MB supporters in egypt toss police truck of highway

[Sasha]

so yeah, one set of reactionaries is butchering another but at least there is this for some mindless entertainment; http://www.zie.nl/video/egypte/Aanhanger-Mursi-gooien-politiewagen-van-viaduct/m1mz4tvfda29

:blink:

[Per Levy]

The health ministry says 149 people have been killed. But the Muslim Brotherhood, which backed the protests, says at least 2,000 have died.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23700663

the last i've read was that at leat 900 are injured, probally way more.

[Comrade Chernov]

CNN says the toll is up to nearly 280 dead - 235 protestors, 43 police.

[khad]

CNN says the toll is up to nearly 280 dead - 235 protestors, 43 police.
Only an idiot would belive that the Muslim Brothers were all peacefully gathered. Those fools hoard weapons like rats hoard cheese. It's in their nature.

[Hit The North]

Only an idiot would belive that the Muslim Brothers were all peacefully gathered. Those fools hoard weapons like rats hoard cheese. It's in their nature.

This appalling claim requires evidence.

Not that anyone should be surprised that a stalinist like you would be cheer-leading the murder of innocent demonstrators by a military machine.

[TheEmancipator]

Can't blame the military regime for protecting its interest over that of the MBs, and i take the MBs claims of peaceful demonstration very lightly.

What a waste of human life, consumed by reactionary demagoguery.

[khad]

This appalling claim requires evidence.

Not that anyone should be surprised that a stalinist would be cheer-leading the murder of innocent demonstrators by a military machine.
Since when have "peaceful" and "unarmed" protesters killed dozens of security forces? In the history of revolts, security forces rarely suffer serious casualties when equipped with armor and riot gear.

The casualty exchange here suggests that it was an actual battle.

[Hit The North]

Since when has it been our job to condemn people for defending themselves against the army and the pigs?

[Hit The North]

Can't blame the military regime for protecting its interest over that of the MBs, and i take the MBs claims of peaceful demonstration very lightly.

What a waste of human life, consumed by reactionary demagoguery.

What a disgraceful position from someone who calls themselves a Marxist-humanist.

What a disgusting apologist for state oppression you are!

[khad]

Since when has it been our job to condemn people for defending themselves against the army and the pigs?
Since when has it been our job to defend fundamentalists who kidnap and murder people?
http://www.examiner.com/article/muslim-brotherhood-militants-egypt-appear-to-have-obtained-american-weapons


Muslim Brotherhood militants are today stepping up their attacks (http://www.examiner.com/topic/attacks) on Egyptian citizens in several cities in Egypt (http://www.examiner.com/topic/egypt). Mohamed Y. Saad Zaghloul (https://www.facebook.com/moe.super) has informed this reporter tonight of further attacks by Muslim Brotherhood (MB) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood) militants and that he believes they are using M-16 rifles and 223 ammunition that appear to have come from the United States. Zaghloul is is the President of the DFP Youth Organization for the Democratic Front Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Front_Party), a party that is part of a coalition of 22 secular parties involved in the political process in Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_for_Salvation_of_the_Revolution).

Zaghloul reported many casualties from the fighting, and said citizens and Egyptian army personnel are “falling like flies.” He also said, “in my city 43 people (have) fallen to MB gun fire and 16 hostages were taken to show their resolve executed one of the hostages in a mosque and threw his body out of the mosque. The army is being halted by the Obama administration. The residents around their sit in in Cairo are terrified as more than 200 of them have fallen during clashes there.”

Additionally, a news site called cia-news.com reported the heavy gun fire against the Egyptian army by what it called the “Islamic Brotherhood.” That same story also reports that “Hamas (is) involve(d) more and more in the fighting.”

“The official US story puts the MB are victims of a military coup and are being attacked by a vicious military machine,” Zaghloul said, “even though they have received reports of heavy machine gun (fire), missiles, and heavy weaponry use, and reports confirming the presence of these anti-armor and anti personnel weapons” being used by MB forces.

Some of the weapons used by the MB forces appear to have come from the United States, including M-16 rifles and 223 ammunition. Zaghloul said, “what is shocking to me is finding some of MB operatives using US made M16 rifles firing 223 a caliber not native to the entire region. It seems some of the weapons given to the MB in Syria have found their way to the MB in Egypt. I have seen 223 casings in Alexandria and here it is always 7.62 for Egyptian AKs and I have seen them using AR 15 type weapons in their hands. They are being transported by the US to MBs in Syria with the 223 or 556 ammo (which is not) produced or sold in Syria nor Egypt.”No love lost for the pro-Israeli army, but be realistic about who we're talking about.

[Hit The North]

Are you honestly using the propaganda from a right-wing shit rag like The Examiner for your evidence?

How about this from the AlJazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/08/20138141715620312.html) which details how the state police are using masked provocateurs, snipers and helicopters?

[danyboy27]

Are you honestly using the propaganda from a right-wing shit rag like The Examiner for your evidence?

How about this from the AlJazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/08/20138141715620312.html) which details how the state police are using masked provocateurs, snipers and helicopters?

One dosnt exclude the other you know.

[danyboy27]

And beside, MB folks already shot cops when Morsi was deposed by the army a fews month ago. i saw a video where there was that cop, just walking toward a mb protest and he just dropped dead after some shot where fired. they carried his body to the hospital in moppet.

[khad]

Are you honestly using the propaganda from a right-wing shit rag like The Examiner for your evidence?

How about this from the AlJazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/08/20138141715620312.html) which details how the state police are using masked provocateurs, snipers and helicopters?
So my source is right wing when you're quoting the state media of one of the most reactionary monarchist societies on the face of the planet?

[Tim Cornelis]

Armed Muslim Brotherhood supporter:

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/mbwap534.jpg

[danyboy27]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDa79lhBUE4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aiP-vu677A

[Paul Pott]

So when do we get to hear the "they took up arms in defense after a huge massacre (240)!" line?

That flew in Syria didn't it?

[danyboy27]

So when do we get to hear the "they took up arms in defense after a huge massacre (240)!" line?

That flew in Syria didn't it?

well, pro morsi folks have been using firearm against protester and the police way before that massacre.

[Paul Pott]

Armored vehicles crushed the demonstrators with flamethrowers and/or white phosphorous:

http://www.counterpunch.org/wp-content/dropzone/2013/08/Nahda.jpg

[Ann Egg]

Since when has it been our job to condemn people for defending themselves against the army and the pigs?
Since 'we' don't defend reactionary theocrats that blame rape on women, lynch Copts and kill homosexuals. They attacked 14 churches today alone.

[Hit The North]

So my source is right wing when you're quoting the state media of one of the most reactionary monarchist societies on the face of the planet?

Get you facts right, it is not state owned media. Meanwhile, you are happy to legitimse a "news" agency that claims that Obama is sending military aid to the MB and sending arms to the "global jihad stronghold in Syria (http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-shipping-weapons-to-global-jihad-stronghold-syria)." When everyone knows that the Obama regime has soft-pedalled the recent military coup in Egypt so it can continue to fund the military to the tune of $1.1 billion.

By siding with the Egyptian military you are siding with US imperialism.

This is a new low even for you.

[Paul Pott]

Yes, Al-Jazeera is the state owned media outlet of Qatar. The west is quite generous to their proxy forces in Syria, just as they are to the Egyptian military.

[danyboy27]

Get you facts right, it is not state owned media. Meanwhile, you are happy to legitimse a "news" agency that claims that Obama is sending military aid to the MB and sending arms to the "global jihad stronghold in Syria (http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-shipping-weapons-to-global-jihad-stronghold-syria)." When everyone knows that the Obama regime has soft-pedalled the recent military coup in Egypt so it can continue to fund the military to the tune of $1.1 billion.

