Ho Chi Minh

[StringsofG]

I am curious as to the opinions on Ho Chi Minh. As the nephew of a Vietnam war veteran I hold great respect for him. My uncle may have battled against him, but he gained respect for the spirit of his people.

I am amazed that he is not more revered, having stood against so many Imperialist powers and won. He seems to embody the spirit of revolution.

How do you feel about his life an actions? Also, what resources are available to learn more about the man?

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Bourgeois nationalist who looked towards the Soviets for economic support.

He's a complete badass though, and one-upped America and China's- two of the major world powers of the time - imperial military efforts against the Vietcong. That's pretty insane.

Don't think for a second that he was any kind of communist, though.

Here's Marxists.orgs' archive on him: http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/ho-chi-minh/

[Zealot]

I would recommend William Duiker's biography Ho Chi Minh: A Life because it's a relatively objective account. The Vietnamese government apparently liked it too but requested that he remove all references of Ho Chi Minh's relationships, which he refused to do. Some people in the South still resent him but he's quite popular in the North obviously. As I understand, he worked tirelessly to free his country, spent most of his time on the run, united three of the countries communist parties, and ultimately died before the country achieved victory.

[Brutus]

Just another national-liberation leader. A nationalist who waved a red flag to get support of the soviets (as Jam said).

[Karlorax]

I see him as a kind of semi-Maoist whose revolution got cut off early by revisionists.



Who is Ho Chi Minh? What about the Vietnamese revolution?
Ho Chi Minh (May 19th, 1890 to September 2nd, 1969) was the leader of the Vietnamese independence movement from 1941 onward. He led the Democratic Republic of Vietnam established in 1945. His forces defeated the French Union in 1954 at Đien Biên Phu France was forced to give up its empire in Southeast Asia. The Geneva Accords partitioned the country. Ho led the Democratic Republic of Vietnam in the northern part of the country. The United States and other imperialists established a client state in the southern part of Vietnam. According to the accords, there was to be an election to reunify the country in 1956, but the imperialist-backed regime rejected it because most voters would have favored Ho in an election. A war of national liberation against imperialism followed. China and the Soviet Union supported the North. The United States and other imperialists supported the South. The United States invaded and occupied the South to prop up the unpopular regime there. In total, 3,403,100 United States military personnel served in the Southeast Asia theater (Vietnam, Laos, Kampuchea, and Thailand) over the course of the conflict. Against overwhelming technological superiority, the Vietnamese were able to defeat the imperialists and liberate their country. People power won out. The cost was high. Millions unnecessarily died from the conflict in Southeast Asia. “Uncle Ho” became a symbol of the righteous struggle against imperialism worldwide. However, the revolution in Vietnam was stillborn. Even though they defeated the Western imperialists, they came into a close relationship with the Soviet imperialists. Ho represented a more radical, communist, Maoist-leaning line in the Party. Ho’s more radical policies got sidelined by Le Duan’s revisionist group. Le Duan was a big proponent of the Theory of Productive Forces. This thwarted communist social revolution. from: http://llco.org/revolutionary-history-initial-summations/
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Currently reading, dare to join me? I am no Leading Light Communist, but I am studying their work for my MA thesis

Leading Light on Conspiracy Theory is Intelligent Design (http://llco.org/leading-light-on-conspiracy-theory-is-intelligent-design/)
Was Lin Biao guilty plotting a coup? Part 1 of 2 (draft) (http://llco.org/draft-was-lin-biao-guilty-plotting-a-coup-part-1-of-2/)
Revisiting Value and Exploitation (http://llco.org/revisiting-value-and-exploitation/)
What about the Gulag? Mao’s errors? Stalin’s? (http://llco.org/revolutionary-history-initial-summations/)

[Comrade Jacob]

Say what you want about him but you must respect him beating the ass of the USA.

[TheEmancipator]

Say what you want about him but you must respect him beating the ass of the USA.

Not sure why you single out the USA, since he gave the same treatment to other imperialist powers trying to exploit his country ie France.

[Zergling]

I don't understand the hate he is getting for being a nationalist. Back then it was the way to get things done and he did it to that affect quite well. Either way his actions led to the imperialist nations to leave Vietnam alone. That shouldn't be scoffed at.

[UncleLenin]

Ho Chi Minh was a great Socialist. He liberated his country from French Imperialism and defeated a superpower while he was at it. For those who say he was not a Communist, you are right, but he was a Socialist. He is one of my favorite Socialists and, in my opinion, he should be more revered.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I read his poetry, and often feel as though English translations fail to do it justice.

[Goblin]

He slaughtered trots. Though that´s probably a good thing to his followers:laugh:

[Omsk]

He was an amazing organizer and a revolutionary hero, a hero of the national-liberation struggle. Although he made mistakes after the XX congress, he never fully endorsed the revisionist line.

[StringsofG]

Thanks to all for the replies. As far as the nationalistic tendency goes, I believe it was a powerful tool in his specific struggle. He wanted a free people and the only way to accomplish this was to unite under a Vietnamese banner. To further expound on this, I see the death of nationalistic spirits a pipe dream in the early revolution. To think that anyone can drop their pride of nation as of it were a balled piece of paper is senile. World unity will be a steady but slow process.

I do see irony in the entire struggle however..... After 20+ years of struggle and defeating France, The U.S, and scoffing China; he and all those he fought against serve the same masters. The wealthy scoundrels eventually subdued all major players.

[Leftsolidarity]

This is a general warning to everyone for one-liners.

The only reason infractions haven't been given yet is because so many people have done it. If it continues, it will be infracted. This is learning, your shitty responses are not welcome here.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I don't understand the hate he is getting for being a nationalist. Back then it was the way to get things done and he did it to that affect quite well. Either way his actions led to the imperialist nations to leave Vietnam alone. That shouldn't be scoffed at.

