Tibet

[AmericanZionist2004]

I was visiting Stanford University this summer, and I saw a poster that urged for Jiang Zemin to be prosecuted as a war criminal for "crimes in Tibet." What do you think about the whole Tibet issue, and also what is your take on the Falun Gong issue?

Just some questions.

[Jesus Christ]

I believe that China has no right to Tibet, at all, nor Taiwan or Hong Kong for that matter.

They've oppressed the Tibetans constantly, and made life a living hell, burning temples and killing religious leaders.
It may not take place now as much as it did earlier on in China, but it is unforgivable.
No one should be terrorized simply because of religion.

[Bolshevika]

My opinion of Chinese involvement in Tibet is the exact opposite of Jesus'. I believe China has right to Hong Kong, Taiwan, Tibet, and other countries that are rightfully there's and/or taken under mandate by foreign imperialists.

I believe the Tibetan monks deserve no pity. They are the most reactionary, oppressors the Tibetan feudalists. They did not show any mercy for all the innocent children they raped, killed, or enslaved. They did not show any mercy for the peasants and serfs. So why should we show these lowlives mercy?

[Hiero]

NO mater what you say tibet was way better off under is own feudalist government tehn under chinas rule. If it got its much deserved inderpendance i doubt it would go back to its old ways.

[synthesis]

I would be careful with broadly asserting that Tibet, as an entire country, was better off under feudalism.

The clerical class and the feudal aristocracy were certainly better off under the feudal structure than under Chinese rule. I have my doubts as to the benefit of such a system to the peasantry, however.

[SonofRage]

I support the Dalai Lama and support the Tibetan people's right for self-determination.

[Pete]

I find it rather ironic that the Chinese government supported Falun Dong until it got almost bigger than the party itself, and now they are arresting and beating practionarers of an entirely peaceful form of ritual. Its ludicrist, and shows us that not just America undergoes a "change of course" every few years when they see fit.

[iloveatomickitten]

The nature of the Tibetan monks is irrelevant the fact is that the will of the people should be respected and if the Tibetan people want to be free of China then they should be allowed to break away.
I can see no other reason for China to retain Tibet other those synonymous with capitalism/feudalism.

[Loknar]

I don’t care about the conquest of Tibet, conquest happens, it is something humans do. However what the Chinese have been doing is criminal. But we should remember the pre-1950 conditions, those monks were oppressive as hell, the government was very decentralized, people were either owned or aristocrats and they had virtually no manufacturing capability.

[Saint-Just]

NO mater what you say tibet was way better off under is own feudalist government tehn under chinas rule.

China has improved living standars greatly in Tibet, and a fascist, national chauvanist clique of human rights abusers is better than the old feudal system. This is because the feudal system had even less respect for human rights, was far more greatly impoverhished and less democratic than the bourgeois dictatorship in China.

[Subversive Rob]

NO mater what you say tibet was way better off under is own feudalist government tehn under chinas rule. If it got its much deserved inderpendance i doubt it would go back to its old ways.

What!? Under the feudalist artistocracy the Tibetians were treated like animals. I'll bet that many of the Tibetian people much prefer the Chinese administration to their previous feudalism. Read this article by Michael Parenti - it's very interesting:

Friendly Feudalism (http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html)

I love this quote from the Dalai Lama:

"Of all the modern economic theories, the economic system of Marxism is founded on moral principles, while capitalism is concerned only with gain and profitability. Marxism is concerned with the distribution of wealth on an equal basis and the equitable utilization of the means of production. It is also concerned with the fate of the working classes-that is the majority -- as well as with the fate of those who are underprivileged and in need, and Marxism cares about the victims of minority-imposed exploitation. For those reasons the system appeals to me, and it seems fair. . . .

The failure of the regime in the Soviet Union was, for me not the failure of Marxism but the failure of totalitarianism. For this reason I think of myself as half-Marxist, half-Buddhist."

[The Feral Underclass]

I believe that religion is fundamentally wrong however tibet as a nation has the right to exist without the fear of domination from an oppressive regime.

Bolshevika

It is interesting that you slate imperialism in one breathe then support china's expansion and claims to land in another. China has not rights over anyone or anything who do not wish them to be in control of them. Tibet and Taiwan have the right to self determination and both countries have shown explicitly that they do not wish the Chinese government to administer them. The chinese have no claims over those lands except in an imperialist agenda.

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by Subversive [email protected] 14 2004, 08:52 AM


What!? Under the feudalist artistocracy the Tibetians were treated like animals. I'll bet that many of the Tibetian people much prefer the Chinese administration to their previous feudalism. Read this article by Michael Parenti - it's very interesting:

Friendly Feudalism (http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html)

I love this quote from the Dalai Lama:

"Of all the modern economic theories, the economic system of Marxism is founded on moral principles, while capitalism is concerned only with gain and profitability. Marxism is concerned with the distribution of wealth on an equal basis and the equitable utilization of the means of production. It is also concerned with the fate of the working classes-that is the majority -- as well as with the fate of those who are underprivileged and in need, and Marxism cares about the victims of minority-imposed exploitation. For those reasons the system appeals to me, and it seems fair. . . .

The failure of the regime in the Soviet Union was, for me not the failure of Marxism but the failure of totalitarianism. For this reason I think of myself as half-Marxist, half-Buddhist."
And what has China ever had to do with Marxism? It's the same old story of an authoritarian Marxist-Leninist (that seems reduntant honestly) regime gaining power for itself in the name of the people.

[Bolshevika]

It is interesting that you slate imperialism in one breathe then support china's expansion and claims to land in another. China has not rights over anyone or anything who do not wish them to be in control of them. Tibet and Taiwan have the right to self determination and both countries have shown explicitly that they do not wish the Chinese government to administer them. The chinese have no claims over those lands except in an imperialist agenda.

It is different to invade a sovereign country that has never been yours for money, and assure the boundaries of China. Taiwan, Tibet, and Hong Kong are all rightfully China's, Iraq is not rightfully America's.

[Chewillneverdie]

Tibet differs from China greatly, as does Taiwan. lol bolsh is really fun to laugh at, so HAHA to you you dipshit, he supports mass executions, not to mention killing so they can sell the organs, ooh and enslavement of THE WORKING TIBETANS what was marx for? the WORKERS maybe. Subverse the people are worked as slaves, tortured, than executed i bet they love China.

