Absurd Libertarians

[M42-AEK]

So I got into a dialogue with this Libertarian guy online, The things he's saying though just seem absurd, and for some reason doesn't seem, against taxes going to the war? And this other guy is just justifying the war? comments??:bored:

OP-is more or less on my way of being a Libertarian convert, thanks Diego for teaching me the ways of Mrs. Rand





Aye, its a step. Being a libertarian is one thing, being an Objectivist is quite another.





Ayn rand is a scourge. And a hypocrite, she collected from the very social security and Medicare she rallied against





^^False. She saved enough from the sale of her novels and such to live comfortably. Besides, there's nothing contradictory about collection YOUR money from a service you are FORCED to pay for as of yet.
She had lung cancer from years of chain smoking, without those social programs she would have been kicked to the curb like libertarians suggest we do with the sick or dying
Hardly. It is true she had created a close enclave of people who worshiped her and would have taken care of her. And like i said, how much do you think she contributed to those social programs? There's nothing "anti-libertarian" about using a service you're being forced to pay for. It doesn't disprove any of her beliefs and it certainly isn't a good argument for why these programs should exists in the first place.
If you want to talk about the ills of paying taxes, talk about how much money we spend on the military, or how we breast feed Israel. As far as taking care of the sick, elderly, or disabled though I think we could do alot more. I hear Somalia is a free market haven right now.





I'm not going to argue for a stronger state, and definitely not for laissez faire, no holds barred capitalism. We would be well to do away with both





Somalia is just pure anarchy, chaos. I'd argue this nation's biggest problem is government bailouts to corporations, and allowing these to use the government as a muscle to tip the balance of the free market in their favour. Big pharma, food corporations, the Wall Street gang, those guys who ruin the spirit of free enterprise and get rich by stealing from the hard working middle class via government thugs. That's my beef. Obamacare is the second biggest evil. Other things like welfare or medicaid or military spending are problems to be dealt with for sure, but not as pressing.






Yes well of course the government should not be bailing out corporations, lobbyists shouldn't be a thing either. Pretty much we live in a plutocracy. Free enterprise is a flawed system though and can lead to plutocracy or fascism. As a libertarian though you should be completely against the government spending money anywhere. I would say we have way too many military expenses that should be going towards social expenses, we need healthcare, and we really need an overhaul and reinvigoration of the education system. How great would it be to have subsistence farming classes in schools?





Sir, I would argue the opposite. I would prefer to see most of these social programs gone, more presently Obamacare and see some great reductions of welfare and most types of government subsidies. As for military spending, I am fine with it as long as its being used to defend all Americans from an imminent threat, but there is something awfully murky and unclear about where all our tax dollars are going towards, exactly. Fighting terrorism, very vague. I don't think I'll ever see this in my lifetime but ideally the government would have no part in public education. Private schools would dominate the free market, and individual communities; like say Scotch Plains; would be free to pool their money together for the education of their children if they so desired it. It makes no sense for the government to be educating the children who will most often be working in the private market.





The u.s. hasn't been fighting terrorism, it's been fighting for control of resources in a region, and blowing apart children in the process. You say the children will most often be working in the private market, you left out, from the age of 4
onwards. The idea that the market can balance itself, and ebb and flow and not monopolize, is somewhat absurd. If you want to see who the parasites of society are, look to the upper classes. And the next time someone says they got rich off of hard work, ask them "whose?"





OP- as hamas ans al qaeda has shown, they have NO problem blowing up children, so dont zoom in on the usa when they try to aovid that when ever possible
*picture of child suicide bomber i cant post links to yet*





I've no idea what the government is up to in those regions, so i can't say. I am however significantly more concerned about American tax dollars than I am about the welfare of foreigners, frankly.

I wouldn't recommend getting rid of Child Labour laws until the market has reached a more stable point (even then 4 seems a little early). The last thing this market needs are more unskilled workers.

Yes, the market can and will regulate itself, monopolies occur when certain corrupt individuals use the muscle that is government to tip the scales in their favour; if you want to talk monopoly you need look no further than Big Pharma. Who do you think pays the government off to keep most drugs illegal so that the little guy can't make money off them?

