"Presidentialism" at SYRIZA founding congress?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Over a year ago, I asked why SYRIZA and the Greek left can't at least pressure guests to stand for the party leader (http://www.revleft.com/vb/syriza-demand-guests-t171776/index.html).

At SYRIZA's founding congress, the then-soon-to-be-elected party president Alexis Tsipras was "applauded every time he went up to the podium, before he had even begun to speak (http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article3046)," surviving personal attacks by pro-coalition (read: anti-party) figure Manolis Glezos, with his remarks against a so-called "presidentialist" party.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Gosh.

[The Feral Underclass]

I am confused by this thread.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

ah yes I remember - last year DNZ made a thread suggesting SYRIZA should follow Golden Dawn in treating their leader like a Fuhrer. You know, establishing a cult, fawning around him etc.

The usual crap. :rolleyes:

[The Feral Underclass]

So are we being critical or supporting of SYRIZA?

[Delenda Carthago]

So are we being critical or supporting of SYRIZA?
It depends. Are you a friend of Obama?

[Sasha]

It depends. Are you a friend of Obama?

Anti-imp stupidity in one sentence, of all the reasons someone, esp a greek, could be opposed to syriza.... :rolleyes:

[The Feral Underclass]

It depends. Are you a friend of Obama?

He wouldn't return my phone calls.

[Delenda Carthago]

He wouldn't return my phone calls.
Then its probably not a good idea to support his greek copycat.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The move towards "presidentialism" in Syriza is merely a way to further muzzle its left and more revolutionary elements. Syriza is well on its way towards becoming the next PASOK. Its very sad because the Greek working class desperately needs revolutionary leadership.

[Jimmie Higgins]

He wouldn't return my phone calls.I read on the World Socialist Web Site that he was too busy talking to the ISO at the time.

Edit: But seriously, maybe it would help if the arguments of pro-party and pro-coalition could be summarized, there might be some interesting discussion on this question. What are the practical implications - the arguments I'm familiar with are along the lines of Lenina's post above. I see risks for the left wing and risks if a single president is pressured from the ruling class, but I don't quite understand how coalition in less effective for the left and furthering working class resistance in this case.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The move towards "presidentialism" in Syriza is merely a way to further muzzle its left and more revolutionary elements. Syriza is well on its way towards becoming the next PASOK. Its very sad because the Greek working class desperately needs revolutionary leadership.


I read on the World Socialist Web Site that he was too busy talking to the ISO at the time.

Edit: But seriously, maybe it would help if the arguments of pro-party and pro-coalition could be summarized, there might be some interesting discussion on this question. What are the practical implications - the arguments I'm familiar with are along the lines of Lenina's post above. I see risks for the left wing and risks if a single president is pressured from the ruling class, but I don't quite understand how coalition in less effective for the left and furthering working class resistance in this case.

More politically, although perhaps better discussed in Politics, "pro-party" means supporting the current process that led to SYRIZA becoming a unitary political party. "Pro-coalition" means supporting the status quo before this process, when SYRIZA was literally the Coalition of the Radical/Alternative Left, and when various sects could do their own thing while chipping into the main umbrella group.

Actual comrades in SYRIZA would have pushed for further-left programs and platforms, but would have supported a unified party apparatus to sanction and coordinate the solidarity networks currently in place (like branch activist-organized soup kitchens still not sanctioned by the SYRIZA apparatus). When the Lassalleans and Eisenachers united in 1875 Gotha, they didn't unite into a mere coalition or united front.


You know, establishing a cult, fawning around him etc.

The usual crap. :rolleyes:

Is agitation inherently undemocratic? (http://www.revleft.com/vb/agitation-inherently-undemocratici-t176229/index.html)

[Lenina Rosenweg]

When the Lassalleans and Eisenachers united in 1875 Gotha, they didn't unite into a mere coalition or united front.

and wasn't Marx a bit snarky about this in Critique of the Gotha Program? Didn't the united SDP at its beginning lean too far towards reformism?

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Anti-imp stupidity in one sentence, of all the reasons someone, esp a greek, could be opposed to syriza.... :rolleyes:

Erm, no, It's not "anti imp" stupidity to think that any one who is friends of a man who presides over the whole sale slaugther of brown people is not a friend of the working class. No ifs ands or buts.

Seriously, its kinda basic.

[Sasha]

Except that even the worst rightwing syriza is a radical commie compared to Obama, they have nothing in common, they have nothing to do with each other, its just a sectarian digg pulled out of thin air...

I'm no fan of syriza, let alone this party route but one could just as easy accuse the KKE to be "like Obama" because he is supported by the CPUSA. It's both bullshit.

[Delenda Carthago]

For anyone thats not an anarchist genius, the Obama reference was due to the fact that we talk on the same "left" illusions, with the same exactly content: the service of the needs of the Capital.

Anything more is just a waste of energy.

[Sasha]

Says the loyal opposition...

[Le Socialiste]

Alexis Tsipras and the centrist, reformist-minded Synaspismos make up the majority of SYRIZA, this is true. Efforts have been made of late to, as Lenina put it, "muzzle" the left and revolutionary elements of the party. (Ironically, this effort to marginalize dissent has had the opposite effect, as the emergence of the Left Platform has shown.)

The Left Platform, which has counterposed itself against the organization's right-wing, has managed to force this section of the party to concede or retreat on parts of its "unity" program - aspects of which would have undoubtedly been used to quell any organized internal dissent. And it's clear this faction has won over a sizable minority within the party to its arguments against any and all attempts to pressure or moderate SYRIZA in a rightward direction.

While it has yet to win over a majority of members (many of whom are unaffiliated with any of the current groups that make up the organization), the opportunity remains for the more revolutionary elements of the party to effectively combat moves toward a "right turn," or "realistic" interpretation of SYRIZA's stated aims. Coming out of the last Congress, the 'majority camp' has successfully defeated attempts to reword SYRIZA's program in a manner that is more explicitly radical, but has been forced on the defensive on matters revolving around the marginalization of the opposition - at least temporarily.

Panos Petrou, a member of Internationalist Workers Left (DEA), had this to say about the present composition of the organization (bolded emphasis mine):


On the one hand, we saw some serious efforts toward transforming SYRIZA into another type of party, with less radical and political positions and less tolerance for debate and discussion. The aggressive attitude of the leadership toward the Left Platform; the emergence of a bloc of delegates prepared to support the leadership no matter what; and the rhetoric about facing an "emergency situation" which requires setting aside left-wing principles are worrying signs.

On the other hand, we also witnessed what can only be described as a rebellion against the prospect of such a transformation. The defeats and retreats of the majority camp on a number of issues; the significant increase of the percentage of votes for the Left Platform, particularly in the context of the systematic effort to marginalize it; the fact that the majority camp isn't as homogenous as it once appeared--all of this proves that the battle over the direction of SYRIZA isn't over.

[TheEmancipator]

I can't understand the negativity surrounding Syriza on this board. Trust the tribalistic Left to shoot itself in the foot. :rolleyes:

Tzipras, while pursuing a reformist agenda (which does not make him some evil bourgeois counter-revolutionary) is laying the foundations for widespread change in the way the factors of production are distributed, and how the modern workplace could work. I don't care if he is a narcissist, as Zizek says most communists are.

I think we should back him, and his party that composes numerous revolutionar leftists like yourselves, and abandon this nostalgic love for the KKE because they like to wave Stalin portraits and piss off Golden Dawn. The KKE has become a caricature of itself rather than a viable electable body, which is what Syriza has somehow managed.

[Le Socialiste]

I can't understand the negativity surrounding Syriza on this board. Trust the tribalistic Left to shoot itself in the foot. :rolleyes:

Tzipras, while pursuing a reformist agenda (which does not make him some evil bourgeois counter-revolutionary) is laying the foundations for widespread change in the way the factors of production are distributed, and how the modern workplace could work. I don't care if he is a narcissist, as Zizek says most communists are.

I think we should back him, and his party that composes numerous revolutionar leftists like yourselves, and abandon this nostalgic love for the KKE because they like to wave Stalin portraits and piss off Golden Dawn. The KKE has become a caricature of itself rather than a viable electable body, which is what Syriza has somehow managed.

