Transmisogyny

[human strike]

I've a question on transmisogyny with which I have been grappling and am hoping comrades can help me with. Is transmisogyny more than an extension of the violence and oppression (I use that term hesitantly in this context) that all male assigned people experience under patriarchy or is it qualitatively different due to the fact transwomen have a different gender identity? In other words, does patriarchy treat transwomen differently from cismales or is their treatment in principle the same, albeit far more extreme due to their greater deviation from masculine gender norms?

If it is the former (which I am not (at least presently) convinced it is) then is the oppression of transwomen different from the oppression of cisfemales and, if so, how and why?

I hope I've made what I'm asking clear enough. Thanks. :)

[The Feral Underclass]

This isn't a particularly interesting or useful post, but I just wanted to say, for your information, I have never heard the term "transmisogyny" before. Thank you for introducing it into my life :)

[human strike]

This isn't a particularly interesting or useful post, but I just wanted to say, for your information, I have never heard the term "transmisogyny" before. Thank you for introducing it into my life :)

You're welcome.

Mods, feel free to move this thread to 'Discrimination' if you think it'd be more appropriately placed there. Or don't, it's all good.

[BIXX]

I've a question on transmisogyny with which I have been grappling and am hoping comrades can help me with. Is transmisogyny more than an extension of the violence and oppression (I use that term hesitantly in this context) that all male assigned people experience under patriarchy or is it qualitatively different due to the fact transwomen have a different gender identity? In other words, does patriarchy treat transwomen differently from cismales or is their treatment in principle the same, albeit far more extreme due to their greater deviation from masculine gender norms?

If it is the former (which I am not (at least presently) convinced it is) then is the oppression of transwomen different from the oppression of cisfemales and, if so, how and why?

I hope I've made what I'm asking clear enough. Thanks. :)

If I understand your question, you're simply asking whether transwomen have a more extreme version of male oppression, or a totally different type of oppression?

If this is correct, I'd say they have a synthesis of the two. I think they'd get a totally new type from the fact that their gender is different, but also seeing as they were male, they probably suffer from patriarchy in much the same way as makes do, but like you said, more extreme.

[The Douche]

Given the way many transwomen are excluded from spaces for women, I would say the oppression they face extends beyond patriarchy.

[Quail]

I suppose transmisogyny refers to the specific experiences of trans women (and men). As women, or men who deviate from the patriarchal definitions of gender, they experience oppression due to patriarchy. However on top of that, trans women experience other forms of oppression specific to being trans. For example some feminist "woman-only" spaces exclude trans women which means they can't organise with other women against sexism. Trans people are also often excluded from changing rooms and toilets which in particular they can't use public toilets safely.

So my understanding of the word is it is the intersection between sexism and transphobia.

[slum]

i always understood trans-misogyny to mean misogyny directed at trans women that is typically not also directed at trans men, which, while obviously tied in with the sexism all women face, is explicitly targeted at trans women. it is qualitatively different than the oppression of all (cis and trans) females, but not entirely unconnected from it.

it might come from:

radical feminists (who have been known to allow trans men into "women-only" spaces (which is dismissive of trans mens' identities also) but regard trans women as intruders)

from more obviously mainstream sexist sources: the idea that "men in women's clothing*" is itself humorous (see stories from 'achilles cross-dressing to hide from odysseus' to 'some like it hot', 'tootsie', 'mrs doubtfire' etc), the fetishization of trans women sex workers as "artificial"/"bizarre"/"queer panic!", the fetishization of the lives of trans women as "exotic" in general.
*see also the general inability of many people to differentiate between being trans and cross-dressing while retaining a birth-assigned gender identity

and: the particular scrutiny and gender-policing enforced on trans women by cis people, women included, about what is and is not feminine, with the implication that displaying any non-stereotypically feminine behavior is a sign they are not "really" trans (or "really" women)

note that the vast majority of murders and assaults of trans folk are of trans women rather than trans men, and (i think) the majority of murders are of trans women of color.