By siding with the Egyptian military you are siding with US imperialism.

This is a new low even for you.

Just beccause Khad dosnt support the Muslim brotherhood dosnt mean he side with the the egyptian governement you know.

[khad]

Get you facts right, it is not state owned media. Meanwhile, you are happy to legitimse a "news" agency that claims that Obama is sending military aid to the MB and sending arms to the "global jihad stronghold in Syria (http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-shipping-weapons-to-global-jihad-stronghold-syria)." When everyone knows that the Obama regime has soft-pedalled the recent military coup in Egypt so it can continue to fund the military to the tune of $1.1 billion.

By siding with the Egyptian military you are siding with US imperialism.

This is a new low even for you.
It absolutely is Qatari state media. Al-Jazeera's bias and its loss of credibility in the Muslim world has been well documented on places like the Angry Arab blogspot.

And it's funny you mention mention global jihad stronghold, since a global jihad stronghold was precisely what Morsi himself wanted to turn Syria into.


(AP) On Saturday, Morsi attended a rally by hard-line clerics who have called for jihad and spoke before a cheering crowd at a Cairo stadium, mainly Islamists. Waving a flag of Egypt and the Syrian opposition, he ripped into the Syrian regime, announced Egypt was cutting ties with Damascus and denounced Lebanon’s Shiite Hezbollah guerrillas for fighting alongside Assad’s forces.

Clerics at the rally urged Morsi to back their calls for jihad to support rebels. Morsi did not address their calls and did not mention jihad. But his appearance was seen as in implicit backing of the clerics’ message. It came after a senior presidential aide last week said that while Egypt was not encouraging citizens to travel to Syria to help rebels, they were free to do so and the state would take no action against them.

Khalil el-Anani, an Egyptian expert on Islamist groups, called the move “Morsi’s endorsement of jihad in Syria” and warned it was “a strategic mistake that will create a new Afghanistan in the Middle East.”The brotherhood thinks nothing of sacrificing its disposable youth. And mind you, this rally was at the time when the US was funding the Muslim brotherhood-led state in Egypt.

Imperialism is in the region is much more cynical than you apparently believe. The United States really doesn't give a shit who's in power. They are softpedaling any criticism of the new military regime, just like how they softpedaled any condemnation of Morsi's regime (which, btw, tortured more people in a year than in a decade under his predecessor). No matter what government comes to power, the economic structures of the region will likely ensure that Egypt will remain solidly in the American sphere of influence.

The point is, however, the Muslim brothers have NEVER been peaceful and have always stockpiled arms to use on their political opponents whenever things don't go their way. Do we so conveniently forget how the Muslim brotherhood's snipers went to work on the civilians of Cairo the day after Morsi was arrested?

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2013/07/06/Cairo-residents-Heavily-armed-Islamists-attacked-us-.html


Residents say the attack began just minutes after the Brotherhood’s supreme guide, Mohammed Badie, gave a fiery speech to Mursi supporters camped out in Cairo’s Nasr City, which was broadcast live on television.

“The attack came minutes after Badie’s speech. They treated us like infidels. They were chanting ‘Allahu akbar’ (God is greatest) as they were shooting us,” said Ahmed Fattouh.

On the door of one shop hung a sign announcing that the owner, 26-year-old Abdallah Sayyed Abdelazim, had been killed.

Parts of Manial were a ghost town on Saturday, with businesses shuttered and residents devastated by the night’s violence.

“The clashes started at 7:30 pm and continued until three in the morning. Their ammunition just didn’t run out. They are trying to terrorize us and take over the country,” said Khaled Tawfik.

Shopkeeper Mohammed Fekry, 29, who was wounded by birdshot said at least 10 people were killed and dozens injured.

“We have 10 people dead in this area, including six people who died with single bullets in the head. There were snipers on the roof of the Salaheddine mosque,” Fekry said.

[Paul Pott]

The brotherhood thinks nothing of sacrificing its disposable youth.

I've heard this kind of statement all over the internet.

While true, you could say the same of any movement that calls a protest knowing there will be a crackdown.

[khad]

I've heard this kind of statement all over the internet.

While true, you could say the same of any movement that calls a protest knowing there will be a crackdown.
I was referring to their desire to send thousands, and even tens of thousands of Egyptians to the Syrian meatgrinder.

Talk about a fucking waste.

[danyboy27]

The morsi governement also jailed a Copt 1 years for ''insulting islam'' and a blogger for 6 month beccause he badmouthed Morsi.

[TheEmancipator]

What a disgraceful position from someone who calls themselves a Marxist-humanist.

What a disgusting apologist for state oppression you are!

Do you know what Marxist-Humanism is? It has nothing to do with liberal humanism, with emphasis on individuals. And it's therefore not pacifist.

I am opposed to state oppression, hence why even the oppressive military regime is more favourable than an Islamist constitution is the mould of Iran's.

[cyu]

Under what circumstances does someone deserve to die?

If he is a member of a certain political party?

If he has a weapon?

If he is associated with a certain organization?

If he has a certain job?

If he follows a particular religion?

[Bronco]

Find it strange how people are rushing to condemn a few Brotherhood wielding weapons or some Churches being burned and aren't particularly bothered about security forces mowing down hundreds in a state sponsored massacre

[Bronco]

Since 'we' don't defend reactionary theocrats that blame rape on women, lynch Copts and kill homosexuals. They attacked 14 churches today alone.

Because the army's attitudes to women (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/military-clears-army-doctor-over-virginity-test-on-cairo-protesters-7561665.html) is so much better..

[Sasha]

They are all assholes, condemn the killing don't look for a side to cheerlead.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

They are all assholes, condemn the killing don't look for a side to cheerlead.

This.

Whoever prevails, if anyone does, in this continued conflict between the army and morsi's supporters, there will be few winners among the Egyptian working class and anyone that either group has a problem with (women, homosexuals etc).

[khad]

Find it strange how people are rushing to condemn a few Brotherhood wielding weapons or some Churches being burned and aren't particularly bothered about security forces mowing down hundreds in a state sponsored massacre
We're only condemning it because of the bullshit narrative that the Muslim Brotherhood has been trying to graft onto the recent events.

Lo and behold, when the crackdown comes, you get a 6:1 casualty ratio between the security forces and "protesters." There are WW2 battles with more lopsided kill exchanges.

There's little point to arguing that the SCAF is always ready and willing to do violence--that's what they do by definition. What there is a point to arguing is that the Muslim Brotherhood aren't the innocent Ghandi-like pacifists that they pretend to be. Make no mistake, this is a civil war, and the Brothers have been stockpiling arms in preparation for this. There's a reason why the Egyptian left, many of whom are no fans of the SCAF, doesn't give a shit about the Ikhwan.

[Le Socialiste]

Make no mistake, this is a civil war

No, it isn't. The last several weeks hardly qualify as such. Call it a crackdown, call it a conflict between two competing camps' interests, but civil war? No.

[khad]

No, it isn't. The last several weeks hardly qualify as such. Call it a crackdown, call it a conflict between two competing camps' interests, but civil war? No.
Yeah, keep deluding yourself.

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/13/141303842/libyan-guns-pour-into-egypt-sinai-residents-arm-themselves
http://www.voanews.com/content/libyan-arms-stockpiles-in-egypt-causing-concern/1615973.html

Egypt's been a premier weapons smuggling destination ever since the fall of Libya. 14.5mm HMGs and AT weapons aren't around for purposes of civil protest.

[TheEmancipator]

They are all assholes, condemn the killing don't look for a side to cheerlead.

