful haikus about David North. I knew another guy who was briefly a member, quit the party for a petty reason, and then went to ridiculous lengths to denounce the SEP. He soon became devoutly religious and an advocate of far-right views. I realize this is anecdotal evidence but it should give you a good indication of the amount of bat-shit-insane slander against the SEP/WSWS that is floating around the Internet.

Let's be honest here, these tiny obscure political parties are going to attract a disproportionate number of social outcasts and oddballs. That's been my experience of some members of the SEP, both current and former. In my view, however, this is completely and utterly irrelevant. The SEP member you run into at a protest rally or wherever and think is an a--hole is not the point here! It's really depressing to see so many people waste so much effort *****ing and moaning about their little personal dramas and fail to see the big picture. It's incredible how many well-intentioned people who consider themselves to be on the revolutionary left try to choose the right socialist party as if they're shopping for a consumer product. Which one fits my lifestyle? Who provides the friendliest service?

If there is going to be a genuine revolution in our lifetime, it will by definition be carried out by a working-class party with socialist principles operating under democratic procedures. In other words, it's going to be a party of the masses. The current membership and leadership of any party as it is currently constituted are likely to be completely subsumed. In other words, you should be focused on finding the best program, principles, strategy, tactics, theories etc. Nothing else should matter at this stage when no revolutionary movement even exists.

If you consider yourself a partisan of the ideology of Trotskyism and the heritage of the Fourth International, join the SEP and work to change whatever you disagree with from the inside. It makes no sense to say “It's a cult that has been hijacked by anti-union evildoers,” only to then throw up your hands and sit on the sidelines – or – to join a “Trotskyist” group whose platform is based on identity politics and whose main purpose is a pathetic attempt to push the Democratic Party to the Left.

So, let me get this straight: by no means should prospective members investigate the serious charges against the WL/SEP. Instead, they should join the SEP and hope that they can push the Lord of the Fleas North in a revolutionary direction... without being beaten up for their trouble? And you expect people to join after reading this?

As for identity politics, the SEP is certainly opposed to that. From the right. From blocking with white segregationists to "The working class hates faggots, women's libbers and hippies, and so do we!".

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't think I've really encountered any of their members - or at least I didn't know they were a member. But from reading some of their articles, I think their arguments around racism in the Zimmerman trial, as well as their distorted sectarian attacks on other left groups are pretty bizzare.

In regards to their coverage of the Zimmerman case they seem to have seperated racism (or racial politics as they put it) from class society - in fact they seem to argue it's a distraction from class issues. If I'm mistaken on this, please correct me, this is just my impression from a few articles so it might not be representative of their overall views.

All that being said, can we not have more threads about what people think of certain groups in the abstract? Most of the discussions have been not all that political and quickly degenerate into discussions of NAMBLA and cults etc. It might be more useful to ask more specific questions about specific views of a group, rather than just general free for alls.

[chebol]

I've just recently begun considering making an inquiry into joining the party. While I'm by no means in 100% lockstep with everything published on the WSWS, I've found it to be by far the best source of analysis for both historical and current events. I've read widely across the political spectrum and nothing else even comes close.


Except that if you've ever been involved in any of the events that they "report" on, you'd realise that they literally make shit up.

I kid you not. There is more factual and accurate reporting of militant struggles and the activity of the far left in the bourgeois press than on the WSWS.

[sixdollarchampagne]

From where I sit, it sure looks like, if you're anti-union, chances are excellent that you are anti-worker, too, and I don't see why the SEP should be an exception to that. Given that the unions are the only class organization of working people in the US, that is, without unions, we have nothing, and that the SEP has a consistent record of vigorously opposing unions, there is no way that backing the SEP corresponds to the interests of workers in the US. Since capitalists are the class enemy, people with any experience on the left should be able to grasp that a "leftist" group run by the boss of a capitalist enterprise, like David Green, North or whatever, is, absolutely, not worthy of support.

