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Sotionov
18th August 2013, 05:20
I have purposefully posted this topic in philosophy and not the theory forum- it doesn't concern the existing ideological frameworks, but the philosophical meaning of anarchism.

I want to raise three questions that I have thought and discussed with some friends about and their relation with to philosophy of anarchism- capitalism, state, and elections.

So, everyone familiar with the history and the etymology of the term anarchism knows that two meanings most associated with it are falsifications, that it doesn't means advocation of chaos and mayhem nor of the simple abolition of the government, but that what it means is a rejection of hierarchies among people. An anarchist by definition is not for chaos which implies not principles being upheld, being that he's for a system devoid of hierarchies, obviously a principle that anarchism posits that should be upheld; and anarchism also doesn't oppose only hierarchies in politics, but also in economy and society in general.

So, let's start with the question of state. Anarchism is against the government, against the state. But it against the state per se? Is it against the state as we know it, as has existed throughout history, or against all possible states? What about a non-hierarchical state? If such a state would to exist, it seems that anarchism would not oppose it.

Now, all seminal anarchist thinkers were also voluntaryists, not only against hierarchies, but also also against coercion, they didn't want to force anyone into this or that form of anarchist organization, they thought that all should be free not to participate as long as they don't oppress or exploit anyone, as encapsulated by Malatesta's comment that I have quoted in my signature. They obviously wouldn't support any form of state, being that it's existence implies at least some rudimentary form of involuntary participation, e.g. a minimal possible tax in an individualist or a mutualist community.

Still, the point remains that people, if they can organize themselves into an anarcho-communist society- can just as easily form a non-hierarchical, directly democratic state; and being that the core of anarchism is opposition to hierarchy, such an organization could be, it seems, properly called an anarchist state.

The next point- capitalism. I assume that we all aware that the conception of voluntaryist capitalism as advocated by Molinari, Rothbard and those who agree with them cannot be called "anarcho-capitalism" being that wage-labor is intrinsically hierarchical, and therefore such a name used for their ideas is a contradiction in terms.

But what is a fact, although one not often pondered upon, is that capitalism can be modified to be non-hierarchical. Such a form of capitalism is in fact advocated by David Ellerman, a great philosopher- a master of rationalistic, enlightenment thought based argumentation against wage-labor. He does oppose wage-labor, but not other unearned incomes. He sees nothing wrong in rent of property, including money, which was by all anarchist thinkers, being socialistic, seen as exploitation. So, even though he does oppose wage-labor, and is for workers' control over production, he is still a capitalist; he advocates abolition of capitalists that are bosses, but not of capitalists that are rentiers.

Yes, anarchism historically emerged from the labor, socialist (anti-capitalist) movement, but that by definition means that it is not identical to socialism. Is it it's sub-part, and can it be divorced from socialism? Well, socialism is an idea economic, whereas anarchism is wider, and even where they meet they are not necessarily connected. Socialism can in theory be hierarchical, with the positions of authority in the economy being regulated by certain rules, filled by election and rotation, and people in those positions being accountable and recallable. Just like socialism can be non-anarchist, it looks like anarchism can be non-socialistic.

An anarchist society- society without hierarchical relations among people, could adopt Ellermanian economy, there is no impossibility and contradiction there, and therefore it would seem that there is a possible society which could be called anarcho-capitalist without that name being a contradiction in terms.

Not only that, but having in mind the previous point- it could also be state anarcho-capitalist society.

One last point. Almost since anarchism's inception, to this day, members of the anarchist movement have as a rule advocated direct action and opposed electioneering. But literally all arguments that anarchists give against participation in elections are practical ones, they all concern themselves with how it's not practical, but not that it's per se non-anarchist to do it. There are anarchists that say that electioneering is incompatible with anarchist on principle, but that is not true- it is only generally so, but it is not necessarily so. Electioneering does in general imply hierarchical party organization, but does not imply it in itself, being that it is possible for a non-hierarchically organized party to run for elections. In fact, it is practiced by the impossibilists. Therefore, direct action needn't be the only method of struggle for anarchism, being that political action, too, can be non-hierarchically organized.

While discussing these questions with some friends, the conclusion turned out to be that it is possible to be an anarchist that is a capitalist, a statist, or supporter of electioneering, or even all three at once, there is no contradiction in those ideas with the core philosophical notion of anarchism.

Personally, I myself am a state-anarchist and in favor of participation in elections, I am, as can be seen from my title and tendency- an impossibilist and a "horizontalist without adjectives".

Thanks for reading, all rational and constructive comments are welcome.

