The possibility of making Detroit into a stateless community [Archive]

Soomie

10th August 2013, 15:45

I'm not sure if this has been posted on here already, or if anyone has heard about it yet, but I thought I would share it just in case. I have been following the situation in Detroit since earlier this year when I first learned about it. I would have liked to have known about it sooner, but unfortunately it's one of those situations that the media doesn't want anyone to hear or know about (imo). A few days ago, I came upon an article about a group of anarchists who are going into Detroit and buying property in the hopes that they can begin a stateless community up there. I think this is a great idea, but I don't know how far it has the chance of getting. Even if they stuck with the idea and fully developed it, I don't think that the higher ups would appreciate something like that taking wing so close to home (just look how made they were about Cuba when it had its revolution). Anyway, I'm wondering what everyone else thinks of this idea and its possibility of becoming a reality. It would be a great thing to realize the first real possibility of a large, stateless community in the US in our lifetime.

http://thestateweekly.com/with-detroits-bankruptcy-anarchists-have-begun-project-free-detroit-starting-a-community-2/

nizan

10th August 2013, 15:46

Revolution won't be bought, nor will it have a deed.

Popular Front of Judea

10th August 2013, 20:08

If I was younger and unattached I would be heading for Detroit. No one will give two shits about you and your friends being anarchists -- if you bring up and maintain your houses and tear down the abandoned ones in the neighborhood. You like direct action? Detroit is the place to be.

Worry about being a threat to the powers that be when that day comes. I would worry more at this time of being a threat to the drug trade.

You do realize that 'The State Weekly' epouses 'market anarchism'? I imagine there are some anarchists on this forum that would like to have a few words with you.

Here's a taste of what passes for analysis in TSW: How to Help Fast-Food Workers (http://thestateweekly.com/how-to-help-fast-food-workers/)

The Douche

10th August 2013, 20:12

I'll say what I said when I saw this on tumblr the other day:

I can't wait to see the @ news communique about this neighborhood getting attacked.

Glitchcraft

10th August 2013, 21:14

"Revolution won't be bought, nor will it have a deed. "
Very true.

buying up property in Detroit to "save" it is not a revolutionary act. I would suspect many of the anarchists are just wealthy hipsters. The real way to revolt or make a stand or whatever, would be to have the workers of Detroit through a series of strikes and occupations work together in putting the city into the hands of the working class rather than just having a few wealthy anarchists hold on to the deed. That almost seems far worse than the single party system or vanguard idea that anarchists are always raging against. I don't understand Anarchists that much, they seem to have very little continuity. But isn't owning the peoples land kind of Anti people? Isn't owning the public property a fucked up idea? Please elaborate on the Anarchist ideology that suggests that we can buy the state away from the ruling class. I'd much like to know. Is it Bakunin or Proudhon, is this a Chomsky thing?

We need a workers revolution not a wealthy anarchists one.

Popular Front of Judea

11th August 2013, 00:10

It's a Murray Rothbard kind of thang ...

Please elaborate on the Anarchist ideology that suggests that we can buy the state away from the ruling class. I'd much like to know. Is it Bakunin or Proudhon, is this a Chomsky thing?

Fred

11th August 2013, 00:44

The concept of a "stateless" city, in the midst of the USA is simply not a possibility. It harks back to the pre-Marx Utopian Socialists like Owen. It is idealism, pure and simple. Even if they are able to achieve some kind of self-sustaining city/commune -- they would exist in a sea of capitalism -- and they would lack the armed force to protect themselves from takeover. You can't build socialism in one country, much less one shattered and impoverished city.

a_wild_MAGIKARP

11th August 2013, 01:44

If you look at the facebook page for "Free Detroit", it looks like they're anarcho-capitalists.