While I agree with you in part (specifically on the issue of sectarianism and infighting amongst the revolutionary left), you're wrong on the matter of whether support for SYRIZA must also entail backing Tsipras and those more inclined toward moderation. The majority camp has placed great emphasis of late on a 'realistic' appraisal of the party's place in the country's political landscape. It's not a matter of choosing between support for this section of the party or the KKE - though the Left Platform does call for greater collaboration with the Communists and ANTARSYA. To frame the issue in such a way is to ignore the possibility of opposing this rightward turn (and it is) while simultaneously backing the formation of the Left Platform, which contains the radical and revolutionary elements you spoke of earlier.

[TheEmancipator]

While I agree with you in part (specifically on the issue of sectarianism and infighting amongst the revolutionary left), you're wrong on the matter of whether support for SYRIZA must also entail backing Tsipras and those more inclined toward moderation. The majority camp has placed great emphasis of late on a 'realistic' appraisal of the party's place in the country's political landscape. It's not a matter of choosing between support for this section of the party or the KKE - though the Left Platform does call for greater collaboration with the Communists and ANTARSYA. To frame the issue in such a way is to ignore the possibility of opposing this rightward turn (and it is) while simultaneously backing the formation of the Left Platform, which contains the radical and revolutionary elements you spoke of earlier.

I think this is my key point here. Even if Tzipras and his faction is just becoming a replacement of the social democratic party in Greece, my impression is that there are enough revolutionary factions in Syriza for their existence and influence to persist within the movement. I really don't see Tzipras' actions as some kind of coup d'etat. I see them more as an efficient way to get into power as quickly as possible which is what Tzipras probably wants the most.

If Syriza were to enter in government (and I think the bourgeois lies have already done a great deal to stop this happening) I wouldn't expect some kind USSR-like global revolutionary platform from their part, and i would hope not either. Syriza have already made it very clear that they will take a somewhat early Blairite position of doing what the (Greek) people want and not what the various elements of the party want. That is, the reduction of the dehumanising austerity measures, which I think most of our members condemn. If they do solve this issue then I think it will reestablish credibility in the Left and permit us to start talking about overthrowing bourgeois regimes.

[Philosophos]

OK here's the deal: @TheEmancipator It's Tsipras not Tzipras no hard feelings though :grin:

OK here's the real deal. I've talked with some people that belong to SYRIZA (the one is a big member too) and they tolded me some things. They think that the party will not turn to social-democratic otherwise it will lose every single voter that it has especially the real supporters not the ones that want to go out of the crisis. It doesn't mean that there is no such possibility, but they believe it's kinda difficult. I'm also sceptical on this matter especially now that I saw that people who belong to the party also seem to be sceptical.

On the other hand SYRIZA is trying to create a big mass working movement. Even if SYRIZA fails to bring socialism, even start socialism they want to create worker fronts, something that will organise the left, something that will organise workers and make them understand that socialism in a one way etc. I know I will get criticised for supporting SYRIZA on this one but at least they are trying to do something and even look at the future.

In addition SYRIZA is somehow contradictive. It was created by the most right-winged left party Synaspismos and it tries to create a revolution (or it seems so). There is lots of inside fighting, the parties don't want to give up on their parties individuality, most of them don't clarify that what they say is their opinion and not the parties main line etc.

All in all I'm being critical to SYRIZA, but I also want to give the party some time, they might do something good here. I seriously doupt it, but what the hell at least they are trying to do something.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

I think we should back him, and his party that composes numerous revolutionar leftists like yourselves, and abandon this nostalgic love for the KKE because they like to wave Stalin portraits and piss off Golden Dawn. The KKE has become a caricature of itself rather than a viable electable body, which is what Syriza has somehow managed.

No, we back the KKE and absolutly reject the social democrats because the KKE has the devotion to armed revolution in its programmic documents. They are a revolutionary party, Syriza is a left social democrat formation in the process of degenerating into a right social democrat party. There's no point in fighting for the "left" of Syriza when actual revolutionaries exist. And who cares about a viable electable body? They bloody refused political power if it involved sharing seats with social democrats, even though doing so caused them to lose seats. That's how revolutionary parties operate, not with the left-right bait and switch routine that the tricksters of the Syriza employ. And let's not forget the disgraceful cooperation with the ultra-nationalist right that those scondrels have engaged themselves with.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/04/04/srza-a04.html

So it's quite clear, these people are filthy social democrats. No better than the French Socialist Party or the French Communist Party, in fact I'd say that the French Eurocommunists are better, at least they don't stoop to the level of cooperating with the fash

[Sasha]

KKE is for armed revolution for brown people, for Greeks they are about protecting their comfertable plush seats in parliament in deals struck with the cops, covering up junta crimes against their own base and handing over left wing radicals to the cops. They are worse class traitors than syriza..

Edit: and PAME allowed the actual fash, even neo-nazis of GD to speech and propagandise at one of their pickets, so yeah, there is that too...

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

KKE is for armed revolution for brown people, for Greeks they are about protecting their comfertable plush seats in parliament in deals struck with the cops, covering up junta crimes against their own base and handing over left wing radicals to the cops. They are worse class traitors than syriza..

Edit: and PAME allowed the actual fash, even neo-nazis of GD to speech and propagandise at one of their pickets, so yeah, there is that too...

The rest of this deserves a response, and I admit that I self criticize on this basis and respect that there is more to your post than this. But this remark:


KKE is for armed revolution for brown people

Is flat out, racism.


for Greeks they are about protecting their comfortable plush seats in parliament

If that were true, they would have entered in a coalition with the social democrats, indeed their maintenance of class independence over seats in parliament is an admirable stand by them.

[TheEmancipator]

No, we back the KKE and absolutly reject the social democrats because the KKE has the devotion to armed revolution in its programmic documents. They are a revolutionary party, Syriza is a left social democrat formation in the process of degenerating into a right social democrat party. There's no point in fighting for the "left" of Syriza when actual revolutionaries exist. And who cares about a viable electable body? They bloody refused political power if it involved sharing seats with social democrats, even though doing so caused them to lose seats. That's how revolutionary parties operate, not with the left-right bait and switch routine that the tricksters of the Syriza employ. And let's not forget the disgraceful cooperation with the ultra-nationalist right that those scondrels have engaged themselves with.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/04/04/srza-a04.html

So it's quite clear, these people are filthy social democrats. No better than the French Socialist Party or the French Communist Party, in fact I'd say that the French Eurocommunists are better, at least they don't stoop to the level of cooperating with the fash

I was not aware of this pact, and I find it utterly despicable if you ask me, but to play the Devil's advocate, (and again, Tsipras is not a bourgeois counter-revolutionary, he is a middle class careerist), this agreement seems to be purely pragmatic in order to form a movement committed to the renegotiation of the bailout deal. This is hardly a coalition or even a long term ''entente''

Independent Greeks are not fascists, they are nationalist conservatives, an ideological opponent, but a natural body to have in a bourgeois system.

And you're forgetting some elements of the French Socialist Party defected to Petain and collaborated during WW2 while Mitterand was an admirer of Petain. During WW1 the Social Democrat parties supported the war on a nationalist principle. THOSE are the kind of Social Democrats Marx was talking about in his day that we shouldn't collaborate with, as they were Nationalist Social Democrats (just like you had National Liberals in Bismarckian Germany). He was practically predicting national socialism, so don't misinterpret Marx's critique of 19th century Social Democrats for current day Social Democrats.

Modern Social Democrats/ Socialist/Eurocommunists parties are left-liberal reformists seeking votes from the massive middle class (members of the neo-proleteriat, for the most part) in the mould of Tsipras, only he seems to be willing to accommodate revolutionary thought in his party.

As for the KKE, I am going to quote Ismail, a Marxist-Leninist on here who seems to know his stuff on the matter instead of wanting to have sex with Stalin in order to disgust liberals.


The KKE is a Brezhnevite party, not Marxist-Leninist. The ML party in Greece has a blog: http://anasintaxi.blogspot.com/


I'm not very good at revisionism, but I can imagine ''Brezhnevism'' isn't exactly a serious revolutionary path.



Is flat out, racism.

Um, I don't think he meant it seriously?!


If that were true, they would have entered in a coalition with the social democrats, indeed their maintenance of class independence over seats in parliament is an admirable stand by them.Omfg, ask any Greek and they will tell you KKE are just one of the ''Old Parties'' who live off privileges and collaborated in coalition with ND and Synapsimos. Their voter base is a father-son relationship thing rather than a serious ideological standpoint. People vote KKE because their father voted KKE because they helped the republican movement and told bedtime stories etc. Same with PASOK and ND

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Greece#Participation_in_governm ent

Please check up on your facts before posting the bedtime stories the KKE like to tell their ''traditional'' voters. They were in government.

