Communism killed 80 million people

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Where's this come from? I have been in a couple of political chats with colleagues and this person I know is consistently throwing this line at me whenever the topic even nears socialist politics, and everyone just shuts off from talking about leftist stuff in general - it's supposedly as 'bas as Hitler'.

Also, does anyone know of a streamlined response to this? It's not very conventional going through the extended history of Soviet degeneration, the differences between the various so called 'socialist' countries and their misrepresentation of Marxist politics, etc. whenever someone goes "STALIN! MAO! DEATH! DESTRUCTION!"

[Remus Bleys]

Say Capitalism killed 100 million.
Irish Potato Famine, Indian famine, imperialism, iraq war, etc.

[tuwix]

Where's this come from?

From bourgeois propaganda. The state capitalism regimes has been called 'communism' by the bourgeois media.

[Remus Bleys]

From bourgeois propaganda. The state capitalism regimes has been called 'communism' by the bourgeois media.
And by themsevles. And by quite a few leftists from around the world.

[DDR]

That comes from the "black book of communism", but IRC there it says it was 100 milion. My usual response, is that capitalism kills arround 25.000 people a day by starvation, that every year milions of people die because of illness that shouldn't be mortal (3 or 4 milion people die of diharrea), and it isn't communist propaganda, those numbers come fron the UN. Capitalism probably is psicopathy made into an social system.

[Invader Zim]

'Communism' hasn't killed anybody. Communism is an idea.

[Comrade Jacob]

The black book of communism. This book's authors admitted it had huge mathematical mistake and included things not related to communism and debatable things like the Ukrainian famine.
Also Alex Jones.

[Igor]

The black book of communism. This book's authors admitted it had huge mathematical mistake and included things not related to communism and debatable things like the Ukrainian famine.
Also Alex Jones.

yeah couple of the guys behind the book said a few years later that the whole book was compiled with amazing dishonesty and that courtois was from the beginning obsessed with reaching the number 100m - which he never even did, landing at 94

[Fourth Internationalist]

It's a futile attempt to discredit 'communism' which, of course, has never existed (yet). Suppose the number of people dead from those pseudo-socialist and capitalist regimes were 100 million. Even modern non-'Soviet' capitalism had killed more than that, and most deaths in those regimes were the result of quite unusual conditions. Not that I am trying to justify those capitalist regime's actions, but that's the way it often was.

Anyways, does anyone know the correct number of people were killed as a result of these regimes? I know it's in the millions, but I don't know the exact number.

[tuwix]

It's a futile attempt to discredit 'communism' which, of course, has never existed (yet).

It has and does.
Just view a movie below and turn the subtitles on:
E88gOuI3XJQ

But this kind of communism hasn't killed milions people because neither kind of it has.
However, the attempt wasn't futile. In the most of people opinion's communism is something very bad. But that's due to the propagnda.

[Comrade Jacob]

Anyways, does anyone know the correct number of people were killed as a result of these regimes? I know it's in the millions, but I don't know the exact number.

We'll never know, but the death of people could easily and does easily happen in capitalists countries so it is unimportant to socialism and isn't a criticism.

[Igor]

Anyways, does anyone know the correct number of people were killed as a result of these regimes? I know it's in the millions, but I don't know the exact number.

there is no 'correct number' because there are too many blurry lines and shades of gray in the issue involved, you can't draw the line somewhere and say "those people were killed by SOCIALISM but those people died because of something else"

also east bloc style socialism was v versatile and far from a monolith anyways so you kind of have to inspect each situation differently. you can't take stalin's purges (something like 600k executed according to soviet archives, btw) and cultural revolution and say, derg atrocities, put them together and say "socialism killed these people", you have to understand the completely different backgrounds behind each event.

[Fourth Internationalist]

But this kind of communism hasn't killed milions people because neither kind of it has.

I mean post-capitalist communism.


