Syrian Rebels claim Assad used gas for the 458th time.

[Paul Pott]

Apparently they long for the good old days of 2012, when the west's attention was focused on them.

http://news.antiwar.com/2013/08/21/syrian-rebels-claim-hundreds-killed-in-chemical-weapons-attack/

[Sir Comradical]

It appears to be another false flag operation. Why else would the government carry out a gas attack in plain view of the UN weapons inspectors in Damascus?

Please note also that so far the strongest evidence has pointed to the rebels as the ones using CW.


"Firstly, the timing is odd, bordering on suspicious. Why would the Assad government, which has recently been retaking ground from the rebels, carry out a chemical attack while UN weapons inspectors are in the country?"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23777201

My question for those with military knowledge, what are the weapons needed to launch a gas attack and kill several hundred people?

How are these attacks usually carried out in a war situation?

[Paul Pott]

My thwead was foist.

[Sir Comradical]

Ahh sorry, maybe they can merge them?

[khad]

As others have noted, the motive for the government using chemical weapons now, immediately after the arrival of inspectors and so close to the capital, is flimsy. Furthermore, the fight in the district was nearly finished with the government isolating and destroying several large insurgent concentrations. What sense would it make to use chemicals now when the outcome of the battle is not in question? The majority of the Ghouta district is under SAA control.

http://i.imgur.com/HNKMtQ7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1plZO81.jpg

The alleged delivery vehicle. Looks like a homemade rocket. It's not 100% conclusive evidence either way, but let's just say that one side has been using a lot more improvised weaponry on the battlefield.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vKVa9uOmTJM/UhTo0IdRt_I/AAAAAAAAFDE/0ia3DQZWtcI/s1600/IMAG1015.jpg

Also, you may or may not remember last year, but the Syrian rebels showed off their chemical weapons laboratories on youtube, together with some live testing on rabbits. [TRIGGER WARNING]

H-6O-gApVrU

[piet11111]

My question for those with military knowledge, what are the weapons needed to launch a gas attack and kill several hundred people?

How are these attacks usually carried out in a war situation?

Usually by missiles or artillery shells or air dropped bombs.

The problem is how to make any such gas or chemical spread effectively through the air without it burning up on impact or hitting the ground like a water balloon.

The Syrian army has been in possession of these weapons for decades and learned how to make and use them from the soviets if i am not mistaken.
But this attack seems to me to be some attempt using a home made delivery system instead of a military one.

This seems more like the sarin gas attack in tokyo then saddams gassing of the kurds.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

does anyone have any 'evidence'? its being reported as if it actually happened and i don't buy it.

[Sasha]

to all the people who say "no way assad would do this now", may i remind you dictators are absolutely not the least delusional people in the world, Saddam not only seriously believed he could get away with conquering Kuwait he then used that failure of accurate assessment to convince himself that the US would not actually invade the second time around. and i believe a certain Stalin not only refused to believe that the Nazi's would invade Russia he even hold out on believing they did.
these are not rational people, i can certainly see Assad doing this now after getting away with butchering thousand of his ppl for 2 years without any real international opposition and russia and china having his back at every turn.
but only time will tell...

[piet11111]

to all the people who say "no way assad would do this now", may i remind you dictators are absolutely not the least delusional people in the world, Saddam not only seriously believed he could get away with conquering Kuwait he then used that failure of accurate assessment to convince himself that the US would not actually invade the second time around. and i believe a certain Stalin not only refused to believe that the Nazi's would invade Russia he even hold out on believing they did.
these are not rational people, i can certainly see Assad doing this now after getting away with butchering thousand of his ppl for 2 years without any real international opposition and russia and china having his back at every turn.
but only time will tell...

Fair enough but would the Syrian army make such poor use of their chemical weapons ?

This seems more similar to the sarin gas attack on the tokyo metro system then saddams gassing of the kurds.

[Sasha]

halabja killed between 3 and 5000 people in an all out attack with multiple different agents on an unexpected civilian zone
The five-hour attack began early in the evening of March 16, 1988, following a series of indiscriminate conventional (rocket and napalm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm)) attacks, when Iraqi MiG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiG#List_of_MiG_aircraft) and Mirage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_%28aircraft%29) aircraft began dropping chemical bombs on Halabja's residential areas, far from the besieged Iraqi army base on the outskirts of the town. According to regional Kurdish rebel commanders, Iraqi aircraft conducted up to 14 bombings in sorties of seven to eight planes each; helicopters coordinating the operation were also seen. Eyewitnesses told of clouds of smoke billowing upward "white, black and then yellow"', rising as a column about 150 feet (46 m) in the air.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack#cite_note-die-1)
Survivors said the gas at first smelled of sweet apples;[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack#cite_note-10) they said people died in a number of ways, suggesting a combination of toxic chemicals (some of the victims "just dropped dead" while others "died of laughing"; while still others took a few minutes to die, first "burning and blistering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blister)" or coughing up green vomit).[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack#cite_note-kurds-11) It is believed that Iraqi forces used multiple chemical agents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_agents) during the attack, including mustard gas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard_gas) and the nerve agents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerve_agent) sarin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin), tabun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabun_%28nerve_agent%29) and VX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_%28nerve_agent%29);[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack#cite_note-dlawer.net-3) some sources have also pointed to the blood agent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_agent) hydrogen cyanide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_cyanide) (most of the wounded taken to hospitals in the Iranian capital Tehran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehran) were suffering from mustard gas exposure).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack#cite_note-die-1)

first reports now from the middle of a raging civilwar zone say that already more than 500 people where killed, that doesnt sound that low and inefficient for a bunch of mortars fired at rebel held front positions.

[piet11111]

500 ?

So far i was under the impression it was a few dozen at most and along with the video of the supposed victims it seemed very suspect.

[DDR]

500 ?

So far i was under the impression it was a few dozen at most and along with the video of the supposed victims it seemed very suspect.

In the spanish news it sais something like 1600. I dunno, but Ockham's razor dictates that is hihgly unlikely that Assad has something to do with all this.

[Sasha]

Parool has a picture with dozens of shrouded bodies on the front page, the syrian rebels are claiming more than a thousand died, most reporters I read are keeping it at 500+ but are not really give sources for those numbers.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I dunno how many people have died, but yesterday morning there were apparently loads of different sources posting up pictures, videos of kids foaming at the mouth etc. at a similar time, something which it was pointed out would be quite difficult to co-ordinate if it was a hoax.