Jimmie Higgins

11th August 2013, 01:54

With much of the city in disarray and literally moving away, the cost of living has gone down dramatically with housing prices in some cases reaching only a single dollar. Taking advantage of the opportunity to cash in on cashless houses, Michigan market-anarchists from the “Michigan Peace and Liberty Coalition” are coming together to put “theory into reality” when it comes to free markets. The group has deemed the project “Free Detroit” and they mean business, literally.

In their plans, coalition members believe they’ll be purchasing an estimated five blocks of property, whether it is the individual who pays for the house and lives there or someone who buys it merely to invest in the idea. Katie Testa, an active member in MPLC and participant in Free Detroit, contacted The State Weekly, telling us that there’s been a tremendous amount of support towards the project. Testa also said many entrepreneurial spirits are joining in on the project, as they see Free Detroit as a way to explore anarchy.

If by a stateless city, one in which public services have been eliminated when it comes to helping the poor... Then yes it's possible.

What's described in the article is just gentrification with a vague ideological cloak. White entrepreneurs taking advantage of destroyed working class communities isn't really the kind of statelessness I'd hope for.

Consistent.Surprise

11th August 2013, 02:57

As a resident of Detroit, most folks don't get what is going on in it: the city has already been selling off parcels. What is happening with this is a form of a Trail of Tears with our poor population; will this idea displace residents? Where does this group think they can get homes for $1? They don't understand how the housing situation works with these homes. They are auctioned. A person pays the back taxes (10's of thousands of dollars) & a fee for purchasing. Also, no blocks in Detroit are 100% up for auction.

A group of people buying buildings to "better the city" aren't doing the city any good. We're bankrupt. If people said lets start up a fund for the pensioners, yes. Otherwise it's just the same "saving a city" & not really helping the people. Those are what need saving.

I'm going to be blunt: if you don't really research what's happening in my city, don't give your advice. Discuss trying to aid, yes, but this "coalition" isn't doing anything the gentrifiers haven't already started doing.

ckaihatsu

11th August 2013, 18:58

Sheerly academically, what *I'd* be most interested in seeing is how such a co-op would handle *monetary valuations* -- consider that the main reward of conquest is being able to issue currency, and that a rulership is able to control that means of valuation as it likes, to certain extents.

Would this nascent co-op really be able to provide internal economic valuations of its own, or would it remain hitched to the U.S. dollar, with all that that implies around imploded-Detroit -- ?

ckaihatsu

11th August 2013, 19:09

Here's a taste of what passes for analysis in TSW: How to Help Fast-Food Workers (http://thestateweekly.com/how-to-help-fast-food-workers/)

Truly a gem -- after putting forth *this* assertion...

What workers need is greater bargaining power, and that comes primarily from having options. Unfortunately, the corporate state [...] closes off options.

...the conclusion *isn't* for promoting collective bargaining and union rights, and/or government subsidies for wages, but rather *this* flippant postulate from the likes of ownership:

[G]iven the price of fast food, workers can’t possibly produce $100 worth of value for their employers in an hour.

(Yeesh!)

A Revolutionary Tool

11th August 2013, 19:50

Wow fast food workers can't create $100 worth of value in an hour haha, my McDonalds I worked at had hours where we made more than $1,000.

khad

11th August 2013, 22:20

With much of the city in disarray and literally moving away, the cost of living has gone down dramatically with housing prices in some cases reaching only a single dollar. Taking advantage of the opportunity to cash in on cashless houses, Michigan market-anarchists from the “Michigan Peace and Liberty Coalition” are coming together to put “theory into reality” when it comes to free markets. The group has deemed the project “Free Detroit” and they mean business, literally.

In their plans, coalition members believe they’ll be purchasing an estimated five blocks of property, whether it is the individual who pays for the house and lives there or someone who buys it merely to invest in the idea. Katie Testa, an active member in MPLC and participant in Free Detroit, contacted The State Weekly, telling us that there’s been a tremendous amount of support towards the project. Testa also said many entrepreneurial spirits are joining in on the project, as they see Free Detroit as a way to explore anarchy.Market Anarchist Entrepreneurs?

This thread is going to the OI.