[Sasha]

No, its orientalism, by the KKE..

For the past decades the only ppl the KKMAT took up arms against where leftists..

[Die Neue Zeit]

When the Lassalleans and Eisenachers united in 1875 Gotha, they didn't unite into a mere coalition or united front.

and wasn't Marx a bit snarky about this in Critique of the Gotha Program? Didn't the united SDP at its beginning lean too far towards reformism?

Marx was critical only of the program, not of the unity congress itself. The underlying motto was that unity is strength.

[Delenda Carthago]

The rest of this deserves a response, and I admit that I self criticize on this basis and respect that there is more to your post than this. But this remark:



Yes. KKE denied a government with SYRIZA with Papariga as a Prime Minister sayin that we dont sell out for a couple of Ministries, and even lost half its voters on the second elections of 2012 for that, and KKE fights for its PM seats. :rolleyes:

Sounds legit.




On the other hand SYRIZA is trying to create a big mass working movement.

Yes. That is why they collaborate with PASOK's syndicalists every chance they get.:laugh:



ask any Greek and they will tell you KKE are just one of the ''Old Parties'' who live off privileges and collaborated in coalition with ND and Synapsimos.

Yes. And while you are at it, ask who were the ones that pressured for that government. And ask where did they went after the Congress of the party said that this was a wrong move. And ask how many were of them in KKE back then.


OK. You are stupid enough not to ask anyone, so I will answer it myself.:o


A. That govnernment was a 6 month story so that the PASOK President Andreas Papandreou would not get a scandal erased and that he would go to trial.

B. Back then, almost 50% of the party were eurocommunist revisionists that struggled for the destruction of KKE. Your dear friend Dragasakis, which now is DA MAN on SYRIZA(and not Tsipras of course), lost the elections for the seat of GS of the CC of KKE for only 3 votes to Papariga. After that, half the party splited from KKE and joined Synaspismos, the anchestor of SYRIZA.

So actually, if its someone to blaim for that move, its SYRIZA.:laugh:



Their voter base is a father-son relationship thing rather than a serious ideological standpoint. People vote KKE because their father voted KKE because they helped the republican movement and told bedtime stories etc. Same with PASOK and ND

Weird thing. I seem to remember that 4 months ago, MAS(the KKE front in the univercities) gathered something like 25% at the elections, while AREN(SYRIZA's front) gathered only 4%. This goes also for the worker's movement and any movement elections there is in the country. SYRIZA is flat dead on a movement level and for some reason, it only seems to gathers voters on a central political level.

You wouldnt know why this is, would you?

[TheEmancipator]

Yes. And while you are at it, ask who were the ones that pressured for that government. And ask where did they went after the Congress of the party said that this was a wrong move. And ask how many were of them in KKE back then.


OK. You are stupid enough not to ask anyone, so I will answer it myself.:o


A. That govnernment was a 6 month story so that the PASOK President Andreas Papandreou would not get a scandal erased and that he would go to trial.

B. Back then, almost 50% of the party were eurocommunist revisionists that struggled for the destruction of KKE. Your dear friend Dragasakis, which now is DA MAN on SYRIZA(and not Tsipras of course), lost the elections for the seat of GS of the CC of KKE for only 3 votes to Papariga. After that, half the party splited from KKE and joined Synaspismos, the anchestor of SYRIZA.

Get rid of the chip of your shoulder and wake up to reality. The KKE voluntarily joined Synapsimos, they could have easily made the kind of childish symbolic stand to not collaborate with people they had expelled from their party years ago and/or called bourgeois collaborationists, adventurists, etc . They have always been an institutionalised mess, and that was the rare occasion they changed course in order to serve their interests, not that of the Greek proleteriat. They have always seeked, like most ML/Brezhnevite parties to look after their interests, their privileges.


So actually, if its someone to blaim for that move, its SYRIZA.:laugh:Syriza didn't exist. Synapsimos did. If I were a member of the revolutionary left in Greece I'd be voting for Syriza because of the numerous revolutionary factions in it, not Synapsimos. And it's not Synapsimos fault that the KKE didn't have the backbone to maintain any kind of consistency, instead resorting to play the role as "The Official Opposition" in the drama that is Greek politics. By the way, your friend here was still a member of the KKE when this happened http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleka_Papariga No wonder she and her "comrades" are a little frightened of losing their influence.

Unreal that our resident "expert" here can't even tell the difference between an alliance of political parties and a merging of political parties. What's interesting is that unlike what the KKE did in the late 80s, the current members of Syriza demanded a certain amount of independence in order to co-operate with Synapsimos. Hence SYRIZA and not "Synapsimos". They obviously learned from the KKE's mistake.





Weird thing. I seem to remember that 4 months ago, MAS(the KKE front in the univercities) gathered something like 25% at the elections, while AREN(SYRIZA's front) gathered only 4%. This goes also for the worker's movement and any movement elections there is in the country. SYRIZA is flat dead on a movement level and for some reason, it only seems to gathers voters on a central political level.
You wouldnt know why this is, would you?No I don't, why don't you tell us all your grand conspiracy that SYRIZA is secretly a bourgeois party intending to hijack the Left and that the KKE partisans who fought and died will rise from the grave and take back the Greek parliament with the proleteriat behind them, because never will they ever co-operate with a bourgeois government...

(...except to oust your main rival for the Tribal Left's vote...)


The KKE have been riding on the same rhetoric for 50 years now, it gets a bit boring.

(I'd attribute the KKE's grassroots success do to the fact that the grassroots of the KKE have always been productive and popular, its really the establishment they serve that is the hidden enemy within. A bunch of lying, corrupt politicians. Just like the bourgeois ones they criticise)

[Delenda Carthago]

Get rid of the chip of your shoulder and wake up to reality. The KKE voluntarily joined Synapsimos, they could have easily made the kind of childish symbolic stand to not collaborate with people they had expelled from their party years ago and/or called bourgeois collaborationists, adventurists, etc . They have always been an institutionalised mess, and that was the rare occasion they changed course in order to serve their interests, not that of the Greek proleteriat. They have always seeked, like most ML/Brezhnevite parties to look after their interests, their privileges.

Its so nice to have people from the other side of the world lecturing you about you and your history. :D

Ok. I will go slow so that you can catch up.

Synaspismos existed as a split from KKE since 1968. In 1989 KKE and Synaspismos collaborated, creating the Eniaios Synaspismos(United Coalition). After that, a KKE congress came up, in which the new GS was elected. In that congress, the two sides of the party, the communist and the new left/eurocommunist clashed. The communists, that supported Aleka Papariga won the other side, that supported Dragasakis with 58-53 votes. After that, the lost side(the one that pushed for the colaboration with Synaspismos) left the party, and joined Synaspismos.

Is that clear enough for you dear?




Syriza didn't exist. Synapsimos did. If I were a member of the revolutionary left in Greece I'd be voting for Syriza because of the numerous revolutionary factions in it, not Synapsimos. And it's not Synapsimos fault that the KKE didn't have the backbone to maintain any kind of consistency, instead resorting to play the role as "The Official Opposition" in the drama that is Greek politics. By the way, your friend here was still a member of the KKE when this happened http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleka_Papariga No wonder she and her "comrades" are a little frightened of losing their influence.

SYRIZA was a coalition of parties, the biggest of which was Sypaspismos. If you were a " member of the revolutionary left in Greece", you d be supporting a party that struggles for "healthy bussiness activity" and "a Barack Obama-like formula".

So you probably wouldnt be that much of a revolutionary.




What's interesting is that unlike what the KKE did in the late 80s, the current members of Syriza demanded a certain amount of independence in order to co-operate with Synapsimos. Hence SYRIZA and not "Synapsimos". They obviously learned from the KKE's mistake.
That is interesting. Didnt SYRIZA formed to a unique party, and all of the parties within it dissolved? Somebody must tell the neomaoist KOE the news, because the idiots deleted their own organisation to join SYRIZA! (http://www.koel.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4279:2013-07-05-16-06-22&catid=25:2010-01-27-15-12-07&Itemid=114)


How do like that independence?:lol:




No I don't, why don't you tell us all your grand conspiracy that SYRIZA is secretly a bourgeois party intending to hijack the Left and that the KKE partisans who fought and died will rise from the grave and take back the Greek parliament with the proleteriat behind them, because never will they ever co-operate with a bourgeois government...

