The Christian Roots of Leftism

[Imperius]

Greetings comrades, I have a serious question for you. Are you all atheists? If so, from where do you derive your sympathies for the oppressed, the poor, the working class, etc.? Isn't your ideology really secularized Christianity? Don't you see that Marxism is isomorphic to Christian mythology? Clearly there is no scientific, natural or rational justification for revolutionary leftism, so is it just something you invented? Is it a pose? Is it nostalgia for a lost cause, like Civil War reenactments? Were you abused by capitalists as children? I am sincerely perplexed about the basis of your ideology. Thank you.

[Zealot]

No, Karl Marx noted that there was a type of social theft taking place daily within capitalism. The working class are exploited by the bourgeois class, who reap all of the profits that were made by the workers. It's not that we care for the poor because Jesus said so, it's because class struggle, exploitation, and imperialism are real things that need no reference to the bible.

[bcbm]

igtt 3/10


Greetings comrades, I have a serious question for you. Are you all atheists?

not 'all' by any means, but i am personally.


If so, from where do you derive your sympathies for the oppressed, the poor, the working class, etc.?

basic human decency


Isn't your ideology really secularized Christianity?

not really. christianity is primarily concerned with saving your soul and while it does have a secular aspect that is concerned with the poor and the oppressed this is true of other religions.


Clearly there is no scientific, natural or rational justification for revolutionary leftism

how is this 'clearly?'


Thank you.

you're welcome

[Imperius]

Basic human decency, fair enough. Of course there are other basic human traits, such as aggression, greed, will to power, religiosity, etc. -- what makes them less valid than your form of decency?

[Ace High]

Troll post, kind of entertaining though, especially the part about being abused by capitalists and the Civil War reenactments :laugh:

If you are being serious (which you're obviously not), the Bible is probably one of the most immoral books in existence and advocates genocide, slavery, and racism. Some of Jesus' philosophies were quite admirable but there is his one quote, "if you think I have come to bring peace you are mistaken, I have come to bring the sword." So yeah, I'm definitely not getting my ideas from that religion or any religion for that matter.

[bcbm]

Basic human decency, fair enough. Of course there are other basic human traits, such as aggression, greed, will to power, religiosity, etc. -- what makes them less valid than your form of decency?

it is in my self-interest to ensure the survival of my species and the planet upon which it is located which is best accomplished through cooperation. i would also disagree that all of those are 'basic' human traits.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

While I might agree that this is to a degree true, it's only insofar as Christianity is foundational vis- Western philosophical and political thought generally. One can find similar vestiges of Christian thought in pretty much everything that came out of the enlightenment, and even trace contemporary "New Atheism" to it. Of course, one might be tempted to ask, "So what?" Christianity having dominated Western discourse and thereby "coloured" it is certainly interesting, and warrants understanding, but if you're trying to be like, "Dur, therefore Marxism = Religion!" you might as well say, "Dur, therefore liberal democracy, science, and existentialism = Religion!"

[Zostrianos]

I'm not an atheist, no, and I don't think religion is incompatible with socialism as long as it remains a personal thing. Most marxists are atheists though, and a few are anti-theists. You have to understand that Marx's only experience of religion was the oppressive church of the ruling class and colonialism, and so his view of religion in general was tainted by that. Marx's generalized negative assessment of religion is obsolete nowadays, but unfortunately there are still many irrational, extreme anti-theists who cling to it like dogma, the "all religion is bad and should be outlawed period\opium of the masses" type, who uncritically condemn all religion without bothering to look into its good aspects, spirituality, etc. That's something I may never understand. We might as well dismiss Socialism as well, because of all the bad stuff 20th century dictators did in its name.

As for socialism I think it's the best system of government to ensure that everyone benefits, and so I see it as the most just. No system is perfect, but socialism is the closest. Ethics justice and morality do not require a religious backing. Post-Enlightenment values are not religious by nature, on the contrary, they grew out of a rebellion against the brutal rule of the Church.