Yes, I think we've established that, but we still need to look at things rationally, and realise that if the killing is to stop, then the lesser of two evils that could solve this problem is the military regime, provided it proposes democratic elections in the foreseeable future.

People here forget the French Revolution went through numerous twist and turns, ultimately bringing back the monarchy. The Egyptian revolution is the same. Our eurocentric, or what the MLs accuse me of : "bourgeois morality", perspective on these "barbarians" is totally unjustified. We were guilty of the same crimes to reach our "advanced" stage today.

[Hit The North]

Lo and behold, when the crackdown comes, you get a 6:1 casualty ratio between the security forces and "protesters." There are WW2 battles with more lopsided kill exchanges.


So what does the kill ratio have to be before you condemn the Egyptian state's murder of its political opponents?

[Sasha]

Since he is still a staunch Assad cheerleader I don't even want to know...
Khad gets off on dead workers as long as they are nomaly framed as Sunni religious.

[khad]

Since he is still a staunch Assad cheerleader I don't even want to know...
Khad gets off on dead workers as long as they are nomaly framed as Sunni religious.
Just like you get off on dead postal workers by spewing bullcrap about takfiri moderates and "liberation islam"

http://www.revleft.com/vb/muslim-brotherhoods-war-t174291/index.html

You started this thread to gloat about street violence. What's the matter? Losing your edge?

[Ann Egg]

Armored vehicles crushed the demonstrators with flamethrowers and/or white phosphorous:

http://www.counterpunch.org/wp-content/dropzone/2013/08/Nahda.jpg
That looks like a tear gas cylinder blew up in that tent they were in. Flamethrowers, white phosphorus, :laugh:

[Ann Egg]

They are all assholes, condemn the killing don't look for a side to cheerlead.
Nobody is cheerleading anyone.


So what does the kill ratio have to be before you condemn the Egyptian state's murder of its political opponents?
You want leftists to condemn the elimination of our political opponents? The Egyptian military is doing the Egyptian left a favor and I say let them keep at it. That Brotherhood has been assassinating and murdering socialists and communists for more than half a century, let them have a taste of their own medicine.

[Sasha]

You want leftists to condemn the elimination of our political opponents? The Egyptian military is doing the Egyptian left a favor and I say let them keep at it. That Brotherhood has been assassinating and murdering socialists and communists for more than half a century, let them have a taste of their own medicine.


yeah, because the move towards underground armed insurrection in Algeria by the FIS (and later the GIA) and the continued martial law has been so beneficial to the revolutionary left there.... :rolleyes:

religious strife dominated civilwar, its really the birthplace of communism

[Tim Cornelis]

Armed Muslim Brotherhood supporters:

http://www.telegraaf.nl/incoming/article21812257.ece/BINARY/i/leden+moslimbroederschap+afp.JPG



religious strife dominated civilwar, its really the birthplace of communism

Glenn Beck:

gzLgXsh5MvI

[cyu]

I would rather support civil war than condone enslavement, regardless of who is being enslaved.

[Hit The North]

You want leftists to condemn the elimination of our political opponents? The Egyptian military is doing the Egyptian left a favor and I say let them keep at it. That Brotherhood has been assassinating and murdering socialists and communists for more than half a century, let them have a taste of their own medicine.

I expect Marxists to condemn the slaughter of workers by state military. The fact these workers have reactionary ideas doesn't make them not workers. And if you think the Egyptian army is the friend of the Egyptian workers then you are deluded. Meanwhile it has been the military-backed dictators that have slaughtered and imprisoned socialists and communists - the very people who hold power in Egypt today.

The reality is that the old regime is back in power, more naked than ever, and those people in Egypt who cheered on the military coup against Morsi will rue the day that they retreated on their own revolutionary aims.

Already the military is moving against the workers. (http://menasolidaritynetwork.com/2013/08/12/egypt-appeal-for-solidarity-after-steel-workers-arrested-by-army/) Do you think it will end there?

Opposition to military rule (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art/34141/Statement+from+the+Egyptian+Revolutionary+Socialis ts+on+the+massacre+in+Cairo) is the only position the revolutionary left should take in Egypt as this is the only way of pushing the political revolution forward.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

People here forget the French Revolution went through numerous twist and turns, ultimately bringing back the monarchy. The Egyptian revolution is the same. Our eurocentric, or what the MLs accuse me of : "bourgeois morality", perspective on these "barbarians" is totally unjustified. We were guilty of the same crimes to reach our "advanced" stage today.

The fuck has this got to do with jack shit? Who is 'we'? It's 'eurocentric' now to be against the Egyptian military's goons? What are you nuts? Way to bastardise a meaningful term. 'Eurocentric' is things like taking out Pre-Spanish mesoamerican history from the history books, focusing on Europe, European social concepts, etc. It is not 'these people are outside Europe so if you criticise them then you're eurocentric'. That's fucking right-wing orientalist anti-intellectualism.

I mean no lost sleep over the revolting islamist dogs but shit I think it's far more eurocentric to claim that 'the Egyptian people (already a silly grouping fallacy) do not have a society that is 'modern enough' to be attacked from a leftist political perspective. That's belittling, insulting and an emotional appeal cloaked in manner-of-fact speaking so that anyone who disagrees with you can be made out to look morally obtuse.

[Bronco]

Yes, I think we've established that, but we still need to look at things rationally, and realise that if the killing is to stop, then the lesser of two evils that could solve this problem is the military regime, provided it proposes democratic elections in the foreseeable future.

People here forget the French Revolution went through numerous twist and turns, ultimately bringing back the monarchy. The Egyptian revolution is the same. Our eurocentric, or what the MLs accuse me of : "bourgeois morality", perspective on these "barbarians" is totally unjustified. We were guilty of the same crimes to reach our "advanced" stage today.

Like they did a couple of years ago you mean? When they ousted Mubarak, took control, and tabled the 'democratic elections' that saw Morsi voted into power?

Cos that doesn't seem to have worked out very well

[Halert]

As many have said we should oppose both the muslim brotherhood and military, because they are both reactionary forces.

I think the military had this planed out for a while they give the mb power which they use to oppress christians, athiest or other non muslims and then after the other have of the population gets angry they step in to "save" them.

They can retake their power and make it look like they stand for the oppressed.
Yesterday i heard in on the news "The military backs the protesters" that is bullshit ofc they only back their own interest.

[The Douche]

When will the mass conversion of Trotskyists to militant Sunni islam occur?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

The reality is that the old regime is back in power, more naked than ever, and those people in Egypt who cheered on the military coup against Morsi will rue the day that they retreated on their own revolutionary aims.


do you think morsi's regime was any better though, really? revolutions are processes, they don't amount to a regime re-shuffle of which the masses have to be happy with. they may well have 'rued' the day if morsi was left to his own devices, given the way it was going.

obviously, any revolutionary character in this conflict doesn't begin or end with the army or the muslim brotherhood, as neither of these groups truly represent the working class.

but, to take it rationally, people need to remember who the muslim brotherhood really are (look back a few decades).

they are out with their guns too - they aren't just 'protestors', like the protestors that wanted morsi out were. do people support the taliban in pakistan against the ruling regime, because they are against the ruling regime?

[TheEmancipator]

The fuck has this got to do with jack shit? Who is 'we'? It's 'eurocentric' now to be against the Egyptian military's goons? What are you nuts? Way to bastardise a meaningful term. 'Eurocentric' is things like taking out Pre-Spanish mesoamerican history from the history books, focusing on Europe, European social concepts, etc. It is not 'these people are outside Europe so if you criticise them then you're eurocentric'. That's fucking right-wing orientalist anti-intellectualism.