A conspiracy is something that happens in secret. Here, its on public view. (http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2013/01/25-tsipras-washington-antholis-lombardi):rolleyes:
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrKq04la8UMIVo5arWIvBp8sZQN2nKX jEWSIoLtl-S-1SP1ZwK9Q





The KKE have been riding on the same rhetoric for 50 years now, it gets a bit boring.


Of course. Who cares about socialism, abolishion of the markets, working class power and all that boring stuff? Why dont we talk about interesting things like "healthy bussiness activity" and "how to create a mass movement by lying to the people".

[TheEmancipator]

Its so nice to have people from the other side of the world lecturing you about you and your history. :D

Your Greek. You're not the only Greek I've ever met though. So you're not "more informed" or "special". Get over it.


Ok. I will go slow so that you can catch up.More arrogance. It really helps your argument come through.


Synaspismos existed as a split from KKE since 1968. In 1989 KKE and Synaspismos collaborated, creating the Eniaios Synaspismos(United Coalition). After that, a KKE congress came up, in which the new GS was elected. In that congress, the two sides of the party, the communist and the new left/eurocommunist clashed. The communists, that supported Aleka Papariga won the other side, that supported Dragasakis with 58-53 votes. After that, the lost side(the one that pushed for the colaboration with Synaspismos) left the party, and joined Synaspismos.Can I ask why the fuck did the KKE join Synaspsismos, whose members were hounded out from the KKE for the most part, then joined in a bourgeois government headed by ND? Because you still haven't answered that fundamental flaw in their "we aren't class collaborationists" argument.


Is that clear enough for you dear?No, nothing is clear with the KKE. It makes baffling decisions, inane comments, and has sat around living off past glories to keep their parliament seats. It is an institutional mess, almost every Greek admits it and wants them to revise their ridiculous brand of Greek revisionism and their open hostility to any kind of remote democratic representation in Greece.




SYRIZA was a coalition of parties, the biggest of which was Sypaspismos. If you were a " member of the revolutionary left in Greece", you d be supporting a party that struggles for "healthy bussiness activity" and "a Barack Obama-like formula".

So you probably wouldn't be that much of a revolutionary.:lol: This made me laugh, I'll give you that. It needs sourcing though before I can comment on it. I'm sure Tsipras is referring to the Keynesianism currently employed by Anti-Christ Obama, slayer of the Working Classes. I've already told you Tsipras is a middle class populist though, I'm no great fan of his. But his movement I think we should get behind to re-enforce the working classes and ensure a strong platform for revolution in the foreseeable future.


That is interesting. Didnt SYRIZA formed to a unique party, and all of the parties within it dissolved? Somebody must tell the neomaoist KOE the news, because the idiots deleted their own organisation to join SYRIZA! (http://www.koel.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4279:2013-07-05-16-06-22&catid=25:2010-01-27-15-12-07&Itemid=114)


How do like that independence?:lol:
Seems like a commitment rather than what the KKE did when they joined "The Coalition" and tried to hijack the party, as you've detailed above.

Christ, we're talking about maoists, anarchists, etc here who have decided to put tendency wars aside (something the KKE is incapable of doing, since their "tendency" is one big political Mafia that tried to silence anybody who doesn't adhere to their twisted romanticism) to save Greece from the abyss that is austerity. This is not an ideological movement, this is a movement with a purely pragmatic outlook.





A conspiracy is something that happens in secret. Here, its on public view. (http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2013/01/25-tsipras-washington-antholis-lombardi):rolleyes:
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrKq04la8UMIVo5arWIvBp8sZQN2nKX jEWSIoLtl-S-1SP1ZwK9QYeah, Greece is in debt to the USA, you're going to have to accept this fact of the globalist bourgeois system, and again, Tspiras is aiming for pragmatism, and power, not to satisfy KKE fanboys who dream of marching in parliament on horseback with the entire Greek proletariat behind them.



Of course. Who cares about socialism, abolishion of the markets, working class power and all that boring stuff? Why dont we talk about interesting things like "healthy bussiness activity" and "how to create a mass movement by lying to the people".Ugh. The point is that Tsipras would strengthen the Greek working class and establish a platform for revolution in Greece. The KKE have been trying to establish that platform for the past 50 years, and even with a huge economic crisis and trust in the capitalist system at all time low, they still flop and focus on making sure they are part of the Greek drama.

If you had any consideration for the working classes of Greece you would back Syriza's plan. Most people predict it to eventually self-combust and return to a loose alliance of various "left" parties. I think you're more concerned your party (which you probably support out of pure tribalism, like most KKE members, since even hard-line MLs like Ismail seem to dismiss it as a joke) and romanticist scenarios.

[Delenda Carthago]

Your Greek. You're not the only Greek I've ever met though. So you're not "more informed" or "special". Get over it.

We happen to talk about something that I live and study everyday of my life for the last 10 years.
We talk about something that you know from discusions you have made a couple of times in your lifetime.
Have the dignity to have a self-knowledge and stop trying to be a smart ass that thinks that knows better. You couldnt.


Can I ask why the fuck did the KKE join Synaspsismos, whose members were hounded out from the KKE for the most part, then joined in a bourgeois government headed by ND? Because you still haven't answered that fundamental flaw in their "we aren't class collaborationists" argument.

I ll try to make it as simple as I can.

A. In 1989, there were people in KKE that later went to Synaspismos, and today are in SYRIZA.
B. These people were the 50% of the party.
C. These people pushed towards the coalition with Sypaspismos.
D. These people left after the congress of the party descided that the coalition was a mistake. After that, they joined Synaspismos.

I hope this time you ll understand.


:lol: This made me laugh, I'll give you that. It needs sourcing though before I can comment on it. I'm sure Tsipras is referring to the Keynesianism currently employed by Anti-Christ Obama, slayer of the Working Classes. I've already told you Tsipras is a middle class populist though, I'm no great fan of his. But his movement I think we should get behind to re-enforce the working classes and ensure a strong platform for revolution in the foreseeable future.

You laugh with it? And you think that Obama is something cool? SYRIZA you are!! Well done. But this has nothing to do with working class politics. And this is not Tsipras's talk, this is the official programm of the party, voted not a month ago. Everything else is just wishfull thinking.



Christ, we're talking about maoists, anarchists, etc here who have decided to put tendency wars aside (something the KKE is incapable of doing, since their "tendency" is one big political Mafia that tried to silence anybody who doesn't adhere to their twisted romanticism) to save Greece from the abyss that is austerity. This is not an ideological movement, this is a movement with a purely pragmatic outlook.
Ah, nice. So, maoists, anarchists etc joined a party with socialdemocratic programm and strategy, to "save Greece from austerity".

Within capitalist bounderies.

Because that is possible.

And that is "pragmatic".

Nice...


Yeah, Greece is in debt to the USA,

What!?


you're going to have to accept this fact of the globalist bourgeois system, and again, Tspiras is aiming for pragmatism, and power, not to satisfy KKE fanboys who dream of marching in parliament on horseback with the entire Greek proletariat behind them.

Thats what I m saying the whole time. SYRIZA and Tsipras are a party that wants to govern in capitalism, wants to reform the system(because that is SO possible during a crisis), while KKE deploys its strategy on the basis of a revolution. I dont see where we disagree on this one.



Ugh. The point is that Tsipras would strengthen the Greek working class and establish a platform for revolution in Greece. The KKE have been trying to establish that platform for the past 50 years, and even with a huge economic crisis and trust in the capitalist system at all time low, they still flop and focus on making sure they are part of the Greek drama.


First of all, KKE exists 90 years now, and the last 50 KKE has been from illegality, to a military dictatorship, to becoming legal again in 1975, to having 2 splits within 2 years(89-91), to changing its stategy from the 10th Congress programm to the 15th Congress "AADM"(Antiimperialist Antimonopolies Democratic Front) to the 19th "People's Allience" etc.

For someone that says that knows much, you lack a big something right there.




If you had any consideration for the working classes of Greece you would back Syriza's plan. Most people predict it to eventually self-combust and return to a loose alliance of various "left" parties. I think you're more concerned your party (which you probably support out of pure tribalism, like most KKE members, since even hard-line MLs like Ismail seem to dismiss it as a joke) and romanticist scenarios.

Sure man. We are romantic people that still believe in revolution, to working class organisation and working class power. You, the pragmatistic realpolitiks, can manage capitalism every way you want to, so that it will become user-friendly for the working class and the popular strata. The thing that I dont get, is why you want us with you at that?





