manning: 'i am a female'

[bcbm]

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/8/22/bradley-manning-wantstobereferredtoasawoman.html

[Fourth Internationalist]

This is good. Hopefully this will help bring more attention to both the case and the issue of trans phobia.

[Comrade Jacob]

Manning is one of the few true American heroes.

[adipocere]

I'm just going to come out and say it. I don't think that Bradley Manning is in any state of mind to be making such a drastic decision. He's been locked up in prison, tortured and just now been given a horribly unjust sentence.

Even under ordinary circumstances, gender reassignment is a big deal with huge psychological considerations - and military prison is not the right environment to be performing treatments like this.

I am disappointed that people close to him are encouraging him. There seems to be a level of sychophantism surrounding Manning right now.

(braces for backlash)

[Le Socialiste]

You do know Manning has thought of herself as a woman since childhood, right? It's not like her decision to make this transition complete is coming out of left field or anything. Psychological considerations notwithstanding, if Manning wants to do this now, why not? It's her decision, and those close or with access to her are right to respect it.

[Sam_b]

You should brace yourself for a backlash because you have no right to tell someone what they should and should not do to their body; and you have no business in what gender they define themselves by either.

This is basic stuff.

[RedAnarchist]

I'm just going to come out and say it. I don't think that Bradley Manning is in any state of mind to be making such a drastic decision. He's been locked up in prison, tortured and just now been given a horribly unjust sentence.

Even under ordinary circumstances, gender reassignment is a big deal with huge psychological considerations - and military prison is not the right environment to be performing treatments like this.

I am disappointed that people close to him are encouraging him. There seems to be a level of sychophantism surrounding Manning right now.

(braces for backlash)

Her, not his, and her gender dysphoria is not a recent development. She's also called Chelsea.

[Decolonize The Left]

I'm just going to come out and say it. I don't think that Bradley Manning is in any state of mind to be making such a drastic decision. He's been locked up in prison, tortured and just now been given a horribly unjust sentence.

Even under ordinary circumstances, gender reassignment is a big deal with huge psychological considerations - and military prison is not the right environment to be performing treatments like this.

I am disappointed that people close to him are encouraging him. There seems to be a level of sychophantism surrounding Manning right now.

(braces for backlash)

Before you respond to anything, I'd just like to ask that you re-read the three posts above mine which responded to your comment. They are spot on.

[Igor]

I'm just going to come out and say it. I don't think that Bradley Manning is in any state of mind to be making such a drastic decision. He's been locked up in prison, tortured and just now been given a horribly unjust sentence.

Even under ordinary circumstances, gender reassignment is a big deal with huge psychological considerations - and military prison is not the right environment to be performing treatments like this.

I am disappointed that people close to him are encouraging him. There seems to be a level of sychophantism surrounding Manning right now.

(braces for backlash)

stalin avatar, organisation cpusa and this post

aren't you the perfect package

[Decolonize The Left]

stalin avatar, organisation cpusa and this post

aren't you the perfect package

This is flaming and totally unnecessary. You should be warned for this.

[Pirate Utopian]

Although I wish her the best, I hope this doesn't distract from the case itself which is what's really important.

Of course this has also led to some bigots using this to "prove" Manning is "crazy". Which is not her fault, but it's just so typical of these bigots.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I'm just going to come out and say it. I don't think that Bradley Manning is in any state of mind to be making such a drastic decision. He's been locked up in prison, tortured and just now been given a horribly unjust sentence.

Even under ordinary circumstances, gender reassignment is a big deal with huge psychological considerations - and military prison is not the right environment to be performing treatments like this.

I am disappointed that people close to him are encouraging him. There seems to be a level of sychophantism surrounding Manning right now.

(braces for backlash)

1. Brianna Chelsea.
2. She.
3. This was a decision she'd made before, and even if it weren't, who the fuck are you to question her judgement?
4. This is some transphobic bullshit. Like, "drastic decision"? It's only drastic insofar as it means she'll face bullshit like this from transphobes like you.

[Comrade Chernov]

GDU, it's Chelsea, actually, not Brianna. Aside from that...yeah, pretty much every post in response to adipocere's is accurate. It's her right what to do with her body and we respect her preference and her identity. A communist can't be a communist without respecting the rights of the people they serve.