As for the last comment, I'll never understand why some in this society see individual progress as a bad thing; isn’t that the American Dream? You start off by working in the mines till you eventually own the mines and all your hard work is done with a ledger book rather than a pick ax. And I would argue that is still indeed hard work.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Oh God, he brought up the 'American Dream' bullshit.

That one phrase, 'the American Dream', is the boil on the ass of modern America. It's a completely bullshit concept that is built entirely on the idea that a person can somehow 'work hard' to climb up the social ladder without fucking over other people in the process. Be it Thomas Edison stealing his 'inventions' or Steve Jobs taking all the credit for Apple from Wozniak, the pantheon of those who achieved the 'American Dream' is filled with liars, crooks, thieves, murderers and hypocrites.....with only a bare handful of people who were otherwise morally upright individuals who got extremely lucky.

[TheEmancipator]

This guy isn't a lolbetarian, they generally aren't racist/xenophobic. He's an american exceptionalist and one of those Reaganite worshippers who says all government of evil except for the US Constitution, as if it was some freeze frame in History that we are supposed to all admire.

[CarolinianFire]

I used to be like that guy, it is not so much that he personally believes all the crap he is spewing, but that he has been brainwashed in to thinking that any type of government is inherently evil. It is a terrible ideology to be trapped in, but it is impossible to convince them they are wrong, they must find their way on their own.

[a_wild_MAGIKARP]

I am however significantly more concerned about American tax dollars than I am about the welfare of foreigners, frankly. Selfish piece of shit.

[tachosomoza]

This guy isn't a lolbetarian, they generally aren't racist/xenophobic. He's an american exceptionalist and one of those Reaganite worshippers who says all government of evil except for the US Constitution, as if it was some freeze frame in History that we are supposed to all admire.

In America, they are.

[G4b3n]

In America, they are.

I have meat a great deal that are not. However, the policies they are advocating for would certainly cause racism and xenophobia to flourish, but that does not mean they are consciously advocating for it.

The only positive side to the lolbertarians (ha good one) is that they might help end the brain dead war on drugs.

[tachosomoza]

I have meat a great deal that are not. However, the policies they are advocating for would certainly cause racism and xenophobia to flourish, but that does not mean they are consciously advocating for it.

The only positive side to the lolbertarians (ha good one) is that they might help end the brain dead war on drugs.

Most "racial realists" I've encountered are also right wing libertarians. They're very racist.

[G4b3n]

Most "racial realists" I've encountered are also right wing libertarians. They're very racist.

I didn't say none of them were, just not all of them.

[argeiphontes]

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- John Steinbeck

Thanks to effective propaganda of course. I suppose it's wearing a little thin these days... Check out Obama's recent speech about home ownership--is he going to abolish the credit bureaus (legal blacklists basically) and make the down payment for your dream of home ownership?

I'm personally boycotting the Jobs movie as propaganda. How about some better jobs for the Foxconn workers, or Americans back home? Ironic name for a ruthless capitalist, I suppose.

Anyway, don't mean to derail your thread. Ayn Rand is not really a philosopher just a "useful idiot" apologist of libertarianism, which we can all agree is morally bankrupt and not workable. I was just searching around for a libertarian answer to the Great Depression, and the best they seem to come up with is that market failures are really the result of government intervention. Really? Just deny the problem I guess.

[tuwix]

So I got into a dialogue with this Libertarian guy online, The things he's saying though just seem absurd, and for some reason doesn't seem, against taxes going to the war? And this other guy is just justifying the war? comments??:bored:

That he wasn't libertarian at all. The word libertarian originates in liberty which is freedom. But all advocates of capitalism are for wage slavery and slavery is someting exactly opossite to freedom.

[helot]

I was just searching around for a libertarian answer to the Great Depression, and the best they seem to come up with is that market failures are really the result of government intervention. Really? Just deny the problem I guess.