From the article comments:

Wait, never mind. I accidentally skipped the first paragraph. I generally like the idea still, but definitely turned off by the amount of posts about Mises on their Facebook page.

Next time, please exercise the minimal amount of effort needed to take in the main points of whatever article you're posting. You'll be warned for posting off-topic again.

Jimmie Higgins

12th August 2013, 08:47

As much as my initial reaction to this story was knee-jerk, I think we can't just be as dismissive in real life, but need to explain why such schemes and the politics around it are a dead-end. I think the actual ideologues of some of these ideas are pretty small and marginal, but on the other hand I think the weakness of collective class strategies in the US also gives these ideas a larger currency among people who are "progressives/Occupy-types" and not attracted to the ideology of this, but are trying to find ways to counter the ways our lived are made uncertain because of the economy and the recession-effects more specifically.

I'd recommend the book "No Local" which critiques both pro and anti-market schemes for local attempts to change much larger economic and social trends (through induvidual or small group experiements).

liberlict

13th August 2013, 03:31

There are parts of Detroit that are already relatively stateless. Just complete war-zones where the police are afraid to go.

Consistent.Surprise

13th August 2013, 03:45

There are parts of Detroit that are already relatively stateless. Just complete war-zones where the police are afraid to go.

Wow. Way to buy into the conservative views spewed across the media.

There aren't "war zones" here. There is gang tension & violence but is that really different in any city? Visit. Be specific about these war zones. What neighborhoods? Pick one of them.

The police aren't afraid! They SHOOT children & secure the mayor with 20 some officers (I think that's right. It's being brought down to 6 soon). They are actually in the worse neighborhoods but to eat. To clarify: they aren't afraid, but they are hungry

liberlict

13th August 2013, 08:05

Wow. Way to buy into the conservative views spewed across the media.

There aren't "war zones" here. There is gang tension & violence but is that really different in any city? Visit. Be specific about these war zones. What neighborhoods? Pick one of them.

The police aren't afraid! They SHOOT children & secure the mayor with 20 some officers (I think that's right. It's being brought down to 6 soon). They are actually in the worse neighborhoods but to eat. To clarify: they aren't afraid, but they are hungry

You're right, I'm just going on hearsay, I have never been to Detroit so I should probably keep my mouth shut. Sorry.

That is what I've been told though, by people who live there.

Police shoot children? really? And the police are hungry? Sorry if I didn't get you.

BIXX

13th August 2013, 13:44

Police shoot children? really?

This shouldn't be news to you...

Consistent.Surprise

13th August 2013, 14:29

You're right, I'm just going on hearsay, I have never been to Detroit so I should probably keep my mouth shut. Sorry.

That is what I've been told though, by people who live there.

Police shoot children? really? And the police are hungry? Sorry if I didn't get you.

Are they inside city limits? Those that you know.

Aiyana Jones. 7 years old. Took 5 years for the trial. Mistrial. A kid. An innocent bystander who became the target IMO

The police cruisers are spotted near food places. Thus, they are hungry. SW side, pop in for a few tacos. My area for fish & chips.

Jimmie Higgins

13th August 2013, 14:41

Police shoot children? really?Generally not intentially, but as a natural consaquence of the way policing is done in the US. And in at least one high-profile case in Detroit as a consaquence of the city, police force, and TV producers wanting to make cop-work look glamerous and exciting:

http://www.freep.com/article/20130618/NEWS01/306180064/Weekley-Aiyana-Stanley-Jones-trial

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/29/joseph-weekly-trial-detroit-aiyana-stanley-jones_n_3352351.html

Cops raided a house Iraq-occupation-style and threw a flash-bang grenede inside and, even giving the police the benifit of the doubt, in the confusion a cop shot a little kid.

The loud, smoky device used in the Detroit raid is intended to startle and confuse people as officers swarm a scene. But some critics of the police department's tactics believe it was used in the fatal raid simply to satisfy a crew from "The First 48," a show that focuses on the crucial early stages of homicide investigations.