The Garbage Disposal Unit
18th August 2013, 06:24
Not to be a dick, but, like, there's a pretty big difference between what an "anarchist" might be able to philosophically justify and what a coherent anarchist practice could actually look like. Honestly, all of these conceptions (of the state, of elections, of capitalism) are wildly ahistorical, and ripped from their real context. It's an novel little thought experiment, but it's not a politics.

BIXX
18th August 2013, 08:54
I'm with VMC on this one. It's kinda a fun idea but it almost just seems like a way to validate an-caps and anarcho-fascists :laugh:

On a different note, I think your idea of an anarchist state is wildly incorrect.

Lets start with your claim.


So, let's start with the question of state. Anarchism is against the government, against the state. But it against the state per se? Is it against the state as we know it, as has existed throughout history, or against all possible states? What about a non-hierarchical state? If such a state would to exist, it seems that anarchism would not oppose it.

Now, all seminal anarchist thinkers were also voluntaryists, not only against hierarchies, but also also against coercion, they didn't want to force anyone into this or that form of anarchist organization, they thought that all should be free not to participate as long as they don't oppress or exploit anyone, as encapsulated by Malatesta's comment that I have quoted in my signature. They obviously wouldn't support any form of state, being that it's existence implies at least some rudimentary form of involuntary participation, e.g. a minimal possible tax in an individualist or a mutualist community.

Still, the point remains that people, if they can organize themselves into an anarcho-communist society- can just as easily form a non-hierarchical, directly democratic state; and being that the core of anarchism is opposition to hierarchy, such an organization could be, it seems, properly called an anarchist state.

It defeats itself. The second paragraph I have quoted shows why anarchism and statism are inherently antithetical to one a other. The reason those anarchist thinkers were voluntaryists is because coercion immediately implies hierarchy (which anarchism is vehemently opposed to). The hierarchy is obvious, those who are coerced under those who are coercing.

Your next claim regarding capitalism is also troubling.


The next point- capitalism. I assume that we all aware that the conception of voluntaryist capitalism as advocated by Molinari, Rothbard and those who agree with them cannot be called "anarcho-capitalism" being that wage-labor is intrinsically hierarchical, and therefore such a name used for their ideas is a contradiction in terms.

But what is a fact, although one not often pondered upon, is that capitalism can be modified to be non-hierarchical. Such a form of capitalism is in fact advocated by David Ellerman, a great philosopher- a master of rationalistic, enlightenment thought based argumentation against wage-labor. He does oppose wage-labor, but not other unearned incomes. He sees nothing wrong in rent of property, including money, which was by all anarchist thinkers, being socialistic, seen as exploitation. So, even though he does oppose wage-labor, and is for workers' control over production, he is still a capitalist; he advocates abolition of capitalists that are bosses, but not of capitalists that are rentiers.

Yes, anarchism historically emerged from the labor, socialist (anti-capitalist) movement, but that by definition means that it is not identical to socialism. Is it it's sub-part, and can it be divorced from socialism? Well, socialism is an idea economic, whereas anarchism is wider, and even where they meet they are not necessarily connected. Socialism can in theory be hierarchical, with the positions of authority in the economy being regulated by certain rules, filled by election and rotation, and people in those positions being accountable and recallable. Just like socialism can be non-anarchist, it looks like anarchism can be non-socialistic.

An anarchist society- society without hierarchical relations among people, could adopt Ellermanian economy, there is no impossibility and contradiction there, and therefore it would seem that there is a possible society which could be called anarcho-capitalist without that name being a contradiction in terms.

The bold is where I'd like you to look at. This again forms a hierarchy. If the person cannot get a house without increasing the wealth of someone else, they are forming a hierarchy. Plus, it implies there are propertied and non-propertied classes, which is another hierarchy that is antithetical to anarchism.

To the italicized bit: a capitalist is a member of a capitalist class, not a supporter of capitalism.

Now to your final point.


One last point. Almost since anarchism's inception, to this day, members of the anarchist movement have as a rule advocated direct action and opposed electioneering. But literally all arguments that anarchists give against participation in elections are practical ones, they all concern themselves with how it's not practical, but not that it's per se non-anarchist to do it. There are anarchists that say that electioneering is incompatible with anarchist on principle, but that is not true- it is only generally so, but it is not necessarily so. Electioneering does in general imply hierarchical party organization, but does not imply it in itself, being that it is possible for a non-hierarchically organized party to run for elections. In fact, it is practiced by the impossibilists. Therefore, direct action needn't be the only method of struggle for anarchism, being that political action, too, can be non-hierarchically organized.

What are you electing people to if you don't have a state? Furthermore, why are you electing people? If you're electing someone to make a decision regarding say, where a tree is planted, they have the ultimate authority, and that is another problematic hierarchy.

