Mystical Fascism

[Imperius]

There have been a few discussions of fascism here recently, but most are missing the most vital aspect of the ideology – not surprisingly, given the materialistic orientation of most people here. That aspect is mysticism.

At the heart of the most powerful fascist movements, from National Socialism, Imperial Japan, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah and the militant Zionists, and going all the back to ancient pagan empires, pre-Columbian god-kings, oriental emperors and early Muslims and Crusaders, is a mystical belief in some divine cause or holy struggle.

For the Germans it was the Aryan race and their prophet, Hitler. For the Imperial Japanese it was their God-Emperor and the Japanese chosen people. For Muslims it is Allah, Mohammed and Sharia. For Zionists it is allegiance to the Jewish people and their holy land.

Mystical fascism taps into something deep in the human psyche that makes men want to march to war for their god-emperor, prophet or chosen people. Mystical fascism can be extremely potent, as we see in the rapid conquests of the early Muslims and the Axis powers, but it tends to self-destruct in an orgy of violence. But if it succeeds, it can become the basis of a new empire which may last for centuries.

Some leftist movements have even incorporated elements of mystical fascism, when they become militant personality cults and quasi-religions out to create the “New Soviet Man” and the Worker's Paradise.

I would suggest that the reason secular leftist ideology tends to fail is strongly related to the fact that it starves this aspect of the human psyche. Human beings are not content with materialistic, rational, economic, secular, mundane, political ideologies. We crave myth, magic, gods and leaders who can connect us to something transcendent. I submit that unless and until revolutionary leftists recognize the power of the mystical fascist impulse and find a way to incorporate it into your ideology, you will continue to face strong resistance from people who might otherwise agree with your critique of capitalism and the current world order.

[Hivemind]

I submit that unless you stop using methamphetamine, these delusions of yours will not go away.

No seriously, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

[Imperius]

I'm giving you a serious viewpoint about an "opposing ideology". I do not use drugs of any kind. What specifically do you find delusional in my post?

[Decolonize The Left]

There have been a few discussions of fascism here recently, but most are missing the most vital aspect of the ideology – not surprisingly, given the materialistic orientation of most people here. That aspect is mysticism.

At the heart of the most powerful fascist movements, from National Socialism, Imperial Japan, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah and the militant Zionists, and going all the back to ancient pagan empires, pre-Columbian god-kings, oriental emperors and early Muslims and Crusaders, is a mystical belief in some divine cause or holy struggle.

For the Germans it was the Aryan race and their prophet, Hitler. For the Imperial Japanese it was their God-Emperor and the Japanese chosen people. For Muslims it is Allah, Mohammed and Sharia. For Zionists it is allegiance to the Jewish people and their holy land.

Mystical fascism unleashes something deep in the human psyche that makes men want to march to war for their god-emperor, prophet or chosen people. Mystical fascism can be extremely potent, as we see in the rapid conquests of the early Muslims and the Axis powers, but it tends to self-destruct in an orgy of violence. But if it succeeds, it can become the basis of a new empire which may last for centuries.

Some leftist movements have even incorporated elements of mystical fascism, when they become militant personality cults and quasi-religions out to create the “New Soviet Man” and the Worker's Paradise.

I would suggest that the reason secular leftist ideology tends to fail is strongly related to the fact that it starves this aspect of the human psyche. Human beings are not content with materialistic, rational, economic, secular, mundane, political ideologies. We crave myth, magic, gods and leaders who can connect us to something transcendent. I submit that unless and until revolutionary leftists recognize the power of the mystical fascist impulse and find a way to incorporate it into your ideology, you will continue to face strong resistance from people who might otherwise agree with your critique of capitalism and the current world order.

False.

"Mystical fascism" as you are describing it is a distortion of simple nationalism and cult of the personality. God(s) are not necessary to fascism but they help in solidifying a national base which revolves around common values.

We, as a species, do not "crave myth, magic, gods, and leaders who can connect us to something transcendent." We have been conditioned to believe as such and we have been conditioned to do so because it was in the interest of those in power to have us that way.

The goal isn't to borrow from fascism in order to be more popular. The goal is to destroy fascism, destroy the gods, and destroy the capitalist system in order to liberate ourselves as a class.

[Imperius]

You honestly believe that the desire for myth, gods and the transcendent has been conditioned throughout history, and isn't something inherent in human beings? That's an amazing claim, which most of history refutes.

My point is that if you want to "destroy fascism" you need to understand why it has appeal in the first place, and that it goes deeper than love of capitalism and oppressive class relations.

[Decolonize The Left]

You honestly believe that the desire for myth, gods and the transcendent has been conditioned throughout history, and isn't something inherent in human beings? That's an amazing claim, which most of history refutes.

I'm not sure this is the argument you want to take here. Technically speaking, history refutes that claim that anything is inherent in human beings. Human nature is a historical illusion.


My point is that if you want to "destroy fascism" you need to understand why it has appeal in the first place, and that it goes deeper than love of capitalism and oppressive class relations.

I do understand why fascism has an appeal; this is my point. I do not think that you understand the appeal of fascism. Fascism isn't about "love of capitalism and oppressive class relations." That's absurd and almost as absurd as your claim about mysticism.

[Hivemind]

I'm giving you a serious viewpoint about an "opposing ideology". I do not use drugs of any kind. What specifically do you find delusional in my post?