PS. A simple look to the organisation that Ismail calls "the real m-l organisation in Greece", would make anyone understand. Here they are one of the most common leftist jokes, as some people that put in every text of theirs, no matter the issue, more than 20 times the name of Stalin and Zachariadis and always, keep coming back to them two. You can find many memes of people trolling them on internet.

[Teacher]

Really disappointed the KKE was overshadowed by these clowns.

[TheEmancipator]

We happen to talk about something that I live and study everyday of my life for the last 10 years.
We talk about something that you know from discusions you have made a couple of times in your lifetime.
Have the dignity to have a self-knowledge and stop trying to be a smart ass that thinks that knows better. You couldnt.

I'm not saying I know better than you! I'm saying that your argument that because you're greek you are somehow in a better place to comment on this doesn't stand up. You are the one who started personal insults.




I ll try to make it as simple as I can.

A. In 1989, there were people in KKE that later went to Synaspismos, and today are in SYRIZA.
B. These people were the 50% of the party.
C. These people pushed towards the coalition with Sypaspismos.
D. These people left after the congress of the party descided that the coalition was a mistake. After that, they joined Synaspismos.

I hope this time you ll understand.I understand. I understand that you are unwilling to take responsibility for mistakes made within the KKE in the past, and unable to detect the sheer hypocrisy of the KKE's condemnation of Syriza.



You laugh with it? And you think that Obama is something cool?No, I just think the idea that somebody is a class collaborationist reactionary because he had a meeting with Barack Obama as a very flawed, immature perspective on how diplomacy and the bourgeois system works. Your attacks on Tsipras are all symbolic, irrelevent nit-picks.




Ah, nice. So, maoists, anarchists etc joined a party with socialdemocratic programm and strategy, to "save Greece from austerity".

Within capitalist bounderies.

Because that is possible.

And that is "pragmatic".

Nice...Care to sight what KKE have done to pragmatically aid the working classes since the Civil War?



What!?The US lent money to Greece. To fund a ridiculous bureaucratic nationalist government.


Thats what I m saying the whole time. SYRIZA and Tsipras are a party that wants to govern in capitalism, wants to reform the system(because that is SO possible during a crisis), while KKE deploys its strategy on the basis of a revolution. I dont see where we disagree on this one.What's in bold is nonsense. the KKE is a quasi-eurcommunist party that is living off their contribution in the Greek Civil War rather than any credible pragmatism in the bourgeois capitalist society, unlike the Western eurocommunists and Syriza, and lack any credible revolutionary credentials. They make the Bolsheviks look competent, legitimate revolutionaries.



First of all, KKE exists 90 years now, and the last 50 KKE has been from illegality, to a military dictatorship, to becoming legal again in 1975, to having 2 splits within 2 years(89-91), to changing its stategy from the 10th Congress programm to the 15th Congress "AADM"(Antiimperialist Antimonopolies Democratic Front) to the 19th "People's Allience" etc.

For someone that says that knows much, you lack a big something right there.That's nice, but you still refuse to adress why the KKE didn't use their huge influence in Greece preparing this proletarian revolution they prophecise.



Sure man. We are romantic people that still believe in revolution, to working class organisation and working class power. You, the pragmatistic realpolitiks, can manage capitalism every way you want to, so that it will become user-friendly for the working class and the popular strata. The thing that I dont get, is why you want us with you at that? Because if we are to regain any legitimacy from the proletariat we must show them that we are capable of beating capitalism at its own game, and generally speaking competent at running state affairs for the revolution to succeed.

Boasting about your Leninist theoretical credentials will only get you so far. People also want action, proof that you are willing to solve issues (other than antifascism, which to the KKE and Syriza's credit they have done) that benefit the working classes.



PS. A simple look to the organisation that Ismail calls "the real m-l organisation in Greece", would make anyone understand. Here they are one of the most common leftist jokes, as some people that put in every text of theirs, no matter the issue, more than 20 times the name of Stalin and Zachariadis and always, keep coming back to them two. You can find many memes of people trolling them on internet.I just found it amusing even the most hardline Stalinist thinks the KKE is a Brezhnevite party :lol: Its surreal.



Really disappointed the KKE was overshadowed by these clowns.

But they only have themselves to blame. They played the bourgeois political game, and lost. They had an opportunity to fill the void left by PASOK instead of Syriza, but instead boasted about the dictatorship they would establish, how they would take the mandate for granted and transform into a society conforming to their ideals, which resembled nothing like Marx's vision for society. They don't seem to care anyway, I think they enjoy just being That Party that condemns everything. I mean reading their news feed, its just crazy the dreamworld they're living in. They are part of the political establishment and they should fall with the political establishment.

[Delenda Carthago]

I understand. I understand that you are unwilling to take responsibility for mistakes made within the KKE in the past, and unable to detect the sheer hypocrisy of the KKE's condemnation of Syriza.

No, of course the coalition with Synaspismos/SYRIZA and the participation in a capitalist government it was a mistake. Thats why it will never happen again. Thats what I ve been saying the whole time. Never again in government, never again with SYRIZA.


No, I just think the idea that somebody is a class collaborationist reactionary because he had a meeting with Barack Obama as a very flawed, immature perspective on how diplomacy and the bourgeois system works. Your attacks on Tsipras are all symbolic, irrelevent nit-picks.

That is a very nice strawman, well done. But what I said was, that SYRIZA is nothing but an Obama, that fights for "υγειής επιχειρηματικότητα", because as we all know, its not about Capital-Labour, but about good capitalists and bad ones. And that is criticism to the core of the problem.


Care to sight what KKE have done to pragmatically aid the working classes since the Civil War?

Even though your answer does not in any way answer to mine, of course I will...

Just so you know, KKE after the end of the civil war became illegal up until 1975. In that time, specialy during the years of the dictatorship, KKE has offered its blood for the struggles of the greek people. Names like Beloyannis, Ploumpidis, Sotiropoulou and others have been writen in the books of history of Greece, and no punk can erase that. KKE also did an enormous thing continuesly and unstopable for the last 9 decades: it has been the vanguard of the greek working class. Every major strike, every achievement the greek workers have on their backs, has the sign of KKE on it. And that has cost many other things, like lawsuits from capitalists, gettin fired from your job and others. And that is the reason that PAME is gaining power day afrer day, while the Autonomous Intervention, the SYRIZA syndicalists, can only be present while it absorves the PASOK mechanism.

So, to make a long story short... When KKE organised all these strikes that lasted more than 100(and sometimes 200) days, where was SYRIZA? When KKE stormed and occupied the ministries (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqMaCpERlPM), were was SYRIZA? When KKE guarded the strikes on the ships and fought the marine cops (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvHlTb7vmp4)where was SYRIZA? When elected to their unions syndicalists of PAME refuse to get promoted so that there wont be a question from their co-workers that they are fighting for their rights (http://www.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=7527939), where is SYRIZA?

That and many many more KKE has offered.



What's in bold is nonsense. the KKE is a quasi-eurcommunist party that is living off their contribution in the Greek Civil War rather than any credible pragmatism in the bourgeois capitalist society, unlike the Western eurocommunists and Syriza, and lack any credible revolutionary credentials. They make the Bolsheviks look competent, legitimate revolutionaries.

Thats so cute. You dont like KKE, you dont like the Bolsheviks, you are supporting SYRIZA and you have no problem with Obama. And after all that, you still accuse other of being reformists, revisionists etc. Nice...



That's nice, but you still refuse to adress why the KKE didn't use their huge influence in Greece preparing this proletarian revolution they prophecise.
Because usualy, revolutions dont happen through taking the government. On the contrary, history has shown that whenever a communist party took part in a capitalist government, it behaved just like any other party would do. And for a good reason too. If there is a plan to do otherwise, tell us.



I just found it amusing even the most hardline Stalinist thinks the KKE is a Brezhnevite party :lol: Its surreal.

Well, you know, thats the thing. People label KKE as stalinist, revisionist, nowdays even trotskyist. KKE denounces all these labels. KKE is a modern m-l party, that has made its own conclusions from the last 100 years of working class political activity, and it does not base its politics neither on the face of Stalin, or anyone else, but on programms and thesis. It supports USSR construction of socialism, mostly up until 1941, but it applies critisism to the stuff it finds wrong about it.It doesnt take the Holy Words of Stalin and Hoxha or Mao as a Bible. And for example,it is against the stage theory in general. So it does not support neither the "good" stagism of the "stalinist" period, or the "bad" stagism of the "brehzniefist" period.