[cliffhanger]

Does someone have a source on the fact that they sold out Iraqi communists to President Hussein? I'm not sure that's a big deal, anyway. The pro-Soviet Iraqi Communist Party proved how utterly ridiculous they were when they allied with the USA's occupation regime. Just because people say they are Communists doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

[khad]

My impression of the SEP?

Roman Polanski.

[Red_Banner]

From where I sit, it sure looks like, if you're anti-union, chances are excellent that you are anti-worker, too, and I don't see why the SEP should be an exception to that. Given that the unions are the only class organization of working people in the US, that is, without unions, we have nothing, and that the SEP has a consistent record of vigorously opposing unions, there is no way that backing the SEP corresponds to the interests of workers in the US. Since capitalists are the class enemy, people with any experience on the left should be able to grasp that a "leftist" group run by the boss of a capitalist enterprise, like David Green, North or whatever, is, absolutely, not worthy of support.

The unions I have a problem with though are public sector ones like teachers unions.

They want high pay and all kinds of benefits for themselves when it is the private sector proletarian stuck paying or it.

When these public sector unions protest, they only care about themselves.

They don't want to bring up the rest of society with them.

They become another class separate from the workers.

[khad]

The unions I have a problem with though are public sector ones like teachers unions.

They want high pay and all kinds of benefits for themselves when it is the private sector proletarian stuck paying or it.

When these public sector unions protest, they only care about themselves.

They don't want to bring up the rest of society with them.

They become another class separate from the workers.
The teachers' unions are some of the few places where communists and socialists actually still have some influence. And they've been under constant neoliberal attack. In many places now it's become routine to pink slip all teachers at the end of the school year.

Leave it to idiot leftists to blame workers for actually, you know, organizing.

[cliffhanger]

The unions I have a problem with though are public sector ones like teachers unions.

They want high pay and all kinds of benefits for themselves when it is the private sector proletarian stuck paying or it.It's not a zero sum game between public and private sector workers. You're forgetting the capitalist class and its managers. Teachers don't take money away from production workers, they are educated professionals that are often poorly paid compared to equivalent skill levels in the private sector. Defending "good jobs" like teachers doesn't harm other workers, too, it helps raise the standard for what people can expect from jobs. This is a matter of class struggle, since capitalists (and the capitalist state) will always try to pay the minimum.

[TomLeftist]

You know I hate capitalism so much, because it is impossible for me and for most people to experience economic, physical, physiological, psychologic, spiritual and emotional progress as long as USA is governed by the traditional capitalist parties (Democrats and Republicans), and at the same time as the leftist parties are so divided. As long as we have in USA a divided left, a left divided into many tendencies.

But I somehow agree with some of the comments here about The Socialist Equality Party of USA and their main website World Socialist Website. The great majority of people there are not too loving, friendly, and they seem to me too individualists, they don't behave like leftists. There are even elderly people there who claim that they are supporting The Socialist Equality Party of USA, because the current medicare, medicaid health care social programs of USA are being destroyed and privatized. But at the same time, they do support and feel good with some of the things of the US government.

I think that most of them seem to me, like middle class people, people who are not very desperate and who are not living a life of pain. Because I think that in order to see a real marxist revolution like the Bolshevik Russian Revolution of 1917 people have to be in real pain, real physical and emotional pain. And most of them seem to me that are doing ok in life, like the people of Socialistworker.org, The Green Party and many other reformists elitist leftist parties


Ive been looking ito the Socialist Equality Party, but it looks a bit namby pamby for a slightly more hardcore Trotskyist. What exactly do they stand for, and what are they most know for? Im basically just looking to learn more about this party than whats on wikipedia

[ckaihatsu]

[I]n order to see a real marxist revolution like the Bolshevik Russian Revolution of 1917 people have to be in real pain, real physical and emotional pain.


TL, sorry to be the one to do this, but I have to point out that you're using soft-left *lifestylism* as a way to indict those who you think are 'not too loving, friendly, and [too] [individualistic]'.