But, y'know, you anti-imps continue to blithely ignore the evidence until it's 100% proof, right? Because darling Assad would never use chemical weapons, despite the various videos of civilians and children displaying classic symptoms of nerve gas poisoning. Politics, fucking politics.

None of these people - Assad or most of the rebels - deserve to be in charge of a country. Fucking lunatics, the lot of them.

[Sir Comradical]

Syriangirl Partisan, who has a youtube account and posts regularly on Syria, had this to say about the specifics of the chemical attack.


"It might be a good time to reveal now that I'm a Chemist. What I've said many times over the past 6 month about other so called sarin attacks, and on yesterday is the effects of a nerve agent such as Sarin on the nervous system is not consistent with the Symptoms of victims. Sarin kills you by stopping your brains ability to tell your heart muscle to keep pumping, It's called a nerve agent because it effects the nervous system. It does not suffocated you to death, it stops your heart beating. Furthermore a gas mask will not protect you because it is absorbed through the flesh. And it would kill thousands. Corroborating this is "Jean Pascal Zanders, an independent researcher who specialises in chemical and biological weapons and disarmament, said that in videos of the aftermath of the attacks, the hue of the victims' faces appeared to show many suffered from asphyxiation (suffocation).

However, he said the symptoms they exhibited were not consistent with mustard gas or the nerve agents VX or sarin.

Mustard gas would cause blistering of the skin and discoloration, while the nerve agents would produce severe convulsions in the victims and also affect the paramedics treating them - neither of which was evident from the videos or reports.

"I'm deliberately not using the term chemical weapons here,'' he said. "There's plenty of other nasty stuff that was used in the past as a chemical warfare agent, so many industrial toxicants could be used too.'' - This is important, because obviously industrial chemicals are far more easy to acquire than Sarin."

Thoughts?

[Sasha]

Syriangirl Partisan, who has a youtube account and posts regularly on Syria, had this to say about the specifics of the chemical attack.



Thoughts?

I hear conflicting things about sarin symptoms, since I'm not ab chemical weapons expert I don't feel comfertable to say either way. I do know that sarin, while having a huge deadly potential is notoriously difficult to refine and spread because of the short half/shelf life (the Tokyo subway attacks even with their optimal target and years of research and planning also didn't kill thousands and that sect where really no amateurs), if it was easy, terrorists would use it way more often.

Edit; looking at Wikipedia that Syriangirl Partisan is at least full of shit,sarin does primarily affect the breathing function, what she claims are the caresteristics of sarin are way more similar to VX

[The Feral Underclass]

^It affects the 'breathing function' by shutting down the nervous system, but what she says is also correct.

[khad]

I would be very surprised if this were sarin. Sarin collects on clothes, and yet you see these rebel medical "professionals" handling these victims with their bare hands. There's also no diarrhea or vomiting, which would be signs of the nervous system going haywire.

Having reviewed the videos, I would say that, in my unprofessional opinion, the symptoms are more consistent with classic aphyxiants like chlorine, phosgene, or diphosgene, all of which are typically not weaponized today but are available in sizable quantities for industrial purposes.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I dunno how many people have died, but yesterday morning there were apparently loads of different sources posting up pictures, videos of kids foaming at the mouth etc. at a similar time, something which it was pointed out would be quite difficult to co-ordinate if it was a hoax.

But, y'know, you anti-imps continue to blithely ignore the evidence until it's 100% proof, right? Because darling Assad would never use chemical weapons, despite the various videos of civilians and children displaying classic symptoms of nerve gas poisoning. Politics, fucking politics.

None of these people - Assad or most of the rebels - deserve to be in charge of a country. Fucking lunatics, the lot of them.
if you don't know, then you don't know...

[greenforest]

Galloway is saying rebels and al-Qaeda, supplied by Israel, were responsible.

Anyways thoughts?

[Le Socialiste]

Galloway is saying rebels and al-Qaeda, supplied by Israel, were responsible.

Anyways thoughts?

Sounds legit.

Edit - In all honesty, that's a ridiculous assertion. Then again, I'm not one to take George Galloway seriously to begin with.

[Paul Pott]

Of all the actors who could have done it, the Syrian government stands to benefit the least.

[Hiero]

I dunno how many people have died, but yesterday morning there were apparently loads of different sources posting up pictures, videos of kids foaming at the mouth etc. at a similar time, something which it was pointed out would be quite difficult to co-ordinate if it was a hoax.

But, y'know, you anti-imps continue to blithely ignore the evidence until it's 100% proof, right? Because darling Assad would never use chemical weapons, despite the various videos of civilians and children displaying classic symptoms of nerve gas poisoning. Politics, fucking politics.

None of these people - Assad or most of the rebels - deserve to be in charge of a country. Fucking lunatics, the lot of them.

I think you have forgotten or maybe were too young to remember the build up to the Iraq war, we were constantly shown evidence of Sadam's 'wmd' arsenal up until and continuing through the occupation of Iraq. Even the world powers have not yet jumped on Syria, Australia, France, USA and the UK keep saying 'If Syria has used chemical weapons'. When the international enemies are being reserved about allegations of chemical use, I think it is prudent that we can be reserved as well.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I think you have forgotten or maybe were too young to remember the build up to the Iraq war, we were constantly shown evidence of Sadam's 'wmd' arsenal up until and continuing through the occupation of Iraq. Even the world powers have not yet jumped on Syria, Australia, France, USA and the UK keep saying 'If Syria has used chemical weapons'. When the international enemies are being reserved about allegations of chemical use, I think it is prudent that we can be reserved as well.

I wasn't too young, but thanks.

The thing is, then there was a huge motivation to find WMD - the 'war on terror' needed a person to hang, so to speak, and Bush et al. had already asserted that Saddam was hiding/supplying Al Qaeda. It was like a head on a plate for him.

But with Syria, as far as I know, before 2011, Assad's regime wasn't on un-friendly terms with the West. In fact I remember the media lauding him as this young reformer and a media-friendly moderate.