Oh really? This is what constitutes a "serious" viewpoint? Cute. This is the same sort of delusional garbage that methheads and crackheads that I've met used to spew out. What do I find delusional in your post? Your post. All of it. There isn't even any point in breaking down each individual point for you, it's not like you'd understand, nor would it matter because it's not like you're going to be here for much longer, and thankfully this kind of arrogant bullshit is believed by a fractional minority of people. The only thing this "ideology" is opposed to is rationality.


You honestly believe that the desire for myth, gods and the transcendent has been conditioned throughout history, and isn't something inherent in human beings? That's an amazing claim, which most of history refutes.

Oh yeah, most of history refutes this? I'd like to see some proof. Oh yeah there isn't any. And there never will be because there can't be. First you make up magic, and then you believe in it, not the other way around. Magic doesn't come to us (because it doesn't exist), which then makes us crave it. What the fuck kind of fairytale bullshit are you into?


My point is that if you want to "destroy fascism" you need to understand why it has appeal in the first place, and that it goes deeper than love of capitalism and oppressive class relations.

It has appeal because it is a populist piece of shit that tries to appeal to the masses through lying to them and making them believe things that aren't real, and then it reinforces all of that through the might of its iron fist when it gains power, not because of some magical insight into...I don't even know what. Fascism is as shallow an ideology as all of the idiots that believe in it.

I'm truly sorry that you believe otherwise.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

False.

"Mystical fascism" as you are describing it is a distortion of simple nationalism and cult of the personality. God(s) are not necessary to fascism but they help in solidifying a national base which revolves around common values.

We, as a species, do not "crave myth, magic, gods, and leaders who can connect us to something transcendent." We have been conditioned to believe as such and we have been conditioned to do so because it was in the interest of those in power to have us that way.

The goal isn't to borrow from fascism in order to be more popular. The goal is to destroy fascism, destroy the gods, and destroy the capitalist system in order to liberate ourselves as a class.
On the other hand, there is a grain of truth in the OP's narrative. The German left failed to understand that some of the most effective aspects of fascist ideology lay in its use of mass psychology, and mysticism helped greatly in their propaganda techniques. As Hitler and Mussolini both remarked once, crowds are "feminine", i.e. incapable of making their own decisions, gullible, etc. This viewpoint, despite its crudity, allowed the fascist leaders to perform something that the Marxist left dismissed out of hand--the ability to "get inside" the heads of the very people they're appealing to. Instead, the German left leaders buried themselves in the legal fetishism surrounding bourgeois elections. Daniel Guerin, author of Fascism and Big Business, accurately described the objectivist method of these Marxists:

“The degenerated Marxists believe it is very ‘Marxist’ and ‘materialist’ to disdain the human factors. They accumulate figures, statistics and percentages; they study with great accuracy the profound causes of social phenomena. But by failing to study with the same care the way in which these causes are reflected in the consciousness of men, and failing to penetrate the soul of man, they miss the living reality of these phenomena.”
Guerin, in the same passage, later called for a Marxist alternative to fascist mysticism that would “[counterpose] a superior substitute to fascist mysticism: an ‘idealism’ which would not be fallacious, because it would be based on reality, with both feet on the ground, guided by a scientific concept of history and by its highly ‘spiritual’ purpose of ending man’s alienation.”

This was entirely in accord with the concerns of the Freudo-Marxist movement at the time. In other words, the revolutionary task was to push a renewed socialist idealism that would enlighten the masses, rather than befuddle and mystify them, as the Nazis did. This is one of the principal lessons we Marxists should draw from the failure of the working-class movement to eliminate fascism in the early twentieth century.

[Imperius]

What do you find absurd about my claim? I listed several examples of fascist movements past and present that clearly had a strong mystical aspects. Do you deny that this was an important part of their appeal? What is motivating the Muslim Brotherhood to die in the streets if not religious belief? Is this all the result of conditioning by capitalists?

There are many fascistically-inclined people who are anything but shallow idiots, but to know this you would have to read them with an open mind rather than dismissing them with labels and ad hominems. At the very least, you should try to know your enemy.

[Comrade Samuel]

Oh really? This is what constitutes a "serious" viewpoint? Cute. This is the same sort of delusional garbage that methheads and crackheads that I've met used to spew out. What do I find delusional in your post? Your post. All of it. There isn't even any point in breaking down each individual point for you, it's not like you'd understand, nor would it matter because it's not like you're going to be here for much longer, and thankfully this kind of arrogant bullshit is believed by a fractional minority of people. The only thing this "ideology" is opposed to is rationality.



Oh yeah, most of history refutes this? I'd like to see some proof. Oh yeah there isn't any. And there never will be because there can't be. First you make up magic, and then you believe in it, not the other way around. Magic doesn't come to us (because it doesn't exist), which then makes us crave it. What the fuck kind of fairytale bullshit are you into?



It has appeal because it is a populist piece of shit that tries to appeal to the masses through lying to them and making them believe things that aren't real, and then it reinforces all of that through the might of its iron fist when it gains power, not because of some magical insight into...I don't even know what. Fascism is as shallow an ideology as all of the idiots that believe in it.

I'm truly sorry that you believe otherwise.

Y'know a hell of a lot of workers were duped into believing in fascism, I guess everybody who isn't a snarky, condescending pseudo-intellectual internet leftist is an idiot to you.

To be honest I didn't find a whole lot wrong with his post up until he implied that we should adopt such tactics. I do not think you can justify that.