[Quail]

stalin avatar, organisation cpusa and this post

aren't you the perfect package


This is flaming and totally unnecessary. You should be warned for this.
Yup, have a verbal warning. If you want to argue with someone, engage with what they say instead of just flaming them.

[adipocere]

I was not making a giant sweeping statement about transgender people, and I admit I should have referred to Manning as a female. I'm also not telling people what to do or not do with their bodies. I am hoping that Manning is not exploited - I can see that easily happening as parts of the the LGBT movement seem to have been hijacked by pro-military, corporate interests.

I think it is unfortunate that nobody seems see an ethical issue with gender reassignment in a military prison where someone has experienced - and will probably continue to experience - extreme psychological and physical torture and humiliation for 8 to 35 more years.

[Paul Pott]

99% of the comments on conservative sites are like "oh, you will be one where you're going"

[Sam_b]

I'm also not telling people what to do or not do with their bodies


I don't think that Bradley Manning is in any state of mind to be making such a drastic decision


I am disappointed that people close to him are encouraging him.

Well, that's not the impression you're giving off at all. To add to it, your last sentence in the post is just awful. It's tantamount to saying that Manning shouldn't be allowed to be comfortable and happy with her body and identity because the whole process is a humiliation, and nothing about the psychological affects of being in a gender position you don't identify with. Please, just stop.

EDIT:


I can see that easily happening as parts of the the LGBT movement seem to have been hijacked by pro-military, corporate interests.

So you don't want to be seen as making a 'giant sweeping statement about transgender people' but are happy to make a giant sweeping statement about a community they're a part of?

[adipocere]

Sam_b you're deliberately misconstruing my statements. Also:

Bradley Manning is off limits at SF Gay Pride parade, but corporate sleaze is embraced (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/27/bradley-manning-sf-gay-pride)

Military will have robust presence at Pride events (http://www.sfchronicle.com/lgbt/article/Military-will-have-robust-presence-at-Pride-events-4620000.php)

How Corporations are Profiting from Gay Pride (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/06/11/how-corporations-are-profiting-from-gay-pride)

http://sfpride.org/sponsors/sponsors.html

[Sam_b]

Sam_b you're deliberately misconstruing my statements.

How?

Also, showing me sources that are solely about Pride marches in the United States shows that you are indeed making a huge generalisation about our community. Last I checked we did more than just have a parade once a year.

[Paul Pott]

Sorry Sammy, looks like he's right. Large sections of the gay movement are nothing more than appendages of global liberalism.

[Sam_b]

Why are we liquidising down the LGBT (note, it's not "the gay movement") movement to be merely about Pride marches? Unless you can expand on the 'global liberalism' angle further.

[Paul Pott]

Why are we liquidising down the LGBT (note, it's not "the gay movement") movement to be merely about Pride marches? Unless you can expand on the 'global liberalism' angle further.



The pride march policies are a symptom of the nature of the movement. It shows that it desires little more than for gays to enter social life under capitalism as open gays and for the gay community to become another force within civil society (both of these already achieved), reflecting capital's interests - for our purposes here, patriotism and defense of American empire. It's the equivalent of bourgeois feminism which has as its aim more women in the corporate boardroom, and a sign that gay politics isn't "radical" anymore, in the west.

[Sam_b]

The pride march policies are a symptom of the nature of the movement

Please, tell me more about the movement then. Pride is not inherently some sort of reflection of it.

I'm asking this because I am unsure whether I should take someone that refers to the LBGT movement and community as 'gay politics' and 'the gays' particularly seriously as an authority on the subject.

EDIT: In addition, why do you make the distinction between feminism and 'bourgeois feminism' (which I guess you are by the nature of putting the term 'bourgeois' in front of it), yet just refer to 'gay politics' as something homogeneous?

[adipocere]

How?

Manning shouldn't be allowed to be comfortable and happy with her body and identity because the whole process is a humiliationI was quite obviously referring to Manning's torture and humiliation in prison. You deliberately misconstrued what I said.