I'm not sure there is the appetite amongst politicians, nor the ability of their militaries, for the imperial countries to stage another invasion or occupation in Syria. And, as this time there are no dodgy dossiers, with the (admittedly circumstantial) evidence coming from inside Syria itself, I don't really 'smell a rat'. I don't think the US or UK want to go into Syria; they can't really occupy it like they did/are doing Iraq/Afghanistan as the rebels constitute an opposition political force.

At most, I imagine air strikes and UN peacekeeper/adviser types will be the 'force' that would come about from this, and stepping up support for the rebels. I can't see a ground invasion or occupation.

[Red HalfGuard]

But, y'know, you anti-imps continue to blithely ignore the evidence until it's 100% proof, right? Because darling Assad would never use chemical weapons, despite the various videos of civilians and children displaying classic symptoms of nerve gas poisoning. Politics, fucking politics.

Nobody's claiming CWs weren't used. Everyone with a lick of sense is saying that it makes no sense for Assad to invite UN inspectors and then use them right after they arrive.



None of these people - Assad or most of the rebels - deserve to be in charge of a country. Fucking lunatics, the lot of them.

Classic patholigization of third world leaders the USA doesn't like ("Kim Jong Un is crazy! We must bomb North Korea I mean stop him!"). It's dismaying but not surprising to see so-called revolutionary communists mindlessly parroting imperialist war propaganda. Meanwhile, in the real world:

http://creativesyria.com/syriapage/?p=150
http://www.worldtribune.com/2013/05/31/nato-data-assad-winning-the-war-for-syrians-hearts-and-minds/

[Skyhilist]

Ugh, this shit is so stupid. Both sides completely suck and I'm tired of hearing about how completely horrible both of them are. No good is going to come out of supporting either side. Fuck them both.

[adipocere]

http://creativesyria.com/syriapage/?p=150


Thanks for that link, in particular. It's hard to find anything that even attempts to be objective.

[Turinbaar]

Why hasn't the Syrian government approved a UN inspection of this latest attack if they have already invited the inspectors in?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Galloway is saying rebels and al-Qaeda, supplied by Israel, were responsible.

Anyways thoughts?

Galloway would blame his runny shits on Israel if he thought his political followers would be dumb enough to believe him.

[MarxSchmarx]

Galloway is saying rebels and al-Qaeda, supplied by Israel, were responsible.

Anyways thoughts?

http://www.nwkite.com/forums/files/fry-not-sure-if-trolling_191.jpg

But in the event that you are serious, the Israelis are the last people to be involved in anything in Syria.

Tel Aviv/Jeruslaem knows that if push came to shove they have a direct line with which they could call Assad, ask him "what the hell is this shit" and proceed from there. They have been working the syrian government for years, and they know how it operates and how to get the intel they need.

With the FSA, they have no such leverage whatsover. They could try to go through Turkey and see what they could get, but the Israelis know it's a fishing expedition.

Israeli intelligence is good, but not that good.

[piet11111]

Why hasn't the Syrian government approved a UN inspection of this latest attack if they have already invited the inspectors in?

Well the area where it took place is in rebel hands and the Syrian government can not guarantee their safety.

At least that would be a reasonable explanation.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Isn't the idea that Israel and Mossad can get away with random conspiracies across the world an obviously (if implicitly) antisemitic belief? Didn't the protocols of the elders of zion get exposed as bunk? Not to say Mossad isn't a capable, organized and lethal intelligence organization but some people will attribute pretty much anything to them.

[kashkin]

Classic patholigization of third world leaders the USA doesn't like ("Kim Jong Un is crazy! We must bomb North Korea I mean stop him!"). It's dismaying but not surprising to see so-called revolutionary communists mindlessly parroting imperialist war propaganda.

Or maybe people don't like supporting every tinpot third world dictator the US happens to dislike. Just because they are at loggerheads with America doesn't make then any good, or supportable.

[Red HalfGuard]

A hearty el oh el at anyone who calls Assad a "tin pot dictator" (what Dave Barry book did you get that out of?) but supports the "Free" "Syrian" Army. I'm sure a bunch of Salafis and Qatari funded mercenaries are gonna bring democracy and socialism to Syria!

[Red HalfGuard]

Re: The FSA and Israel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V67f_e6pqEs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCBdU_4Ufjo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6S0akZTH_o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hBl5uqqY1g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxu-Jqg7yI8

Noone here's claiming that Jabat Al Nusrah were made out of whole cloth in Tel Aviv. But there's a clear convergence of goals there.

To say that the Israelis are in alliance with Assad right now is absurd. Assad backed the PFLP with arms for years and Hezbollah are currently fighting against the rebels alongside the SAA.

[Turinbaar]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23833912

they've let in the inspectors

[Onecom]

As i stated in another topic its strange no one seems to care about the recently captured rebel tunnels full of chemical containers,weapons,and gasmasks.

Credible sources say that the majority of the gas attacks in the past were done by the rebels,by either using chlorine or something else i can`t recall atm.

[Paul Pott]

Well it's not news that the rebels have chemical weapons.

[Sir Comradical]

"Testimony from victims strongly suggests it was the rebels, not the Syrian government, that used Sarin nerve gas during a recent incident in the revolution-wracked nation, a senior U.N. diplomat said Monday."

Just to clarify:

"IT WAS THE REBELS, NOT THE SYRIAN GOVERNMENT, THAT USED SARIN NERVE GAS"

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/6/syrian-rebels-used-sarin-nerve-gas-not-assads-regi

*EDIT*

My mistake, didn't see the date. Sorry. Ignore this post.

[Paul Pott]

"Testimony from victims strongly suggests it was the rebels, not the Syrian government, that used Sarin nerve gas during a recent incident in the revolution-wracked nation, a senior U.N. diplomat said Monday."

Just to clarify:

"IT WAS THE REBELS, NOT THE SYRIAN GOVERNMENT, THAT USED SARIN NERVE GAS"

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/6/syrian-rebels-used-sarin-nerve-gas-not-assads-regi

Uh, I'm not sure if you're aware, but that's from May.

[Hiero]

I wasn't too young, but thanks.

The thing is, then there was a huge motivation to find WMD - the 'war on terror' needed a person to hang, so to speak, and Bush et al. had already asserted that Saddam was hiding/supplying Al Qaeda. It was like a head on a plate for him.

But with Syria, as far as I know, before 2011, Assad's regime wasn't on un-friendly terms with the West. In fact I remember the media lauding him as this young reformer and a media-friendly moderate.