[Bolshevika]

lol bolsh is really fun to laugh at, so HAHA to you you dipshit,

This is just not fair. I try my best to debate in a civil fashion, outlining my ideas and nothing else, and I get restricted for "trolling". This guy flames me for no reason at all but for disagreeing with him, and he'll probably have Commie Club access soon. I will do the same in return to Chewillneverdie.

The rest of your post is the same old sing and dance you always bring when attempting to defend feudalist tyrants. What kind of communist are you? Is the left getting a new makeover?

This buddhism thing is just another fad you will go through, you'll be in church worshipping Jesus and "repenting" soon.

Che would be embarrassed to learn people like you claim to be of his ideology.


THE WORKING TIBETANS what was marx for? the WORKERS maybe.

Please do not even attempt to quote Marx in defense of feudalism and superstition, he would be utterly disgusted, being a materialist and a champion of proletarian anti-monarchist politics.


Subverse the people are worked as slaves, tortured, than executed i bet they love China.

Speculations...

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Subverse the people are worked as slaves, tortured, than executed i bet they love China.

Huh.And they weren't under the Dalai Lama?Do you support feudalism?Do you know that this is one of the most oppressive ideologies ever?

[SonofRage]

They certainly weren't tortured or executed under the Dalai Lama.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Ahem.Please read this.


http://rwor.org/a/firstvol/tibet/tib-in.htm

[Comrade Zeke]

To Bolshevika:
You are a hard line Stalinist arnt you??? You and Comrade Ceausescu although comrade Ceausescu backs up his claims with good reasons you just come up with hard line Opressive Soveit Idiolgy. The Tibeatan people desserve there freedom. Under the Dali Lama they were at peace and their Buddists they beilieve in peace. Communist China is oppresive and wanted to destroy their Utopia of peace and prosparity. You have to be more Liberal...like Alexander Dubeck who wanted Chezslovakia to be Communist but wanted everyone to be free you think that he wanted everyone to be enslaved. Do you think Che wanted oppression like Stalin????? Do you think that Tito wanted that??? Tito saw the Communism couldn't work unless it has some liberalism. So I say down with China and let Tiebet go!!!
Freedom!!! :D

[Bolshevika]

Do you think Che wanted oppression like Stalin?

He wanted to achieve a state like Stalin. Tito is irrelevant.

To think an oppressive feudal state is a "utopia" is completely anti-communist. Maybe it was a "utopia" for the monks who were in power, but for the serfs it was hell. I'll side with the Serfs any day over a bunch of superstitious oppressors. Do not refer to China as "communist" either, they are a quasi capitalist oligarchy who have a market socialist system similar to your hero Tito.

How are the people of Tibet enslaved? Do they live in the old caste system? In my opinion, caste systems are far more slave like than whatever odd ideology/system China brings over there. Death to superstition.

[Comrade Zeke]

Bolshevika:your one of the those hard linner Stalinists arnt you?
Tiebet desserves to be free from Chinese rule. Before the Chinese came along the Tibeatians were happy and lived in a Utopia of freedom and peace. Then the Communist Chinese came in and detroyed that. You seem to always back up your claims that people arnt real Communist because we have "turned solf" Im a Liberal Communist I dont beilive that Communism should be like Stalinism or Maoism,oppresive and not what Communism is. In my opinion the perfect Communist society was Tito's Yugoslavia...because he let people choose their own jobs..no one was oppresed and Tortured and people were living good unlike the USSR WHEN THEY WERE RUNNING OUT OF FOOD. And how can you support the Chinese communist goverment that dosent allow freedom??? That is not what Che wanted. Che wanted freedom form Imperilsm,not a USSR to rule the world even though he was a Stalinist. SO I SAY FREEDOM TO TIEBET!! AND ITS PEOPLE! :D

[Bolshevika]

Freedom? For who? The slave owners? A group of ruling class, lord-like monks who keep peoples down?

I spit on that freedom, I am a communist, not a bourgeois apologist. I believe in democratic rights for the toiling masses, and absolutely No civil rights for the ruling class. Religious people, capitalists, fascists, all deserve no sympathy from me or any genuine revolutionary, since they are reactionaries who deserve nothing but 20 years in the Siberian work camps.

Genuine socialist USSR ran out of food? I guess you make a point, there were bread, meat, etc shortages when the imperialists invaded the USSR in 1921, however, when farms were collectivized, food was plentiful (except for during WWII). Revisionist Khruschevite "socialism" (similar to Tito's, USSR was "destalinzed" and given more "economic liberty") did ruin the great economy Stalin built that still holds Russia up today. However, even in the revisionist USSR people ate better than many in Russia do today.

Tibetian former ruling class want to cry about how the Chinese government is taking away the land they stole from the working people, that's too bad in my opinion.

How do you know the masses of Tibet want feudalism back? Because a few religious opportunists capitalize on the superstition of the reactionary minded starting little "free Tibet" sites that appeal to university kids looking for "spiritual guidance" ?

Stalin and Mao allowed people to chose their own jobs for the most part. The only exceptions were workers who were "good for anything", they were assigned, but this is good. However, if you wanted to study to become a doctor, you were allowed. If you want to be a lawyer, you had the freedom. Etc.

What is "freedom" in your opinion? I am not fan of the current Chinese government, but I recognize that Tibet is rightfully there's and they have the right to do as they wish with it. I'd prefer to live under Chinese revisionist capitalist oligarchy over buddhist nonsense.

What is the difference between a government based on Buddhism and an Islamic theocracy? Absolutely nothing.

[The Feral Underclass]

Taiwan, Tibet, and Hong Kong are all rightfully China's,

Says whom? Regardless of any contract or piece of paper these terriroties, like any territory, has the right to self determination. Taiwan and Tibet are indevidual countries in themselves and have existed as sch for decades. They have stressed that they do not want China to dominate them.

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 14 2004, 09:17 PM
Ahem.Please read this.


http://rwor.org/a/firstvol/tibet/tib-in.htm
and you expect me to actually put my faith in what I read in Revolutionary Worker? Even RCP doesn't deny the huge MLM slant of it's paper. It is one thing that have analysis through a certain lens, it is quite another to accept propaganda as news.