It's a nice get out of jail free card for them. Because they cannot find a market that lacks some sort of government intervention any problems that emerge within capitalism they can chalk it up to "well, its not a truly free market, is it?" and as soon as the topic changes go right back to justifying the status quo. At best their ideology amounts to them thinking they would be rich if it weren't for larger businesses getting help from the state. It's the cry of the petit bourgeoisie.

[TheEmancipator]

In America, they are.

Are you serious? I just thought it was the Paultards who were hypocritically right-wing xenophobes whose argument against war was "why should we help foreigners out", as if they were helping foreigners out in the first place.

I always thought the Libertarian Party wasn't that tough on stuff like immigration and were quite internationalist, and only naively free market intellectuals.

What a shame.

[tachosomoza]

Are you serious? I just thought it was the Paultards who were hypocritically right-wing xenophobes whose argument against war was "why should we help foreigners out", as if they were helping foreigners out in the first place.

I always thought the Libertarian Party wasn't that tough on stuff like immigration and were quite internationalist, and only naively free market intellectuals.

What a shame.

http://consortiumnews.com/2013/06/27/the-marriage-of-libertarians-and-racists/


Exclusive: The modern Republican Party and its chic libertarians have dallied with white supremacists as a political necessity, because blacks and other minorities have rallied to the Democrats due to their better civil rights record. But the Right’s dancing with the racist devil is not new. It’s as old as the Founding, writes Robert Parry.


By Robert Parry

In the U.S. news media, there is often a distinction made between the racist Right, which emerged from the struggle to maintain slavery and segregation, and the “small-government” Right, which supposedly represents a respectable conservatism focused on the libertarian ideals of personal freedom and free-market principles.

But the reality is that both of these major branches of the American Right grew from the same political trunk, i.e., the South’s fear that a strong federal government would intrude on the practices of slavery and, later, segregation. And, throughout U.S. history, those two branches of the Right have been mutually supportive.



Thus, prominent leaders of the “libertarian” Right – the likes of William F. Buckley, Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan and Ron and Rand Paul – have opposed major legislative efforts to combat Southern segregation, typically citing the “liberty” of a white restaurant owner to bar black patrons as trumping the right of the patrons to be treated fairly.

Similarly, on Tuesday, the right-wing majority of the U.S. Supreme Court embraced the freedom of states and communities with a history of racial discrimination in voting to change their voting rules without having to get clearance from federal authorities as the Voting Rights Act of 1965 (and renewed in 2006) had required.

The right of these districts to set their own standards topped the power*of Congress to require that the principle of one person, one vote be respected for black and brown people, according to the Court’s five right-wing justices. Thus, the libertarianism behind “small government” principles again supported the goal of white supremacy.

[M42-AEK]

Thanks Everyone! some people just make a point to be intolerant I guess, and they end up being intolerable. I liked this

It's a nice get out of jail free card for them. Because they cannot find a market that lacks some sort of government intervention any problems that emerge within capitalism they can chalk it up to "well, its not a truly free market, is it?" and as soon as the topic changes go right back to justifying the status quo. At best their ideology amounts to them thinking they would be rich if it weren't for larger businesses getting help from the state. It's the cry of the petit bourgeoisie.

[RedWaves]

I don't get the obsession with Ayn Rand. She is an idiot, and profited off it just enough.

Ron Paul is worse. How anyone can't see he's a president straight out of 1840 and is extremely racist blows my mind. Yet Libertards will defend him like he's some kind of God that can do no wrong. He put his presidential ads on Storm Front for Fuck's sake. That alone should show any sane person that he's racist.


Libertarians are the new fascists. They scare the living crap out of me.

That whole 'the market fixes itself' and how they preach about how great capitalism is always drives me nuts.

I see them on youtube complaining about consumerism and how advertisements brainwash people into making decisions but then again, you want to knock them in the face um HELLO? All those come from capitalism!


You don't even really have to argue with these idiots. They shoot themselves in the foot the minute they open their mouths. Worshiping Ayn Rand and Ron Paul, is enough to show how dumb they are. Both of them are racist, neither of them are/were against big business, and they are equally as insane, even though Ron Paul is a bit more insane if you ask me since he wants to use the bible as some kind of tool to reworking the economy.