the particular vitriol trans women face seems to relate to their perceived "failure" as "men"- (femininity is shameful! femininity is emasculation! femininity is demeaning!*)- and castration anxiety (see the frequency of insults to trans women that revolve around the ~horrifying prospect~ that they "want their dicks cut off"). so in those two aspects, yes, i would say the origin of trans misogyny clearly lies, at least in part, in expectations foisted upon men under 'patriarchy'/sexism. the violent anxiety about trans womens' existence (on the part of both radfems and stereotypically male-chauvinist ideologies) and trans bodies seems centered around the role of men and male bodies in 'patriarchy'. but i think there is 'cross-pollination', if you will, with the oppression that cis and trans women deal with on a daily basis

*these attitudes would not exist outside of a system that devalues all women, but trans women are seen as particularly frightening/offensive

admittedly it's not a term i've ever been able to get a great handle on, but i hope the above is helpful in clarifying trans-misogyny as opposed to "general" misogyny.

[Ele'ill]

and: the particular scrutiny and gender-policing enforced on trans women by cis people, women included, about what is and is not feminine, with the implication that displaying any non-stereotypically feminine behavior is a sign they are not "really" trans (or "really" women)

Good post and I talked about this with friends today coincidentally. This isn't just enforced by cis people btw.

[slum]

Good post and I talked about this with friends today coincidentally. This isn't just enforced by cis people btw.

this is true, trans people can also gender-police other trans people.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Think about your question for a minute. I'm going to assume that you accept that transwomen are women, so it follows that what you're basically asking is:

"Is the oppression felt by women different the oppression felt by men?"

Transmisogyny is directed at women, not men. Particular women, for sure, but that doesn't really change the answer to your question.

[BIXX]

Think about your question for a minute. I'm going to assume that you accept that transwomen are women, so it follows that what you're basically asking is:

"Is the oppression felt by women different the oppression felt by men?"

Transmisogyny is directed at women, not men. Particular women, for sure, but that doesn't really change the answer to your question.

They are women, but I think that patriarchy would try to separate these women from women that were born women. This is apparent in the way they are treated by other women saying things like "They aren't real women!"

[human strike]

Thank you for the replies. :)

I was wondering if people had any more thoughts on the differences in oppression that trans-women face compared to cis-women. If we accept that patriarchy has a material basis and that cis-women are exploited in a specific material way, are trans-women exploited in the same way? I agree with what was said above about both experiencing some of the same forms of discrimination, but qualitatively to what extent is the oppression the same or different?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Think about your question for a minute. I'm going to assume that you accept that transwomen are women, so it follows that what you're basically asking is:

"Is the oppression felt by women different the oppression felt by men?"

Transmisogyny is directed at women, not men. Particular women, for sure, but that doesn't really change the answer to your question.

But the issue is largely a question of how others view it.

A heterosexual male finds it offensive both because they sometimes see it as denigrating maleness (a mtf). A ftm might to them just be a confused frustrated lesbian, that sort of shit. And heterosexual females might think the mtf is just a rapist crossdresser or something. And then there's the particular situation that might arise from other trans. It's not a situation that is exactly like the usual sexism, though it arises from the same source.

[Tenka]

Think about your question for a minute. I'm going to assume that you accept that transwomen are women, so it follows that what you're basically asking is:

"Is the oppression felt by women different the oppression felt by men?"

Transmisogyny is directed at women, not men. Particular women, for sure, but that doesn't really change the answer to your question.

It is different in that most cisgender discriminators do not see transwomen as women; they see them as aberrations and homosexuals and perverts and even fetishes. Transwomen are fucked over in some unique ways that ciswomen are not, and vice-versa (for example, transwomen don't have to deal with the particular extreme violations that may come your way if you happen to possess a womb in this society).

[Consistent.Surprise]

It is different in that most cisgender discriminators do not see transwomen as women; they see them as aberrations and homosexuals and perverts and even fetishes. Transwomen are fucked over in some unique ways that ciswomen are not, and vice-versa (for example, transwomen don't have to deal with the particular extreme violations that may come your way if you happen to possess a womb in this society).

Trans* are "unnatural" in more ways than homosexuals (as I see the discrimination). My boobs are real (even if enhanced) as is my labia/vagina. A mtf is going against the natural "order". This is the logic I see pertaining to trans* but mostly with mtf. I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis.

I've been fortunate enough to know both women who feel like they are men, and mtf women. I've noticed that with the mtf women I've met, there is little support & a sadness about struggling to be accepted.