I mean no lost sleep over the revolting islamist dogs but shit I think it's far more eurocentric to claim that 'the Egyptian people (already a silly grouping fallacy) do not have a society that is 'modern enough' to be attacked from a leftist political perspective. That's belittling, insulting and an emotional appeal cloaked in manner-of-fact speaking so that anyone who disagrees with you can be made out to look morally obtuse.


It's not a question of being "modern enough", its a question of recognising this is not the time for proletarian class consciousness, and like the Popular Fronts in Europe did in the 1930s (unsuccessfully), stopping agents of reactionary ideology from getting their hands on too much power for any proleteriat in the Middle East.

[cyu]

If I do not support American Republicans, which ones deserve to die?

If I do not support American Democrats, which ones deserve to die?

If I do not support fascists or Stalinists, which ones deserve to die?

If fascists and American Democrats are currently killing eachother through daily raids or car bombs, should I be happy about it? Should I try to intentionally foment more division and violence between them?

[Hit The North]

do you think morsi's regime was any better though, really?


Better only in terms of being democratically elected. This, after all, was the stated aim of the social movement against Mubarak. The election of Morsi was a step back but the only other alternative was two steps back: the election was between Morsi and Shafik, former PM under Mubarak and the army's preferred candidate.

Now we have seen where two steps back gets us.

The idea that the army will be in a hurry to reinstall free elections is more than hopeful. Who now in Egypt can have any faith in elections anyway?

And it's not like there is any organised political alternative to the Freedom and Justice Party, except the Islamic Bloc dominated by the salafist Al-Nour Party which is even more reactionary than the MB. The secular left is tiny.

Those who cheered the military's overthrow of Morsi have shot themselves in the foot. All that energy, effort and will to overthrow Mubarak has been for nothing unless they can loosen the grip that the generals currently have over the political life of Egypt.

[Le Socialiste]

Yeah, keep deluding yourself.

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/13/141303842/libyan-guns-pour-into-egypt-sinai-residents-arm-themselves
http://www.voanews.com/content/libyan-arms-stockpiles-in-egypt-causing-concern/1615973.html

Egypt's been a premier weapons smuggling destination ever since the fall of Libya. 14.5mm HMGs and AT weapons aren't around for purposes of civil protest.

So, we're equating evidence of weapons smuggling with civil war? If that's the case:

Between 2006 and 2012, 65,000 illegal weapons attempting to enter the U.S. have been seized by the Canadian Border Services Agency (http://www.havocscope.com/seizures-of-guns-entering-canada-from-the-us/) - though 'security experts' believe the majority pass through "with ease."

There are also believed to be 45 to 80 million weapons circulating throughout Central America (http://www.havocscope.com/weapons-circulating-in-central-america/), many of which are held by various drug cartels.

And the list goes on.

Let's not blow this out of proportion, as some here are prone to do. What's occurring in Egypt doesn't yet qualify as a civil war. Does the possibility of escalation exist? Surely. Is the country currently engulfed in such a conflict, though? No, and the presence of weapons smuggled into the country doesn't make it so either (though they certainly don't help).

It is also misleading to categorize each and every supporter of the Brotherhood in the streets as a 'combatant', for many reasons. It is clear the Muslim Brotherhood possesses weapons, as well as people willing to wield them (the presence of snipers belonging to the MB is evidence of that and shouldn't be ignored). Do they make up the majority? No, clearly. Do they enjoy the support of those who don't possess arms? It's probable. At the same time, we do not cheer every time the military brutally clears out the camps of the Brotherhood, massacring those inside. Do we look on as the military raids field hospitals (http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/14/world/meast/egypt-protests), terrorizing doctors and forcing out medical personnel at gunpoint while the dead and dying are left behind?

The fact that some here have been cheering on the military is mind-blowing. At the same time we need to recognize the role of the Brotherhood as a thoroughly reactionary body that, for the past year, committed itself fully to the neoliberal project of austerity. The uprising that ultimately forced the military's hand demonstrated the will and power of millions; however the subsequent actions of the military similarly demonstrate the growing confidence of those remnants constituting the old regime.

This "civil war" narrative, whether intentionally or not, is in line with the arguments put to use by the military as political cover for its actions. As an earlier poster said, this has set us back not one step, but several. We must look to those forces on the revolutionary left that rightly declare independence from both the military and the remnants of the old regime on the one hand, and the Brotherhood on the other - while simultaneously condemning the brutality of the former in its drive to drown the opposition in its own blood.

[Paul Pott]

The Muslim Brotherhood's supporters stormed police stations, killing and burning cops and in one place capturing and then cutting the throats of the commanders. They also killed police with RPGs and assault weapons. Also, they pretty much carried out a full scale anti-Christian pogrom.

Elsewhere, unarmed Muslim Brotherhood demonstrators were massacred by the state's forces, including women and children.

Who is worse, really, someone who burns churches and kills cops (cough, cough) or someone who fires into unarmed crowds full of women and children?

Why would we support the massacre of Egyptian workers who oppose the coup, and may not even be all islamists, since most of the people who voted for Morsi in 2012 did so to keep Mubarak's yes man out of power and to curb the military's influence? Because the Brotherhood's fanatics carried out some atrocities?

[Turinbaar]

both sides of the conflict have allowed themselves to be used by the US in one way or another, and for a while Morsi depended on the army for protection, and all of their interests were aligned.

This current instability is itself the maintenance of the greater stability of the military basis of the Egyptian state. The Brotherhood is the perfect enemy for the army to have; so long as they are the major organized force on the streets and for a time in the state houses, there is no chance for a reform or revolutionary movement to develop.

It would be great if Glenn Beck's theory about Marxism sprouting up amidst all of this ended up being true, but I think the current dynamic is aimed precisely against this outcome.

[The Douche]

The Muslim Brotherhood's supporters stormed police stations, killing and burning cops and in one place capturing and then cutting the throats of the commanders. They also killed police with RPGs and assault weapons. Also, they pretty much carried out a full scale anti-Christian pogrom.

Elsewhere, unarmed Muslim Brotherhood demonstrators were massacred by the state's forces, including women and children.

Who is worse, really, someone who burns churches and kills cops (cough, cough) or someone who fires into unarmed crowds full of women and children?

Why would we support the massacre of Egyptian workers who oppose the coup, and may not even be all islamists, since most of the people who voted for Morsi in 2012 did so to keep Mubarak's yes man out of power and to curb the military's influence? Because the Brotherhood's fanatics carried out some atrocities?

Hey asshole, want to clarify what you mean here? Are you insinuating that we as communist have some common ground with the MB because we (you) would like to see dead cops and burning churches?

[Art Vandelay]

Who is worse, really, someone who burns churches and kills cops (cough, cough) or someone who fires into unarmed crowds full of women and children?

I really hope you're not seriously asking this question.

[The Douche]

I really hope you're not seriously asking this question.

But in the first part of his post he uses the term "pogrom", which you normally wouldn't use if you wanted to cast the individuals in a positive light. I dunno if he's just trolling or what...


Seems like, in typically stalinist fashion, he can't pick which pack of blood-thirsty maniacs he likes more.

[Paul Pott]

Yo fuckface, I was talking about you.

That's your thing isn't it, insurrection against the pigs, make total destroy? And that's about all anarchists did in Spain, burn churches and run from battle.

Maybe I can't pick because they're all assholes.

[Sasha]

oi, no calling other users names, lets keep it civil here, verbal warning, next person will get an infraction

[The Douche]

Yo fuckface, I was talking about you.

That's your thing isn't it, insurrection against the pigs, make total destroy? And that's about all anarchists did in Spain, burn churches and run from battle.

Maybe I can't pick because they're all assholes.