However, the attempt wasn't futile. In the most of people opinion's communism is something very bad. But that's due to the propagnda.The propaganda is the 'futile attempt' I am talking about.


there is no 'correct number' because there are too many blurry lines and shades of gray in the issue involved, you can't draw the line somewhere and say "those people were killed by SOCIALISM but those people died because of something else"

also east bloc style socialism was v versatile and far from a monolith anyways so you kind of have to inspect each situation differently. you can't take stalin's purges (something like 600k executed according to soviet archives, btw) and cultural revolution and say, derg atrocities, put them together and say "socialism killed these people", you have to understand the completely different backgrounds behind each event.

I know there isn't an exact number but I mean like a scholarly estimated range.

[Igor]

you'd have to look basically exclusively at things like purges because things like famine and civil wars are rarely particularly controlled situations where you can easily point blame to one system or government

e: can't really help you otherwise because i don't find the number game particularly interesting or even relevant

[goalkeeper]

If you are uncomfortable with apologising for vicious dictatorships draped in red flags killing people, don't be a stalinist.

[Comrade Jacob]

If you are uncomfortable with apologising for vicious dictatorships draped in red flags killing people, don't be a stalinist.

Because that is what socialism in one country is about, isn't it?

[Delenda Carthago]

Say Capitalism killed 100 million.
Irish Potato Famine, Indian famine, imperialism, iraq war, etc.
Some hundreds wars, labour accidents, coups, enviromental disasters etc.

[Igor]

If you are uncomfortable with apologising for vicious dictatorships draped in red flags killing people, don't be a stalinist.

setting some kind of basic historical facts straight and exposing how hypocritically most liberal types view not only basically all of world outside western europe and north america but in a very specific way the former east bloc countries is hardly stalinist apologia

i'm not the first one in line to sing praises of stalin and mao but this whole 100m dead rhetoric is important to counter not only because how massively dishonest it is but also because it turns against itself almost effortlessly

[Q]

Say Capitalism killed 100 million.
Irish Potato Famine, Indian famine, imperialism, iraq war, etc.


Some hundreds wars, labour accidents, coups, enviromental disasters etc.
Capitalism globally kills about 10 million children every single year, due to malnutrition and other poverty-related issues (these numbers come from UNICEF).

So yeah, capitalism has killed about 200 million children since the fall of the USSR...

[Brutus]

Ask them what they mean by that, and they'll get confused.

[Rurkel]

Yeah, if you are going to claim that Communist (specifically writing this adjective with capital letter to signify ideology) or Capitalist, for that matter, states "killed X people", you must spend some serious academic rigour in defining "killed by a state". Actual executions are unambiguous, but situations like people starving while there's food available to feed at least some of them, people being send to prison or a labour camp, then dying shortly after release from illness contacted there due to horrible conditions, civilians bombed in military operations ("MURDER from the skies" vs. "that's WAR, not GENOCIDE, gotcha?") even soldiers of the very same state being sent to certain deaths for a tactical military purpose etc. can provide enough material for slimy statisticians to cook the numbers as they see fit.

[Fred]

To the OP: There are a few options. For example, you can say that in the same time period capitalism is responsible for a billion deaths. Or even better tell them they don't know what they are talking about. You could also ask what the hell they mean by "killed." Usually these numbers (which are made up anyway) include everyone who DIED under a given regime.

That's often the crux of the argument and it is absurd. So you can argue that x amount of Chinese died during the Great Leap Forward from famine. Well, the GLF didn't cause the famine -- China already had a VERY extensive history of periodic famine. And even if the famine was exacerbated or caused by mistaken government policy, is that murder?" This is not to excuse some of the nefarious activities of the CCP under Mao -- but the knuckleheads who make up those numbers hate Mao, not because he wasn't a good enough communist, but because he led a revolution.

The same holds true for Stalin's regime -- that murdered hundreds of thousands of Communists (some of them communists). That their agricultural policies led to starvation for many is a crime I suppose, but not murder.

[Pirx]

Anyways, does anyone know the correct number of people were killed as a result of these regimes? I know it's in the millions, but I don't know the exact number.

As far as I remember the mean share is 20 million Stalinist victims (famines & Gulag) and 60 million Maoist Deads (Great Leap forward). But all these figures have been refuted since. Maybe the capitalist insurrection under Yeltsin had a more devastating effect on Russian demographics than Stalin ever could achieve.