"This was essentially a military assault on a private dwelling," said Ron Scott, spokesman for a watchdog group, Detroit Coalition Against Police Brutality. "I think the administration of the police department wanted to show Detroit was tough on crime and show something exciting for television.
...
Police have said his gun accidentally discharged after he confronted or collided with Aiyana's grandmother. A bullet struck and killed Aiyana, one of four children inside.

Blocks away from my appartment, someone in reproted hearing a gunshot; the cops arrived at the house the sound was heard from, no one responded at the door, so they threw in a smoke-bomb or something and then came in guns-blazing... shooting an old guy who had already comitted suicide. It's better just to shoot for the cops... if you make a mistake, sure someone dies or is injured seriously, but the courts, police department, media, and city government will all try and make the mistake disappear.

Cops generally don't intentionally try and shoot small children on a regular basis... but they do intentially humiliate, harass, and beat them on a regular basis.

UdBxCwGxo94

liberlict

14th August 2013, 12:51

Generally not intentially, but as a natural consaquence of the way policing is done in the US. And in at least one high-profile case in Detroit as a consaquence of the city, police force, and TV producers wanting to make cop-work look glamerous and exciting:

http://www.freep.com/article/20130618/NEWS01/306180064/Weekley-Aiyana-Stanley-Jones-trial

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/29/joseph-weekly-trial-detroit-aiyana-stanley-jones_n_3352351.html

Cops raided a house Iraq-occupation-style and threw a flash-bang grenede inside and, even giving the police the benifit of the doubt, in the confusion a cop shot a little kid.

Blocks away from my appartment, someone in reproted hearing a gunshot; the cops arrived at the house the sound was heard from, no one responded at the door, so they threw in a smoke-bomb or something and then came in guns-blazing... shooting an old guy who had already comitted suicide. It's better just to shoot for the cops... if you make a mistake, sure someone dies or is injured seriously, but the courts, police department, media, and city government will all try and make the mistake disappear.

Cops generally don't intentionally try and shoot small children on a regular basis... but they do intentially humiliate, harass, and beat them on a regular basis.

UdBxCwGxo94

lord. That's horrible. And some of the racist comments on that article make me want to give up on humanity.

liberlict

14th August 2013, 12:54

Are they inside city limits? Those that you know.

Aiyana Jones. 7 years old. Took 5 years for the trial. Mistrial. A kid. An innocent bystander who became the target IMO

The police cruisers are spotted near food places. Thus, they are hungry. SW side, pop in for a few tacos. My area for fish & chips.

Nobody I really know. Just people on a DJ forum that I post on..

Jimmie Higgins

14th August 2013, 13:11

lord. That's horrible. And some of the racist comments on that article make me want to give up on humanity.Don't give up on us but yeah, definately give up on looking at comments on Youtube if race is even tangentially a subject in the video... it's like racist troll katnip.

Consistent.Surprise

14th August 2013, 13:46

lord. That's horrible. And some of the racist comments on that article make me want to give up on humanity.

Yeah, that's pretty much the status quo for comments for our online papers & the local stations. I think a handful are trolls but the looks I get as a white woman who doesn't live near downtown? Shocking.

Some folks say to build a wall around the city & just basically let the 700k fight to their deaths or starve. Some folks come in and help (a lawn mower gang cuts the grass at a different park each week).

The city is loved by the stereotypical suburbanite for some great restaurants, the sports venues, festivals (DEMF), *some* museums, & the casinos. The atypical ones come in and shop our open air market, volunteer, work, Belle Isle (read comments attached to some of those articles. Makes me beyond angry), some even move here to raise a family.

Now, back to the original topic: these kids (which I'm betting they're in their early to mid 20's) aren't thinking of how to get the people in a better place but how to make Detroit an example of a stateless entity, which isn't going to happen with outsiders. Detroiters have become very cautious of people trying to come in & "fix" us. I won't lie that this city is very segregated & getting folks to care about what's happening in their city is years in the making; apathy is everywhere here about city government because these folks are more worried about food & shelter, & how they will get their children to school & themselves to work.