Now OP I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here but you did make a claim without backing it up; What proof is there that humans have a psychological need to die for a higher power? Know, you can't just say 'history' and be done with the question because that does not disprove the notion that we've been conditioned to want it (subconsciously or otherwise), as Manoir de mes reves mentioned.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

I would suggest that the reason secular leftist ideology tends to fail is strongly related to the fact that it starves this aspect of the human psyche. Human beings are not content with materialistic, rational, economic, secular, mundane, political ideologies. We crave myth, magic, gods and leaders who can connect us to something transcendent. I submit that unless and until revolutionary leftists recognize the power of the mystical fascist impulse and find a way to incorporate it into your ideology, you will continue to face strong resistance from people who might otherwise agree with your critique of capitalism and the current world order.
That people are prone to idolatry does not mean that it is a bedrock psychological instinct. You seem to be implying that mysticism and religion is an eternal human need that is inseparable from our nature. Is this your claim?

[Decolonize The Left]

On the other hand, there is a grain of truth in the OP's narrative. The German left failed to understand that some of the most effective aspects of fascist ideology lay in its use of mass psychology, and mysticism helped greatly in their propaganda techniques. As Hitler and Mussolini both remarked once, crowds are "feminine", i.e. incapable of making their own decisions, gullible, etc. This viewpoint, despite its crudity, allowed the fascist leaders to perform something that the Marxist left dismissed out of hand--the ability to "get inside" the heads of the very people they're appealing to. Instead, the German left leaders buried themselves in the legal fetishism surrounding bourgeois elections. Daniel Guerin, author of Fascism and Big Business, accurately described the objectivist method of these Marxists:

Guerin, in the same passage, later called for a Marxist alternative to fascist mysticism that would “[counterpose] a superior substitute to fascist mysticism: an ‘idealism’ which would not be fallacious, because it would be based on reality, with both feet on the ground, guided by a scientific concept of history and by its highly ‘spiritual’ purpose of ending man’s alienation.”

This was entirely in accord with the concerns of the Freudo-Marxist movement at the time. In other words, the revolutionary task was to push a renewed socialist idealism that would enlighten the masses, rather than befuddle and mystify them, as the Nazis did. This is one of the principal lessons we Marxists should draw from the failure of the working-class movement to eliminate fascism in the early twentieth century.

Your point is well-noted but does not support the OP as I believe you may have intended. The OP's point isn't simply that mysticism was a component of fascism, it is that it ought to be incorporated into leftism in order to achieve a similar appeal. The OP's point is a functional one, not a descriptive one (although s/he is now backpeddling and claiming otherwise).

And it is to this point that I was addressing my comments. Not only do I find it absurd to claim that mysticism was essential to fascism (it isn't), but it's doubly absurd to then claim that just because it worked for them that we should use it.

I would also like to note that I accept your argument re: Guerin and Marxism; I am not claiming that there should be no positive ideology in Marxism. I am claiming that there should be no mysticism and that most certainly the logic for arguing that there ought to be should not be derived from people like fascists.

[Vireya]

Yeah OP, Imperialist Japan wasn't fascist proper, more para-fascist. Japanese nationalism was mostly tied the early 20th century idea of "State Shinto". Even though based in Japanese tradition and nationalist, it had a different genesis than Italian Fascism and Nazism.

The Muslim Brotherhood isn't fascist either, simply theocratic.

Not to say I don't agree with you, that Fascism is more attractive to the average person by appealing to emotion. I view it this way, Fascism views things from a "spritual" or social perspective and ignores economic issues, Marxism views things from an economic and materialist perspective and ignores the spiritual/cultural aspect. Both ideologies fail to acknowledge the importance of and need for whole fields of reality, and though their analysis of societies problem on the respective fields they do pay attention to are sound, their answers to the issues are incorrect.

I find both to be flawed.

[Decolonize The Left]

What do you find absurd about my claim? I listed several examples of fascist movements past and present that clearly had a strong mystical aspects. Do you deny that this was an important part of their appeal? What is motivating the Muslim Brotherhood to die in the streets if not religious belief? Is this all the result of conditioning by capitalists?

There are many fascistically-inclined people who are anything but shallow idiots, but to know this you would have to read them with an open mind rather than dismissing them with labels and ad hominems. At the very least, you should try to know your enemy.

No no, my friend. This is not what you claimed. Allow me to copy and paste your claim for you:

I would suggest that the reason secular leftist ideology tends to fail is strongly related to the fact that it starves this aspect of the human psyche. Human beings are not content with materialistic, rational, economic, secular, mundane, political ideologies. We crave myth, magic, gods and leaders who can connect us to something transcendent. I submit that unless and until revolutionary leftists recognize the power of the mystical fascist impulse and find a way to incorporate it into your ideology, you will continue to face strong resistance from people who might otherwise agree with your critique of capitalism and the current world order.

You are telling us to incorporate aspects of historical fascism as a tool to appeal to the working class. This is, for lack of a better term, a load of bullshit (this is what I called absurd earlier).

And once again, I do know my enemy. I have studied fascism and understand it quite well. But fascism isn't my enemy; capitalism is. Fascism is merely one, quite horrible, form of capitalism.

[TheIrrationalist]

What about Georges Sorel? He basically is one of the main ideologues of Fascism, even though he was a Marxist of some sort. He basically invented the use of social myths, which Fascists later embraced into their ideology. Though the Fascist myth is the nation, race etc. rather than Sorel's revolution or general strike.