I'm not sure there is the appetite amongst politicians, nor the ability of their militaries, for the imperial countries to stage another invasion or occupation in Syria. And, as this time there are no dodgy dossiers, with the (admittedly circumstantial) evidence coming from inside Syria itself, I don't really 'smell a rat'. I don't think the US or UK want to go into Syria; they can't really occupy it like they did/are doing Iraq/Afghanistan as the rebels constitute an opposition political force.

At most, I imagine air strikes and UN peacekeeper/adviser types will be the 'force' that would come about from this, and stepping up support for the rebels. I can't see a ground invasion or occupation.


I agree with everything you said, but I didn't mean to imply that Syria is going to go the same way as Iraq, with a Western led occupation. Rather what I was saying is the grounds for making a claim that a country has used chemical weapons are different to the times of Iraq. The US, France and the UK may be hesitant to claim that they have accurate reports that Syrian armed forces have used chemical weapons because they don't want to over commit to a ground invasion. But also learning their lesson from Iraq, the whole political community would be apprehensive of making claims without accurate proof. However I don't see why they wouldn't, if they had accurate proof they would just present, and they backtrack about 'crossing the red line' or reinterpreting what that means.
I find it interesting that the world politics around this issue has developed into a show boating of theoretical objection, if there was chemical weapons used, without any clarification what it all means and the consequences for either side if they use chemical weapons.

[Sir Comradical]

Question. Does Russia have the military capability to prevent NATO bombing Syria by for example intercepting a missile? How would an armed attack on Syria work logistically? Would it be from the Mediterranean?

[Sasha]

They might have but they won't, they don't care about Syria, they care about their own geopolitical influence, they will at some moment probably intervene military in a country they care more about than NATO instead. Georgia or something.

[Sasha]

If an attack happens it will probably mostly be SCUD misles from vessels in the mediteranian though maybe the Turks (with the maybe the French) will get involved a bit deeper, no boots on the ground i expect but maybe enforce a "no fly zone" and the bombing of atilery positions

[piet11111]

Question. Does Russia have the military capability to prevent NATO bombing Syria by for example intercepting a missile? How would an armed attack on Syria work logistically? Would it be from the Mediterranean?

Well the S-300 system and tor-m1 can intercept missiles like the tomahawk but i do not know if syria has those.

I do know that the tor-m1 is owned by Iran and the S-300 is purchased by them but maybe not yet delivered. (just mentioned this because in the end this whole Syria deal is about Iran anyway)


Scud missiles against Syria ?
The Scud is basically a modern V-2 rocket any western aligned country will use tomahawks.

[Sasha]

Yeah, sorry, that was what I meant, tomohawks...

[Red HalfGuard]

Russia sold Syria a bunch of S-300s

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

[QUOTE=Red HalfGuard;2655598]Nobody's claiming CWs weren't used. Everyone with a lick of sense is saying that it makes no sense for Assad to invite UN inspectors and then use them right after they arrive.

It doesn't make a difference. The UN inspectors can only tell whether or not chemical weapons were used, they cannot say which side used them. The timing of the UN inspectors being there doesn't make it any more or less likely that either side would or would not use chemical weapons.




Classic patholigization of third world leaders the USA doesn't like ("Kim Jong Un is crazy! We must bomb North Korea I mean stop him!").

Why are you bringing up the USA? I'm not American. But yeah, we aren't even talking about North Korea, we are talking about a third-world capitalist dictatorship, Syria, in the midst of civil war. Your third-world, anti-Amerikkkkkkka (rraaaaaaadikkal) bullshit has nothing to do with that.



It's dismaying but not surprising to see so-called revolutionary communists mindlessly parroting imperialist war propaganda. Meanwhile, in the real world:

Yeah, anybody who doesn't fly the red flag for Assad is clearly parroting (mindlessly, I might add, since my mind has OBVIOUSLY deserted me) imperial war propaganda. I clearly don't have ANY ability to comprehend logical thought processes through a communist perspective since, obviously, if I did then the ONLY conclusion I could come to would be that Assad should be praised to the hilt, and given free rein to use whatever weapons he wants against Syrian workers fighting against his dictatorship, amongst the otherwise reactionary rebel forces.



http://creativesyria.com/syriapage/?p=150
http://www.worldtribune.com/2013/05/31/nato-data-assad-winning-the-war-for-syrians-hearts-and-minds/

So what are these links? Since when did populism = Socialism? Al Qaeda are/were, in some places, relatively popular. That doesn't stop them from being reactionary, murdering pieces of shit. Barack Obama has the support of over half of the US population. George Bush did too (sort of). Popularity proves very little and, in a country that has been in civil war for two years, it is probably an unreliable indicator of anything, anyway, since tribal politics is bound to set in.

Why are we even debating Assad's popularity? He's not a communist, he's no friend of the workers. He's as bad as the rebels and quite frankly he and them, and NATO and America, all deserve each other.

[khad]

It doesn't make a difference. The UN inspectors can only tell whether or not chemical weapons were used, they cannot say which side used them. The timing of the UN inspectors being there doesn't make it any more or less likely that either side would or would not use chemical weapons.I would like to kindly point out that this is bullshit.

There's a lot to be gained from forensic analysis, due to standard practices, training, and techniques in construction of delivery devices. There are remains of a claimed delivery device as well as claims of chemical components discovered in the district--one can learn a lot from those. It's chemistry, not fucking magic.

Of course, none of this matters, because the last time the UN even suggested that the rebels used chemical weapons, it quickly recanted and muzzled its lead investigator.

[Red HalfGuard]

[QUOTE]
Why are you bringing up the USA? I'm not American. But yeah, we aren't even talking about North Korea, we are talking about a third-world capitalist dictatorship, Syria, in the midst of civil war. Your third-world, anti-Amerikkkkkkka (rraaaaaaadikkal) bullshit has nothing to do with that. If you don't see the similarities in that pattern that's your fault, not mine.



Yeah, anybody who doesn't fly the red flag for Assad is clearly parroting (mindlessly, I might add, since my mind has OBVIOUSLY deserted me) imperial war propaganda. I clearly don't have ANY ability to comprehend logical thought processes through a communist perspective since, obviously, if I did then the ONLY conclusion I could come to would be that Assad should be praised to the hilt, and given free rein to use whatever weapons he wants against Syrian workers fighting against his dictatorship, amongst the otherwise reactionary rebel forces. Well i'm glad you're being honest here, but you're still a little delusional. There's no left opposition among the Syrian Rebels because principled communists don't take money from the USA and Israel. There's no good guy for you to find among the rebels. In many places, Jan and AaS are the FSA (as in Aleppo, where they formally merged).