So, label us whatever you want. Those who are willing to understand, they do.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Because if we are to regain any legitimacy from the proletariat we must show them that we are capable of beating capitalism at its own game, and generally speaking competent at running state affairs for the revolution to succeed.

Ah, that old chestnut, that somehow by being competent managers of capitalism, we are proving that capitalism should be destroyed by a revolution. The fallability of logic inherent in such statements are mind-boggling.

Do tell me, how would helping to manage a capitalist state more effectively, i.e. turning into a capitalist party, hoping to succeed in a capitalist system, make the death of capitalism any more likely?


People also want action, proof that you are willing to solve issues (other than antifascism, which to the KKE and Syriza's credit they have done) that benefit the working classes.


How can effecting the continuation of capitalism 'benefit the working classes'? You're a reformist, aren't you? Can you not see that seeking reforms is just a circular dead-end? It pushes us further away from ending capitalism; further, by becoming a capitalist electoral party, it makes the 'left's' reforms less permanent and more open to reversal, and lastly, when we do need direct action, when we do need revolutionary change, it means that we're (well, you're!) in no position to offer an alternative to the capitalist electoral merry-go-round.

[TheEmancipator]

No, of course the coalition with Synaspismos/SYRIZA and the participation in a capitalist government it was a mistake. Thats why it will never happen again. Thats what I ve been saying the whole time. Never again in government, never again with SYRIZA.

Yes, but the KKE keep telling the Greek people that they never participated in government and were never accomplice with the "bourgeois" governement, which regardless of circumstances is not true. the KKE accuse others



That is a very nice strawman, well done. But what I said was, that SYRIZA is nothing but an Obama, that fights for "υγειής επιχειρηματικότητα", because as we all know, its not about Capital-Labour, but about good capitalists and bad ones. And that is criticism to the core of the problem.

No, you see, that is exactly why nobody takes the KKE seriously. Somebody who meets up with Obama with the goal of easing the Greek burden of debt is not an ideological ally of Obama's.



Even though your answer does not in any way answer to mine, of course I will...

Just so you know, KKE after the end of the civil war became illegal up until 1975. In that time, specialy during the years of the dictatorship, KKE has offered its blood for the struggles of the greek people. Names like Beloyannis, Ploumpidis, Sotiropoulou and others have been writen in the books of history of Greece, and no punk can erase that. KKE also did an enormous thing continuesly and unstopable for the last 9 decades: it has been the vanguard of the greek working class. Every major strike, every achievement the greek workers have on their backs, has the sign of KKE on it. And that has cost many other things, like lawsuits from capitalists, gettin fired from your job and others. And that is the reason that PAME is gaining power day afrer day, while the Autonomous Intervention, the SYRIZA syndicalists, can only be present while it absorves the PASOK mechanism.

So, to make a long story short... When KKE organised all these strikes that lasted more than 100(and sometimes 200) days, where was SYRIZA? When KKE stormed and occupied the ministries (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqMaCpERlPM), were was SYRIZA? When KKE guarded the strikes on the ships and fought the marine cops (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvHlTb7vmp4)where was SYRIZA? When elected to their unions syndicalists of PAME refuse to get promoted so that there wont be a question from their co-workers that they are fighting for their rights (http://www.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=7527939), where is SYRIZA?

That and many many more KKE has offered.

Well Syriza didn't exist for a long while, and its numerous small parties have all contributed to class struggle. In fact the impression my greek sources get is that the KKE purposefully intimidate any rival of theirs, purely to keep up the act of defending the working classes.





Thats so cute. You dont like KKE,

Like most of the Greek proletariat it seems.


you dont like the Bolsheviks,

Where's the problem in not liking bourgeois nationalist bonapartists?



you are supporting SYRIZA

Not unconditionally and tribalistically, unlike your support for the KKE.


and you have no problem with Obama.

Strawman. I never commented on my position towards a bourgeois nationalist politician, I just said meeting with him does not make you some kind of reactionary class collaborationist, which is what you implied.



And after all that, you still accuse other of being reformists, revisionists etc. Nice...

Don't see where I called you a reformist or revisionist?


Because usualy, revolutions dont happen through taking the government. On the contrary, history has shown that whenever a communist party took part in a capitalist government, it behaved just like any other party would do. And for a good reason too. If there is a plan to do otherwise, tell us.


Why do the KKE exist as a bourgeois political entity then. I respect their groundwork and grassroots activism for revolution, but why do the same faces stand for election, get their customary 15% (regardless of the failure of the capitalist system in Greece) and use their parliamentary privileges and salaries to distribute hot air to the Greek populace, as if there wasn't any there anyway.

If the KKE are serious about these plans, they would withdraw their party from elections and watch the current political class disintegrate by itself.




Well, you know, thats the thing. People label KKE as stalinist, revisionist, nowdays even trotskyist. KKE denounces all these labels. KKE is a modern m-l party, that has made its own conclusions from the last 100 years of working class political activity, and it does not base its politics neither on the face of Stalin, or anyone else, but on programms and thesis. It supports USSR construction of socialism, mostly up until 1941, but it applies critisism to the stuff it finds wrong about it.It doesnt take the Holy Words of Stalin and Hoxha or Mao as a Bible. And for example,it is against the stage theory in general. So it does not support neither the "good" stagism of the "stalinist" period, or the "bad" stagism of the "brehzniefist" period.

So, label us whatever you want. Those who are willing to understand, they do.

I didn't label the KKE Brezhnevite, a Marxist-Leninist did! :lol:


Ah, that old chestnut, that somehow by being competent managers of capitalism, we are proving that capitalism should be destroyed by a revolution. The fallability of logic inherent in such statements are mind-boggling.

Really, I seem to recall even Lenin famously proclaiming that the USSR had "missed a step" and had to return to a market-based economy. Not that i would support a return to capitalism.

But no, I mean we should fight capitalism at a grassroots level, gaining support from the proletariat, before striking the final blow. I do not want to strengthen capital.



Do tell me, how would helping to manage a capitalist state more effectively, i.e. turning into a capitalist party, hoping to succeed in a capitalist system, make the death of capitalism any more likely?

Because parties like Syriza would not strengthen the capital in the hands of the bourgeoisie, they would weaken it, either purposefully or through sheer incompetence due to Syriza's fractured nature. And there are enough parties there who are ready to campaign for revolution, using Syriza's political influence in the process.



How can effecting the continuation of capitalism 'benefit the working classes'? You're a reformist, aren't you?

*Sigh* What we have to realise is that largely due to the KKE's incompetence and Stalin-worship, Greece missed a chance at putting a rotten system to bed. If you think easing austerity measures on working class families who are struggling for medicine and food is reformism, then so be it. You keep reading your old books about Lenin and Mao and preaching the revolution like a religion, and I will support any movement that will aid the workers' struggle, and re-enforce worker power with the ultimate goal of revolution.



Can you not see that seeking reforms is just a circular dead-end? It pushes us further away from ending capitalism; further, by becoming a capitalist electoral party, it makes the 'left's' reforms less permanent and more open to reversal, and lastly, when we do need direct action, when we do need revolutionary change, it means that we're (well, you're!) in no position to offer an alternative to the capitalist electoral merry-go-round.

The KKE's "direct action" seems to have paid off though right? Greece is nowhere near close to revolution despite the worst capitalist crisis in a single country for decades. I think this unbridled support for KKE on these forums is a sign of the naivety in believing what those lying politicians in the higher echelons of the party tell you.

Syriza is hardly seeking "reformism". Under the current bourgeois system their country is in debt. This is something we are going to have to accept, since the entity that is Greece, under bourgeois leadership, accepted the bailout plans. Syriza is actually threatening to default, and go forward with plans for radical changes in the way Greek society is structed (which sounds to me like some kind of intent at revolution) but is open to negotiation. Because any default, devaluation of currency or revolutionary activity would sadly incur the wrath of the states that burrowed Greece money.

This isn't some magical sandbox world where you can do what you want. If we are to have a successful revolution in Greece, it must first be freed of its imposed measures by foreign powers.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

[QUOTE=TheEmancipator;2652649]
Really, I seem to recall even Lenin famously proclaiming that the USSR had "missed a step" and had to return to a market-based economy. Not that i would support a return to capitalism.

Russia, at the time Lenin spoke, was a relatively (though not totally) backwards country, still constrained somewhat by the yoke of feudal social relationships. It had, after all, been near enough an absolute monarchy until the Tsar abdicated.

