Your take on secession?

[Popular Front of Judea]

So what is Revleft's memberships take on the issue of secession? That is the proposal that relatively progressive regions secede from their more conservative parent countries. Examples would be Scotland, Catalonia and the proposed regional entity "Cascadia" here in the States.

[DDR]

I support national liberation, therefore I support what you call secessionism (where I come from is called independentism), but if it doesn't bring socialism with it it's just worthless. Connolly explained really well.


If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs.

Shan Van Vocht (socialist newspaper) January, 1897. Reprinted in P. Beresford Ellis (ed.), "James Connolly - Selected Writings", p. 124.

[piet11111]

If its more likely to result in socialist property relations then yes otherwise no.

And since generally most independence struggles seem to be about allowing local capitalists to get a bigger slice of the cake i tend to oppose such struggles.

I know Marx supported some secessionist movements in Russia because he figured that if they where independent from the tsar they would be more likely to advance socially.

[Sea]

Would it not land a hard blow to working-class solidarity?

[Jimmie Higgins]

So what is Revleft's memberships take on the issue of secession? That is the proposal that relatively progressive regions secede from their more conservative parent countries. Examples would be Scotland, Catalonia and the proposed regional entity "Cascadia" here in the States.well I don't think there's much of a basis for it.

I just looked up cascadia because I'd never heard of it. The ironic thing is that there has been a movement for decades among u.s. racists to turn most of that same region into a white only country.

Would people be willing to wage war with the us and Canada? That's what it would take... What and who would have an interest in doing so? Could such a sparsely populated area even do that?

[piet11111]

Would it not land a hard blow to working-class solidarity?

Not automatically.

Say a slice of Colombia wanted to secede and politically alligned itself more towards Venezuela.

Venezuela certainly has a lot to be desired but Colombia is a country where leftists are routinely murdered.

In this example such a secession would be progressive for the working class provided they will have political control.

[stefanbl]

I don't take an position on secession in any inherent manner, it can be good or bad.

It can be good in cases where if frees the people there, for example the secession of the African States from the European Imperialist States, but it can also damage any conception of Proletarian Internationalism, or purely be a tool of the ruling class to preserve their own power, such as with the CSA.

[Glitchcraft]

It would seem that succession would have to be taken on a case by case basis. Texas succeeding from Mexico was clearly a step backwards, parts of Columbia wanting to succeed to align with Venezuela would be progressive.
Like many issues, it's got to be taken on a case by case basis.

[argeiphontes]

I think the trick would be to move to a small (geographically or population-wise) state and just vote ourselves in. Not actually secede, until or unless it was geopolitically feasible without an unwinnable war. It could be a great model to convince other people in the country that it was the right way to go.

Want to buy land in our state? Too bad, land is not for sale. Want to incorporate? OK, but it has to be a democratically managed worker cooperative. It's not a real revolution but it would beat waiting. I'd like to live in a better society sometime in my lifetime.

A mega-commune.

[Popular Front of Judea]

Thinking of moving to Vermont? Second Vermont Republic -- Wikipedia
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vermont_Republic)

I think the trick would be to move to a small (geographically or population-wise) state and just vote ourselves in. Not actually secede, until or unless it was geopolitically feasible without an unwinnable war. It could be a great model to convince other people in the country that it was the right way to go.

Want to buy land in our state? Too bad, land is not for sale. Want to incorporate? OK, but it has to be a democratically managed worker cooperative. It's not a real revolution but it would beat waiting. I'd like to live in a better society sometime in my lifetime.

A mega-commune.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Thinking of moving to Vermont? Second Vermont Republic -- Wikipedia
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vermont_Republic)

The lolbertarians already tried that in New Hampshire, and if those nutters can't do it, the left can't.

[Popular Front of Judea]

The nutters ARE doing it. http://freestateproject.org/


The lolbertarians already tried that in New Hampshire, and if those nutters can't do it, the left can't.

[Ann Egg]

We need to abolish States, not create more states, and thus, create more tyranny and oppression.

[precarian]

I am absolutely opposed to separatism everywhere - from Tibet to Scotland to the Basque Country. It is petit-bourgeois obscurantism.

Dividing the working class up into micro-states does not benefit our cause. We should be tearing down national borders, not drawing up new ones!

Indeed the only people who stand to benefit from the break-up of existing bourgeois states are local capitalists and politicians, who will be able to award themselves grander-sounding titles and acquire a smaller backyard to be "king of the castle" in! The working class should never collaborate with this "new class" of potential exploiters.

So-called "leftists" who scream from the rooftops for things like "Scottish independence" baffle me.

One cannot secede from a globalized economic system. There can be no national solutions to the crisis of capitalism

[Hivemind]

Seceding from a country won't change the fact that capitalism will still exist there. Even if a socialist-type of revolution would happen that has its aim the secession from a country (which sounds absurd and pointless from the onset), it cannot and will not create socialism in its new country, and at best what it will accomplish is further dividing the working class.