My family are Egyptian copts, asshole.

[Sasha]

i understand the temperament in this case but that goes for you too, no calling names...

[danyboy27]

Yo fuckface, I was talking about you.

That's your thing isn't it, insurrection against the pigs, make total destroy? And that's about all anarchists did in Spain, burn churches and run from battle.

Maybe I can't pick because they're all assholes.

Except the Spanish who burned down churches didnt do it beccause of some wack muslim fundamentalism inferiority complex and attacked priests, not the christians has a group.

Also, the spanish anarchists attacked the church beccause it was a powerful institution of oppression, the copt church is far from being the dominant religous force in egypt.

a realistic parallel would be to compare that with the way the right wing extremist did with the jewish people in the 30s

[Sasha]

statement from tahrir-ICN:


The events of the past couple of days are the latest step in a sequence of events by which the military can consolidate its hold on power, aim towards the death of the revolution and a return to a military/police state.
The authoritarian regime of the Muslim Brotherhood had to go. But what has replaced it is the true face of the military in Egypt – no less authoritarian, no less fascist and for sure more difficult to depose.
The massacre carried out by the army against pro-Morsi supporters in Nadha Square and Raba’a has left around 500 killed and up to 3000 injured (Ministry of Health figures- the reality is likely much higher). It was a pre-orchestrated act of state terrorism. It’s aim is to divide the people and push the Muslim Brotherhood to create more militia’s to revenge and protect themselves. This in turn will enable the army to label all Islamists as terrorists and produce an “internal enemy” in the country which will allow the army to keep the military regime in an ongoing state of emergency.
They go after the Muslim Brotherhood today, but they will come after anyone who dares to criticize them tomorrow. Already the army has declared a state of emergency for one month, giving the police and military exceptional powers, and a curfew has been declared in many provinces for the same amount of time from 7pm to 6am. This gives the army a free hand to crack down on dissent. It is a return to the days before the revolution, where emergency law had been in place since 1967 and it provided the framework for wide-spread repression and denial of freedoms.
The character of the new regime is clear. Just a few days ago 18 new governors were appointed, the majority of which hail from the ranks of the army/police or even remnants of the Mubarak regime. There has also been an ongoing attack on workers who continue to strike for their rights (such as the recent army attack and arrest of steel workers on strike in Suez). The military regime is also hunting for revolutionary activists, journalists have been beaten and arrested, foreigners have been threatened against being witness to events. Both local and global media has told half truths and built narratives supportive of a political agenda. The counter-revolution is in full flow and it knows how to break the unity of the people in its effort to divide and conquer.
In the past two days there has been a rise in sectarian reprisals, with up to 50 churches and christian institutions attacked. The army and police were not seen protecting these buildings of the Christian community. It is in the interest of both army and the Muslim Brotherhood to stoke tensions and create fear and hatred in the people. They will fight for their control of the State as people’s blood fills the streets.
We condemn the massacres at Raba’a and Nadha Square, the attacks on workers, activists and journalists, the manipulation of the people by those who vie to power, and sectarian attacks. For the revolution to continue the people must remain united in their opposition to the abuses and tyranny of power, against whoever it is directed.
Down with the military and Al-Sissi!
Down with the remnants of the Mubarak regime and business elite!
Down with the State and all power to autonomous communities!
Long live the Egyptian revolution!


http://tahriricn.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/tahrir-icn-statement-on-events-in-egypt/

[Sir Comradical]

Lo and behold, when the crackdown comes, you get a 6:1 casualty ratio between the security forces and "protesters." There are WW2 battles with more lopsided kill exchanges.

Do you have evidence for this? Every news report I've seen so far provides a total with no breakdown.

[khad]

Do you have evidence for this? Every news report I've seen so far provides a total with no breakdown.
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/17/20061910-muslim-brotherhood-leaders-son-among-173-killed-in-egypt-clashes?lite

At least 57 police and security force members have been killed, along with 500 wounded, along with about 6-700 brotherhood protesters. It took a while for some of the casualty reports to come in, hence the the ratio as it stands is more in the order of 11:1. To give a point of reference, about a dozen PLA and police were killed in the suppression of the Tiananmen protests, so the point still stands.

In this TI footage, you can see entire squads of Brotherhood fighters strategically shielded by civilian rockthrowers:
PFRS0ZeLG2c

On top of the indiscriminate use of force by the SCAF, the MB's tactics are designed to create as many martyrs as possible. Do you really think an organization that is willing to send tens of thousands to martyrdom in Syria gives a shit about a few hundred dead at home?

[Hit The North]

In this TI footage, you can see entire squads of Brotherhood fighters strategically shielded by civilian rockthrowers:
PFRS0ZeLG2c



That's a generous and skewed assessment of the video you post which is extremely poor quality footage which the reporter admits cannot be verified more than once and where the persistent strap-line on the screen reads "Sky correspondent: No evidence of weapons being used by demonstrators."

In fact a quick google of new agencies shows that hardly any are reporting that the protesters are organised like an army except for the ultra right-wing and racist Front Page (http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/new-evidence-shows-muslim-brotherhood-killed-its-own-protesters/) website and the ultra loopy Egypt4Christ (http://www.egypt4christ.com/index.php/english/59-human-rights/7290-egypt-muslim-brotherhood-says-that-its-protests-are-peaceful-but-evidence-mounting-of-torture-and-weaponry-at-its-cairo-sit-ins)- so, once again, Khad is keeping fine company.

Not only is Khad having to draw his evidence from shady sources, but his highly selective evidence goes against the grain of most of the news coverage that shows unarmed civilians confronted by tear gas, armoured vehicles and live rounds.

Even if the unverified footage does show armed persons among the demonstrators the context is one in which the military deposed a democratically elected government, arrested its leaders and is now an d engaged in a murderous campaign to entrench its power over Egyptian society through the deadly destruction of its only real opposition. Who could blame the MB for defending itself by all means necessary?

As the statements emerging from the Egyptian left make clear, the issue isn't the violence which the MB uses to defend itself, the issue is the counter-revolution that is currently under way, the rolling back of any gains that were won through the original wave of the Arab Spring.

So I wonder what political purpose Khad thinks he is serving by trying to legitimate the Egyptian state's military assault on civilian protest camps, its murder and its mass arrests, by appealing to a mainly right-wing propagated myth of a militarised MB?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

what gains? morsi's islamism and support of the syrian war?

what about the right-wing myth that the MB are merely docile protestors? that is a myth too, even more so in fact, given that it contradicts the mainstream western narrative.

this is an exiting occasion for me: anti-authoritarian lefties essentially siding with social forces whose ideology both inspired and has been inspired by the likes of the taliban and al qaeda.

why is this the case? as far as i can see, this is because 'pro-morsi protestors' have been overturning police cars as a part of their 'protest'! so this is what it comes down to? an individual who wears a black mask and overturns a police car is our friend, despite whatever reactionary beliefs he/she may have? the age old criticism of the authoritarian left (which is a far one in many cases) and its tendency to take sides, now applies to the anti-authoritarians. both sides of this debate, ideologically speaking, are ridiculous. the rational position is to view the picture of this conflict as a whole, aside from dogmatic assertions.

how about we leave behind our ideological dogmas and view the situation for what it is, before we take sides as if its a football match.

[CyM]

Let us be clear, both the army and the brotherhood represent nothing but two faces of reaction. The brotherhood have unleashed a wave of sectarian violence to exact revenge for their fate, and are as much an enemy as the generals are.

They were overthrown by the revolutionary action of the masses in the largest demonstration in human history and refused to recognize or accept their defeat. Unfortunately, the masses were not organized enough to finish them off decisively and smash their nests.