It's a common fallacy -- and even a tactic of antagonism -- to judge revolutionaries according to their lives and lifestyles, and not according to their actual *politics*. (It's comparable to judging a person solely by the work that they do.)

This line you're continually upholding is actually a *disservice* to revolutionary politics, and you really should *cease* it immediately.

Also:


History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle



http://s6.postimg.org/44rloql0x/160309_History_Macro_Micro_politics_logistic.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/r686uhkod/full/)


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And most of them seem to me that are doing ok in life, like the people of Socialistworker.org, The Green Party and many other reformists elitist leftist parties


Here you're blurring-together too many political orientations that are *not* parallel, or similar.

I'm not sectarian, but there *is* a fundamental difference between revolutionary politics, and reformist politics.

[TomLeftist]

ckaihatsu: Thanks a lot for pointing that out. You are right, politics is a science, like medical science. A dentist can be unfriendly and at the same time, he can be a great dentist.

You are right, thanks for reminding me of that. And by the way, I agree with most of the analysis of this forum of the Socialist Equality Party of USA. They have a couple of modern websites, very orderly and informative (http://www.wsws.org/http://www.sep2016.com/ ) but I guess like the other members of Revleft, of this topic. That The Socialist Equality Party of USA, has a great cool informative website, but their own history, and some other problems that they have, like David North being a sort of capitalist, do not make them the best ultra-left radical proletarian party who are ready to overthrow the US capitalist state and replace it with a dictatorship of the workers.

I think that most SEP members also reject any armed revolution. And according to many Marxists and to even Karl Marx himself, it is very hard to destroy a capitalist state and replace it with a workers socialist state with all corporations nationalized under workers-control, thru regular elections supported by UN and international bourgeoise observers



TL, sorry to be the one to do this, but I have to point out that you're using soft-left *lifestylism* as a way to indict those who you think are 'not too loving, friendly, and [too] [individualistic]'.

It's a common fallacy -- and even a tactic of antagonism -- to judge revolutionaries according to their lives and lifestyles, and not according to their actual *politics*. (It's comparable to judging a person solely by the work that they do.)

This line you're continually upholding is actually a *disservice* to revolutionary politics, and you really should *cease* it immediately.

Also:


History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle



http://s6.postimg.org/44rloql0x/160309_History_Macro_Micro_politics_logistic.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/r686uhkod/full/)


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Here you're blurring-together too many political orientations that are *not* parallel, or similar.

I'm not sectarian, but there *is* a fundamental difference between revolutionary politics, and reformist politics.

[ckaihatsu]

ckaihatsu: Thanks a lot for pointing that out. You are right, politics is a science, like medical science. A dentist can be unfriendly and at the same time, he can be a great dentist.


Point taken, though that's not the best example, unfortunately....


How to Remineralize Teeth Naturally & Reverse Tooth Decay

https://wellnessmama.com/3650/remineralize-teeth/





You are right, thanks for reminding me of that. And by the way, I agree with most of the analysis of this forum of the Socialist Equality Party of USA. They have a couple of modern websites, very orderly and informative (http://www.wsws.org/http://www.sep2016.com/ ) but I guess like the other members of Revleft, of this topic.




That The Socialist Equality Party of USA, has a great cool informative website, but their own history, and some other problems that they have, like David North being a sort of capitalist, do not make them the best ultra-left radical proletarian party who are ready to overthrow the US capitalist state and replace it with a dictatorship of the workers.


I've heard the same info about the SEP at other times, too, so there's probably something to it....

I wouldn't presume to know how that organization might conduct itself in the midst of revolutionary upheaval, though, which is probably right around the corner.... (looking at watch) (grin)

I think the WSWS is a very good journalistic source, especially since it's reliable and timely, and has a socialist perspective throughout.