[Delenda Carthago]

Lets not forget that the first time capitalism was established, the name of the period was "The reign of Terror"

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[Brutus]

They forget England 1649 and France 1793.

[Lenin1986]

In Ireland in 1845 to 1851 there was what some people call the "potato blight" or "the great famine". But what was really a cull of the Irish peasantry or a holocaust. 1,500,000 had to emigrate and between 1,000,000 and 1,500,000 died.

This is only one part of history in one country. Capitalism has been murdering and butchering people for a long time now and far far more people have lost their lives because of it.

:hammersickle: :marx: :engles: :star2: :trotski: :che:

[Ele'ill]

"hey communism failing, a communism we don't necessarily want to recreate, cost a lot of lives maybe depending on the source and it was terrible but capitalism functioning has cost how many more"

[Glitchcraft]

Yup Communism killed 100 000 000.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpuoe2pT4e1qmlhk8o1_400.jpg
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[Delenda Carthago]

They forget England 1649 and France 1793.
What happened in England?

[DDR]

What happened in England?

Comwell's Commonweath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_England)

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I always ask how they survived the horrible global genocide which is communism.

[Red Commissar]

It should be worth noting for people unfamiliar with the "Black Book of Communism", that it's a collection of essays from academics criticizing the experience of Communism and provided what they claimed were accurate death tolls. Even ignoring the latter a lot of their other criticisms were more politically motivated, going beyond "oh it's Stalin's fault" that is more common to claiming Marxism at its root prone to mass destruction. As a bit of trivia, the current President of Germany, Joachim Gauck, also contributed to the project in his capacity as an opponent of the DDR. They've tried to avoid criticism by pointing out that they had access to declassified documents through Russia, but even then they had probably engaged in number cooking. It seems a lot of people somehow've been able to twist declassified Soviet figures to their end, claiming both low and high deaths depending on the perspective of the author.

The Black Book of Communism can be compared to an earlier work published at the end of the 40s, The God that Failed, which was a series of essays from former Communists who became disillusioned one way or another with communism, typically as a result of something the Soviet Union did.

The high figure in the PRC was also repeated more recently in Mao: The Untold Story which achieved high sales, especially for a biographical/history book, which as a whole is pretty negative towards Mao. Like the Black Book they claim to have had access to documents proving this death toll though this has of course come under scrutiny.

The end goal really is to paint the experience of "Communism" as wholly negative, even worse than the Holocaust. It's not really coincidental that to drive this home authors often make a note to point out that Stalin and Mao were worse than Hitler and the Holocaust. This is not to say that atrocities and such did occur under these two, but the whole affair has been turned into a political circus. Honestly though by this point it's more like beating a dead horse as far as academia is concerned.

[Delenda Carthago]

The Black Bible/Book of Communism is considered a joke by any serious historian, even bourgeois. When you start a converstation with someone that uses it as a tool, stop it, slap him/her in the mouth and go have yourself a beer to relax.

[Orange Juche]

Say Capitalism killed 100 million.
Irish Potato Famine, Indian famine, imperialism, iraq war, etc.

But isn't that just a strawman argument?

[Carlos Markus]

I came across this forum looking for information on how many people Stalin has murdered. I have researched it before and was surprised to learn that the numbers are way below the often quoted 100 million figures that are often so casually mentioned by conservatives and liberals. I was so happy to see a lefty forum that I decided to join it. It is great you all are here.

When the Kremlin archives were actually examined the number was around 600,000. This is way too much as well. But, it is a far cry from the tens of millions or the hundred million number.

Stalin has basically been slandered. The capitalists have to do this because otherwise they have to admit that Stalin was an incredible leader. Stalin industrialized the Soviet Union in the space of a generation. People were given access to education, health care and jobs. He defeated the Nazi's. These are not small accomplishments by any means.

I personally hate it when I tell someone that I am a Marxist and they lump me in with NAZI's. Setting the record straight on this is something that needs to be done.


I was going to post links of my sources but I got a prompt saying that I need to make 25 posts before I can. Here are the titles at least. If you google them you should find the links there.
Victims of Stalinism and the Soviet Secret Police: The Comparability and Reliability of the Archival Data-Not the Last Word

HOW MANY DID COMMUNIST REGIMES MURDER?