And, as reference to your earlier thread, he saw Marxism being closer in spirit to Christianity rather than to the French Revolution.

[Astarte]

Original Poster: Your understanding of fascism is completely lacking, and you ascribe one variable aspect of the superstructure of the social form of fascism to be its most discerning feature.

The most discerning feature of fascism is that it is a quasi-"revolutionary" movement of the petty bourgeoisie backed by huge tracts of capital. The fascist movement arrives on the heels of a crushed proletarian movement or with the express purpose of crushing the social revolution. Mysticism is an attribute that may or may not be present in fascism. For example, the Italian fascism movement was mainly geared towards a glorification of a technologically advanced future and did not rely much, if at all on anything esoteric.

Conversely, the early Soviet ideal of "God-building" was a type of atheistic mysticism and had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with fascism as it never once questioned the need for a socialized means of production with the proletarian class at the guiding helm of society.

[Dagoth Ur]

Yeah the New Soviet Man referred to post-nationalist Soviets (as opposed to Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians, etc) as a new type of man. That's like the opposite of fascism.

[Imperius]

You seem to be implying that mysticism and religion is an eternal human need that is inseparable from our nature. Is this your claim?

Absolutely. And since politics is the collective expression of human nature, any political movement which ignores such a powerful aspect of our nature will have problems. It's not enough for leftists to speak of "workers" as if they are robots without spiritual lives. The lack of spiritual power and psychological depth is why I'm not a leftist anymore myself. Nevertheless, I do enjoy these discussions.

[Dagoth Ur]

There is no human nature. Otherwise we'd still be hunting and gathering.

[Imperius]

But fascism isn't my enemy; capitalism is. Fascism is merely one, quite horrible, form of capitalism.

This is where we disagree. Fascism is distinct from capitalism. What I'm talking about is theocratic or mystical fascism, whereas most people here seem to be talking exclusively about corporate fascism. Probably the word fascism has been overused by now, and we need new terms to avoid confusion.

[Vireya]

Yeah the New Soviet Man referred to post-nationalist Soviets (as opposed to Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians, etc) as a new type of man. That's like the opposite of fascism.

Not really, all it was was Russification of the other Soviet nationalities. It was similar to the Nazi plans to "Aryanize" Europe.

[Astarte]

This is where we disagree. Fascism is distinct from capitalism. What I'm talking about is theocratic or mystical fascism, whereas most people here seem to be talking exclusively about corporate fascism. Probably the word fascism has been overused by now, and we need new terms to avoid confusion.

Your problem is you do not understand fascism in a Marxian sense. The economic base of fascism remains to be driven by private property, the accumulation of capital and the exploitation of wage labor; it hence remains a form of capitalism whether its elite layers dabble in the occult or not, the economic base mode remains capitalistic.

[Imperius]

There is no human nature. Otherwise we'd still be hunting and gathering.

No human nature at all? So every human is a totally blank slate with no innate neurological tendencies? Is that a religious belief, because science certainly doesn't support it. Remember, even hunter-gatherers had shamans advising their tribes on mystical matters and sorcerers assisting them in warfare.

[Hivemind]

Y'know a hell of a lot of workers were duped into believing in fascism, I guess everybody who isn't a snarky, condescending pseudo-intellectual internet leftist is an idiot to you.

Yeah, you know why they were duped into believing in fascism? Precisely because of its shallowness and its populism. It is the same with populism today, it riles people up against a scapegoat and towards a single goal, with very little substance except empty rhetoric. Why do people buy into that? Maybe because of how they've been born and raised in a certain type of environment, which hasn't allowed the methods of critical thinking and logic to develop to the point where they would be able to see through the bullshit. Maybe that plus a million other little factors that build up and allow people to be duped into believing in something as empty as fascism.

If you read the "major" works by fascistic writers, you'll see exactly that. You'll a lot of playing on emotions and scapegoating and very little analysis that is strong enough to be considered a strong argument, let alone be considered an argument at all!

I like your little quip by the way. Keep it up. You probably don't even know what an intellectual is if you consider me to be even trying to be one. And sometimes I'm condescending because I've had enough of all the bullshit that people say. I'm more concerned with raising class awareness and consciousness in a large amount of people than to disprove pathetic beliefs in a minority of people. You can concern yourself with that if you want, but more often than not it will lead to the failure of those people to abandon their petty and incorrect beliefs and to a giant headache to you for even trying.

Pseudo-intellectual internet leftist, hilarious :laugh:

[Decolonize The Left]

No human nature at all? So every human is a totally blank slate with no innate neurological tendencies? Is that a religious belief, because science certainly doesn't support it. Remember, even hunter-gatherers had shamans advising their tribes on mystical matters and sorcerers assisting them in warfare.

Human nature isn't scientific at all, it's a metanarrative. Science indicates only that humans are governed by evolution by natural selection, nothing more.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

Absolutely. And since politics is the collective expression of human nature, any political movement which ignores such a powerful aspect of our nature will have problems. It's not enough for leftists to speak of "workers" as if they are robots without spiritual lives. The lack of spiritual power and psychological depth is why I'm not a leftist anymore myself. Nevertheless, I do enjoy these discussions.
Let me start out by saying that unlike many posters here, I do tend to lean towards the notion that humans do have an essential nature, from an anthropological perspective, in any case. Marx himself wrote philosophical treatises on the subject (though they were never published), and there is considerable textual evidence that he attempted to develop these ideas over the course of his career. And I agree that any leftist movement which ignores this is already at a disadvantage for winning the workers.