[Red_Banner]

Libertarianism is left-wing.

Anarcho-communist Joseph Dejacque was the first person to call himself "libertarian".

Right-wingers have hijacked the term/

[RO17]

Libertarianism is left-wing.

Anarcho-communist Joseph Dejacque was the first person to call himself "libertarian".

Right-wingers have hijacked the term/
They worship capitalism and almost all radical right wingers, they must have had really twisted the term since then.

[Ocean Seal]

This guy isn't a lolbetarian, they generally aren't racist/xenophobic. He's an american exceptionalist and one of those Reaganite worshippers who says all government of evil except for the US Constitution, as if it was some freeze frame in History that we are supposed to all admire.
:laugh:
That's the funniest shit I've heard all day. Lolbertarians are racist as fuck, they just hide behind some obscure reasoning for their racism. Haven't you ever heard what they have to say about the "collectivist" races, or Von Mises on race, or Ayn Rand on the Palestinians and how Israel was bringing them civilization.

[RedWaves]

Libertarianism is left-wing.

Anarcho-communist Joseph Dejacque was the first person to call himself "libertarian".

Right-wingers have hijacked the term/


Totally disagree with you. They literally worship right wing thinkers and capitalism. I have never heard them say one thing that's wrong with capitalist and big business.

They are all about the Constitution and thinking the country can be fixed overnight just following it and ignoring everything else.

These people are the new fascists. If Fascism truly is Capitalism in Decay, this is the group of nutcases that will take over the right wing side and totally push it into overdrive.

[Orange Juche]

Totally disagree with you. They literally worship right wing thinkers and capitalism. I have never heard them say one thing that's wrong with capitalist and big business.

They are all about the Constitution and thinking the country can be fixed overnight just following it and ignoring everything else.

These people are the new fascists. If Fascism truly is Capitalism in Decay, this is the group of nutcases that will take over the right wing side and totally push it into overdrive.

Traditionally speaking, "libertarian" was a leftist term. It used to be that if you were a "libertarian", it was understood you were either an anarchist or anti-authoritarian Marxist/socialist of some sort.

The laissez-faire fringe have hijacked the term, so that now those who at one point could call themselves "libertarians" and you knew what they meant, have to specify "left libertarian" or "libertarian socialist", etc.

[Orange Juche]

I call them Libertards.

Considering mentally retarded people actually exist, and you're using "tard" as an insult, you're using ableist vernacular that's pretty discriminatory (and offensive). Reducing them to an object of derision by which to compare libertarians. They aren't objects of derision, they're human beings. Be mindful of that stuff, and stop, please.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I call them Libertards.
Really? You think it's appropriate to call anyone a variant of "retard"?

[rylasasin]

A minor complaint, but next time could you please pick colors other than bright green and bright orange? It's hard on the eyes. :glare:

Bright colors like that should never be used... unless the background is very dark in contrast. It just doesn't go well with light gray.

Sorry in advance for potentially taking the thread off topic, but it does irritate me when people do that.

[RedWaves]

Considering mentally retarded people actually exist, and you're using "tard" as an insult, you're using ableist vernacular that's pretty discriminatory (and offensive). Reducing them to an object of derision by which to compare libertarians. They aren't objects of derision, they're human beings. Be mindful of that stuff, and stop, please.


I apologize for the post and will remove it. Indeed it was wrong.

[RedWaves]

Traditionally speaking, "libertarian" was a leftist term. It used to be that if you were a "libertarian", it was understood you were either an anarchist or anti-authoritarian Marxist/socialist of some sort.

The laissez-faire fringe have hijacked the term, so that now those who at one point could call themselves "libertarians" and you knew what they meant, have to specify "left libertarian" or "libertarian socialist", etc.

I really do not know much about where their beliefs started, I am only judging them by what I see from now, where they hold Ayn Rand and Ron Paul on a pedestal. I cannot consider either one of those left whatsoever.

[Orange Juche]

I really do not know much about where their beliefs started, I am only judging them by what I see from now, where they hold Ayn Rand and Ron Paul on a pedestal. I cannot consider either one of those left whatsoever.