[Comrade Zeke]

Freedom is in my opinion is the right to vote....be able to write about anything you want in the news paper...books T.V not oppretion form a goverment. Im a Communist I addmit that now but whatever you are wishing their will be no Utopia form Communism but there can be a soceity like that of Tito&#39;s or Castro&#39;s. Stalin killed his own 30,000 of them. How many Teibtens do you think have been killed under Chinese rule???? A lot more then under Stalin. Mao as I said is a gross pervert who took like 2 baths in his life time. He betrays Communism because he beilived that everyone has HAdTO WORK on a collective farms or in a company that make toys. I bet you the key bored im typing on right now is Chinese. So there wasn&#39;t many writers and Philoshpheres in China. Now the Soviet Union had all the stuff because it was the closets nation that ever got to "TRUE COMMUNISM" but anyway no I do not think that the Teibetans were wrong in fallowing the Buda. Im not a buddet but every one the right to their religion. In Communist Yugoslavia under Tito you could worship anything you wanted. Unlike in China or the former Soveit Union because I have noticed most Communist are athesits but does it really have to go to extreams of the former Soveit Union not allowing Religious freedom in Russia?? In Cuba people are free to religion. So I think that freedom from a Communist China is because..have you ever looked at a Buddust from Teibet really??? Their the most peaceful people you will ever see in your life they are centerd but they are queit. The Chinese have tooken that away by not allowing them to worship freely. And im preety sure the surfs in Teibet were more happy under the Dali Lama then Mao. NOW TAWIAN THAT IS A ANTHOR CASE. Tawain does not desserve to be a nation they need to be nuced by China to show them a lesson. Tawain is a rebellion that should have never happend. <_<

[Bolshevika]

Says whom? Regardless of any contract or piece of paper these terriroties, like any territory, has the right to self determination. Taiwan and Tibet are indevidual countries in themselves and have existed as sch for decades. They have stressed that they do not want China to dominate them

Not really, Hong Kong was never really a independent country, it was a British colony that was signed over to China.

Taiwan is rightfully China&#39;s, I don&#39;t think many people question that.

Tibet is rightfully China. The fascist Chaing Kai Shek gave Tibet some sovereignity after the 1929, however, Chiang Kai Shek&#39;s laws no longer were good in new China. When the Qing Dynasty was overthrown around 1911 it did not mean they were independent of China. Tibet has been China&#39;s for many, many years.

They have no right to exist.

Son Of Rage

How is it you discredit our sources, yet seem to support Tibetan buddhist sources? That is very partisan of you.

Comrade Zeke

The people in the USSR under Stalin had a similar democratic system to Cuba&#39;s. People in the USSR elected Soviets, many of them local workers, to represent their collective farm, district, etc.

I do not care about religion. If you want to worship at home, then fine. However, keep it absolutely private and do not attempt to influence anyone into your religion or promote religious garbage in public. In Cuba during Christmas, Fidel did not allow people to put Christmas trees in front of their houses, I applaude him for this.

Believe all the things about how "peaceful" and "nice" the superstitious pro-imperialist feudal dictator&#39;s of the bourgeoisie are, I do not care. If it were up to me all of these feudal counter revolutionaries would be jailed or shot.

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 08:11 AM
Son Of Rage

How is it you discredit our sources, yet seem to support Tibetan buddhist sources? That is very partisan of you.
Where have I shown support for or even referred to Tibetan Buddhist sources? My opinion on this issue has been formed by reading sources on both sides of this issue. However, I tend to view Revolutionary Worker as being primarily a propaganda organ for the RCP. I am not placing a value judgement on this, I am merely making an observation. There is an important distinction between a paper that espouses views through a particular framing and a paper that is meant to serve as a propaganda tabloid.

In the interest of honesty and full disclosure, it should be known (although I have not tried to hide this information and it has been posted on this site in earlier threads) that I follow the Buddha&#39;s teaching as a philosophy (as opposed to following it as a religion) and way of life. I believe that people who wish to follow this way of life more devoutly should be respected and it is not the place of any party elite to force a "cultural revolution" on them so they can "admit" their beliefs are "wrong."

[Bolshevika]

that I follow the Buddha&#39;s teaching as a philosophy

Oh ok, this explains it. You should&#39;ve said this, of course you have a bias. Just like I have a bias against the religious.

[Loknar]

Tibet has every right to exist, Tibet had independence for thousands of years before the Chinese came. There were other instances of occupation, for example, the Mongols controlled Tibet, should we give Tibet to the Mongols now? And historically speaking, before Tibet’s feudal period, they kicked china’s ass, if Tibet didn’t degrade as it did Chinas would not have been able to conquer them.


I don’t care that Tibet was conquered, in fact the Dali Lamas government (or lack there of) was very oppressive and the people lived in poor conditions. However what the Chinese did in the beginning of occupation was tragic. having kids shoot their parents, making monks and nuns screw on the streets ect.. rwor refers to the invasion as a &#39;revolution&#39;, well how the fuck can an invading army occupy a country and call it a revolution? In terms of change perhaps it&#39;s true, but it damned sure wasn’t a popular revolution.

Now, here is a fact, the Tibetans now make up less than %50 of the population, the rest are Chinese colonists. Now, that is the biggest fucking example cultural imperialism I have ever read about. What will Tibet look like in 100 years with all those Chinese there? If the Tibetans manage to get independence they should sterilize those colonists or kick them out.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Giving Tibet back to the Tibetans is about as practical as giving America back to the Native Americans.

[New Tolerance]

Nevermind.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

and you expect me to actually put my faith in what I read in Revolutionary Worker? Even RCP doesn&#39;t deny the huge MLM slant of it&#39;s paper. It is one thing that have analysis through a certain lens, it is quite another to accept propaganda as news.

It might have some propaganda in it,but the bulk is true. Most of the stuff said in that article is true. Tibet was feudal. Feudalism is the most oppressive system for anyone who is not in the small nobility,ever.

[Chewillneverdie]

The Tibetan people only want peace, lol please tell me how much you know about Buddhism and please list where you got that "info". A fact is that the Chinese own the Tibetans, the Tibetans wont fight back, why? because buddhism teaches peace. You talk so much shit on Buddhism , against the Dalai Lama, please tell me how much you know about him. Oh yes the Tibetan monks sure do opress the people lol. Wow you&#39;ve made my day, i havent laughed this hard since....well... the time i slipped offa quarterpipe (lol ICE&#33;) hey Bolsh how popular are you at school? lol that might explain why your always anti everything

[Comrade Zeke]

To Bolshevika.....you are oppresive Idiot you know that. But I will not say your opionions are wrong im just saying I do not aproove of them. Castro although he is oppersive does allow the Catholic church in his country although he had been excomunicated. Stalin I dont even think he had a good drop of blood in him. And the Buddasits of Teibet desserve their indepndece. China had made that impossible because besides Fasisms and Capitalism that us communist despise but IMPERLISM in which is happening to Tibet right now. China has no right and China has come just as Corrupt as the USSR had been :angry: . Although we still have to trust that China will support all Communist coutries and keep it alive.