I'm interested to see what happens with this group. I might just point & laugh. I might cringe as I see them try & fail. I hope, though, that they come in, see the issues, don't run & hide, and actually DO something but the way they are going about it makes me just see them the same way I see the gentrifiers: not really helping the problem.

Edit: since there is the girls v young women/women thread going on. I used kids because I find their ideas naive, not because they aren't technically men & women.

Ocean Seal

14th August 2013, 15:09

Y'all be getting hella high on that lolbertarian shit

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1016983_409337265842543_354313509_n.jpg

Ocean Seal

14th August 2013, 15:11

Oh this too
https://sphotos-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1001422_415855365190733_1771912074_n.jpg

Consistent.Surprise

14th August 2013, 15:19

Oh this too
https://sphotos-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1001422_415855365190733_1771912074_n.jpg

Are you enjoying scanning their page? I'm seeing a train wreck. I'm thinking of popping some corn & sitting atop a building or a freeway island & just watching.

Decolonize The Left

14th August 2013, 16:46

Are you enjoying scanning their page? I'm seeing a train wreck. I'm thinking of popping some corn & sitting atop a building or a freeway island & just watching.

I'm sorry dbags are going to invade your city. This is actually very common and happened most recently in Oakland. It was the same situation as Detroit as Oakland wasn't bankrupt but it was the general idea of white flight and 'saving' and 'improvement.' I would look at it humorously - you know it isn't going to end well so why not watch some wealthy white folks fail for a while?

Glitchcraft

14th August 2013, 17:14

Just listened to their podcast interview on NY Liberty Radio a link on their facebook.

What a bunch of stupid hippies. They are openly and blatantly pro capitalist. The worst kind of hippies.

They are all about agorism. They basically read the wikipedia page on agorism to explain themselves.

They say they want to break away from the economy using counter economics. Building an economy outside the government structure. I guess (according to them) that's going with the barter system, the bit coin or using gold and silver instead of Federal reserve money. When asked about people on welfare (that's federal) they dodge the question and just talk about how inflation hurts welfare recipients. They don't actually address how these wealthy anarchists are going to feed the hungry other than quickly mentioning community gardens and things like alternative methods like agorism. just talking circles.
They talk about $1 houses and the great entrepreneurial opportunities. The awesome deals on land and presumably on labour. The $1 house rumour has been exposed as false, so who are they talking too.

They cite Keynes and give bad metaphors for the economy. They ramble about volunteerism and bike co-ops and limitless possibilities.

When talking about crime in Detroit they actually plug a privately owned security service called Threat Management. Seriously...Threat Management, how fucked up does that sound. They stress community involvement and individual efforts as well but go on and on about how this private security firm is nicer than the regular cops. They are servicing paying customers after all. They say since Threat Management is paid for voluntarily, they will not oppress their customers like the cops do.
Wtf! Nice logic.

So you can buy your way out of police oppression , how is this different? So not only do these rich anarchists want to buy the city and make it stateless, they advocate paying 3rd party police in effect purchasing their own state apparatus. Treacherous Idea I think. Do even wealthier anarchists buy Blackwater?

It almost sounds like reverse Stalinism or something.

They are also saying that Chicago and other cities are next and after that whole states will go bankrupt. I suppose that's when they take over with their community gardens to feed the poor and their privately funded police force. I have no idea who buys this crap.

Direct Quote:
"The possibilities are limitless, it's a question of who has the entrepreneurial spirit and who can see the opportunity and seize it"

These people are not just other lefties with bad politics these people are wealthy liberal landlords and petite bourgeois, literally the enemy. They will have their wealth expropriated along with the rest of the capitalists. They will be hung by the hemp rope we buy from them.