But please enlighten me: What does "[not] giving him free reign" mean?



So what are these links? Since when did populism = Socialism? Al Qaeda are/were, in some places, relatively popular. That doesn't stop them from being reactionary, murdering pieces of shit. Barack Obama has the support of over half of the US population. George Bush did too (sort of). Popularity proves very little and, in a country that has been in civil war for two years, it is probably an unreliable indicator of anything, anyway, since tribal politics is bound to set in."Tribal politics" lol classic Orientalism there, thinking that they can't engage in a political struggle without being all tribal and shit.

But what it does prove is that the Syrian people get what you don't: That Assad, while he may not be perfect or even nice, is better than the rebels. As SyrianGirlPartisan says here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrEPadG0pQk

But go on thinking that she's the same as the reactionary rebel death squads.



Why are we even debating Assad's popularity? He's not a communist, he's no friend of the workers. He's as bad as the rebels and quite frankly he and them, and NATO and America, all deserve each other.You saw it here first comrades, the left dies the death of a thousand relativistic fallacies.

[The Douche]

Well it appears the US Dept. of State has decided the Assad government was responsible for the attack:


Mr. Kerry said President Obama “will be making an informed decision about how to respond to this indiscriminate use of chemical weapons.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/27/world/middleeast/syria-assad.html?pagewanted=all

[Kassad]

I'm excited to watch the pseudo-left squirm in either lining up behind Assad's reactionary regime or capitulating to U.S. imperialism. Authentic Marxists should unconditionally defend Syria military against imperialism while acknowledging that only the working class can pave the way forward for Syria.

The Internationalist Group on the storm brewing over Syria: http://www.internationalist.org/usbloodyclawsoffsyria1307.html


To replace bonapartist “secular” regimes like Assad’s and to bar the way to Islamic reaction and communal slaughter, authentic communists who adhere to the program of Lenin and Trotsky’s Bolsheviks fight for workers revolution throughout the Levant, from the Mediterranean to Central Asia. The only framework in which the conflicting claims of the myriad nations, nationalities, peoples and religious minorities, from Kurds and Alawites to the Hebrew-speaking population in Palestine can be equitably resolved is a socialist federation of the Middle East. This is what the League for the Fourth International fights for.

[khad]

Well it appears the US Dept. of State has decided the Assad government was responsible for the attack:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/27/world/middleeast/syria-assad.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/27/us-syria-crisis-usa-kerry-idUSBRE97P0RJ20130827

"Information gathered so far, including videos and accounts from the ground, indicate that the use of chemical weapons in Syria was "undeniable," Kerry said, adding that it was the Syrian government that maintained custody of the weapons and had the rockets capable of delivering them."
H-6O-gApVrU

Sole custody? LOL

[The Douche]

I mean, did anyone expect the US to announce it was the rebels?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Man, I haven't been paying all that much attention to what's been happening in Syria lately, but I unfortunately tuned into American cable news today and WOW, the raw propaganda is really being piled on thick. Sooooo predictable. That douche John Kerry getting up at the podium and gravely intoning about chemical weapons and that belligerent madman Assad who had the gall to allow UN inspectors into Damascus, only to later greet them with sniper fire lol

[Paul Pott]

The "pseudo left" are those who think they have the right to sit on the fence and grandstand about how neither side is the revolutionary working class in arms when yet another country is about to be attacked and destroyed.

As leftists, we must oppose the lies of empire and its media. Unconditionally. But hey, leftists gonna left.

[kashkin]

A hearty el oh el at anyone who calls Assad a "tin pot dictator" (what Dave Barry book did you get that out of?) but supports the "Free" "Syrian" Army. I'm sure a bunch of Salafis and Qatari funded mercenaries are gonna bring democracy and socialism to Syria!

I have never heard of Dave Barry, but oh please spare me your witticisms. I never said I supported the FSA, and anyway it is wrong to talk of them as if they are a homogenous organisation. And I'm sure a bunch of Lebanese and Iranian Shiites mercenaries are going to bring democracy and socialism (who even says the FSA are fighting for socialism? Stop making things up) to Syria.


The "pseudo left" are those who think they have the right to sit on the fence and grandstand about how neither side is the revolutionary working class in arms when yet another country is about to be attacked and destroyed.

As leftists, we must oppose the lies of empire and its media. Unconditionally. But hey, leftists gonna left.

There is a difference between opposing foreign intervention* and giving full fledged support for Assad. Some people seem to mix the two.

* But Hezbollah and Iranian soldiers fighting for Assad are okay, right?

[adipocere]

* But Hezbollah and Iranian soldiers fighting for Assad are okay, right?
I think you are making a false analogy.

[piet11111]

I would like to kindly point out that this is bullshit.

There's a lot to be gained from forensic analysis, due to standard practices, training, and techniques in construction of delivery devices. There are remains of a claimed delivery device as well as claims of chemical components discovered in the district--one can learn a lot from those. It's chemistry, not fucking magic.

Of course, none of this matters, because the last time the UN even suggested that the rebels used chemical weapons, it quickly recanted and muzzled its lead investigator.

Exactly Syria's methods of producing such weapons are well documented and because Syria has facility's to produce them can make a chemically clean version.
Any home made brew would probably have some contaminants or other tells like not having some additives to increase shelf life.

But just fyi im not a chemist but what i typed above seems likely to me.

[khad]

Alleged sarin gas missile, being paraded around in a crowd with bare hands, recorded 3 days ago:

jxKd5KA16t4

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

The "pseudo left" are those who think they have the right to sit on the fence and grandstand about how neither side is the revolutionary working class in arms when yet another country is about to be attacked and destroyed.

As leftists, we must oppose the lies of empire and its media. Unconditionally. But hey, leftists gonna left.

Uhh what are the actual real world results of this opposition given that it all takes place from behind a keyboard? No one cares about your opposition or support.

On another note, remember when Kerry was the 'anti-war' candidate? Haha

[TheEmancipator]

The "pseudo left" are those who think they have the right to sit on the fence and grandstand about how neither side is the revolutionary working class in arms when yet another country is about to be attacked and destroyed.