So the brotherhood was not strong enough to return to power, and the masses were not strong enough to wipe them out.

It is in this deadlock that bonapartism becomes possible, balancing between the classes and rising above both.

The coup was not when the brothers were overthrown, the coup was this week. Nothing in the overthrow of the brotherhood guaranteed this outcome in advance.

[Hit The North]

what gains? morsi's islamism and support of the syrian war?


Maybe you didn't notice but Egypt had its first free election since 1952. If that wasn't a gain for the Egyptian people then why did they fight for it?


how about we leave behind our ideological dogmas and view the situation for what it is, before we take sides as if its a football match.


Indeed, and the real issue is how can the revolution be pushed forward. If you think it can be advanced through the reintroduction of military rule then you are wrong.

You don't have to have a shred of sympathy for Morsi's politics to recognise that the current military assault, headed by a puppet government of the generals, enhanced with emergency powers, is a counter revolution.

[danyboy27]

Maybe you didn't notice but Egypt had its first free election since 1952. If that wasn't a gain for the Egyptian people then why did they fight for it?

Sometimes peoples make bad choices, other time the limited choices avaliable lead to crazy peoples being elected.
If there is one thing bourgeois representative democracy proved with time, its that this popularity contests amongst the well off dosnt lead to the most suitable candidate to be elected.



Indeed, and the real issue is how can the revolution be pushed forward. If you think it can be advanced through the reintroduction of military rule then you are wrong.

Pushed foward by who? the MB is an organisation backed by several millionaires for fuck sake!
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-04-19/the-economic-vision-of-egypts-muslim-brotherhood-millionaires



You don't have to have a shred of sympathy for Morsi's politics to recognise that the current military assault, headed by a puppet government of the generals, enhanced with emergency powers, is a counter revolution.
what revolution? in what the MB would revolutionize egypt?

[Hit The North]

Sometimes peoples make bad choices, other time the limited choices avaliable lead to crazy peoples being elected.
If there is one thing bourgeois representative democracy proved with time, its that this popularity contests amongst the well off dosnt lead to the most suitable candidate to be elected.


Pushed foward by who? the MB is an organisation backed by several millionaires for fuck sake!
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-04-19/the-economic-vision-of-egypts-muslim-brotherhood-millionaires


what revolution? in what the MB would revolutionize egypt?

You do remember the 2011 movement to get rid of Mubarak don't you? That is the revolution I'm referring to. It was expressed within the parameters of a bourgeois representative democracy (one in which the MB outperformed every other political organisation) and despite its obvious limitations at least the Morsi government was elected. This aim - the installation of free elections was the dominant aim of the movement, anything to the left of this was marginal in the extreme.

Are you seriously arguing that the return to military dictatorship does not run counter to the aspirations of the social movement against Mubarak?

Also, contrary to what you or I think about the MB, do you really expect a country of predominantly Muslim people not to vote for Islamic parties? And if you find this too repugnant, does this mean that you would be happy for the suspension of all democratic process in Egypt for ever?

What do you think the army plans for the future of Egypt? Are you so naive to assume they are the saviours of Egyptian democracy?

[Sir Comradical]

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/17/20061910-muslim-brotherhood-leaders-son-among-173-killed-in-egypt-clashes?lite

At least 57 police and security force members have been killed, along with 500 wounded, along with about 6-700 brotherhood protesters. It took a while for some of the casualty reports to come in, hence the the ratio as it stands is more in the order of 11:1. To give a point of reference, about a dozen PLA and police were killed in the suppression of the Tiananmen protests, so the point still stands.

In this TI footage, you can see entire squads of Brotherhood fighters strategically shielded by civilian rockthrowers:
PFRS0ZeLG2c

On top of the indiscriminate use of force by the SCAF, the MB's tactics are designed to create as many martyrs as possible. Do you really think an organization that is willing to send tens of thousands to martyrdom in Syria gives a shit about a few hundred dead at home?

Ok because you initially said "you get a 6:1 casualty ratio between the security forces and "protesters"" which made it sound like 6 security force personnel were being killed for every protestor.

[danyboy27]

You do remember the 2011 movement to get rid of Mubarak don't you? That is the revolution I'm referring to. It was expressed within the parameters of a bourgeois representative democracy (one in which the MB outperformed every other political organisation) and despite its obvious limitations at least the Morsi government was elected. This aim - the installation of free elections was the dominant aim of the movement, anything to the left of this was marginal in the extreme.

Are you seriously arguing that the return to military dictatorship does not run counter to the aspirations of the social movement against Mubarak?

Also, contrary to what you or I think about the MB, do you really expect a country of predominantly Muslim people not to vote for Islamic parties? And if you find this too repugnant, does this mean that you would be happy for the suspension of all democratic process in Egypt for ever?

What do you think the army plans for the future of Egypt? Are you so naive to assume they are the saviours of Egyptian democracy?
The revolution died when the majority of egyptians accepted bourgeois democratie and went home when they believed the army deposed mubarak.
the only thing that made stuff moving again was Morsi reverse pedaling to Mubarak authoritarian method, wich sparked mass protests.

Sure the army exploited the situation for their own gain, but that nothing new, these guy have been doing that sort of shit for decades.

I dont know what the army plan for egypt but it would not be better with the MB either anyway.

that precisely why i think its dead wrong to take side in that crazy mess, beccause both sides are just nuts.

[cyu]

It's at times like this that I seek the calm reflection in the Holy Book of Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

Simon, Karl, Jared, and Brett are all friends of Josh, and they are all petty criminals. Jill is a friend of Josh; therefore, Jill is a petty criminal.

My opponent for office just received an endorsement from the Puppy Haters Association. Is that the sort of person you would want to vote for?

Citizens of Country X won more Nobel Prizes, gold medals, and literary awards than citizens of Country Y. Therefore, a citizen of Country X is superior to a citizen of Country Y.

All dogs have four legs; my cat has four legs. Therefore, my cat is a dog.

[La Guaneña]

9mqfBxsJyec

[Ann Egg]

You do remember the 2011 movement to get rid of Mubarak don't you? That is the revolution I'm referring to. It was expressed within the parameters of a bourgeois representative democracy (one in which the MB outperformed every other political organisation) and despite its obvious limitations at least the Morsi government was elected. This aim - the installation of free elections was the dominant aim of the movement, anything to the left of this was marginal in the extreme.

Are you seriously arguing that the return to military dictatorship does not run counter to the aspirations of the social movement against Mubarak?

Also, contrary to what you or I think about the MB, do you really expect a country of predominantly Muslim people not to vote for Islamic parties? And if you find this too repugnant, does this mean that you would be happy for the suspension of all democratic process in Egypt for ever?

What do you think the army plans for the future of Egypt? Are you so naive to assume they are the saviours of Egyptian democracy?
So you still haven't explained anything whatsoever. At first there was a neoliberal oligarchy of the military millionaires , with Mubarak as the figurehead. Then there was a neoliberal oligarchy of the military millionaires with Mohammad Tantwai as the figurehead. Then we had a neoliberal Islamist dictatorship with Morsi as the figurehead. Now we are back to the neoliberal oligarchy of the military millionaires, with Abdul Al-Sisi as the figurehead.

When did this revolution happen exactly? No changes in the mode of production occurred. No changes in economic policy occurred. No changes in foreign policy, either, Egypt was subservient to American and Israeli interests under Mubarak, Egypt was subservient to American and Israeli interests under Tantawi, Egypt was subservient to American and Israeli interests under Morsi, and Egypt is still subservient to American and Israeli interests under al-Sisi.

So I ask you again, what revolution? A cosmetic regime change doesn't constitute a revolution.