It wasn't a way to implement socialist politics though, was it? Ho Chi Minh did great things in his efforts against the US, France and China, but he was by no means a communist nor was he interested in working-class politics. Scoff at that or not - it's the truth.

He's admirable but if you had a party centered around his beliefs here at the current moment then hell no there is no way any self-described leftist would even think of supporting someone like that.

"It was patriotism, not communism, that inspired me to do the things I did." - Ho Chi Minh

[Zergling]

It wasn't a way to implement socialist politics though, was it? Ho Chi Minh did great things in his efforts against the US, France and China, but he was by no means a communist nor was he interested in working-class politics. Scoff at that or not - it's the truth.
There is no way to know what Ho Chi Minh would have set out to do once Vietnam was united. Government politics during war time and during times of peace are far different. What you're implying is mere speculation. We can never know. People are quick to forgive Lenin's faults because of the World War at the time but not Ho Chi Minh?

[Astarte]

It wasn't a way to implement socialist politics though, was it? Ho Chi Minh did great things in his efforts against the US, France and China, but he was by no means a communist nor was he interested in working-class politics. Scoff at that or not - it's the truth.

He's admirable but if you had a party centered around his beliefs here at the current moment then hell no there is no way any self-described leftist would even think of supporting someone like that.

"It was patriotism, not communism, that inspired me to do the things I did." - Ho Chi Minh

But why would a peasant army form in the UK for the purpose of national liberation, unification and the throwing off of the yoke of French and then American Imperialism at the current moment anyway?

[Flying Purple People Eater]

But why would a peasant army form in the UK for the purpose of national liberation, unification and the throwing off of the yoke of French and then American Imperialism at the current moment anyway?

I was talking about the Vietcong's economic policies. I don't know where you get the United Kingdoms from either.

[Astarte]

I was talking about the Vietcong's economic policies. I don't know where you get the United Kingdoms from either.

Your organization says CPB (ML) - this doesn't refer to the Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)? I assumed the "here and now" you were talking about was the UK based on that, but I guess not. At any rate, I am not sure how you can divorce the economic policies of the Vietcong from the class conditions of their society as predominantly peasant in class with the immediate issue of national liberation from Western imperialism and transfer those conditions and primarily feasible goals onto the course of action communists would set in their platform in an advanced capitalist/imperialist country - assuming that describes the "here" you speak of.

[StringsofG]

Your organization says CPB (ML) - this doesn't refer to the Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)? I assumed the "here and now" you were talking about was the UK based on that, but I guess not. At any rate, I am not sure how you can divorce the economic policies of the Vietcong from the class conditions of their society as predominantly peasant in class with the immediate issue of national liberation from Western imperialism and transfer those conditions and primarily feasible goals onto the course of action communists would set in their platform in an advanced capitalist/imperialist country - assuming that describes the "here" you speak of.


Ahh, my point exactly.... The conditions of revolution and policy are to be determined by pomp and circumstance. Just as the peasants were the predominate class in Vietnam, the middle class is the predominate force in the west. We must meet each situation as an I dependent crises. That is one thin I believe Ho Chi Minh realized. What worked elsewhere was not the best path for his specific locale.

The thing that is more important than the policies that he espoused is the sheer determination he displayed. How many leaders have stood against nearly every major power and said ; "you may kill ten of us for every one we kill of you; and you will still tire of fighting before we do." (And met the promise) these are things that should be more highlighted in the left! Just like Stalin's "Not one step back" policy. Determination wins the revolution.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Your organization says CPB (ML) - this doesn't refer to the Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist)? I assumed the "here and now" you were talking about was the UK based on that, but I guess not.

Ah, yeah - sorry about that :lol:.The CPB(ML) thing is a joke. I hope the admins would be quick to ban anyone who associates with nutters like them.


At any rate, I am not sure how you can divorce the economic policies of the Vietcong from the class conditions of their society as predominantly peasant in class with the immediate issue of national liberation from Western imperialism and transfer those conditions and primarily feasible goals onto the course of action communists would set in their platform in an advanced capitalist/imperialist country - assuming that describes the "here" you speak of.

This is true. However I disagree if you think that the Vietcong were the only conduit for such immediate issues outlined. Most of South-East Asia had very strong communist currents during the Chinese revolution. It was only after each was serially destroyed that the nationalist parties (Vietcong, Thai Communist Party, Lao PRP) rose to prominence.

[Questionable]

"It was patriotism, not communism, that inspired me to do the things I did." - Ho Chi Minh

You are either ignorant or deceitful if you are using this quote as proof that Ho Chi Minh was not a Marxist. His quote is in reference to his initially joining the French Communist Party. Here it is in its proper context:


At first, patriotism, not yet communism, led me to have confidence in Lenin, in the Third International. Step by step, along the struggle, by studying Marxism-Leninism parallel with participation in practical activities, I gradually came upon the fact that only socialism and communism can liberate the oppressed nations and the working people throughout the world from slavery.

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/ho-chi-minh/works/1960/04/x01.htm

[Astarte]

Most of South-East Asia had very strong communist currents during the Chinese revolution. It was only after each was serially destroyed that the nationalist parties (Vietcong, Thai Communist Party, Lao PRP) rose to prominence.

The thing is if they were so strong and actually were conducive currents and vehicles of feasible historical change which best represented the actual class realities of Vietnam under French and then American Imperialist oppression then they would have been the vanguard of the revolution - rather they were not and the Vietcong was. I don't understand this "purism" of defaming Ho Chi Minh as "not a Marxist - durdurdur - just a bourgie nationalist...!" Its frankly ridiculous.