I totally agree with you that they're the new fascism... it's absolutely bizarre and nonsensical, "Lets try 1840 again!" doesn't seem like a platform that more than a handful of people could ever actually take serious.

EDIT: I agree with the post below, I misread. I'm starting to think we're being trolled.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I really do not know much about where their beliefs started, I am only judging them by what I see from now, where they hold Ayn Rand and Ron Paul on a pedestal. I cannot consider either one of those left whatsoever.
I think you're still not understanding. The term "libertarian" was originally left-wing, but has been appropriated by right-wingers.

[Mr. Mosley]

I disagree with you guys' use of the term "fascist". The right is clearly a tool of the capitalist class and, like the leeches they are, will hijack any name which will suit their political ends; this case being the term 'libertarian'.

Us fascists want nothing to do with these imbeciles. :glare:

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I disagree with you guys' use of the term "fascist". The right is clearly a tool of the capitalist class and, like the leeches they are, will hijack any name which will suit their political ends; this case being the term 'libertarian'.

Us fascists want nothing to do with these imbeciles. :glare:
Fuck off troll and enjoy your ban.

[Slavic]

Fuck off troll and enjoy your ban.

What a very insightful post.

Honestly though the term fascist get thrown around on this forum so frequent and arbitrary you'd think it was going out of fashion.

Do I think that the US libertarians are fascist; no
Do I think that the US libertarians are reactionary petite bourgeois and enemies to the workers; yes

[Sea]

What a very insightful post.Well, if Mr. Mosley's first name is Oswald, that sounds pretty fash to me.

So I'd like to cast my vote into the "please fuck off thank you" bucket.

[Slavic]

Well, if Mr. Mosley's first name is Oswald, that sounds pretty fash to me.

So I'd like to cast my vote into the "please fuck off thank you" bucket.


Now that I reread his post, I'm not sure if he meant "US fascists" or "Us fascists". I took it initially as "US fascists". I take back my retort to troll accusation, but I still think "fascist" is thrown around much to loosely here.

[Red_Banner]

Totally disagree with you. They literally worship right wing thinkers and capitalism. I have never heard them say one thing that's wrong with capitalist and big business.

They are all about the Constitution and thinking the country can be fixed overnight just following it and ignoring everything else.

These people are the new fascists. If Fascism truly is Capitalism in Decay, this is the group of nutcases that will take over the right wing side and totally push it into overdrive.

So you have never heard of Dejacque, Proudhon, or Bakunin?

[DOOM]

I have this one libertarian friend. He's kind of a crypto-privilegist (lol) hiding under a liberal cloak. He's totally xenophobic and believes feminism is bullshit. I don't take'm too seriously yet, but I believe those bourgeoise dipshits are getting more and more popular.

[Czy]

When people bring up the 'American Dream' simply point to economic mobility statistics. Starting out in the bottom fifth almost certainly results in you dying in that same income bracket.

Also, as someone already noted, those that do move up the ladder fuck over others on their way, knocking people off the ladder.

-Czy

[RedWaves]

I totally agree with you that they're the new fascism... it's absolutely bizarre and nonsensical, "Lets try 1840 again!" doesn't seem like a platform that more than a handful of people could ever actually take serious.

EDIT: I agree with the post below, I misread. I'm starting to think we're being trolled.

That's where Ron Paul comes into the picture :laugh:

He is straight out of 1840 if there ever was one.

Not many people take it seriously, and that's why Ron Paul is so funny. He's been pulling this shit since the 80's. Watch in 2016, he'll run for president again and not make it and all the white nationalist idiots will scream it's the Jews or the Illuminati or whatever. He's just taking their campaign money and laughing straight to the bank at the morons that would even support him to begin with.


On the other hand, it's not hard to imagine them rebuilding fascism through the right wing. They are the new fascists, they support capitalism 100%, and if you took the Koch Brothers, Fox News and every other right wing output to start funding and painting them in a positive light, their party would really take off just like the Nazi's did in Germany. People forget how the Nazi's had extreme billionaires supporting them by constantly making propaganda painting them out to be saviors.