[Zealot]

N2RRgAvIqG0

[CyM]

So you still haven't explained anything whatsoever. At first there was a neoliberal oligarchy of the military millionaires , with Mubarak as the figurehead. Then there was a neoliberal oligarchy of the military millionaires with Mohammad Tantwai as the figurehead. Then we had a neoliberal Islamist dictatorship with Morsi as the figurehead. Now we are back to the neoliberal oligarchy of the military millionaires, with Abdul Al-Sisi as the figurehead.

When did this revolution happen exactly? No changes in the mode of production occurred. No changes in economic policy occurred. No changes in foreign policy, either, Egypt was subservient to American and Israeli interests under Mubarak, Egypt was subservient to American and Israeli interests under Tantawi, Egypt was subservient to American and Israeli interests under Morsi, and Egypt is still subservient to American and Israeli interests under al-Sisi.

So I ask you again, what revolution? A cosmetic regime change doesn't constitute a revolution.
This is a rather crude definition of revolution that would invalidate most revolutions in human history. The February revolution in Russia overthrew an emperor only to immediately replace him with a Prince. Hence, no February revolution?

A revolution guarantees neither socialism nor victory. A revolution has the potential to overthrow the social basis of a society and change the property relations, but nothing guarantees that in advance. The only way for the revolution to be carried to the end is for it to do that, but history is too complex to say the only kind of revolution is one that achieves everything.

It is clear that there was a revolution in Egypt, by Lenin's definition: the ruling class is divided and incapable of ruling as before, the working class was willing to fight to the end and unwilling to be ruled as before, the middle class vascillated between the two. The only thing missing was a mass revolutionary party capable of channeling the energy of the masses towards completely destroying the old regime a d the brotherhood.

The Egyptian masses have now carried out two revolutions, one against Mubarak, and one against Morsi, and yet they have not been able to finish the task due to a lack of leadership. This deadlock has now created an opening for bonapartism: the state raises itself above the contending classes and gains a relative independence.

Had the masses finished off the brotherhood themselves over the past month, it would have laid the basis for the worker's state, as the masses impose their own order like they did with the revolutionary committees briefly during the first revolution. But they didn't, and now the army are the ones imposing order by the sword.

You can't throw out the past developments because the end result is not pleasing.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Also, contrary to what you or I think about the MB, do you really expect a country of predominantly Muslim people not to vote for Islamic parties?

Why not? Is Islam some sort of black magic that forces "predominantly Muslim people" to vote for fundamentalist parties? Albania must be insulated from this black magic somehow. Must be the mountains, or the lingering influence of Evil Sorcerer Hoxha.

It really is amusing to see this many people tailing the Brotherhood. Have people learned nothing from the shameful support given to Khomeini by much of the centrist "left"?

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Yo fuckface, I was talking about you.

That's your thing isn't it, insurrection against the pigs, make total destroy? And that's about all anarchists did in Spain, burn churches and run from battle.

Maybe I can't pick because they're all assholes.

Where do you get this shit?

Anarchists in Spain were among the most politically conscious and active groups in Europe. The de facto allowance of reformist policies because the CNT refused to participate on politics beyond fabled general strikes indeed strongly gutted the movement, but to call them 'cowardly anarchists who flee and shoot churches' is absolutely ridiculous. Barcelona was one of the most revolutionary regions of Europe, and was destroyed utterly by international embargo and encroaching fascist forces. They were ten times as revolutionary than anybody in Albania during the Albanian Labour Party's time.

Also, considering the Church in Spain basically consisted of the most fascist, reactionary and royalist scum in the country I couldn't really blame them from shooting a few Jesus statues now and then.

[Hit The North]

It really is amusing to see this many people tailing the Brotherhood. Have people learned nothing from the shameful support given to Khomeini by much of the centrist "left"?

Calling for the end of military rule is not tailing the MB. Approving of the assault against the MB, however, is most definitely tailing the military dictatorship.

[Red HalfGuard]

Several polls taken before the ouster:

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2013/08/17/new-poll-finds-pessimism-in-egypt/
http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/opinion-poll-71-egyptians-do-not-sympathize-pro-morsy-protesters
http://baseera.com.eg/baseera/home_en.aspx

Kindof puts the lie to the whole "defending democracy" thing, doesn't it?

[TheIrrationalist]

Several polls taken before the ouster:

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2013/08/17/new-poll-finds-pessimism-in-egypt/
http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/opinion-poll-71-egyptians-do-not-sympathize-pro-morsy-protesters
http://baseera.com.eg/baseera/home_en.aspx

Kindof puts the lie to the whole "defending democracy" thing, doesn't it?

I'm very suspicious of any poll claiming to represent the views of the whole population. Egypt has a population of 82.5 million, those polls claim to have collected the opinions of about 1000 or 2000 Egyptians. So I'm not very convinced.

[The Douche]

Indeed, and the real issue is how can the revolution be pushed forward. If you think it can be advanced through the reintroduction of military rule then you are wrong.

What room is there for the coptic community (and, no doubt, secular people, and socialists/communists/radicals) in a revolution where the leading force wants to cleanse Egypt of them?

For the Egyptian revolution to succeed Egyptians must defeat the Brotherhood and the army.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Maybe you didn't notice but Egypt had its first free election since 1952. If that wasn't a gain for the Egyptian people then why did they fight for it?



Indeed, and the real issue is how can the revolution be pushed forward. If you think it can be advanced through the reintroduction of military rule then you are wrong.


when did i say that i think that the revolution can be pushed forward by military rule? did i not point out the fallacy in taking either side in general as if this is a football match?

and you may well want to patronize the Egyptian proletariat and pat them on the head for getting a bourgeois election organized but you should consider the fact that most egyptians were unsatisfied with the way the elected government (more like re-shuffle) turned out. hence why they went out on the streets - they weren't satisfied, nor should they be. the muslim brotherhood certainly aren't concerned with advancing the revolution, they were happy with morsi. did morsi's short time in office represent a period of progress in the midst of the Egyptian revolution (which, we hope, will continue until it advances the conditions of the proletariat further and further)? of course not, so the masses went out and said they wanted him out. the army initiated this with force, but that doesn't mean that we support the army as we know that they have their own agenda(s). what we must do is understand the concerns of the masses, who were tired of morsi already. their revolution isn't over, nor should it be. the revolution doesn't end with an election result, nor does it end with military rule.

see the whole picture - that is the only way to assess a scenario like this one.

[Ann Egg]

This is a rather crude definition of revolution that would invalidate most revolutions in human history. The February revolution in Russia overthrew an emperor only to immediately replace him with a Prince. Hence, no February revolution?

A revolution guarantees neither socialism nor victory. A revolution has the potential to overthrow the social basis of a society and change the property relations, but nothing guarantees that in advance. The only way for the revolution to be carried to the end is for it to do that, but history is too complex to say the only kind of revolution is one that achieves everything.

It is clear that there was a revolution in Egypt, by Lenin's definition: the ruling class is divided and incapable of ruling as before, the working class was willing to fight to the end and unwilling to be ruled as before, the middle class vascillated between the two. The only thing missing was a mass revolutionary party capable of channeling the energy of the masses towards completely destroying the old regime a d the brotherhood.

The Egyptian masses have now carried out two revolutions, one against Mubarak, and one against Morsi, and yet they have not been able to finish the task due to a lack of leadership. This deadlock has now created an opening for bonapartism: the state raises itself above the contending classes and gains a relative independence.

Had the masses finished off the brotherhood themselves over the past month, it would have laid the basis for the worker's state, as the masses impose their own order like they did with the revolutionary committees briefly during the first revolution. But they didn't, and now the army are the ones imposing order by the sword.