Also, showing me sources that are solely about Pride marches in the United States shows that you are indeed making a huge generalisation about our community. Last I checked we did more than just have a parade once a year. I showed good sources. You might not think it's important, but other people do.

[Sam_b]

I was quite obviously referring to Manning's torture and humiliation in prison. You deliberately misconstrued what I said.

So was I - The whole process of trial and incarceration was what I was attempting to explicitly refer to. I was saying that this is not a good enough reason to deny someone a glimmer of comfort and happiness. So I have not 'deliberately misconstrued' what you have said at all, in fact you've not been able to explain why I would deliberately try and misconstrue you anyway.


I showed good sources

Sources that all refer to Pride in the United States.


You might not think it's important, but other people do.

I didn't say it wasn't (though nice deflection), nor did I dispute it. I was, however, pointing out that the LGBT movement is not merely Pride parades.

[Decolonize The Left]

The pride march policies are a symptom of the nature of the movement. It shows that it desires little more than for gays to enter social life under capitalism as open gays and for the gay community to become another force within civil society (both of these already achieved), reflecting capital's interests - for our purposes here, patriotism and defense of American empire. It's the equivalent of bourgeois feminism which has as its aim more women in the corporate boardroom, and a sign that gay politics isn't "radical" anymore, in the west.

Try it this way:
The equal rights policies are a symptom of the nature of the movement. It shows that it desires little more than for African-Americans to enter social life under capitalism as open black people and for the black community to become another force within civil society (both of these already achieved), reflecting capital's interests - for our purposes here, patriotism and defense of American empire. It's the equivalent of bourgeois feminism which has as its aim more women in the corporate boardroom, and a sign that racial politics isn't "radical" anymore, in the west.

You're adopting a far too rigid approach to social change. Yeah, we all know that capitalism is the 'big thing' to be focused on. But truth is that people like Chelsea Manning have to deal first and foremost with people telling her she can't be a she and ridiculing, ostracizing, abusing, discriminating, against her on those grounds before she can get around to looking at (let alone dealing with) the big picture.

White, straight, males (such as myself) can see 'the big picture' easily because our view is not clouded with many, many, layers of daily oppression and discrimination based on our race, sexual orientation, and gender.

[RedBen]

chelsea manning is one of the greatest heroes of our generation in america. she deserves freedom, and much more. i'm sure we all stand in solidarity with her.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

The pride march policies are a symptom of the nature of the movement. It shows that it desires little more than for gays to enter social life under capitalism as open gays and for the gay community to become another force within civil society (both of these already achieved), reflecting capital's interests - for our purposes here, patriotism and defense of American empire. It's the equivalent of bourgeois feminism which has as its aim more women in the corporate boardroom, and a sign that gay politics isn't "radical" anymore, in the west.

Dude. Did you miss Bash Back!?
Or, like, "We're here! We're queer! We're anarchists we'll fuck you up!"
Or, like every fucking Pride in every major city having a counter-event, like Pervers/Cité (http://www.nightlife.ca/arts-culture/perverscite-bringing-pride-back-its-origins-resistance) in Montreal, not to mention countless confrontation, anti-cop, anti-capitalist dyke/trans* marches?

For fucks sake.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It shows that it desires little more than for gays to enter social life under capitalism as open gays and for the gay community to become another force within civil society (both of these already achieved), reflecting capital's interests - for our purposes here, patriotism and defense of American empire. It's the equivalent of bourgeois feminism which has as its aim more women in the corporate boardroom, and a sign that gay politics isn't "radical" anymore, in the west.

Well, what would you do if you were gay? Wait for a promised Socialist revolution that never seems to come, or attempt to actually make society one in which you're not in physical, psychological, emotional, mental and sexual danger every time you step outside either by yourself or with your partner?

I don't think it is possible to criticise the LGBT movement for attempting to make their own lives better in the current system, just like we don't criticise fellow workers for trying to make their own lives better under capitalism.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Also, re the OP: I fear that this will just be used to 'out' Manning as weird, 'different', un-American and all that crap. Y'know, not the gun-toting, macho, all-American that is apparently befitting of an American soldier. :rolleyes:

[Tolstoy]

I hope the military does pay for him to recive horomone therapy. Id rather have my tax dollars pay for that than aid to Israel

[Orange Juche]

Why are we liquidising down the LGBT (note, it's not "the gay movement") movement to be merely about Pride marches? Unless you can expand on the 'global liberalism' angle further.