Why would it do that? Well, more often than not, secessionist groups are generally not left wing, and a lot of the time their mantra is secession based on racial, religious, or other reactionary backgrounds. To them, it doesn't matter if you're working class or not, because they're more concerned with other attributes, such as a collective background. So, the rupture between a country and its secessionistic offspring will only further divide the working class, create more unnecessary borders and states, and create pointless tension (between ethnic backgrounds or faiths) instead of advancing the class struggle against the ruling class or capitalism in general.

Whatever minuscule victory gained from secession is offset by the increasingly negative aspects that will flourish.

[bcbm]

i think a secessionist idea like that advocated in something like 'call (http://www.bloom0101.org/call.pdf)' has more potential than any tired old national liberation-esque scheme.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Secession as a short term tactic or strategy depends on the conditions as to whether it is useful or not ... secession as an end goal defeats internationalism and ignores the economic interdependence of our modern world.

[Comrade Chernov]

Ultimately, I think that Secessionist movements should be allowed to secede, should it truly be shown that the people of that region, in their majority, wish to do so. The will of the People, no matter their ideology, should be what every Leftist strives to represent and provide for.

[Anti-White]

Secession FROM a socialist state --- no.
Secession FOR a socialist state --- by all and any means.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

I have no problem with the tactic of seccession per se, but it all depends on the particular movement and their goals.

Thing is, seccessionism in the U.S. has some rather....unfortunate implications (and how). Most seccessionists in America are stridently right-wing in their outlook.

The thing is though...and take this from someone who lives here....if the South did try to secede from the Union again, it would degenerate into a third-world hellhole within a fucking decade. The southern states gobble up more federal aid money then any other place in the United States, and without that cash....well, you don't want to know what would happen.

.....Now that I think about it, how come the blue and purple states never threaten to secede? That would make the neo-confederates head spin!

[argeiphontes]

Thinking of moving to Vermont?

"the Second Vermont Republic stated it had 125 card-carrying members"

LOL thanks I had no idea this was "going on". Depending on what you mean by "going on" I guess. ;-)

There's no way to actually secede but I don't really think there's a need to. Just institute some self-rule. In addition to things that we could do to create self-managing workplaces like Mondragon, they could be done in a certain geographical area in order to help each other out in other ways and live in an area that's amenable to our interests.

I don't think it's a horrible idea overall.

[Popular Front of Judea]

Now that's "starving the beast" that I can get behind! :grin:


The thing is though...and take this from someone who lives here....if the South did try to secede from the Union again, it would degenerate into a third-world hellhole within a fucking decade. The southern states gobble up more federal aid money then any other place in the United States, and without that cash....well, you don't want to know what would happen.

.....Now that I think about it, how come the blue and purple states never threaten to secede? That would make the neo-confederates head spin!

[argeiphontes]

The nutters ARE doing it.

Yeah, I also want to see solutions in my lifetime. Isn't giving up real action today just a way to put it off forever? An excuse to avoid real action? The law doesn't prevent anybody from starting worker cooperatives.

To tie into another thread, what if the left really could do something for you? We are all living our lives right now. Think of the example it could give to others. I think too much theoretical thinking is a real problem. We are all born into a world that is given and need to take appropriate action in light of our circumstances. Mondragon proves that you don't need to worry about socialism in one country vs. the world, when you can just have socialism in one enterprise. It's real and you can have it right now...

It can be in Vermont I like hiking ;-)

[Anti-White]

I have no problem with the tactic of seccession per se, but it all depends on the particular movement and their goals.

Thing is, seccessionism in the U.S. has some rather....unfortunate implications (and how). Most seccessionists in America are stridently right-wing in their outlook.

The thing is though...and take this from someone who lives here....if the South did try to secede from the Union again, it would degenerate into a third-world hellhole within a fucking decade. The southern states gobble up more federal aid money then any other place in the United States, and without that cash....well, you don't want to know what would happen.

.....Now that I think about it, how come the blue and purple states never threaten to secede? That would make the neo-confederates head spin!

Vermont and Hawaii have vibrant secession movements. NYC was threatening to secede from the Union on the eve of the Civil War. You are also wrong about the South.

[Popular Front of Judea]

Advocate of secession -- or autonomy -- of the 'Black Belt' AW?


Vermont and Hawaii have vibrant secession movements. NYC was threatening to secede from the Union on the eve of the Civil War. You are also wrong about the South.

[Ritzy Cat]

It would be a case by case scenario, but in general, I think secession is the supreme means of expression.

[A.J.]

I am absolutely opposed to separatism everywhere - from Tibet to Scotland to the Basque Country. It is petit-bourgeois obscurantism.

Dividing the working class up into micro-states does not benefit our cause. We should be tearing down national borders, not drawing up new ones!

Indeed the only people who stand to benefit from the break-up of existing bourgeois states are local capitalists and politicians, who will be able to award themselves grander-sounding titles and acquire a smaller backyard to be "king of the castle" in! The working class should never collaborate with this "new class" of potential exploiters.