As leftists, we must oppose the lies of empire and its media. Unconditionally. But hey, leftists gonna left.

I would say the pseudo-left are those intent on hating on America and the West instead of any kind of rational analysis of the type of crisis Syria is dealing with.

"My enemy's enemy is my friend" is ironically something imperialists tend to engage in. Looks like these guys who like to wave Kim Jong-il portraits and think they're tough because they like Mao are engaging in the same mindless theory as the US war machine has done before they were born.

My view is that so long as American troops are not on the ground, I'm happy to see Assad's regime topppled and watch the revolution play out. This is a normal stage of liberal bourgeois revolution that will eventually lead to the proleterian one. Just so long as the islamists are kept out, which I think they will be.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

That's probably not a whole lot of consolation for the people about to be turned into collateral damage. May Syria turn into a graveyard for Assad, the islamists and NATO

[piet11111]

Alleged sarin gas missile, being paraded around in a crowd with bare hands, recorded 3 days ago:

jxKd5KA16t4

What the hell are they doing ?

Seems to me they are celebrating that missile :blink:

[DDR]

My view is that so long as American troops are not on the ground, I'm happy to see Assad's regime topppled and watch the revolution play out. This is a normal stage of liberal bourgeois revolution that will eventually lead to the proleterian one. Just so long as the islamists are kept out, which I think they will be.

Because that was just happened in Lybia, didn't it?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

My view is that so long as American troops are not on the ground, I'm happy to see Assad's regime topppled and watch the revolution play out. This is a normal stage of liberal bourgeois revolution that will eventually lead to the proleterian one. Just so long as the islamists are kept out, which I think they will be.
wow...

[khad]

What the hell are they doing ?

Seems to me they are celebrating that missile :blink:
I can tell you one thing--that ain't no sarin missile.

[Rss]

I would say the pseudo-left are those intent on hating on America and the West instead of any kind of rational analysis of the type of crisis Syria is dealing with.

"My enemy's enemy is my friend" is ironically something imperialists tend to engage in. Looks like these guys who like to wave Kim Jong-il portraits and think they're tough because they like Mao are engaging in the same mindless theory as the US war machine has done before they were born.

My view is that so long as American troops are not on the ground, I'm happy to see Assad's regime topppled and watch the revolution play out. This is a normal stage of liberal bourgeois revolution that will eventually lead to the proleterian one. Just so long as the islamists are kept out, which I think they will be.

Yay! Let the Tomahawks fly! Are you kidding me?

Some of the most influential rebel group are virulently fundamentalist. It's not like they are going to let any genuine leftists come over and take charge. I bet these guys set up a central bank at the first moment Assad shows weakness, like they did in Libya.
I'm not cheerleading for Assad btw.

[rednordman]

Is there any evidence suggesting that if the rebels where to get power, Syria would become anything other than a fundamentalist Islamic dictatorship? Sorry if that sounds reactionary just i don't see how that scenario would make life any better for Syrians. And thus, i dont see why there is all this hardened support for the Syrian rebels from the rest of the world. They have proven themselves to be equally as bad as the government forces. The only difference is that the government forces are better armed.

[Sasha]

Blasts in the Night, a Smell, and a Flood of Syrian Victims

By BEN HUBBARD, MARK MAZZETTI (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/mark_mazzetti/index.html) and MARK LANDLER (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/mark_landler/index.html)