[Jesus Christ]

You say that Tibet rightfully belongs to China along with Hong Kong and Taiwan, but the only one can make is that these regions only belong to China due to its armed imperialistic invasions of these regions.
China has no rights to these regions, especially since the Chinese government is always denouncing imperialism, so they are just contradicting themselves.

Never in a million years could I support Chinese intervention in what should be the independent regions of Tibet, Hong Kong, and Taiwan.

I realize that China will not give these regions up without a fight, but the least they can do is give these people their cultures back.
Ever since the Chinese aquisition of these regions, they have forced Chinese culture upon them, forcing these regions to adopt Chinese as the official language, and to have these regions give up their individuality.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Cheneverdies,do you actually know a fucking thing about Tibet before communism?Do you even know what feudalism is?You know how ignorant you look right now?

[Comrade Zeke]

Comrade Ceausescu dont be hard on cheneverdies he is just stating his Opionions. But I do have to agree because im not a Stalinist like you and Bolshevika. :)

[New Tolerance]

If Tibet seperates, we the Chinese, are going to join them, in a big country called Tibet. Then we will have a referendum and change the name back to China.

(Yes, then they are going to be like: Wtf? and try to seperate again) :D

[Bolshevika]

A fact is that the Chinese own the Tibetans, the Tibetans wont fight back, why?

Actually the Tibetan ruling clique attempted to conscript serfs into an army to fight back, however they were either destroyed or gave up.

Buddhist theocracies have armies. Just look at the Burmese government for example.


i havent laughed this hard since....well... the time i slipped offa quarterpipe

It isn&#39;t that funny. Although, the latter is tragic, because when you slipped you didn&#39;t seriously injure yourself.

Maybe you should take some anger management courses Che will never die, you seem to follow in the footsteps of your theocratic masters. Please stop embarrassing Che Guevara with your avatar and username.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Comrade Ceausescu dont be hard on cheneverdies he is just stating his Opionions. But I do have to agree because im not a Stalinist like you and Bolshevika

I disagree.If he is &#39;starting&#39; his opinoins,or if anyone is,don&#39;t make loud statements and act like you know something,when you don&#39;t. You should speak with strong opinoins,only when you know what you are talking about.Otherwise you look like chewillneverdie-an idiot.

[Chewillneverdie]

lol i am Buddhist, so i do know quite a bit about the culture of Tibet, and i do know quite a bit about the meanings of my religion. Sigh im sorry i should support China shouldnt i? God knows i was wrong in believing the enslavement of a people is wrong, how horrible I must be to believe I knew anything about Tibet&#33; lol So according to you i should support China right, why is that. I dont like the US because it fucks up other nations, whats the diff. between those two?

[Chewillneverdie]

whohoho me an idiot? for only defending a people who are treated like shit? how can i be loud? this is a forum lol sorry im hyper so im just fuckin with ya. Coffee seems to do that. Anger management? holyshiat i am rarely angry. I know a fair share about Tibet, I am still waiting for someone to tell me why China diserves to own those people. You put up a good arguement i may consider it, but from my past and current studies it seems that the culture of these people has been stripped away, why should buddhist monks be tortured, then shot? I fail to see why they diserve this. Oh and Buddhists also made the best statement during Nam

[Bolshevika]

Chewillneverdie, if you "know" so much about Tibet, how about you start acting like a civilized human being and tell me everything you know in a coherent argument, preferrebly not with every sentence ending in "lol".

[Regicidal Insomniac]

Originally posted by Jesus [email protected] 16 2004, 02:05 AM
You say that Tibet rightfully belongs to China along with Hong Kong and Taiwan, but the only one can make is that these regions only belong to China due to its armed imperialistic invasions of these regions.
China has no rights to these regions, especially since the Chinese government is always denouncing imperialism, so they are just contradicting themselves.

Never in a million years could I support Chinese intervention in what should be the independent regions of Tibet, Hong Kong, and Taiwan.

I realize that China will not give these regions up without a fight, but the least they can do is give these people their cultures back.
Ever since the Chinese aquisition of these regions, they have forced Chinese culture upon them, forcing these regions to adopt Chinese as the official language, and to have these regions give up their individuality.

You say that Tibet rightfully belongs to China along with Hong Kong and Taiwan, but the only one can make is that these regions only belong to China due to its armed imperialistic invasions of these regions.

Actually the only reason Hong Kong did not belong to China was because of Britain&#39;s "armed imperialist invasion" of the region. After over one and a half centuries of British colonial rule, Hong Kong, the New Territories, Kowloon, Macau, and other areas consequently seized by the British were finally returned to Chinese rule in 1997.

Plus, I think it&#39;s kind of hard to "force Chinese culture" upon them when their culture is Chinese, or to "force the Chinese language" upon then when just about everybody does, and always have, spoken Mandarin or Cantonese. Also, Hong Kong is a SAR (Special Administrative Region) under Chinese rule, so they have just about complete autonomy anywho.

I&#39;m from Hong Kong and I&#39;ve spent alot of my life there (with family), and while you may be right about Taiwan and perhaps Tibet, what you say is very ignorant of Hong Kong cultural heritage. I also think the Chinese beuracracy is a bunch of bollocks, but I was glad to see the union jack pulled down in Hong Kong.


Now, to get on topic, Tibet... I&#39;m a trifle split on the topic. I acknowledge the brutality of the old theocracy, but also of the Chinese occupiers. It should by no means return to how it was before, but change needs to occur. As always, this must come from the proletarien Tibet. In such a reppressive society, revolt is the only democracy. A revolution in Tibet would be ideal, but one way or another China needs to loosen it&#39;s stangle hold on the cultural distinctiveness of Tibet. Like Quebec to Canda, Tibet is certaintly a distinct society. But respectively, that doesn&#39;t imply that they must sever immediately either, co-existance is possible with a rational and peaceful outlook... not that that&#39;s what I&#39;m expecting from the Chinese Communist Cop-outs.