[RedMaterialist]

Where's this come from? I have been in a couple of political chats with colleagues and this person I know is consistently throwing this line at me whenever the topic even nears socialist politics, and everyone just shuts off from talking about leftist stuff in general - it's supposedly as 'bas as Hitler'.

Also, does anyone know of a streamlined response to this? It's not very conventional going through the extended history of Soviet degeneration, the differences between the various so called 'socialist' countries and their misrepresentation of Marxist politics, etc. whenever someone goes "STALIN! MAO! DEATH! DESTRUCTION!"

Whenever somebody says that I say that capitalism has killed 500 million, raped, tortured and enslaved 1 billion.

[The Intransigent Faction]

But isn't that just a strawman argument?

No.

[Lord Testicles]

Yup Communism killed 100 000 000.

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Did they die from all that wasted food pictured?

[Hagalaz]

Where's this come from? I have been in a couple of political chats with colleagues and this person I know is consistently throwing this line at me whenever the topic even nears socialist politics, and everyone just shuts off from talking about leftist stuff in general - it's supposedly as 'bas as Hitler'.

Also, does anyone know of a streamlined response to this? It's not very conventional going through the extended history of Soviet degeneration, the differences between the various so called 'socialist' countries and their misrepresentation of Marxist politics, etc. whenever someone goes "STALIN! MAO! DEATH! DESTRUCTION!"

Millions have died under Marxist regimes.
Millions have also died under other political systems.

[Red Economist]

Where's this come from? I have been in a couple of political chats with colleagues and this person I know is consistently throwing this line at me whenever the topic even nears socialist politics, and everyone just shuts off from talking about leftist stuff in general - it's supposedly as 'bad as Hitler'.The statistic comes from the black book of communism, where it is claimed that communism as a system killed around 100 million people. It is most often used in a highly propagandist way as an alternative to 'shut the fuck up you commie bastard-your opinion doesn't mean anything'. The claim has been and is used by far right groups to legitimize anti-communism.


Also, does anyone know of a streamlined response to this? It's not very conventional going through the extended history of Soviet degeneration, the differences between the various so called 'socialist' countries and their misrepresentation of Marxist politics, etc. whenever someone goes "STALIN! MAO! DEATH! DESTRUCTION!"The two basic response to this are:
a) challenge the accuracy of the figures.
b) say that capitalism killed more and is therefore 'worse'.

Both of these responses will 'work' just fine if you want to win a debate, unless you're actually debating someone who cares about the issue and is not simply trying to score political points. Any serious discussion of the question must actually admit that 'communists' were responsible for killing people-regardless of how many- and that as both a revolutionary and dictatorial system of government had a 'right' to do so (whether this is in terms of 'moral right' or 'historical necessity' depends on you're relationship to Marxist ideology)- so comparisons with capitalism are irrelevant because you have to assert some 'right' by which to kill people based on the exercise of force, independent of capitalism. revenge and class hatred are not sufficient grounds for this because they do not imply a limit or end to the killing and merely provide grounds for escalating it indefinetely, nor any responsibility to protect life that could result in a recognizably human society.

So at this point- it should be self-evident that no: there is no streamlined response to this. This is where all the ethical issues which arise out of revolutionary politics begin, and where the broader question of communism's place in twentieth century history as the story of human social and moral development really starts.

This has been THE problem for communists the world over since at least 1956, when the Russian Communist Party published copies of Khrushchev secret speech (and a copy was leaked to the US press and was re-published in the west). To a lesser extent, there were problems in 1939, with the Nazi-Soviet Pact, which from's Stalin's point of view was a piece of realpolitik in the USSR avoiding war with Germany (at least in the short-run), but from the international communist movement, it was a betrayal of the struggle against fascism and so communist parties lost support. In one form or another, the excesses of violence have proven to be the divisive issue such as for left communists (Attacks against worker's and peasants under lenin), trotskyists (when stalin started attacking members of the communist party) etc.
As Red Commissar pointed out, a group of ex-communists published a book called The God that failed, which gives accounts of how several people made the journey from being communists to becoming anti-communists. They describe what is called the 'kronstadt' (in reference to the Kronstadt rebellion of 1921) in which they undergo a long, silent moral conflict between the dictatorial and inhumane means of achieving communism, with the democratic, humane and utopian ends of communist itself.