Btw, 'ultra-left' sounds cool as hell, of course, but it's not the best term to use for the meaning you're indicating -- I've done this myself, too, so I'm kind of conscientious about it now. 'Ultra-left' means 'having an unrealistic revolutionary agenda', like expecting the revolution to happen tomorrow, all in one day.





Used pejoratively, ultra-left generally criticizes positions that are adopted without taking notice of the current situation or of the consequences which would result from following a proposed course. The term is used to criticize leftist positions that, for example, overstate the tempo of events, propose initiatives that overestimate the current level of militancy, or which employ a highly militant tone in their propaganda.




Ultra-leftism is often associated with leftist sectarianism, in which a socialist current might attempt to put its own short-term interests before the long-term interests of the working class and its allies.[citation needed]




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-left_politics#Ultra-leftism


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I think that most SEP members also reject any armed revolution.


Hmmmm, I don't know anything around this subtopic, but one can note that if the numbers are great enough there *wouldn't be* any need for armed revolution since such an act brings with it the political price of inherent *substitutionism* (in place of actual greater *mass* participation).





And according to many Marxists and to even Karl Marx himself, it is very hard to destroy a capitalist state and replace it with a workers socialist state with all corporations nationalized under workers-control, thru regular elections supported by UN and international bourgeoise observers


So you're implying that the SEP's politics call for workers-state elections to be supported by the UN and international bourgeois observers -- ? That's too far-fetched and really smacks of bullshit.

[TomLeftist]

Ckaihatsu: Thanks a lot for your clear-cut explanation about The Socialist Equality Party of the USA and their news website World Socialist Web Site (WSWS). By the way, according to what you said about the nature of ultra-lefttism, far-leftism. I think that maybe The Socialist Equality Party of USA might then be part of the ultra-leftist parties, for their sectarianism. I know that there are many leftist political parties in USA and in other countries, that are social-democrats and not socialists and that use the label of "socialist party" or "communist party" but are really social-democrats and the writers of WSWS and The Socialist Equality Party of USA are very right in their critisism against the socialists and communist parties, and the socialist and communist activists who are in nature social-democrats. So I don't know if The Socialist Equality Party and WSWS are correct in rejecting any union with the fake leftist parties (social-democrats), labeled "pseudo-left" by the leaders of The Socialist Equaliaty Party of USA and the writers of WSWS, and rejecting any union with Socialist Alternative (kshama sawant) and many other parties in the left that are called "socialist party" and "communist party" but are not socialists, communists at all, but more or less "social-democrats".

Another thing is that I think that real leftist labor parties claim that the only way to overthrow the US government and replace it with a dictatorship of the proletariat is thru an armed war of the oppressed united with the communists against the armed forces of the oppressor ruling class of the US government. But even though the Socialist Equality Party of US, try to stay close to marxism, to orthodox marxist doctrine, they do participate in US elections and win very little votes and will never win any presidential elections, because the US electoral system is rigged, and even if it is not rigged, and even if Karl Marx himself becomes US president thru an election, Karl Marx himself won't be able to destroy the US capitalist state and replace it with a socialist workers-dictatorship. So I don't understand how the people of Socialsit Equality Party of US, try to be close to marxism, by rejecting any union with social-democrats (green party, chris hedges, chomsky, amy goodman, socialist alternative of kshama sawant, etc) but at the same time they try to participate in the bourgeoise electoral system. And authentic marxists should instead think about an armed war against the US exploiters


Point taken, though that's not the best example, unfortunately....


How to Remineralize Teeth Naturally & Reverse Tooth Decay

https://wellnessmama.com/3650/remineralize-teeth/







I've heard the same info about the SEP at other times, too, so there's probably something to it....

I wouldn't presume to know how that organization might conduct itself in the midst of revolutionary upheaval, though, which is probably right around the corner.... (looking at watch) (grin)

I think the WSWS is a very good journalistic source, especially since it's reliable and timely, and has a socialist perspective throughout.