[Chewillneverdie]

sorry bout the lol its a force of habit, I dont want Tibet going back to its old habits, but i do think it needs freed. I want a revolution in Tibet, but i want a true democracy, which, if the revolution should happen, wouldnt be that hard to put together.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 01:44 AM
The Tibetan people only want peace, lol please tell me how much you know about Buddhism and please list where you got that "info". A fact is that the Chinese own the Tibetans, the Tibetans wont fight back, why? because buddhism teaches peace. You talk so much shit on Buddhism , against the Dalai Lama, please tell me how much you know about him. Oh yes the Tibetan monks sure do opress the people lol. Wow you&#39;ve made my day, i havent laughed this hard since....well... the time i slipped offa quarterpipe (lol ICE&#33;) hey Bolsh how popular are you at school? lol that might explain why your always anti everything
Buddhists haven’t always been peaceful, in Korea and Japan monk armies were formed. In Japan they were brutal. In Tibet they were oppressive to their local subjects. hell the dali lama lived in luxury while the people lived in poverty under feudalism, all influenced by Tibetan Buddhism.

[Individual]

Please take my advice... Chewillneverdie does not know what he is talking about. From what I have learned about this confused character, he would say something along the lines of Ghandi is a cartoon on Nickelodeon and he would argue that until he was told he is a complete moron and never respond. This is an example but I have confronted this guy many times to only one response in which he changed the subject.. My point in this is that he takes about 5 seconds to form any opinion he has with no/ or barely any information besides his "heritage" to back it up.

[Comrade Zeke]

Guys come on we got to be liberal with this guy he is a newbie........yeah give this guy a chance you Stalinists you are being mean. lol next time he post though im expecting to see facts. <_<

[revolutionindia]

tHE tibetian people are far to gentle to fight the chinese the y need a few warriors

sOME BODUY DO SOMETHING

[Comrade Ceausescu]

He comes in taking swings at people he can&#39;t excpect them to be respectful.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Oh and Buddhists also made the best statement during Nam

*Simpsons Comic Shop Guy Voice* Please.

[Loknar]

what&#39;s wrong Ceausescu? is he insulting all the soviet organized protests that your parents engaged in? :D

[Bolshevika]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 16 2004, 07:04 AM
Guys come on we got to be liberal with this guy he is a newbie........yeah give this guy a chance you Stalinists you are being mean. lol next time he post though im expecting to see facts. <_<
We are trying to be nice to him. However, whenever we make any point to counter his, he just calls us "idiots", so he is asking for it. Can you imagine the shit he would give us if we were what you call "newbies" ?

[Individual]

For you arguing in behalf of Chewillneverdie.

It may be personal vendetta against him for some. However my full intent on confronting this individual is because he talks of nonsense. He speaks of that he knows all of these things, when in reality he truly knows nothing except what he heard at the dinner table from his parents. Its not about what his views are. It is whether of not he even knows what his views are. This child does not know the difference between capitalism and communism. He supports the US in wars against communism, and actually states that he "hates stalin" , yet he supports Che??? The main problem w/ Chewillneverdie is that he speaks with no facts, and changes his story. Everything he does contradicts something else he has already said.

This is my problem with Chewillneverdie, not the fact that he is new, or has opposing ideas, but the fact that he does not even know what he talks about, and when he does, he contradicts something he has already said. This child is very confused. Read around through various topics and pay attention, he will contradict himself. And trust me, this child is confused. I sent him a PM asking why he contradicts himself. I got a response of... and I quote...

"please tell me what my contridicting statements are. Im sure they seem that way, but i never jump to conclusions so it may seem like it i guess" ... this was just today (9/17)

so defend him as a newbie if you must. However it will do him much better to inform him of his stupidity so that maybe he will learn to research.

[Individual]

If this is topic is not good enough for you to conclude that Chewillneverdie contradicts himself and knows only propoganda headlines. I encourage you to click over to Philosophy and read the topic "Contradiction and the Lying Liars that tell them" where I have posted only some of the contradictions that I had come across to that date. There have more since then. He proceeds to make an idiot of himself. So please do not blame us for confronting him. It came upon himself.

[Bolshevika]

LOL Chewillneverdie once told me that his grandma in Poland was deported by Stalin. It was a lie I&#39;m sure.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

what&#39;s wrong Ceausescu? is he insulting all the soviet organized protests that your parents engaged in?

What the fuck?

[Chewillneverdie]

LOL Chewillneverdie once told me that his grandma in Poland was deported by Stalin. It was a lie I&#39;m sure. wow wtf, lol my grandparents live here, as did my great great grandparents. If you dont like me, so the fuck what lol i could really care less. www.friendsoftibet.org i think its org or try .com. lol those protesters in the US got fucked over real nice, Kent State in example, nobody listened to the "hippies". lol People still use the Buddhist monk on fire for many things. RATM for one, im just saying he got his point across. Id like to see you set yourself on fire at the next protest and just sit there. Revolutionindia id like to help, but me and a few friends are about to join the Zapitista movement in a few years.If i survive, id do something but it just seems suicidal. lol Always, what the hell is your problem, if my statements seem a bit off, who gives a shit anyways. If i am as you say, than its my problem. I know about Buddhism, wouldnt i have to? I know quite a bit, i have a local resistance, only about 20 but this isnt a big town. And my doings for FFE, I try to help. I seem to have, made people more aware, and ive learned alot from this site (putting flyers in shoeboxes lol my groups favorite way to fight against Nike) . Once again if you dont like me, i could care less lol. Some of you agree with me, good, some of you dont, okay. My family knows nothing about me by the way, lol got in trouble for having the communist manifesto in my room. Yes I hate Stalin, and yes i support Che, so the hell what, they werent the same people. I dont have to love Stalin to like Che do I? Che was one of the few people who would fight for what he believed in, and willing to help those who could not fend for themselves. ha the Congolese couldn&#39;t, ran away from their own set up ambush, believed they are protected from bullets by magic. Che is an inspiration in a time when everything seems like it may be lost. So i dont believe everything he believed in, so the fuck what. Boo hoo I dont agree with everything you do, so should i be shot?