You can't throw out the past developments because the end result is not pleasing.
You must be high or delusional or both. You have literally no grasp on reality.

First of all for what I assume is a Trotskyist(makes sense really, Trotskyists have been running around aimlessly like delusional headless chickens for 73 years, not understanding what's happening around them, ever since Trotsky was killed) you have a very poor grasp on the history of the February Revolution or the Bolshevik Coup. Allow me to explain. The February Revolution did not just overthrow an Emperor and replace him with a 'prince'(good job on being disengenuous there, 'prince'? Lvov was, by very distant relationship, a hereditary Knyaz, or a Duke/Prince, unrelated to the Royal Family, and relative to the other members of the nobility, rather poor and unconnected at birth, and moreover, he was a "center-left" Kadet). The February Revolution fundamentally changed Russian society. It overthrew the aristocratic political class and put the bourgeoisie in charge. It broke the power of the landed nobility. And more importantly it lead to the foundation of the Soviets and the dual power of workers' Soviets and the bourgeoisie's Provisional Government.

None of this has happened in Egypt. Not even close. At first there was a neoliberal oligarchy of the military millionaires , with Mubarak as the figurehead. Then there was a neoliberal oligarchy of the military millionaires with Mohammad Tantwai as the figurehead. Then we had a neoliberal Islamist dictatorship with Morsi as the figurehead. Now we are back to the neoliberal oligarchy of the military millionaires, with Abdul Al-Sisi as the figurehead.

Why you would think that Mubarak's demise constituted a revolution is beyond me. You Trots subscribe to the Great Men of History theory, I guess that's the reason. Mubarak, for your information, was just the tip of the iceberg. His removal did nothing to upset the political-economical power structure in Egypt.

Just because some of the objective conditions necessary for revolution were present, that doesn't somehow signify that a revolution occurred, or was bound to occur.

[CyM]

You must be high or delusional or both. You have literally no grasp on reality.

First of all for what I assume is a Trotskyist(makes sense really, Trotskyists have been running around aimlessly like delusional headless chickens for 73 years, not understanding what's happening around them, ever since Trotsky was killed) you have a very poor grasp on the history of the February Revolution or the Bolshevik Coup. Allow me to explain. The February Revolution did not just overthrow an Emperor and replace him with a 'prince'(good job on being disengenuous there, 'prince'? Lvov was, by very distant relationship, a hereditary Knyaz, or a Duke/Prince, unrelated to the Royal Family, and relative to the other members of the nobility, rather poor and unconnected at birth, and moreover, he was a "center-left" Kadet). The February Revolution fundamentally changed Russian society. It overthrew the aristocratic political class and put the bourgeoisie in charge. It broke the power of the landed nobility. And more importantly it lead to the foundation of the Soviets and the dual power of workers' Soviets and the bourgeoisie's Provisional Government.

None of this has happened in Egypt. Not even close. At first there was a neoliberal oligarchy of the military millionaires , with Mubarak as the figurehead. Then there was a neoliberal oligarchy of the military millionaires with Mohammad Tantwai as the figurehead. Then we had a neoliberal Islamist dictatorship with Morsi as the figurehead. Now we are back to the neoliberal oligarchy of the military millionaires, with Abdul Al-Sisi as the figurehead.

Why you would think that Mubarak's demise constituted a revolution is beyond me. You Trots subscribe to the Great Men of History theory, I guess that's the reason. Mubarak, for your information, was just the tip of the iceberg. His removal did nothing to upset the political-economical power structure in Egypt.

Just because some of the objective conditions necessary for revolution were present, that doesn't somehow signify that a revolution occurred, or was bound to occur.
I have great difficulty discussing with someone who does not see a mass movement which involves millions of people and leads to a political overthrow as a revolution. All because it was purely a political, not social, overturn, and you are under the mistaken assumption that there is no such thing as a revolution that does not change the social base of society.

Marx wrote about purely political revolutions many times, particularly in the history of France, and it is extremely ignorant to rule them out. At its base, a revolution is the entry of the masses onto the scene of history. In normal periods, history is made by specialists of the ruling class and by armies. The masses are passive observers of history, which is something done to them. In a revolution, the masses flood onto the stage, and begin to shape history themselves, it becomes something they do with their own hands.

This activity of the masses is the fundamental point of a revolution. This is self evident in Egypt.

As for Prince Lvov: it was not until the October revolution (not coup) that the landlords were dispossessed. Until then, the bourgeois worked closely with them and refused to seize the land. So no, aristocracy was only eliminated by the second revolution.

Which leads us to whether a revolution is only a revolution when it is finished. It is clear that the old regime still exists in Egypt, and little has been achieved. What is required is a new revolution, to seize the property of the millionaires and billionaires who profited off of Mubarak and Morsi's violence. A socialist revolution to break with capitalism and bring jobs, housing, bread and democratic control. This is what is required for the revolution to be finished. Just as February required October to complete its tasks.

[GerrardWinstanley]

I think Rabaa and the other sit-ins could have been dispersed with less bloodshed, but these tensions had been brewing for a long time. This was not another Tahrir Square. These 'protest camps' were rapidly developing into a parallel state and threatened the very integrity of the Egyptian state itself (http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/08/egypt-scorched-earth-strategy-nawara.html), or at best, with brutal civil war and the hounding of Christians from Egypt.

Those not sympathetic to the Brotherhood's cause and other undesirables had effectively been taken prisoner. Those who escaped, reported mass killing and child torture. (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/08/egypt_s_islamists_turn_violent) The freedom of Islamists to organise politically is one thing, but demanding that Egypt allow two parallel states co-exist within the same borders is absurd. I don't know if the army did the right thing going to the lengths they did, but the alternative to destroying the camps (a civil war like Algeria's or, God forbid, Syria) would certainly have been worse.

[Luís Henrique]

See, what is going on in the Middle East (and elsewhere) cannot be correctly read within the frame of religious sectarianism - or that or international politics, fwiw. True, the political agents on the field do reason along those lines; it doesn't mean that it is the case, it means that the political agents on the field are deluded.

The depth and strength of the upheavals in Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia, Syria, Libya, Qatar, Yemen, etc., are too much to be attributed to sectarian clashes or conspiracies by the CIA/Mossad/FSB/whatever.

But the situation, as of now, is different than it was under Mubarak. Then, a broad movement for the ousting of the dictatorship was possible, uniting every political force in Egypt, from trotskyists to the Muslim Brotherhood. Now, such broad movement is impossible. The MB is on the streets, not to topple the dictatorship, but to reinstate Mursi, or some other of their leaders. But Mursi himself isolated himself from all forces that fought against the dictatorship, and isn't going to be supported by any of them. This means that the brutal repression of the MB insurrection isn't going to prompt an across-the-board oppositional movement. They are on their own now, and, frankly, it doesn't look sensible to anyone in the left to try and rescue them from their isolation.

This prompts a very different issue, which is, how to organise opposition against the military rule in Egypt without making any kind of ouverture to the MB. This, in my opinion, needs a positive agenda; it is not enough to oppose the role of the Army as the backbone of bourgeois rule in Egypt, or to oppose Sharia and the harassment of Copts (even if both things are necessary). It is time to say what Egypt should become, and to be able to say "out the military" without implying "back with Mursi". Otherwise the repression of the MB is going to be only the general rehearsal of the reinstatement of military dictatorial rule, with the laws and practices used to suppress the Ikhwan remaining as a permanent threat against all opposition in Egypt.

Luís Henrique

[Sasha]

Statement by the Egyptian Libertarian Socialist Movement: http://www.revleft.com/vb/statement-egyptian-libertarian-t182740/index.html?p=2653714#post2653714