However, we need to be very specific as to how aspects of this human nature have grown and changed throughout the course of history. This holds even more true for fascist mysticism. Your assertion proves that humans are prone to idolatry, but it fails to consider how this idolatry might have developed. In fact, why do you pose that religiosity is the only answer to fulfill this spiritual need? Just because mysticism crops up throughout history does not mean it actually fulfilled human needs. If that was so, then human suffering, spiritual or otherwise, is supposed to be the permanent state of affairs for our species. This is a perspective which would be at pains to explain why these people struck back at their oppressors in order to end their suffering. It takes no account of man's alienation from his own nature under class society, and is far too pessimistic to take seriously.

Human nature isn't scientific at all, it's a metanarrative. Science indicates only that humans are governed by evolution by natural selection, nothing more.
You're very close to claiming that we humans are little more than dust governed by some iron-clad, yet abstract, historical law such as natural selection.

[Imperius]

Hivemind, I think your knowledge of fascism is somewhat superficial. Try reading mystical fascist intellectuals like Julius Evola or Hassan al-Banna -- it may be strange stuff, but I wouldn't call it shallow or populist. There is great depth and power in mystical fascist thinking, compared to which I find most talk of workers and class awareness to be shallow and populist. Mystical fascism is what you get when the poets, priests and warriors take power -- passion, vitality, conflict, mythological narratives, tradition and irrationality. And that's why it continues to have great appeal in our increasingly sterile, nihilistic, technocratic age.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Swear this forum says 'no fascists'?? :rolleyes:

Fuckin' trolls. Fuck off.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

Swear this forum says 'no fascists'?? :rolleyes:

Fuckin' trolls. Fuck off.
Cool story. Who here is a troll, and why?

[Decolonize The Left]

You're very close to claiming that we humans are little more than dust governed by some iron-clad, yet abstract, historical law such as natural selection.

Evolution by natural selection is a historical and biological law...

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

Evolution by natural selection is a historical and biological law...
And human agency factors nothing into how these laws were even identified? You're putting the cart before the horse.

[Decolonize The Left]

And human agency factors nothing into how these laws were even identified? You're putting the cart before the horse.

What is human agency? If there ever was a cart to put ahead of a horse that would be it...

EDIT: Also, you apparently don't understand how evolution by natural selection works. A simple wikipedia page will explain it well enough. It has nothing to do with human agency, nor does it negate/support it in any fashion.

[Comrade Samuel]

...because of how they've been born and raised in a certain type of environment, which hasn't allowed the methods of critical thinking and logic to develop to the point where they would be able to see through the bullshit.

I'd say that makes them the result of their material conditions just as you and I are, not 'idiots'.


If you read the "major" works by fascistic writers, you'll see exactly that. You'll a lot of playing on emotions and scapegoating and very little analysis that is strong enough to be considered a strong argument, let alone be considered an argument at all!

You're damn right, did I somehow imply that this is not what I believe?


I like your little quip by the way. Keep it up. You probably don't even know what an intellectual is if you consider me to be even trying to be one. And sometimes I'm condescending because I've had enough of all the bullshit that people say. I'm more concerned with raising class awareness and consciousness in a large amount of people than to disprove pathetic beliefs in a minority of people. You can concern yourself with that if you want, but more often than not it will lead to the failure of those people to abandon their petty and incorrect beliefs and to a giant headache to you for even trying.

Pseudo-intellectual internet leftist, hilarious :laugh:


The worst part though is that you claim to be 'more concerned with raising class awareness and consciousness in a large amount of people than to disprove pathetic beliefs in a minority of people.' when this small minority of people is mostly comprised of workers! (both historically and right now) What exactly is your master plan o' glorious beacon of prole-ness? I'm sure by ignoring/insulting most if not all of the people you claim to stand for you will disprove all of the horrible misconceptions about the left. We certainly do not look like a bunch of out of touch elitists when we constantly try to make ourselves appear more clever than one another on internet forums as opposed to taking the 'real action' that we always aspire to.

[Dagoth Ur]

No fascism is a unique reaction of bourgeoisie against the rise of proletarian power. There is no other fascism. Just because nations resemble the illiberal nature of Nazi Germany doesn't make them fascists.

[Dagoth Ur]

Not really, all it was was Russification of the other Soviet nationalities. It was similar to the Nazi plans to "Aryanize" Europe.
That's the biggest load of shit ever. The USSR enforced the teaching of local cultures and languages throughout its life. How this counts as Russification I dunno.


No human nature at all? So every human is a totally blank slate with no innate neurological tendencies? Is that a religious belief, because science certainly doesn't support it. Remember, even hunter-gatherers had shamans advising their tribes on mystical matters and sorcerers assisting them in warfare.
Except that has nothing to do with some notion of a human nature. Even if there were it would be so throughly conditioned by human society that you couldn't distinguish between this nature and what society had done.

[Imperius]

Oh, I think I'm starting to get the picture now. Most of you aren't actually members of the proletariat or any other oppressed group. Like Marx and Lenin, you're bourgeois intellectuals with grandiose theories and a messianic sense of what's best for the poor, unfortunate workers. You're trying to compensate for you own spiritual shortcomings by adopting a moralistic pose and attempting to appropriate other people's real or imaginary moral capital. Am I close?