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Yes,Che fought for what he believed in-Marxism-Leninism

[Individual]

Chewillneverdie:

I truly am dumbfounded at your blindness. I would recommend that for your own sake, you just don&#39;t ever say another word. I feel ashamed of myself for bringing myself to this point, but you really are a complete moron. Again you repeat your contradicitions. Everything you have basically said in this last post is a contradiction of what you have said in previous posts under various topics. Honestly I am getting sick of typing about this. So I am hoping this will be the last (however I am betting now that you won&#39;t stop). I really feel like trying one last time to point out all of the contradictions you have made. Especially the way you have contradicted yourself in this last one. However I dont feel like taking the time. So I strongly encourage you to go reread every post that you have ever made and witness for yourself your contradictions. If you fail to see your contradictions than you truly are unintelligent. I do not mean anything against you, and you think this is a disliking of you. This is not it, and I do not know how you can not see this, you must be in denial. I have done all of this to let you know that you represent yourself as a complete moron. Why: you clearly do not know what communism vs. capitalism is. You truly do not research/or have knowledge of the things that you talk about. You repeatedly go back and forth between supporting communism and support the imperialistic/capitalist US. I really could go on and on. This would be fine if you had opposite views than I, however the fact that you support one thing, and in another post you wrote only one or two days later you are fully supporting the opposite side. This leads myself, and I&#39;m sure others, to believe that you are just a rambling idiot. So for one last time, please go back and read every post you have made. I can hope, for your intelligence, that you can see the contradictions you have made. If you want some of them clearly laid out, read the topic under Philosophy (I can&#39;t believe I have to keep telling you this for you to understand) "Contradiction and the Lying Liars that tell them". I hope then when you come to a logical thought process that you will start to make sense in this community.

[Individual]

To sum it up for you because I have a feeling you will not be able to understand what I have said (reason:you haven&#39;t been able to yet).

It&#39;s not because I hate you, its because you make absolutely NO sense.

I hope this is short enough for you to understand. And one more thing to think about.

Look up the word Contradict, and then put your name in a sentence that reads:

I ______ ________, contradict myself by expressing opposite views without having any knowledge of them.

Then read that sentence a few times and respond when you get it. I feel bad that is has gotten to this point, but you have done it to yourself.

[Chewillneverdie]

lol wow boy did ur parents not love you enough? I know a kid like you, who fucked wif me, you know beat me up cus of religion that old chestnut. lol He also got the living shit beat out of him because of my good local support in FFE. lol your really starting to get annoying. I support WW2 yes, i support the troops in Nam yes, i support the troops in Iraq right now, yes. DONE IT TO MYSELF?? WTF IS YOUR PROBLEM? Im serious ill say it again and again IM NOT COMMUNIST. holy flying fuck, i support the freedom of Tibetans, and want the US troops to come back alive and now im a bad guy, people like you fucking make me sick. What makes you so fucking special, until you have near the amount of people following you that i have (im not bragging but its the truth) that listen to your command. Once again i must point out you fucking make me sick, im curious what have you done for the cause? How many people do you command, how many flyers, or how much money do you donate hmmm? lol You remind me of those people that have to be an ass to make themselves feel special, I know those people oh so well where i live, but hey lets just say after awhile they havent fucked with me at all ha. Tell me also, how do you plan on assisting any revolutionary movement? im curious, i have yet to see you talk with anyone else, so i may happen to know you and your pissed at me, or trying to discredit FFE or what, or your just a flat out prick

[Comrade Zeke]

What the fuck how ca you support the troops in Iraq&#33;&#33; or Vietnam for that matter&#33;&#33;&#33; Its not right the Communist in the Vietnam war were trying to United their country from the Dicatator in the south and the American troops that were oppressing the people.Heck im glad that the motherfucker SADDAM HUSSEIN is gone but US troops do not need to be there&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; You dont know what the fuck your talking about....YES I DO THINK THE TEIBETANS ARE FREE. But you cant support the US involdement in those countries. Its just wrong. You know the American were going to Drop an Atom Bomb on Belgrade in the second world war. Tito was pissed at them&#33; So why the fuck do you want the Americans to be in Iraq. ANd why are you comming in these COMMIE CHAT ROOMS if you dont support it&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; I may be a Titoist and I dont like Stalin and im a Liberal Commie but ALL MY COMRADES STILL BEILIVE IN THE SAME CAUSE.......YOU DIGUST ME AND YOU GIVE CHE A BAD NAME YOU POSSER&#33; :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

[Chewillneverdie]

dont support the war you dick. Lotsa Nam soldiers were drafted, poor mans war. I dont support the war in Iraq, i want the war over so they can come back. haha seems you misunderstood me there buddy. I dont want the US soldiers to die over there and i want them back, thats why im against the war, is that wrong or something? Once again, i want the troops home, thats why im anti-war. That and the invasion of Iraq has no good purpose, and does more harm than good. If we really wanted Saddam gone, there were other ways. Whats wrong with wanting the troops back?

[Comrade Ceausescu]

What the fuck how ca you support the troops in Iraq&#33;&#33; or Vietnam for that matter&#33;&#33;&#33; Its not right the Communist in the Vietnam war were trying to United their country from the Dicatator in the south and the American troops that were oppressing the people.Heck im glad that the motherfucker SADDAM HUSSEIN is gone but US troops do not need to be there&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; You dont know what the fuck your talking about....YES I DO THINK THE TEIBETANS ARE FREE. But you cant support the US involdement in those countries. Its just wrong. You know the American were going to Drop an Atom Bomb on Belgrade in the second world war. Tito was pissed at them&#33; So why the fuck do you want the Americans to be in Iraq. ANd why are you comming in these COMMIE CHAT ROOMS if you dont support it&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; I may be a Titoist and I dont like Stalin and im a Liberal Commie but ALL MY COMRADES STILL BEILIVE IN THE SAME CAUSE.......YOU DIGUST ME AND YOU GIVE CHE A BAD NAME YOU POSSER&#33;

Go Zeke&#33;Chewillneverdie-you are a reactionary rightist.Your true nature comes out.Support for Vietnam?Sickening.Most rightists don&#39;t even support it.

[Chewillneverdie]

onceafuckingan i dont support Nam, i dont think we shoulda been there, so i support the troops i.e. I wish the troops never went there. I know so many Nam vets seriously fucked up from the war. and you complain i dont read the posts?

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Support the troops?Why don&#39;t you just say that you oppose the war?

[Saint-Just]

Chewillneverdie, what do you think was the objective of the Americans in the Vietnam war?

the Tibetans wont fight back, why? because buddhism teaches peace. ~Chewillneverdie

The Dalai Lama had his own army. His army was funded by imperialists:

"More than 500,000 pounds - 250 tons - of...military gear...were dropped by the CIA to the Tibetan resistance forces from 1957 to 1961." - former CIA agent John Kenneth Knaus, in his book Orphans of the Cold War

The Tibetan army, made up of Buddhist monks and peasants who had to fight for no pay under the obligation of their landlords were defeated by the PLA.