If the person you're debating says "Stalin killed..." or "Mao killed..." or "Pol Pot killed...", you can say that it was not them personally who did the killing, but that it required an entire state apparatus of people willing to do so. In this way, communism cannot simply be dissmisedd as the movement of a psychotic few, whether utopian intellectuals or totalitarian bureaucrats as is often done- but that it actually represented a much deeper set of desires felt by a large group of people, terrifying as that maybe. In otherwords, communism was not in itself based on a mass deception by an elite but represented an aspect of 'human nature' as legitimate as capitalism/liberalism. This would at least put you in a position to accept that you have as much right to hold your view even with the recoginition of the destructiveness of communist ideology as anyone else, but where you go from there- I don't know. that really goes into questions about how human beings respond to death on a less rational or political way and to a much more emotional and personal level. So at least respect the question when it is asked because it does represent actual people.

Most forms of communism to date have been too authoritarian to allow that kind of introspection because it implies a right to individual conscience, free thought and a relatively private emotional life, as well as a fairly well developed sense of individuality or self to respond to our own personal mortality. the emphasis on rational, scientific atheism means communists avoided discussions of individual death because militant atheism attacks the existence of religion, the supernatural and the afterlife irrespective of whether religion fulfills an objective psychological need to respond to our mortality, the question of our existence and how we respond to our relative insignificance and powerlessness in the universe, whilst reconciling such knowledge with self-awareness. there has been use of collectivistic ethics by communists to disregard the idea of an intrinsic value in human life as an individualistic illusion, especially if someones take the view that people are the instruments to build communism- and I hope the danger of this is self-evident.

So the specific responses to this is still a question very much open to debate because communism represents the triumph of atheist and rational humanism over religious morality. Much of the weight of the 'communism killed 100 million people' stems from the use of ethical absolutes and pacifist morality that is common in western societies because of the persistence of religion and as a idealist rationalization of the human condition. these are still things that have rarely been asked in any depth because of how heavily liberalism relies on a belief in the supernatural to justify itself as the moral order (e.g. 'natural law', 'natural rights', 'human nature', etc.) and therefore adopts religious ethics in a secular guise (e.g.the Judeo-christian ethic of 'thou shall not kill' is inherited into our secular, liberal morality in spite the fact this has never been an ethical absolute in practice.) Anyway, this probably doesn't answer your question, but I hope shows you where it could go- and just what a world of trouble it could get us in to if we re-write thousands of years of religious and secular moral philosophy in a fit of Militant and arguably Nietzschean atheism.

[RedWorker]

it's supposedly as 'bas as Hitler'. Also, does anyone know of a streamlined response to this? It's not very conventional going through the extended history of Soviet degeneration, the differences between the various so called 'socialist' countries and their misrepresentation of Marxist politics, etc. whenever someone goes "STALIN! MAO! DEATH! DESTRUCTION!"

Ok, listen. I'm going to teach you the perfect solution, but you actually have to follow this to the letter or it's not going to work. When somebody does this you have to shout "Слава Сталин! Death to the bourgeoisie!" while raising your fist and then proceed to behave as a neonazi would against a Jew or something.

Also say stuff like "Well, at least Hitler was better than liberalism and cared about the working class even if his ideology was wrong. He actually did many positive things for the people."