Consistent.Surprise

14th August 2013, 17:20

Their page is stating they are "Anarcho-Capitalists". In my mind: gentrifiers who want to seem politically for the people.

Glitchcraft

14th August 2013, 17:38

Their page is stating they are "Anarcho-Capitalists". In my mind: gentrifiers who want to seem politically for the people.

it just goes to show you can be an Anarcho-Anything. Not all anarchists are bad people but a lot of these greenie types are the worst sort of opportunists. I mean how are you going to go with Keynesian economics? C'mon grow up. Read a book or something.

liberlict

15th August 2013, 18:16

Consistent.Surprise

15th August 2013, 19:29

If I was a communist Detroit or any socially fucked place like that would be the last place I'd be hoping for communists to take over. Gangster Disciples and all the rest of the hardcore shit-heads are not interested in any kind of greater good. Products of the capitalism system they may be, it doesn't change the fact they would be hopeless revolutionaries.

I'd like to see socialism trialed in an a rich secular state like Sweeden.

I think people want to try it now because we've hit dictatorship with having an EM. Instead we have Jerry Vile being a fantastically infuriating artist, pissing off the local government.

http://www2.metrotimes.com/images/motorcityoutofbiz.jpg

http://www.freep.com/article/20130814/ENT05/308140144/Jerry-Vile-Detroit-Bankruptcy-Sale

liberlict

19th August 2013, 11:36

I think people want to try it now because we've hit dictatorship with having an EM. Instead we have Jerry Vile being a fantastically infuriating artist, pissing off the local government.

http://www2.metrotimes.com/images/motorcityoutofbiz.jpg

http://www.freep.com/article/20130814/ENT05/308140144/Jerry-Vile-Detroit-Bankruptcy-Sale

Sorry, what is "EM"?

Consistent.Surprise

19th August 2013, 16:53

Sorry, what is "EM"?

EM stands for Emergency Manager. Or "financial puppet with Snyder's hand up it's ass dictating over city in receivership or school system". This one targets Orr, the EM of Detroit

BIXX

19th August 2013, 21:30

If I was a communist Detroit or any socially fucked place like that would be the last place I'd be hoping for communists to take over. Gangster Disciples and all the rest of the hardcore shit-heads are not interested in any kind of greater good. Products of the capitalism system they may be, it doesn't change the fact they would be hopeless revolutionaries.

I'd like to see socialism trialed in an a rich secular state like Sweeden.

The problem with this is that these people aren't horrible people who are just selfish like you seem to think. They're committing crimes because they are need.

On a more pressing matter, I wonder if we should resist the "liberate Detroit" movement, and put forth our own?

Consistent.Surprise

19th August 2013, 21:50

The problem with this is that these people aren't horrible people who are just selfish like you seem to think. They're committing crimes because they are need.

On a more pressing matter, I wonder if we should resist the "liberate Detroit" movement, and put forth our own?

No, they aren't horrible but damn I think they are stupid. Their site is now talking about creating a community when guess what? Most of our neighborhoods are communities. I live in an area that is a 5 neighborhood community.

As for creating something in the city that would possibly create & educate about how many here are working class & exploited, well, we run into the fact that (from all I can find) we have ISO & SEP chapters.

I would say now is the time to get folks thinking but the big goal to tackle isn't local politics, but those at the state level. I can't see it happening. Not yet.

BIXX

19th August 2013, 23:27

No, they aren't horrible but damn I think they are stupid. Their site is now talking about creating a community when guess what? Most of our neighborhoods are communities. I live in an area that is a 5 neighborhood community.

As for creating something in the city that would possibly create & educate about how many here are working class & exploited, well, we run into the fact that (from all I can find) we have ISO & SEP chapters.

I would say now is the time to get folks thinking but the big goal to tackle isn't local politics, but those at the state level. I can't see it happening. Not yet.

I wasn't referring to the anarcho-capitalists, I personally think they're vile.

Liberlict was saying that the residents of Detroit are selfish, incompetent assholes, which I disagree with.