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[Loknar]

Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 18 2004, 01:12 PM
Chewillneverdie, what do you think was the objective of the Americans in the Vietnam war?

the Tibetans wont fight back, why? because buddhism teaches peace. ~Chewillneverdie

The Dalai Lama had his own army. His army was funded by imperialists:

"More than 500,000 pounds - 250 tons - of...military gear...were dropped by the CIA to the Tibetan resistance forces from 1957 to 1961." - former CIA agent John Kenneth Knaus, in his book Orphans of the Cold War

The Tibetan army, made up of Buddhist monks and peasants who had to fight for no pay under the obligation of their landlords were defeated by the PLA.
I know people think of the Tibetans as peaceful, but historically they are warriors just like every other nation.



Chairman Mao, what do you think of Americas aid to the Tibetans? Considering what the Chinese were doing to the Tibetans it is only natural for them to want to resist. Many volunteered.


I recommend reading the article about the CIA&#39;s secret war in Tibet in this months "Military History" magazine.

[Saint-Just]

Chairman Mao, what do you think of Americas aid to the Tibetans? Considering what the Chinese were doing to the Tibetans it is only natural for them to want to resist. Many volunteered.

I think the American&#39;s aid to the Tibetans was done so that the Chinese may be weakened, economically and militarily. So that they may be drawn into a long and difficult struggle. As a result if the Americans were to come into conflict with the Russians the Chinese would not be as strong in aiding the Russian effort as they might have been. I imagine that those Tibetans who felt as though they were not Chinese wanted to resist, but those who felt they were Chinese would have invited the unification with China. I think the American military aid has nothing to do with any Tibetans desire for independence. I am hardly suprised the Americans aided the Tibetans and I would have done the same if I were in the ruling class of an imperialist nation and of the same ideals.

[Chewillneverdie]

[/QUOTE]Vietnam, to fight the "evil commies", but I think it continued was for blood money, and the US gov. didnt want us to look bad, so they kept sending out boys to die. I do oppose the war, but if i say that where i live i automatically "want the troops to die" rednecks seem to support everything Bush does, one of their own i guess. So let me get this straight, not very many of you support the Tibetan people wanting freedom?

[Comrade Zeke]

Chewillneverdie:

Just answear me this one question Chewillneverdie are you with us Commies who want freedom for all,no empires,no imperilsim,a utopia on earth,free educations,free homes so no one has to live in porverty,food,water,Humble lives,work for the good of the community for everyone eqaul,and the goverment takes care of you....

OR do you want to be a Capitalist.......where you may have a chance to become rich someday,probely not and you will be starving on the streets of new york by the time your 35,You have to pay to go to a college where they fill your head why America is the best....no health care cause your to poor,and no power because the top people like george bush and Bill gates own the whole world.

SO choose your side. Communist,or Capitalist or you can be a half half. :D

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 11:15 PM
Vietnam, to fight the "evil commies", but I think it continued was for blood money, and the US gov. didnt want us to look bad, so they kept sending out boys to die. I do oppose the war, but if i say that where i live i automatically "want the troops to die" rednecks seem to support everything Bush does, one of their own i guess. So let me get this straight, not very many of you support the Tibetan people wanting freedom? [/quote]
The Tibetan people are in a far greater position than they were, they have become far more prosperous and better educate and got rid of their oppressive feudal system. I support the Tibetan people wanting freedom, freedom from the Chinese government, I support the Chinese in that sense too, yet I think Tibet is rightfully part of China.

Mao and the Red Army were never the sort to oppress any kind of cultural or ethnic minority. I have read a number of accounts of the Chinese revolution from bourgeois historians and one thing that often stands out is willingness to respect the culture and pecularities of the various non-Han Chinese groups living in China (the Tibetans are Han-Chinese). One example is the choice of the Red Army not to defend themselves against a group of thieves who roamed one province of China in the South-West, they were a poor and uneducated ethnic minority who would steal from anyone who passed through their land. The Red Army let them steal food and weapons instead of killing them. The Red Army chose to pass through the land in small groups so that a few would be stolen from rather than going in and killing many of them.

Similarly they had rules about debts being repayed and all civilian possessions being respected so that they would never harm the many small communities they passed through. They also tried to alleviate some of the Opium addictions in various regions.

If you look on the Maoist International Movement site you can find some articles where they say genocide is acceptable if a group of people could be classed as &#39;uncivilised savages&#39;, I should imagine you find that shocking.

[Loknar]

Chairman Mao, 800,000 to 1.2 million Tibetans were killed during the first stages of the occupation. Chairman Mao, you did once tell me that communists do have a patriotic spirit, isnt it normal for tibetan communists to want independance?. I agree that the Tibetan government under the Dali Lama deserved it&#39;s destruction, but what the Chinese did afterwards is shameful. just look at Tibet now, more than half of the population are Chinese colonists, the Chinese government hates Tibetan culture and with all this colonizing going on the Tibetan culture will cease to exist.


Are you sure the Tibetans are Han? The Han are from eastern china mostly, in the west there are many minorities.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Chairman Mao, 800,000 to 1.2 million Tibetans were killed during the first stages of the occupation.

Where did you come up with that ludicrous statistic? Newsmax?

[Loknar]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 20 2004, 01:23 AM

Chairman Mao, 800,000 to 1.2 million Tibetans were killed during the first stages of the occupation.

Where did you come up with that ludicrous statistic? Newsmax?
No, it is the usual figure I read.



http://www.geocities.com/sangs_rgyas/invframe.htm

.* 1.2 million Tibetans have died as a result of the PRC&#39;s occupation.* This number is equal to approximately one-sixth the entire Tibetan population. His Holiness, the Fourteenth Dalai Lama, has been quoted in calling China&#39;s brutality a "holocaust".*






http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Tibet (scroll down to #8)

Tibet (1950 et seq.)
Chinese occupation. (For the most part, it&#39;s already been included in the numbers above.)
The most commonly cited number is 1,200,000 Tibetan deaths at the hands of the Chinese since 1950. This number appears in Our Times, in US House legislation, and at www.freetibet.org.
Courtois: 600,000 - 1,200,000
Walker, Robert: 500,000-1,000,000 (all ethnic minorities)
Rummel: 375,000 democides.
... incl 150,000 Tibetans
Porter: 100,000 to 150,000.
Eckhardt:
1950-51 War: 2,000 civ.
1956-59 Revolt: 60,000 civ. + 40,000 mil. = 100,000
Harff and Gurr: 65,000 Tibetan nationalists, landowners, Buddhists killed, 1959
Small & Singer say that China lost 40,000 soldiers in Tibet between 1956 and &#39;59.