I think I've said everything that I meant to, if I haven't I will finish later.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
18th August 2013, 09:10
You've only looked at one part of anarchism - that which rejects hierarchy, and other voluntarist elements of anarchism. You say that anarchism can be divorced from socialism, but not so much that anarchists lose any economic analysis of society, and not so much that one can tie the conclusions of how an economy would be run so as to fulfil both anarchist and capitalist criteria.

You fail to understand that, all things said, anarchists are communists, and wish for a communist - not a capitalist - society. Therein lies why your notion is nothing more than a mere flight of fancy, and a dangerous one at that.

Sotionov
18th August 2013, 20:27
It's an novel little thought experiment, but it's not a politics.
Sure, as I wrote in beginning of my message, that's why I posted it in Philosophy and not Theory.


It defeats itself. The second paragraph I have quoted shows why anarchism and statism are inherently antithetical to one a other. The reason those anarchist thinkers were voluntaryists is because coercion immediately implies hierarchy (which anarchism is vehemently opposed to). The hierarchy is obvious, those who are coerced under those who are coercing.
Is coercion a type of hierarchy, or separate from it? I guess that a case could be made that violence or a threat of it is hierarchy, but I don't know if we can easily disregard the option that it is a separate thing. But I get your point, on first look it seems that coercion is hierarchy.


The bold is where I'd like you to look at. This again forms a hierarchy. If the person cannot get a house without increasing the wealth of someone else, they are forming a hierarchy.
But necessity of renting is implied in it's existence. E.g. I have the possibility of buying a hairclipper, but I instead ask someone to borrow me theirs. If that someone asks me for rent, and I pay it to him, there's no hierarchy there.


What are you electing people to if you don't have a state? Furthermore, why are you electing people? If you're electing someone to make a decision regarding say, where a tree is planted, they have the ultimate authority[quote]
I was talking if someone would want to in the present society advocate the establishment of a capitalist state-anarchism. He could do it not only by direct action, but also by elections. So, people would stand in election in order to pass the laws that would transform the present state in a non-hierarchical one, and abolish hierarchy in general. Such a person, a party organization being non-hierarchical, would be a plain messenger of the party's will to change the system into a capitalist state-anarchist one.

[QUOTE=The Boss;2653300]You fail to understand that, all things said, anarchists are communists, and wish for a communist - not a capitalist - society.
This is simply not true, anarchism can be non-communist.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
18th August 2013, 21:09
This is simply not true, anarchism can be non-communist.

I'm not really sure what to say to this. Anarchists are communists in that they desire, as an end goal, a communist society.

Where have you read/found otherwise?

BIXX
18th August 2013, 22:21
Is coercion a type of hierarchy?

No, coercion is a tool of hierarchy.


I guess that a case could be made that violence or a threat of it is hierarchy, but I don't know if we can easily disregard the option that it is a separate thing. But I get your point, on first look it seems that coercion is hierarchy.

It is entwined with hierarchy. Coercion implies that one person is imposing their view or actions upon someone else, which is hierarchical. So coercion, manipulation, etc... Is inherently in-anarchist.


But necessity of renting is implied in it's existence. E.g. I have the possibility of buying a hairclipper, but I instead ask someone to borrow me theirs. If that someone asks me for rent, and I pay it to him, there's no hierarchy there.

Actually, there is. They are necessitating that you reduce your well being for letting you use something that it will not reduce their well being to let you use. That is another hierarchy.


I was talking if someone would want to in the present society advocate the establishment of a capitalist state-anarchism. He could do it not only by direct action, but also by elections. So, people would stand in election in order to pass the laws that would transform the present state in a non-hierarchical one, and abolish hierarchy in general. Such a person, a party organization being non-hierarchical, would be a plain messenger of the party's will to change the system into a capitalist state-anarchist one.

The problem with that is that elections require a state which requires hierarchy, as I showed above.


This is simply not true, anarchism can be non-communist.

Since when is anarchism not communist?

Sasha
18th August 2013, 23:02
I think this thread belongs in OI..
And so does the OP,
Long overdue restriction

Remus Bleys
19th August 2013, 02:29
I'm not really sure what to say to this. Anarchists are communists in that they desire, as an end goal, a communist society.

Where have you read/found otherwise?
Wasn't anarcho-collectivism basically a stateless version of lower-stage communism? (Each according to his work)
Its socialist, but it ain't communist. IS Bakunin not an anarchist?

BIXX
19th August 2013, 23:18
Wasn't anarcho-collectivism basically a stateless version of lower-stage communism? (Each according to his work)
Its socialist, but it ain't communist. IS Bakunin not an anarchist?

He was an anarchist in that he believed in abolishing hierarchies, however, he just managed to miss the fact that collectivism is hierarchical.