[John Nada]

I remember reading an old "Guinness Book of World Records" from the 80's. Under worst genocides, it lists the USSR and China. It said that there was a propaganda war after the Sino-Soviet split. Chinese radio said that the Soviets killed 20 million. In retaliation, the Soviets said China killed 80 million. Supposedly this confirmed anti-communist propaganda. If true, it sounds like they actually got the figures from the infamous "Black Book" itself! Maybe you could ask the accuser why they believe communist propaganda.:lol:

The "Guinness Book of World Records" also claimed that the Soviets executed 40,000 people a year. Not sure if that's true. Maybe during the purges of the 30's? Because I think that would be close to one estimate of, IIRC, 600,000 killed, according to a post-Soviet estimate of the KGB(could still be lying, who knows). Add that to the lower end of the Soviet famine, 2-3 million, you get about 2.6-3.6 million. It's still pretty fucked up, even if you try to wave it off as due bad weather, poor organizing, pre-war paranoia and those "fucking kulak and fascist wreckers!":rolleyes:

One advantage capitalist have over communist is their focus on the individual over the collective. Under socialist construction(or whatever it was), responsibility is suppose to be shared by the community. When things go to shit, the whole system gets the blame. Under capitalism, all problems are your own fault. Success under "socialism" is incidental, success under capitalism is due to it's supposed incentive for success. This leads to the "Just World" distortion, where millions of preventable deaths each year under capitalism are just due to individual faults and nature working it's magic, often with implied racism.

[Hatshepsut]

'Communism' hasn't killed anybody. Communism is an idea.


If you are uncomfortable with apologising for vicious dictatorships draped in red flags killing people, don't be a Stalinist.

Posts before mine have touched nearly all the issues my redundant addition to this discussion will.

20th century death tolls tend to rise over time. But they were huge. I don’t agree that they’re irrelevant. But does anyone ask why it all happened?

Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot headed brutal regimes. They faced ruthless enemies. They were determined, rightly or wrongly, to succeed at all costs. Survival margins were slim enough due to the harsh conditions in their countries, that only death made an impression sufficient to modify collective behavior. So, it was imposed.

I think Pol Pot outside the mainstream of Communist movements. Lenin wasn’t preaching an agrarian solution, or the elimination of everyone suspected of being an intellectual. Lenin distrusted Stalin despite needing him, and didn’t want him to become general secretary. But Lenin had a stroke which put him out of the game. Stalin may have been afflicted by a mental ailment, paranoid personality disorder, although this is uncertain because his early social life doesn’t seem to have been circumscribed as often occurs (PubMed website).

Most of the deaths came by war or by consequences of policy rather than direct police action. The USSR lost 20 million at war with Germany, and internal unrest in the PRC amounted to hardly less than a low-intensity civil war throughout its formative years. Although the leaderships knew lots of people would die in the process of forcing extremely conservative, reactionary societies over to Communism, it is unfair to impute direct intention on their part to cause as many deaths as actually took place. They were not in complete control over situations in their countries until much later on.

I don’t believe Lenin, Mao, or even Stalin really wanted millions dead in gratuitous violence. They weren’t immune to becoming corrupted by their own power—yet post hoc they were made into demons by critics who never cared about the deaths as they were going on, but about scoring ideological points. Once committed to their courses they no longer had the option to back down.

No one should deny or sugar-coat Communist deaths. I don’t agree with how these leaders acted. The question is relevant because a future revolution will cause deaths. Fair likelihood the Western system will acquire characteristics inimical to human welfare, with only use of force able to correct matters. It’s important for Leftist and Communist political theorists to explain how the lessons of the 20th century will be learnt, and how the next revolution can minimize its blood flows.

Communism enjoys no monopoly on horror. When Communist societies finally brought warfare to a halt and restored civil order, mass killing stopped. The postwar PRC and USSR were authoritarian yet hardly murderous. Their models contain elements that can be used in future governance.

[LeftAgain]

I'm unsure of where the numbers come from, but how about this; how many people have died as the result of just christian atrocities, or broaden it to "Christianity and Religion Have Caused More Deaths Than Anything Else in History" (This is a quotation from a website by Scot from SC. I guess I can't include links; so you will have to find it yourself). I've not checked the statistics, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were true.

[Attlee1945]

Capitalism has killed millions of people.

[Sea]

'Communism' hasn't killed anybody. Communism is an idea.Cocaine hasn't killed anybody. It just sits there on the table or wherever you keep it. Same goes for guns and maybe even ebola.

edit: maybe I should clarify - I'm not being sarcastic, my point is that this "X hurts Y people" thing is flawed and depends on so many other things. Communism aside, the whole argument is flawed.