[Decolonize The Left]

Oh, I think I'm starting to get the picture now. Most of you aren't actually members of the proletariat or any other oppressed group. Like Marx and Lenin, you're bourgeois intellectuals with grandiose theories and a messianic sense of what's best for the poor, oppressed workers. You're trying to compensate for you own spiritual shortcomings by adopting a moralistic pose and attempting to appropriate other people's real or imaginary moral capital. Am I close?

Oh this is going to be good. Hopefully I get in before your ban.

Yes. Most of us are not working class people at all. You can tell this because we post on an internet forum about things like politics and theory. This makes us non-workers by default. We are also all highly un-oppressed people. Absolutely all of us are not oppressed in any form: i.e. we are all the rich elite. This explains why we are opposed to capitalism and post on internet forums. We just have all this extra time lying around because we're so rich.

And yes, we all have horrible spiritual shortcomings. Just today I prayed for like six hours but I didn't get anything. My shortcomings are very obvious. I will pray more immediately after posting this because it will improve my already super rich and luxurious life. By the way, I pray on a carpet made entirely out of hundred dollar bills.

I'm sorry your "moral capital" (ha) was so easily appropriated. Perhaps you should get some stronger moral capital instead of putting forth your worthless trash of a theory about fascism and morality. Enjoy not being here. I know I'll enjoy it.

[Paul Pott]

If the basis of fascism is mysticism, then why didn't they let Evola in the treehouse?

[Dagoth Ur]

Been a prole my whole life and I'm trans. Naw dude I got it made in the shade!

[bcbm]

Oh, I think I'm starting to get the picture now. Most of you aren't actually members of the proletariat or any other oppressed group. Like Marx and Lenin, you're bourgeois intellectuals with grandiose theories and a messianic sense of what's best for the poor, unfortunate workers. You're trying to compensate for you own spiritual shortcomings by adopting a moralistic pose and attempting to appropriate other people's real or imaginary moral capital. Am I close?

nope

[Conscript]

There have been a few discussions of fascism here recently, but most are missing the most vital aspect of the ideology – not surprisingly, given the materialistic orientation of most people here. That aspect is mysticism.

At the heart of the most powerful fascist movements, from National Socialism, Imperial Japan, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah and the militant Zionists, and going all the back to ancient pagan empires, pre-Columbian god-kings, oriental emperors and early Muslims and Crusaders, is a mystical belief in some divine cause or holy struggle.

For the Germans it was the Aryan race and their prophet, Hitler. For the Imperial Japanese it was their God-Emperor and the Japanese chosen people. For Muslims it is Allah, Mohammed and Sharia. For Zionists it is allegiance to the Jewish people and their holy land.

Mystical fascism taps into something deep in the human psyche that makes men want to march to war for their god-emperor, prophet or chosen people. Mystical fascism can be extremely potent, as we see in the rapid conquests of the early Muslims and the Axis powers, but it tends to self-destruct in an orgy of violence. But if it succeeds, it can become the basis of a new empire which may last for centuries.

Some leftist movements have even incorporated elements of mystical fascism, when they become militant personality cults and quasi-religions out to create the “New Soviet Man” and the Worker's Paradise.

I would suggest that the reason secular leftist ideology tends to fail is strongly related to the fact that it starves this aspect of the human psyche. Human beings are not content with materialistic, rational, economic, secular, mundane, political ideologies. We crave myth, magic, gods and leaders who can connect us to something transcendent. I submit that unless and until revolutionary leftists recognize the power of the mystical fascist impulse and find a way to incorporate it into your ideology, you will continue to face strong resistance from people who might otherwise agree with your critique of capitalism and the current world order.

Meta is one thing, these pointless mythical delusions are another, inherently lesser version of it. A commonly held earth and united humanity is good enough, and unlocks potentials these pathetic excuses to send people into war never could.

And marxists are not moralists.

[Vireya]

That's the biggest load of shit ever. The USSR enforced the teaching of local cultures and languages throughout its life. How this counts as Russification I dunno.


Except that has nothing to do with some notion of a human nature. Even if there were it would be so throughly conditioned by human society that you couldn't distinguish between this nature and what society had done.

Well, I suppose we're both right to an extent. My point on Soviet Russification mostly happened during Stalin's regime. After, they did have the programs you speak of. Not sure about before Stalin though.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Oh this is going to be good. Hopefully I get in before your ban.

Yes. Most of us are not working class people at all. You can tell this because we post on an internet forum about things like politics and theory. This makes us non-workers by default. We are also all highly un-oppressed people. Absolutely all of us are not oppressed in any form: i.e. we are all the rich elite. This explains why we are opposed to capitalism and post on internet forums. We just have all this extra time lying around because we're so rich.

And yes, we all have horrible spiritual shortcomings. Just today I prayed for like six hours but I didn't get anything. My shortcomings are very obvious. I will pray more immediately after posting this because it will improve my already super rich and luxurious life. By the way, I pray on a carpet made entirely out of hundred dollar bills.

I'm sorry your "moral capital" (ha) was so easily appropriated. Perhaps you should get some stronger moral capital instead of putting forth your worthless trash of a theory about fascism and morality. Enjoy not being here. I know I'll enjoy it.

Hey man, if you've got a computer YOU'RE NOT WORKING HARD ENOUGH DAMMIT! GET BACK TO WORK YOU LAZY FIRST-WORLD UN-SPIRITUAL GOD-HATING INTELLECTUAL KNOW-IT-ALL!