Besides, if you won't support a return to capitalism, then I don't know why you'd invoke that Lenin quote, which led to a period of intense capitalisation of the Russian economy in the 1920s.



Because parties like Syriza would not strengthen the capital in the hands of the bourgeoisie, they would weaken it, either purposefully or through sheer incompetence due to Syriza's fractured nature. And there are enough parties there who are ready to campaign for revolution, using Syriza's political influence in the process.

How would they weaken it? You say you want to reverse austerity measures. No doubt we all do. But if you become a capitalist electoral party, you become a capitalist electoral party. It is utopian to think that a party that is any sort of threat to capitalism will get elected in a capitalist election, nevermind actually be able to implement any sort of anti-capitalist program!



*Sigh* What we have to realise is that largely due to the KKE's incompetence and Stalin-worship, Greece missed a chance at putting a rotten system to bed. If you think easing austerity measures on working class families who are struggling for medicine and food is reformism, then so be it.

But if you don't have any revolutionary strategy to go along with reforms, then you are, i'm afraid, just a reformist who wants to make capitalism - the current social order - work better for working people, something which, whilst a noble aim, has been proven countless times in history to be a dead end for the working class.



You keep reading your old books about Lenin and Mao and preaching the revolution like a religion, and I will support any movement that will aid the workers' struggle, and re-enforce worker power with the ultimate goal of revolution.

I'm not a Leninist or a Maoist. I despise both of them, politically, but nice ad hominem. I'm sure you'll do your bit by turning up to vote for Social Democratic flavour-of-the-month in the next bourgeois election! ;)



The KKE's "direct action" seems to have paid off though right? Greece is nowhere near close to revolution despite the worst capitalist crisis in a single country for decades. I think this unbridled support for KKE on these forums is a sign of the naivety in believing what those lying politicians in the higher echelons of the party tell you.

I despise the KKE, so your ad hominem attack is, again, pointless.

[TheEmancipator]

Russia, at the time Lenin spoke, was a relatively (though not totally) backwards country, still constrained somewhat by the yoke of feudal social relationships. It had, after all, been near enough an absolute monarchy until the Tsar abdicated.

Besides, if you won't support a return to capitalism, then I don't know why you'd invoke that Lenin quote, which led to a period of intense capitalisation of the Russian economy in the 1920s.

Sorry, I wrongly assumed you were a Leninist. I'm just saying plenty of Marxist theoriticians have agreed that the market must have fully extinguished its economic and humanly progressive potential before we can dismiss it as anti-revolutionary.

I'm not going to go as far as advocating market socialism and "democracy in the workplace" which is as utopic a vision as the libertarian one. But a similar system is perhaps what is intended to lead up to the revolution.



How would they weaken it?By locking up the people responsible and cleaning up the rampant corruption in Greece for a start (the latter is conditional to how big Tsipras' ambition and intention is though though)



You say you want to reverse austerity measures. No doubt we all do. But if you become a capitalist electoral party, you become a capitalist electoral party. It is utopian to think that a party that is any sort of threat to capitalism will get elected in a capitalist election, nevermind actually be able to implement any sort of anti-capitalist program! This is dumb. The bourgeoisie do not fix elections in Europe and America, they influence them and resort to dirty, divide and conquer tactics (racism, etc), appearances and false promises. These ''capitalist'' elections you speak of, i have no doubt about their legitimacy. The problem lies within the Greek Constitution and most other Western constitutions that limit the power of any party in the current system.

I agree with you though that Syriza, KKE etc, are part of the capitalist sphere, playing the good role of opposition. Should they be voted into power though, I would expect them to federalise powers across workers' councils and judging by Syriza's loose alliance, some of which are revolutionaries with more credentials than you and I, I expect them to be able to set up some kind of new system in Greece.





But if you don't have any revolutionary strategy to go along with reforms, then you are, i'm afraid, just a reformist who wants to make capitalism - the current social order - work better for working people, something which, whilst a noble aim, has been proven countless times in history to be a dead end for the working class. Who says Syriza don't have a revolutionary strategy? They just prioritise the renegotiation of the debt deal before going towards wild utopic illusions of grandeur. I'm pretty sure if Tsipras or his rivals within the party don't get what they want they will default on the debt and start massively overhauling Greek society. Party privileges, the Orthodox Church's power, the crack down on fascist violence and the trial of corrupt and cavalier financial, mediatic and political elements are something that Syriza could well deliver and those measures are necessary before we engage in any kind of restructuring of material conditions in Greece.




I'm not a Leninist or a Maoist. I despise both of them, politically, but nice ad hominem. I'm sure you'll do your bit by turning up to vote for Social Democratic flavour-of-the-month in the next bourgeois election! ;)Of course, bourgeois elections are one of the most entertaining parts of the bourgeois system. Doesn't mean I take it seriously.

I would never vote for any ''traditional'' party though, because they are part of the "old" system.


I despise the KKE, so your ad hominem attack is, again, pointless.Well, I'm sorry if I offended you, but I don't think my support for Syriza over the KKE as the official "Left" party in Greece makes me a reformist social democrat as you accused me of. I do believe though that Syriza along with Independent Greeks should replace the traditional parties of Greece as for me it is a sure sign of progress, albeit slow. Because PASOK, KKE and ND, along with their friends all over Europe (centre left, centre right) are just stooges and careerists that make bourgeois politics boring and conservative.

[Delenda Carthago]

Yes, but the KKE keep telling the Greek people that they never participated in government

Lolwut?


No, you see, that is exactly why nobody takes the KKE seriously. Somebody who meets up with Obama with the goal of easing the Greek burden of debt is not an ideological ally of Obama's.

No you see, nobody takes you seriously. Because you waste our fuckin time talkin about something that you CLEARLY know NOTHING about. Because if you knew, you would knew that Tsipas proudly declares that "what he is proposing, Obama is doing" (http://www.protothema.gr/politics/article/236129/tsipras-leo-o_ti-efarmozei-o-ompama/).


Well Syriza didn't exist for a long while, and its numerous small parties have all contributed to class struggle. In fact the impression my greek sources get is that the KKE purposefully intimidate any rival of theirs, purely to keep up the act of defending the working classes.

Ok. Lets just say that this would be true. Even if its quite clear to anyone that KNOWS the situation, that its bs and SYRIZA syndicalists continuesly sell out the working class. (http://www.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=6963361)What are THEY doing about it? Why the working class prefers PAME over them to class with the Capital in Greece? Why havent they have anything to show, like a good massive strike? Where are their stripes anyway?



Where's the problem in not liking bourgeois nationalist bonapartists?

Yes. You dont like the Bolsheviks for being... "nationalist bonapartists"(:confused:) but you support the parties within SYRIZA, other than the socialdemocrat Synaspismos, that have their refference on the Bolsheviks, as the protectors of the revolutionary spirit of SYRIZA?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRnFIJAeTIe63011WS4OeE9Q1EMk1e4H QXbrbaT8OQQ8DrYDGsNsg




Strawman. I never commented on my position towards a bourgeois nationalist politician


Well you did stand sarcasticly towards the ideas that accuse him for enemy of the working class... And you do support the greek party that feels proud to propose the same agenda as him. So...




Btw, Tsipras of course didnt met Obama, he spoke to two american think tanks, Brookings and Levy. But I guess thats OK for you..:lol:



Not unconditionally and tribalistically, unlike your support for the KKE.

Of course. KKE has won my trust, even though I was an enemy of it as an anarchist. Good for it.

And how is your support not unconditionally, since you have come to support even the most discusting of its actions? Where does your "red line" stands anyway?

[TheEmancipator]

Lolwut?

Yet_Another Boring_Marxist was saying so, you butted in and started to make excuses for the KKE, who have a history of claiming they never collaborate with bourgeois parties...except they did, regardless of the internal politics. End of discussion.


No you see, nobody takes you seriously. Because you waste our fuckin time talkin about something that you CLEARLY know NOTHING about. Because if you knew, you would knew that Tsipas proudly declares that "what he is proposing, Obama is doing" (http://www.protothema.gr/politics/article/236129/tsipras-leo-o_ti-efarmozei-o-ompama/).Its called Keynesian recovery policy. Its ultimately a capitalist policy but rest assured it is the lesser of two evils. You probably don't know what its like to have your life saving put on the line and your pension under threat like most Greeks did back in 08. In fact, have you ever actually been on any kind of income? Have you ever had a job. Because ultimately what we are talking about here is a massive decrease in working class living standard if we do not solve the debt crisis Greece is in.

I can't read Greek either.