BEIRUT, Lebanon — Thousands of sick and dying Syrians had flooded the hospitals in the Damascus suburbs before dawn, hours after the first rockets landed, their bodies convulsing and mouths foaming. Their vision was blurry and many could not breathe.
Overwhelmed doctors worked frantically, jabbing their patients with injections of their only antidote, atropine, hoping to beat back the assault on the nervous system waged by suspected chemical agents. In just a few hours, as the patients poured in, the atropine ran out.
To avoid contamination, medics stripped new arrivals down to their underwear and doused them with water before taking them inside.
New patients kept coming. One doctor from the town of Kafr Batna likened the scene to a horror movie, with cars bringing in entire families — fathers, mothers and children — all of them dead.
The doctors soon faced a new problem: where to put the dead. Some were covered with blocks of ice to fend off the summer heat, others were wrapped in white sheets and lined up in rows so family members could identify the victims.
It would be hours before officials in Washington woke up on Wednesday to learn the extent of the massacre. President Obama, who had recently returned from a weeklong vacation and planned a quiet day at the White House before departing for a two-day bus tour across New York and Pennsylvania, was told of the attack in the Oval Office that morning during his regular intelligence briefing.
The White House issued a cautious public statement about the attacks from a deputy spokesman shortly before noon, but behind the scenes the president and his national security team were grappling with the urgency and enormity of the event: the largest mass killing of the Syrian civil war, and most likely the deadliest chemical weapons attack since Saddam Hussein’s troops killed thousands of Kurds with sarin gas during the waning days of the Iran-Iraq war in 1988.
Interviews with more than two dozen activists, rebels and doctors in areas near the attack sites, as well as an examination of more than 100 videos and photos of the aftermath, back up this assertion.
Not only has the attack brought widespread condemnation on President Bashar al-Assad’s government in Syria, which the United States and its allies are convinced carried out the strike, it is also already shaping up as an inflection point for a war that has been grinding on for more than two years and has claimed more than 100,000 victims.
An American president who has tried desperately to keep the United States out of another war in the Middle East is now weighing a military attack on Syria — cornered by his own statement that a large-scale chemical weapons strike would be a “red line” forcing Washington to respond.
Mr. Assad’s government has repeatedly denied using chemical weapons, while blaming rebels for reported attacks. But Western nations say they have solid evidence that the Syrian government has used such weapons on at least two occasions before last Wednesday. And the supplies of atropine on hand in rebel-held areas just outside Syria’s capital testify to the repeated, if limited, use of chemical agents as a tactical weapon in what has become a street-by-street war of attrition, the rebels and doctors said.
If the United States does get involved, it will most likely be because of the scale of what took place in the dead of night last Wednesday, in towns just outside Damascus that the government was determined to retake. The attacks caused such chaos among residents that the death toll is still unknown, and many are still uncertain about the fate of their relatives.
“Those are my cousins,” said one person in a video shot in the city of Hamouriyeh, pointing to the ground where the bodies of a man and his two children lay.
“I’m still looking for the rest,” he said. “Five or six of them.”
By nightfall in Syria, the bodies that were unclaimed had been buried in an archipelago of new mass graves. Before laying them to rest, activists put numbers on their foreheads and snapped photos — in case their families came looking for them later.
Many Trapped at Home
It began just after 2 a.m.
Those who heard the explosions and lived to tell about them were surprised at the sound, saying it was “like a water tank bursting” or “like opening a Pepsi bottle.”
Then came the smell, which burned eyes and throats, like onions or chlorine.
The effects were immediate and devastating.
At the time of the strikes, a few hours before morning prayers, most people were still asleep in their homes. The substance released by the barrage of rockets, which crashed into suburbs on two sides of Damascus, killed many people before they were even able to get out of their beds.
The deadliest of the attacks struck at the heart of a region known as Eastern Ghouta, an area northeast of Damascus whose towns have swelled into cities in recent decades with an influx of mostly poor Sunni Muslims from the countryside, the key constituency of the anti-Assad uprising.
Towns in the area have been held for more than a year by various factions of the rebellion. Unlike in northern and eastern Syria, extremist groups like the Nusra Front are not dominant. The area’s economic isolation made it fertile ground for the rebellion, and it has proved to be a perpetual threat to Mr. Assad’s control over the capital region.
The neighborhoods are dotted with homes that have been damaged — or have collapsed outright — from the persistent government shelling over the past year.
In the months before Wednesday’s attack, according to interviews with rebels, the battle around Eastern Ghouta had reached a stalemate. While both sides frequently carried out guerrilla raids and sniper attacks, the front lines had moved little.
In the meantime, the government had sought to break the stalemate by severing the region’s links to the capital and starving rebel troops in Eastern Ghouta. Shipments of flour, fuel and electricity to the area were stopped, and government troops on the few remaining byways confiscated bread and siphoned fuel from gas tanks to ensure it did not reach the rebels.
Shortly after Wednesday’s rocket barrage began, rebel fighters spread the news of the assault by shouting, “Chemical attack!” into their walkie-talkies while loudspeakers affixed to minarets on the top of mosques blared warnings to residents to flee or to seek fresh air on their rooftops.
As in many rebel areas, residents had grown used to dealing with government attacks, instincts that this time only increased the death toll.
According to local doctors, some people took cover in basements, where the gas settled and suffocated them. Medics and photographers who had become accustomed to rushing to the site of attacks arrived too quickly, succumbing to the gases themselves.
The attacks appeared to fit into a pattern of continued escalation by government forces throughout the war, with large strikes on residential areas that appear to serve no immediate tactical purpose.
Such attacks seem to be aimed not at killing rebel fighters, but at terrifying the rebels’ civilian backers in strategic areas that Mr. Assad’s forces have been unable to subdue.
“They knew that people’s sons were on the front lines, so if you hit their families, they would go back and check on them and it would be easier to invade,” said an activist from Zamalka who gave only his first name, Firas. But he said that the tactic had not worked and had instead rallied rebel fighters to defend their positions.
Some military analysts said that the apparent chemical attack appeared to be part of a broader operation by Mr. Assad’s forces, which have also used tanks, conventionally armed rockets and air power to wrest control of rebel areas around the Syrian capital.
“It appears that they were trying to break resistance in the Damascus area, which they have been trying to do unsuccessfully for some time,” said Jeffrey White, a former Middle East analyst with the Defense Intelligence Agency who is now a fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
Firas, the activist, said he was driving home with some friends when he heard about the attack over his walkie-talkie. He said he was terrified, since no one knew where the attacks had occurred and how far the suspected gas had spread. They used wet pieces of cloth to cover their noses and mouths and sped out of town to a field hospital farther east.
Hospitals Overwhelmed
Whatever the chemicals used, the carnage caused by Wednesday’s attack overwhelmed field hospitals on the outskirts of Damascus. Bodies covered tile floors, stretched down hallways and were laid out on sidewalks and streets.
A doctor from the town of Kafr Batna said he rushed to his clinic soon after the attack and found 100 patients.
“We had men, women and children, all of them choking and having trouble breathing,” said the doctor, Sakhr. “Some of them had foam coming out of their mouths and nostrils and many had lost consciousness.”
The medical charity Doctors Without Borders said Saturday that three clinics it supports in the area recorded 355 deaths.
The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, which tracks the conflict from Britain through a network of contacts inside Syria, said it had confirmed the deaths of 322 people, including 54 children and 82 women.
Some activists have compiled lists of names and say that more than 1,000 people were killed in Wednesday’s predawn attack.
By the end of that day, Dr. Sakhr of Kafr Batna said, 16 of the 160 bodies collected at his clinic had not been claimed. Volunteers took the bodies to a nearby graveyard, photographed their faces one by one, and buried them in a mass grave.
For those who survived, there was a different kind of grim reckoning.
Nearly a week after the attack, Dr. Sakhr said local residents who had not fled the area were flooding him with questions about where to sleep to protect themselves from future attacks.
Others were still searching for lost relatives, including children who had been taken in by strangers after their parents disappeared.
“Some found their relatives, said ‘praise God’ and sat down next to them,” said Dr. Sakhr.
“Others didn’t find them, and had to look elsewhere.”
A Careful Response
As video images and eyewitness accounts of the assault began to spread through social media, President Obama was easing back into his routine after a week away on Martha’s Vineyard. His only public event last Tuesday, hours before the attack began, was welcoming players from the undefeated 1972 Miami Dolphins to the White House for a much-belated ceremony.
The president had planned no public events for Wednesday. When he learned of the attack during his intelligence briefing that morning, many hours after it had occurred, American intelligence about the attack was still sketchy. But officials said that if the reports of chemical weapons use proved to be true, the attack was on a far greater scale than chemical attacks earlier this year.
Still, the White House moved carefully, driven in part by its experience with smaller-scale chemical weapons attacks in Aleppo and on the outskirts of Damascus. In those cases, a senior official said, there was conflicting evidence long afterward.
“In the past, it took weeks to match eyewitness accounts with intelligence,” said a senior official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss the internal deliberations. “This time, there was a consistency in all the information that was coming in for the first 24 to 48 hours.”
In the subsequent statement, which was only two paragraphs, the White House urged the Assad government to allow United Nations investigators to visit the site and put the emphasis on gathering more information. The statement was issued by the White House’s deputy spokesman, Josh Earnest, who declined to speculate about who was culpable for the attack.
Mr. Obama kept his travel plans to upstate New York on Thursday, although as his armored bus rolled from Buffalo to Rochester to Seneca Falls, he was on the phone several times with his national security adviser, Susan E. Rice.
At the White House that morning, Ms. Rice had convened a three-hour meeting of cabinet officials, including Secretary of State John Kerry, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel and John O. Brennan, the director of the C.I.A. Military officials from United States Central Command joined the meeting by video.
The debate was robust, officials said. Some officials argued forcefully for military action, while others raised potential dangers about American missile strikes, including fears that they would destabilize the region and set off a vast new refugee flow into Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon.
One question that puzzled intelligence officials was exactly what kind of chemicals were used in the attack. American spy agencies conferred with allied intelligence services in Europe, Israel and Arab countries to get a clearer picture of what happened. In Israel, three Israeli officials briefed on the attack said they believed the rockets carried a “cocktail” of sarin gas mixed with several other components. Syria’s government is believed to have large quantities of sarin, mustard gas and VX.
One Israeli official even suggested that whoever planned the rocket barrage might have miscalculated.
“It’s quite likely that there was kind of an operational mistake here,” one senior Israeli suggested. “I don’t think they wanted to kill so many people, especially so many children. Maybe they were trying to hit one place or to get one effect and they got a much greater effect than they thought.”
Meanwhile, Mr. Kerry made phone calls to foreign ministers from Europe and the Arab world, hoping to build international support for a potential military strike against Mr. Assad.
On the day of the White House meeting, he called Syria’s foreign minister, Walid al-Moallem, to complain that the Assad government had not allowed United Nations inspectors to quickly visit the sites of the suspected attack.
It was a rare high-level contact between American and Syrian officials in the time since the United States closed its embassy in Damascus last year.
As Thursday wore into Friday, American officials said, it became clear that the Assad government was still thwarting the members of the United Nations team — who had arrived in Damascus days earlier to inspect other possible chemical weapons sites — from visiting the scenes of Wednesday’s attack. Russia, long a supporter of President Assad, was blaming rebel forces.
Russia’s public statements blaming the rebels hardened the views of White House officials. By the time the full National Security Council assembled, with Mr. Obama presiding, on Saturday morning, “the focus had really shifted to how we respond to this event, not whether we respond,” a senior official said.