So-called "leftists" who scream from the rooftops for things like "Scottish independence" baffle me.

One cannot secede from a globalized economic system. There can be no national solutions to the crisis of capitalism

Whilst I agree scottish 'natitionalism' is reactionary, I must beg to differ with your assertion that the liberation movement of the basques, as a genuinely oppressed nation, falls into the same category.

Think about it like this; whereas the coming into being of an 'independent' scotland would actually serve to strengthen british capital and weaken the labour movement the liberation of the basque nation would, in contrast, deal spanish capitalism a severe blow.

[Rural Comrade]

I will tell you this any secessionist movement in the US is against our wishes and create many smaller nationalist states.

[Popular Front of Judea]

"Our wishes"? And who are you?


I will tell you this any secessionist movement in the US is against our wishes and create many smaller nationalist states.

[Rural Comrade]

Our leftist wishes to achieve communism. Would be easier to make the US a socialist state (by means of revolution) than every single US state.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Not automatically.

Say a slice of Colombia wanted to secede and politically alligned itself more towards Venezuela.

Venezuela certainly has a lot to be desired but Colombia is a country where leftists are routinely murdered.

In this example such a secession would be progressive for the working class provided they will have political control.

Except that this would never happen without an subsequent immediate American invasion.

[BIXX]

Our leftist wishes to achieve communism. Would be easier to make the US a socialist state (by means of revolution) than every single US state.

Who are you and where are your revolutionary credentials?

:laugh:

In all seriousness, I don't really care for secessionist tactics, but if a group got close and I thought they were gonna go the socialist route then I might go live there.

[Popular Front of Judea]

Sorry but Washington D.C. is not St. Petersburg. Sending out a tweet that the revolution has arrived simply is not going to cut it in the Mountain West and the Confederacy.


Our leftist wishes to achieve communism. Would be easier to make the US a socialist state (by means of revolution) than every single US state.

[Rural Comrade]

The US regardless of what ideology is going into civil war in the future and Washington will sink like a ship because their enemy will be the people of the United States. Succeeding States would have to fight a hard battle anyway so once again why fight many times in bloody conflict when you can have one and a united proletariat.

[Comrade Chernov]

Our leftist wishes to achieve communism. Would be easier to make the US a socialist state (by means of revolution) than every single US state.

Uh...no, it wouldn't. It would lead to the bloodiest civil war in modern history that the Leftists wouldn't even be guaranteed to win.


The US regardless of what ideology is going into civil war in the future and Washington will sink like a ship because their enemy will be the people of the United States. Succeeding States would have to fight a hard battle anyway so once again why fight many times in bloody conflict when you can have one and a united proletariat.

You're far too idealist, my friend. There will be no united proletariat in the United States. The "American Dream" - that the lower classes can rise to the ranks of the wealthy in their lifetime - is far too infectious amongst the lower and middle classes. Not to mention, the U.S. Military is a generally conservative-minded establishment, and it's also the most powerful in the world. Not to mention, the seceding states would likely only be seceding because of the fact that they wouldn't want to be part of the end result of a leftist revolution. Why keep them? Why keep Conservatives in a leftist state? Good riddance is what I say.

[Popular Front of Judea]

For many of us contemplating secession it is the prospect of leaving the reactionary influence of the South behind that interests us.

http://www.salon.com/2013/02/05/the_white_souths_last_defeat/

[Rural Comrade]

So your telling me we shouldn't spread try to make the world communist? Our goals are an international one so we do need those conservative minded regions and we have to make them our allies by teaching them the truth about Marxism.

As for the US military it may be the strongest in the world and our enemy but they can in fact be defeated as in both the past and present. The American dream is also declining in the people as they are seeing how difficult it is and they just yearn for an the basics in life.

[Popular Front of Judea]

You go right on down to Mississippi to spread the good news about Marxism. I'll be waiting up here. I'll keep a cold local brew just for you in the refrigerator.


So your telling me we shouldn't spread try to make the world communist? Our goals are an international one so we do need those conservative minded regions and we have to make them our allies by teaching them the truth about Marxism.

[Rural Comrade]

You seem to keep forgetting that Communism/Anarchism have a goals for all of human society. So regardless sometime or another we will be forced to take the American South and I see no point in fracturing the US when we can get it all in one revolution as opposed to fifty despite how bloody and hard said revolution will be.

[--Navarro--]

Colombia is a country where leftists are routinely murdered

source on that?

[Popular Front of Judea]

http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/05/23/colombias-peasants-and-workers-under-fire/print

What a friend we have in Google. (Or DuckDuckGo.)




source on that?

[--Navarro--]

In this example such a secession would be progressive for the working class provided they will have political control.

It may be true that the situation of unionist is difficult in Colombia. But people are routinely murdered in Colombia and Venezuela, more so in Venezuela because the government doesn't provide the conditions for justice to punish murderers. And the working class is the one that suffer the most, because they don't have the means to protect themselves, as the rich does.

Your analogy is invalid.