:D

[Flying Purple People Eater]

This is where we disagree. Fascism is distinct from capitalism.

No it isn't. Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Italy retained private ownership over production and actively defended it against the scraps of the left still existing in Europe. E.g. There were coca-cola advertisements in Hitler Youth,large companies (including arms companies) situated themselves in 'neutral' Switzerland and sold commodities to both the Allies and Axis powers, and Adidas got big by selling their product to the Nazi military.

"Corporate fascism"? Come on now.

EDIT: Oops thought another user said this. I shouldn't have even written a response to this troll.


That's the biggest load of shit ever. The USSR enforced the teaching of local cultures and languages throughout its life. How this counts as Russification I dunno.


The USSR changed a lot in five decades, and russification was absolutely a thing. The Korenizatsiya policies of the early soviet state didn't make it past the 30s, especially when they challenged Stalin's great Russian chauvinism.

[Jimmie Higgins]

You honestly believe that the desire for myth, gods and the transcendent has been conditioned throughout history, and isn't something inherent in human beings? That's an amazing claim, which most of history refutes.

My point is that if you want to "destroy fascism" you need to understand why it has appeal in the first place, and that it goes deeper than love of capitalism and oppressive class relations.

Sure I love Comic Books and "Game of Thrones" and monster movies. They are entertaining. Is it something inhernet that all people need - no.

Myths when it comes to things that aren't entertainment and storytelling however - when applied to real life and society are not liberating. Our goal is the self-emancipation of the working class and people are not going to take destiny into their own hands by believing motivational stories and myths.

Apocalyptic or Messianic myths can motivate people, but they motivate followers, not people self-consiously creating their own leadership. Political demagauges of all political persuations use these kinds of things, consipracy theories glorious myths, to rally people to do what the demagague wants them to do. Marxism and Anarchism want to motivate people based on their own actual material interests.

The social base of fascism does not have the inherent econmic power or class unity of the capitalists or prolitariet. Because of this I think there is a tendency towards false myths of unity of some kind. But the myths adopted as rallying points for fascist movements are not the source of fascist movements - that source is capitalist crisis and the anexieties of the middle class as a group who can not control the conditions of capitalism to the extent that the bourgoise can nor do they have the social and economic weight of the working class. So they create their own unity through ideas about "the nation" or a uniform "people" and must try and exhert power over the social things they can't control (capitalism and the working class) through totalitarian policies and street-thuggery.

[ShortBDMTHRFCKR]

People really do love the grand narratives and people really do love the myths and gods and transcendence. Whether fallacious or not, we crave spirituality. As William James discusses in The Varieties of Religious Experience, it IS part of our nature. And its effective. I used to be a muslim and I know this first-hand- look at how radically Islam transformed Malcolm X. When we are intellectually fused to the revolution that's one thing. That connection starts to waver, starts to doubt. But when we are intellectually and spiritually connected to the cause, it is as though a new energy is flowing into our veins. We need to find a way to tap into that energy.

The materialist-atheistic view of the universe leaves us unguarded against despair and hopelessness and leaves us vulnerable. It's not suitable for inspiring people and that is honestly more important than whether it is true or not. As long as we can avoid a dogmatic spirituality, I think we can get the benefits without the drawbacks that we traditionally (in the West at least) associate with religion.

[Decolonize The Left]

People really do love the grand narratives and people really do love the myths and gods and transcendence. Whether fallacious or not, we crave spirituality. As William James discusses in The Varieties of Religious Experience, it IS part of our nature. And its effective. I used to be a muslim and I know this first-hand- look at how radically Islam transformed Malcolm X. When we are intellectually fused to the revolution that's one thing. That connection starts to waver, starts to doubt. But when we are intellectually and spiritually connected to the cause, it is as though a new energy is flowing into our veins. We need to find a way to tap into that energy.

The materialist-atheistic view of the universe leaves us unguarded against despair and hopelessness and leaves us vulnerable. It's not suitable for inspiring people and that is honestly more important than whether it is true or not. As long as we can avoid a dogmatic spirituality, I think we can get the benefits without the drawbacks that we traditionally (in the West at least) associate with religion.

Maybe the 'materialist-atheistic view of the universe' leaves you unguarded against despair and hopelessness and leaves you vulnerable. That's your weakness and your problem. I have no problem with despair and hopelessness, nor with vulnerability. In fact, the real problem is people who have a problem with these completely normal things.

The real problem is that spirituality and religion gives us false idols and ask us to be things we cannot be, thereby dooming us to fail. Hence why we need god or a narrative to explain away our failures in terms of a grand plan. This is the real weakness: fear of being human.

Atheism and materialism are incredibly strong because they accept human weakness for what it is and build beyond it, no matter how difficult. It is religion and spirituality which are weak and crippled, self-hating and self-deprecating; they are the lowest of human intellectual forms and deserve nothing better than to be left to wither with time.

[liberlict]

"Fascism" is just racism, which has blighted the human character for all recorded history, and I would suspect long before that. It's easily explained biologically---People who have similar gene frequencies (i.e., families, races) tend to favor their own more often than not. Communists don't like biological explanations for things, though. They'd rather view every flaw in the universe as a product of capitalism, because they believe economics determines reality. Capitalism is the current mode of production, so any problem you might have with reality is easily attributed to capitalism.