source: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/27/world/middleeast/blasts-in-the-night-a-smell-and-a-flood-of-syrian-victims.html?_r=0

[piet11111]

http://www.fas.org/programs/bio/factsheets/sarin.html


Sarin is a colorless, odorless, tasteless, human-made chemical warfare agent. It was originally developed in Germany in the 1930's as a pesticide. Sarin is a nerve agent-it disrupts the functioning of the nervous system. Nerve agents are the most toxic and rapidly acting of all known chemical warfare agents. Sarin is highly toxic in both its liquid and vapor states.
Delivery
Following the release of sarin into the air, people can be exposed to it through contact with skin or eyes. Sarin can also be inhaled as a gas. Sarin mixes easily with water, and since it is odorless, people would not be aware of sarin in drinking water. Furthermore, sarin in water can be absorbed through the skin.
Production
Sarin is made by mixing several commercially available chemicals in the right amounts and in the right sequence. It is debatable how easy it is for the layperson to synthesize sarin. It is somewhat complicated and dangerous to produce.
Mechanism
Sarin disrupts the ability of the body to regulate nerve impulses. When this happens, the glands and muscles of the body are continually stimulated, leading to system fatigue. The victim will lose control over his bodily functions. Ultimately, the victim will fall into a coma and suffocate.
Treatment
There are antidotes to sarin, but they must be provided very soon after exposure to be effective. Clothing can retain sarin, so it must be removed. The victim should move quickly to fresh air. As quickly as possible after exposure, the victim should wash thoroughly with soap and water.
Effects
The first signs of sarin exposure are a runny nose, tightness in the chest, pinpoint pupils, eye pain, and blurred vision. The victim will then experience drooling, excessive, sweating, coughing, chest pain, diarrhea, increased urination, confusion, drowsiness, weakness, headache, nausea, and vomiting. Exposure to large doses of sarin will result in loss of consciousness, involuntary twitching and jerking, paralysis, coma, and eventually, death.


Well the account says they smelled something so that rules out Sarin.
I wonder what the UN weapons team will come up with.

[Slavic]

Well the account says they smelled something so that rules out Sarin.
I wonder what the UN weapons team will come up with.

Sarin is produced by mixing methylphosphonyl difluride and isopropyl alcohol. Isopropyl alcohol produces a strong and noticeable odor.

The production of Sarin also results in an excess of hydrofluoric acid which besides being deadly also produces a strong pungent odor. The Sarin molecule and hydrofluric acid are produces in 1:1 ratios. Unless the methods and standards of production is perfect, which they hardly ever are, any Sarin produced is going to be contaminated with odor producing isopropl alcohol during the production phase, or odor producing hydrofluoric acid during the purification stage.

Honestly, I do not know why any military would want to go through the effort of removing the hydrofluoric acid since H+F- can be fatal if inhaled or swallowed. Seem like your just getting more bang for your buck.

[blake 3:17]

On another note, remember when Kerry was the 'anti-war' candidate? Haha


In the 2004 elections Kerry outhawked Bush by a mile.

At the convention that acclaimed him, ANYONE wearing a peace or anti-war button or Tshirt was excluded.

I believe they had Medea Benjamin arrested at that one for dropping an anti-war banner.

Meanwhile something like 80% of Democrats were firmly against the war...

[blake 3:17]

I'm very skeptical of the reports on the gas attack largely because I don't think Assad's that stupid.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

In the 2004 elections Kerry outhawked Bush by a mile.

At the convention that acclaimed him, ANYONE wearing a peace or anti-war button or Tshirt was excluded.

I believe they had Medea Benjamin arrested at that one for dropping an anti-war banner.

Meanwhile something like 80% of Democrats were firmly against the war...

It was during the activist stage of my life and I remember my friends telling me that not going out to vote for him was the same as voting for the war. Ahh youth.