Ask any trans or bisexual person and, yes, it essentially is "the gay movement" despite whatever letters it uses. (I'd argue this has to do with the people in positions of power in organizations in the movement, etc, and not everyday LGBT people. The "Bank of America Pride" culture.)

[Sam_b]

Ask any trans or bisexual person and, yes, it essentially is "the gay movement" despite whatever letters it uses.

There is a definite hierarchy in LGBTQ politics where the face of it are almost always gay white men, but let's be honest here - is this really what Paul Pott is referring to here? Of course he isn't, he's just doing his thing of balancing ignorance and reductionism.

[Comrade Samuel]

I guess this raises some awareness for an issue equal in importance to what we usually think when we hear the name "Bradley Manning" but when I received this information originally it was more of a side note to how she completely cracked and submitted to the government begging for forgiveness and babbling on and on about how wrong it was to leak all of those documents.

I'm a little bit disappointed but hey, one door closed and another opened, right?

[Ele'ill]

Dude. Did you miss Bash Back!?
Or, like, "We're here! We're queer! We're anarchists we'll fuck you up!"
Or, like every fucking Pride in every major city having a counter-event, like Pervers/Cité (http://www.nightlife.ca/arts-culture/perverscite-bringing-pride-back-its-origins-resistance) in Montreal, not to mention countless confrontation, anti-cop, anti-capitalist dyke/trans* marches?

For fucks sake.


Ask any trans or bisexual person and, yes, it essentially is "the gay movement" despite whatever letters it uses. (I'd argue this has to do with the people in positions of power in organizations in the movement, etc, and not everyday LGBT people. The "Bank of America Pride" culture.)

I honestly thought this is what Paul Pott was referring to.

[Bea Arthur]

Good for her! I, for one, think that she is a beautiful young woman!

[Invader Zim]

Well, that's not the impression you're giving off at all. To add to it, your last sentence in the post is just awful. It's tantamount to saying that Manning shouldn't be allowed to be comfortable and happy with her body and identity because the whole process is a humiliation, and nothing about the psychological affects of being in a gender position you don't identify with. Please, just stop.


This is just rubbish, as much as I think the poster in question has appalling politics (if their avatar is anything to go by), they clearly were not trying to attach trans-people or deny them their right to their identity and happiness. The poster did not mean what you're suggesting of him/her and that the intent behind the post was and is obviously innocent of what you suggest, even if the wording was ill-advised all the more so given the poisonously hostile ambience of this board. What adipocere did wrong was to speculate without full awareness of Manning's backstory - and nothing more. Your 'reading' strikes me as a sadly typical tactic on this board; attacking others for minor slips of the tongue as an easy method of emphasising your own ideological purity as a substitute for actually having something worthwhile saying.

Compare what you have written to what Le Socialiste has written: s/he explained, without hostility why the comment was factually problematic in the light of Manning's conclusions regarding her gender since childhood. You on the other hand used it as ammunition to attack a poster with less than 100 posts and clearly still learning the ropes of this board. What you are doing is the equivalent of a much older schoolyard bully picking on a small child for a breach of playground etiquette. Please, just stop.

[Sam_b]

Lecturing me on some sort of etiquette is rather ironic coming from you. You also don't seen to have any idea of what "impression" means.

[Invader Zim]

Lecturing me on some sort of etiquette is rather ironic coming from you. You also don't seen to have any idea of what "impression" means.

I guess you must still be sore because I thought an article published by your organisation could have done with a solid proof read. Really, get over it.

I know precisely what 'impression' means, and you have obviously gained the wrong impression, because your reading of adipocere's posts is divorced from what it actually says. When adipocere then explained to you the point s/he was trying to make you continued to stick to your guns. In short, you're being an ass to a new member for no reason other than to stroke your ego, unless your ability to comprehend the English language is really as limited as you suggest.

Oh, and I don't see the irony. I reserve my scorn/hostility to members who have been here long enough to know better than to lay into the new members. And unsurprisingly, you like to dish it out but you can't take it.