[Vireya]

"Fascism" is just racism, which has blighted the human character for all recorded history, and I would suspect long before that. It's easily explained biologically---People who have similar gene frequencies (i.e., families, races) tend to favor their own more often than not. Communists don't like biological explanations for things, though. They'd rather view every flaw in the universe as a product of capitalism, because they believe economics determines reality. Capitalism is the current mode of production, so any problem you might have with reality is easily attributed to capitalism.

That is a rather simplistic definition for Fascism, one can be racist and not be anywhere near fascist. If memory serves me correctly, Bakunin (a communist) was an anti-Semite.

I do agree with you though, communists have such a one dimensional view of history and world affairs. Economics is a big part of the human condition, but it isn't the entirety of it there are many other factors at play.

[liberlict]

That is a rather simplistic definition for Fascism, one can be racist and not be anywhere near fascist. If memory serves me correctly, Bakunin (a communist) was an anti-Semite.

I do agree with you though, communists have such a one dimensional view of history and world affairs. Economics is a big part of the human condition, but it isn't the entirety of it there are many other factors at play.

Marx himself was prone to the odd racist conniption. Edward Said complains about him vociferously in his book Orientalism. You should see the nasty stuff he says about 'backwards' Arabs. He really thought that anybody who was religious was an idiot. Also any non-industrialized country was backwards. So he was naturally chauvinistic about most of the world outside Europe.

The connection between Marxism and anti-racism is I think something that has been forged more by his disciples than the man himself.

Yeah it was a simplistic definition. But I stand by it.

[Rafiq]

Marx wasn't a racist, he just wasn't politically correct. Predominantly arab countries in Marx's time were incredibly backward, as was India, Slavic countries were incredibly underdeveloped and backward, etc.

There's nothing racist about acknowledging that.

[Imperius]

For me fascism is any ideology which emphasizes power, hierarchy and group identity over other values. It is a rejection of Enlightenment liberalism and a return to the tribal vitalism of ancient societies such as the Spartans. Fascism may be based on ethnicity, religion or nationality, and may support capitalism or socialism. It is a collectivist ideology, so it will have more traction in homogenous societies.

The biggest potential for fascism in the world today is probably in China, where the dominant Han have a long history of conquest and imperialism. The specter of a "national socialist" China with more than ten times the population of Nazi Germany should fill you with some combination of fear and awe at what they might be capable of. Fascism shows signs of returning in a big way in this century and history seems to be repeating itself. Of course, there is no guarantee that fascism will lose this time or that history has ended with the advent of global neoliberal capitalism.

[liberlict]

For me fascism is any ideology which emphasizes power, hierarchy and group identity over other values. It is a rejection of Enlightenment liberalism and a return to the tribal vitalism of ancient societies such as the Spartans. Fascism may be based on ethnicity, religion or nationality, and may support capitalism or socialism. It is a collectivist ideology, so it will have more traction in homogenous societies.

The biggest potential for fascism in the world today is probably in China, where the dominant Han have a long history of conquest and imperialism. The specter of a "national socialist" China with more than ten times the population of Nazi Germany should fill you with some combination of fear and awe at what they might be capable of. Fascism shows signs of returning in a big way in this century and history seems to be repeating itself. Of course, there is no guarantee that fascism will lose this time or that history has ended with the advent of global neoliberal capitalism.

I don't think so. I understand where you are coming from, but I subscribe to the idea that "war is obsolete". The costs of going to war far outweigh any potential benefits in our age, because all the major powers have nuclear weapons. Full scale war between modern technological armies is just a recipe for Armageddon. So it's just a power posturing game until we resolve a few lingering historical grudges.

[BIXX]

Absolutely. And since politics is the collective expression of human nature, any political movement which ignores such a powerful aspect of our nature will have problems. It's not enough for leftists to speak of "workers" as if they are robots without spiritual lives. The lack of spiritual power and psychological depth is why I'm not a leftist anymore myself. Nevertheless, I do enjoy these discussions.

Well prove your damn claim. We've kept asking you to do so, so please do.

[danyboy27]

The biggest potential for fascism in the world today is probably in China, where the dominant Han have a long history of conquest and imperialism. The specter of a "national socialist" China with more than ten times the population of Nazi Germany should fill you with some combination of fear and awe at what they might be capable of. Fascism shows signs of returning in a big way in this century and history seems to be repeating itself. Of course, there is no guarantee that fascism will lose this time or that history has ended with the advent of global neoliberal capitalism.
WTF.
Has a major player in the Region, China has never been historically a big imperialist power. Back in the antiquity china wasnt really big on invading other country for geographical and technological reasons. The mongols and proto-mongols where a big problem for them beccause of the lack of horses and every time a dynasty was trying to pursue them they got sliced up or lacked the logistics to supply their troops. Eventually they just bought them off with money and girls.

Now, if we look at the early 19th century, China was basically under the control of multiple foreign powers; brittish, japaneses, germans, americans, french etc etc.

First modern fight was against the Japanese agression and they got their asses kicked, where forced to give up taiwan and paid reparation.

And then there was the second Sino-japanese war, wich lead to unspeakable attrocities toward them by the japanese, again.

When the war was finally over, a quick civil war broke out, and the maoist won, despite all the help the nationalists received from the west.

Wich lead us to the first genuine modern intervention of China, Korea.
There where also Tibet, some territorial fight in India and the war against Vietnam.

None of these conflicts being wage for mystical reasons.