Ok. Lets just say that this would be true. Even if its quite clear to anyone that KNOWS the situation, that its bs and SYRIZA syndicalists continuesly sell out the working class. (http://www.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=6963361)What are THEY doing about it? Why the working class prefers PAME over them to class with the Capital in Greece? Why havent they have anything to show, like a good massive strike? Where are their stripes anyway?With the assumption that the majority of Syriza's electorate are working to middle class, and not bourgeois, I think the polls speak for themselves. The grassroots KKE movements are successful because the KKE is this behemoth that constantly crushes any kind of Left opposition, and deploys smoke screens and dirty tactics exactly like bourgeois politicians. You're giving a great demonstration of this now : you are offended that someone prefers a Left rival over yours, and you are desperate to try and paint Syriza as this bourgeois Obama-supporting liberal party. Which is utter nonsense.

When it comes to election day, the silent, pro-KKE working class majority voted in KKE with 15%. Great platform for revolution, I must admit. the 2011 elections were an embarrassment for the KKE, as they were overtaken by a fledgling party of which some members were far more left-wing than the KKE.





Yes. You dont like the Bolsheviks for being... "nationalist bonapartists"(:confused:) but you support the parties within SYRIZA, other than the socialdemocrat Synaspismos, that have their refference on the Bolsheviks, as the protectors of the revolutionary spirit of SYRIZA?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRnFIJAeTIe63011WS4OeE9Q1EMk1e4H QXbrbaT8OQQ8DrYDGsNsgI've already expressed my discontent towards Tspras' faction and I haven't commented

Orsm meme btw, I wanna play too
http://24.media.tumblr.com/9cdde7f7461c5517870464cf628f2437/tumblr_mne745a2Zu1rch2d7o1_500.jpg

Me so funny lol. Now stop the bullshit.




Well you did stand sarcasticly towards the ideas that accuse him for enemy of the working class... And you do support the greek party that feels proud to propose the same agenda as him. So...Because Obama is a harmless liberal career politician. I don't think he is some kind of enemy of the working class, unless you still think class warfare is a swords and sandals affair. He's just a re-enforcer of capital and a coward.


Of course. KKE has won my trust, even though I was an enemy of it as an anarchist. Good for it.Why do you support the KKE? I'd really like to know. Did you vote for them?


And how is your support not unconditionally, since you have come to support even the most discusting of its actions? Where does your "red line" stands anyway?Because if it does continue on its course for right wing politics then I'd abandon my support. I already expressed my disgust for collaboration with the IG and Tspras' actions towards the Left Platform. However, there are enough signs for me to maintain that Syriza have far more revolutionary potential than the conservative KKE.

[Delenda Carthago]

Its called Keynesian recovery policy. Its ultimately a capitalist policy but rest assured it is the lesser of two evils. You probably don't know what its like to have your life saving put on the line and your pension under threat like most Greeks did back in 08. In fact, have you ever actually been on any kind of income? Have you ever had a job. Because ultimately what we are talking about here is a massive decrease in working class living standard if we do not solve the debt crisis Greece is in.First of all, dont you ever, EVER in your life talk again about my personal situation. You dont have a mothafuckin clue what I m going through for the last 5 years. And of course I work, when I can due to unemployntment rates, and I also chip in in my family's bank debts. I have a debt in my name that might lead me to jail. Who you think you talking to? The middle class friends of yours that become leftists in private universities? I am nearly 30 motherfucker and I work since my 16. I have stoped twice my collage education to start working. Fuck off with that shit.

And fuck keynsian liars. Capitalism cannot become pro-worker. End of discusion. If you think otherwise, try join the RefLeft forum. And since I am a worker, I will fight under my own banners, not under the banners of a fraction of the Capital.



I can't read Greek either. If you cant read greek its your problem. You speak as someone that knows everything, while you dont. I bring evindence for what I am saying, if you cant check them, its on you. Stop acting like mr. know-it-all if you cant handle that kind of discusions.



you are offended that someone prefers a Left rival over yours, and you are desperate to try and paint Syriza as this bourgeois Obama-supporting liberal party. Which is utter nonsense.
I just posted a link where Tsipras says clearly that he wants to copy Obama policies. You just said that "keynsianism is not such a bad thing". You really are a confused fellow. Before you dissed the Bolsheviks while you defend as the purest form of revolution in Greece parties that, at least theoriticaly, support the Octomber revolution as their prototype.

Are you sure you are not just talkin for the sake of it?



Because Obama is a harmless liberal career politician. I don't think he is some kind of enemy of the working class, unless you still think class warfare is a swords and sandals affair. He's just a re-enforcer of capital and a coward. And this guy is a judge on who's revolutionary and who's not.:lol:


Why do you support the KKE? I'd really like to know. Did you vote for them?Because KKE is the most serious hope for a working class revolution, and the most serious organisation to lead the construction of socialism probably in Europe. Anyone else is, in Greece at least, a joke. And I am a friend of the party, this is where I struggle nowdays. Mostly though the workers front of PAME.


Because if it does continue on its course for right wing politics then I'd abandon my support. I already expressed my disgust for collaboration with the IG and Tspras' actions towards the Left Platform. However, there are enough signs for me to maintain that Syriza have far more revolutionary potential than the conservative KKE. Yes, SYRIZA can form the proggresive/revolutionary line of finding the best intentions on capitalists, in order of the old- fashioned KKE that talks about boring stuff like movements and revolutions...

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Sorry, I wrongly assumed you were a Leninist. I'm just saying plenty of Marxist theoriticians have agreed that the market must have fully extinguished its economic and humanly progressive potential before we can dismiss it as anti-revolutionary.

It is not the 'free market', it is capitalism that has extinguished, largely, its potential. Marx expounded upon the loss of revolutionary character, and largely negative effect upon working people, of capitalism 150 odd years ago. Since then, there has been little to suggest that capitalism has retained much that is progressive. Of course, some countries only moved from feudal to capitalist economic and social relations in the 20th century, but for the countries that already bore the hallmarks of capitalist social relations by the time of Marx's writing, the 150 years hence have proven his point over and over - capitalism is anti-democratic, anti-worker, anti-progressive, and it is in the interests of working people, economically, socially, and politically, to overthrow capitalism.


I'm not going to go as far as advocating market socialism and "democracy in the workplace" which is as utopic a vision as the libertarian one. But a similar system is perhaps what is intended to lead up to the revolution.

You've yet to explain how a 'similar system' to market socialism would in any way make a Socialist revolution more likely, or indeed lead in any way to the overthrow of capitalism. You denounce market socialism as utopian, yet you seem to be attaching yourself to the very same 'hit and hope' strategy.


By locking up the people responsible and cleaning up the rampant corruption in Greece for a start (the latter is conditional to how big Tsipras' ambition and intention is though though)

Locking up capitalists and attempting to un-corrupt the system implies that the current system would work, if only the current bunch of capitalists weren't in charge, and if only the system hadn't been corrupted. That is almost a reactionary perspective, in terms of harking back to some previous, non-existent, non-corrupt system.

The problem isn't that the system is corrupt, and the problem doesn't start and finish with the national bourgeoisie of Greece. The problem is society - nay, world- - wide, which is why you cannot manage capital to make it better for the workers, you cannot un-corrupt it, and you cannot solve its many problems by merely locking certain people up.



This is dumb. The bourgeoisie do not fix elections in Europe and America, they influence them and resort to dirty, divide and conquer tactics (racism, etc), appearances and false promises. These ''capitalist'' elections you speak of, i have no doubt about their legitimacy. The problem lies within the Greek Constitution and most other Western constitutions that limit the power of any party in the current system.

There is no way a non-capitalist party can win a capitalist election, and carry through their manifesto. Can you name one instance this has happened in history, without resorting to direct action to counter the prevailing influence of the ruling class?


I agree with you though that Syriza, KKE etc, are part of the capitalist sphere, playing the good role of opposition. Should they be voted into power though, I would expect them to federalise powers across workers' councils and judging by Syriza's loose alliance, some of which are revolutionaries with more credentials than you and I, I expect them to be able to set up some kind of new system in Greece.

Why do you expect a party elected into power to devolve its power? Again, can you point to any example of this happening in history? If I were head of a party voted into national power, the very last thing I would do is weaken my own power by devolving power to workers' councils.

You have to understand, that the instant a party is elected in a capitalist election, its job becomes to manage capitalism; it becomes the political wing of capital, and thus its interests become de-aligned from those of the working class.