I personally don’t believe the 1.2 million statistic, but lets drop numbers for a minute; are you saying that Mao was just &#39;so friendly&#39; with the Tibetans? Obviously there was something going on if the people-just freed from their feudalistic government-wanted to take up arms and kill the occupier.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

These statisitcs are all from biased sources.Free Tibet is bullshit.I once wasted my whole free period at school reading the propaganda put up by the Free Tibet hippies at my high school. It was all from FreeTibet.org.Thats the same organazation that tries to deny that the Lama&#39;s were oppressive. Obviously,Loknar,the people who took up arms were the feudalists,wanting to preserve their way of life. The myth that Budhism is peaceful is nonsense. These Lamas frequently beat and tortured their slaves. I mean thats just a bonus to add to the case,it wouldn&#39;t even matter if they beat them or not-they owned slaves.This alone is an atrocirty that deserves severe and stern punishment.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 20 2004, 03:49 AM
These statisitcs are all from biased sources.Free Tibet is bullshit.I once wasted my whole free period at school reading the propaganda put up by the Free Tibet hippies at my high school. It was all from FreeTibet.org.Thats the same organazation that tries to deny that the Lama&#39;s were oppressive. Obviously,Loknar,the people who took up arms were the feudalists,wanting to preserve their way of life. The myth that Budhism is peaceful is nonsense. These Lamas frequently beat and tortured their slaves. I mean thats just a bonus to add to the case,it wouldn&#39;t even matter if they beat them or not-they owned slaves.This alone is an atrocirty that deserves severe and stern punishment.
Hey i agree the freetibet a-holes are burnt out hippies, I know the Lamas were oppressive and I am well aware that Buddhists are not peaceful, hell i don’t even care that Tibet was conquered. I just contend that people wearer fighting the Chinese for a reason, less than %7 of the population actually ran things in that country yet thousands rose up against the Chinese (they did pretty well), the average resistance fighter was not a noble, most were probably killed by the Chinese anyway. I believe there were 2 reasons that the average peasant rose up against the Chinese, 1) The Dali Lama left Tibet, this probably infuriated them, 2) The Chinese at first were helpful but eventually they grew very oppressive.

I think the Chinese invasion at first was a great, it’s what they did afterwards that bothers me.


btw, not all were freetibet stats, the numbers are different for each source.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Now what great Tibetan agenda could possibly come out of a Tibetian revolution? A Buddist version of the Taliban? That right there leaves a rather bitter thought. If anything, I think the Chinese ought to aid the Nepalese fighters, even if it at least fighting for an ideology that is Chinese. It just shows that Chinese government, and most likely most of the people (I don&#39;t see volenteers rushing to aid the Nepalese in their struggles), have lost all sence of their once great revolutionary spirit.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Hey i agree the freetibet a-holes are burnt out hippies, I know the Lamas were oppressive and I am well aware that Buddhists are not peaceful, hell i don’t even care that Tibet was conquered. I just contend that people wearer fighting the Chinese for a reason, less than %7 of the population actually ran things in that country yet thousands rose up against the Chinese (they did pretty well), the average resistance fighter was not a noble, most were probably killed by the Chinese anyway. I believe there were 2 reasons that the average peasant rose up against the Chinese, 1) The Dali Lama left Tibet, this probably infuriated them, 2) The Chinese at first were helpful but eventually they grew very oppressive.

I think the Chinese invasion at first was a great, it’s what they did afterwards that bothers me.


btw, not all were freetibet stats, the numbers are different for each source.

well if you say thousands rose up, that is not much of the population of Tibet. I agee though.The Chinese leadership became increasingly oppressive after 1976.But to me,it is still better then feudalism.

[martingale]

Historian Michael Parenti refutes the propaganda lie contained in the claim of 1.2 million Tibetan deaths. What other claims from the so-called "free Tibet movement" are also lies?

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The charges made by the Dalai Lama himself about Chinese mass sterilization and forced deportation of Tibetans have remained unsupported by any evidence. Both the Dalai Lama and his advisor and youngest brother, Tendzin Choegyal, claimed that "more than 1.2 million Tibetans are dead as a result of the Chinese occupation."38 No matter how often stated, that figure is puzzling. The official 1953 census---six years before the Chinese crackdown---recorded the entire population of Tibet at 1,274,000. Other estimates varied from one to three million.39 Other census counts put the ethnic Tibetan population within the country at about two million. If the Chinese killed 1.2 million in the early 1960s then whole cities and huge portions of the countryside, indeed almost all of Tibet, would have been depopulated, transformed into a killing field dotted with death camps and mass graves---of which we have seen no evidence. The Chinese military force in Tibet was not big enough to round up, hunt down, and exterminate that many people even if it had spent all its time doing nothing else.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Comrade Ceausescu]

I love Michael Parenti.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 12:15 AM
Chairman Mao, 800,000 to 1.2 million Tibetans were killed during the first stages of the occupation. Chairman Mao, you did once tell me that communists do have a patriotic spirit, isnt it normal for tibetan communists to want independance?. I agree that the Tibetan government under the Dali Lama deserved it&#39;s destruction, but what the Chinese did afterwards is shameful. just look at Tibet now, more than half of the population are Chinese colonists, the Chinese government hates Tibetan culture and with all this colonizing going on the Tibetan culture will cease to exist.


Are you sure the Tibetans are Han? The Han are from eastern china mostly, in the west there are many minorities.
Your right to some extent. But looking at it logically, China regarded Tibet as part of China, that is the reason they took it over, not because they wanted to exploit it. It was inevitable that Tibet would be taken. They should have taken their other territories too, they were undoubtedly their, Hong Kong, Macao and to some extent Taiwan.

I don&#39;t know how many Han-Chinese are in Tibet, but it is a significant number. I don&#39;t agree that the Chinese have destroyed Tibetan culture either.

[Mano Dayak]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 03:31 AM
I was visiting Stanford University this summer, and I saw a poster that urged for Jiang Zemin to be prosecuted as a war criminal for "crimes in Tibet." What do you think about the whole Tibet issue, and also what is your take on the Falun Gong issue?

Just some questions.
Well...uh...

I think that the Chinese must be completely mad. Tibet is not a part of their country. I can&#39;t understand how they were able to do such a terrible nonsense. Tell me, what has Chinese culture to do with Tibetan, for example? And why did the Chinese do it?