Btw, 'ultra-left' sounds cool as hell, of course, but it's not the best term to use for the meaning you're indicating -- I've done this myself, too, so I'm kind of conscientious about it now. 'Ultra-left' means 'having an unrealistic revolutionary agenda', like expecting the revolution to happen tomorrow, all in one day.









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Hmmmm, I don't know anything around this subtopic, but one can note that if the numbers are great enough there *wouldn't be* any need for armed revolution since such an act brings with it the political price of inherent *substitutionism* (in place of actual greater *mass* participation).





So you're implying that the SEP's politics call for workers-state elections to be supported by the UN and international bourgeois observers -- ? That's too far-fetched and really smacks of bullshit.

[ckaihatsu]

Ckaihatsu: Thanks a lot for your clear-cut explanation about The Socialist Equality Party of the USA and their news website World Socialist Web Site (WSWS). By the way, according to what you said about the nature of ultra-lefttism, far-leftism. I think that maybe The Socialist Equality Party of USA might then be part of the ultra-leftist parties, for their sectarianism.


I tend to think of sectarianism as being more *right*ward-oriented, since it, by definition, raises its own organization above other similar ones.


G.U.T.S.U.C., Individualism - Tribalism



http://s6.postimg.org/izeyfeh9t/150403_2_Individualism_Tribalism_aoi_36_tiff_x.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/680s8w7hp/full/)


This slides right into a much larger topic of how socialist-type organizations should relate to each other, a topic that I'm not qualified to address from my own experience.

But I wouldn't think of 'ultra-leftism' as being synonymous with 'far-leftism' since they *don't* have the same meaning.





I know that there are many leftist political parties in USA and in other countries, that are social-democrats and not socialists and that use the label of "socialist party" or "communist party" but are really social-democrats and the writers of WSWS and The Socialist Equality Party of USA are very right in their critisism against the socialists and communist parties, and the socialist and communist activists who are in nature social-democrats.


Yes, I agree -- not all revolutionary-leftist internal criticisms are simply inter-organizational sectarianism.





So I don't know if The Socialist Equality Party and WSWS are correct in rejecting any union with the fake leftist parties (social-democrats), labeled "pseudo-left" by the leaders of The Socialist Equaliaty Party of USA and the writers of WSWS, and rejecting any union with Socialist Alternative (kshama sawant) and many other parties in the left that are called "socialist party" and "communist party" but are not socialists, communists at all, but more or less "social-democrats".


I myself find this to be a rather complicated area since we may not readily know if an organization's particular action (such as supporting a 'left' candidate's campaign for public office) is part of their 'core' politics, or is just a *tactic* to address real-world developments so as to not be abstentionist by default and politically irrelevant (ultra-left).





Another thing is that I think that real leftist labor parties claim that the only way to overthrow the US government and replace it with a dictatorship of the proletariat is thru an armed war of the oppressed united with the communists against the armed forces of the oppressor ruling class of the US government. But even though the Socialist Equality Party of US, try to stay close to marxism, to orthodox marxist doctrine, they do participate in US elections and win very little votes and will never win any presidential elections, because the US electoral system is rigged, and even if it is not rigged, and even if Karl Marx himself becomes US president thru an election, Karl Marx himself won't be able to destroy the US capitalist state and replace it with a socialist workers-dictatorship. So I don't understand how the people of Socialsit Equality Party of US, try to be close to marxism, by rejecting any union with social-democrats (green party, chris hedges, chomsky, amy goodman, socialist alternative of kshama sawant, etc) but at the same time they try to participate in the bourgeoise electoral system. And authentic marxists should instead think about an armed war against the US exploiters


Well, 'entryism' into the bourgeois elections *could* be relevant, depending on particulars, and is most often done to gauge popular sentiment and support for revolutionary politics.

'Armed warfare' would at most be a strategy and/or tactic, always dependent on prevailing circumstances / conditions, while it would also need an appropriate 'exit strategy' and plan for moving the overall revolution forward -- 'domestic' concerns, basically.