That being said, a few prominent 19th century socialists were indeed Christians and derived socialist doctrines from Christianity. Henri Esquiros is a prime example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri-Fran%C3%A7ois-Alphonse_Esquiros
As well as the French occultist Eliphas Levi, who was also a Catholic priest at one point, and wrote a treatise (with feminist activist Flora Tristan) calling for equality for women.

[Luís Henrique]

Marx's generalized negative assessment of religion is obsolete nowadays, but unfortunately there are still many irrational, extreme anti-theists who cling to it like dogma, the "all religion is bad and should be outlawed period\opium of the masses" type, who uncritically condemn all religion without bothering to look into its good aspects, spirituality, etc. That's something I may never understand. We might as well dismiss Socialism as well, because of all the bad stuff 20th century dictators did in its name.

Most extreme anti-theists that I am informed of are not Marxists, though, and indeed tend to lump Marxism with religion and oppose it on such basis.

Luís Henrique

[The Douche]

Are you all atheists?

Personally I am an "agnostic anti-theist" if we want to be technical about it.


from where do you derive your sympathies for the oppressed, the poor, the working class, etc.?

First of all, its not really sympathy. The premise of the question is flawed because it assumes that we ourselves, are not workers, which most of us on here are. So its not about sympathy for others, but about meeting our own material needs.


Isn't your ideology really secularized Christianity?

Nah, not really. I mean, the idea of self-sacrifice and subservience are kind of antithetical to communism. And that doesn't even begin to deal with things like the protestant work ethic.


Clearly there is no scientific, natural or rational justification for revolutionary leftism, so is it just something you invented?

Don't workers create value by adding their labor to raw materials? Isn't a portion of this value extracted by the boss from the wage that is paid to the worker? Isn't the struggle of the worker against the boss, in this context, extremely rational?


Is it nostalgia for a lost cause, like Civil War reenactments?

Lol guize I have a crystal ball and it told me that history is over.


Were you abused by capitalists as children?

Nah, child labor laws ensured that I would not be abused by capitalists until I was at least 16 years of age.

[Philosophos]

Some of Jesus' philosophies were quite admirable but there is his one quote, "if you think I have come to bring peace you are mistaken, I have come to bring the sword." So yeah, I'm definitely not getting my ideas from that religion or any religion for that matter.

He meant that he won't bring peace with his words but the sword because most people won't believe him and that they will try to fight the ones that believe him.

Just clearing this out because I used to be a christian and I used to study the bible a lot so yeah that was actually what he meant. On the other hand anyone can read whatever s/he wants so...

[Ace High]

He meant that he won't bring peace with his words but the sword because most people won't believe him and that they will try to fight the ones that believe him.

Just clearing this out because I used to be a christian and I used to study the bible a lot so yeah that was actually what he meant. On the other hand anyone can read whatever s/he wants so...

Ah ok I understand that, but how does one generally bring peace using a sword? :confused: Did you mean that the sword is for defense against those who would fight people that believed him?

I used to be a Christian too by the way, and I still like studying religious texts.

[LuckyStrikes]

The ideological theory of the left stems from class struggle, which, looking back through history, has been present in all of modern/written history. I, personally, am a Marxist. This means that I struggle to end classism as a whole; in support of the rights of humanity, as to be liberated from Capitalisms quasi-freedoms.

Now, just for the record, I am not an atheist.

[Richard Roth]

I would argue that science and reason can lead to right wing conclusions. Darwinism and New Athiesm for example are very right wing. Many scientists, statisticians and economists are raging liberals or conservatives.

You can justify greed and selfishness by reason and logic. Greed and wealth for example creates more wealth and develops the world. Its why the whole God damn western world is liberal economically. We live under a kind of medical totalitarianism where the world is run by accountants and economists. Science and maths has been elevated as the highest ideal so that the ruling class justifies everything with statistics and numbers.

Karl Marx's father was a Jew and he formed his opinions in a Christian world. Jesus preached philosophy and justice. Similarly, Marxism is about philosophy and justice. Christianity and Marxism have more in common than they do with liberalism because liberals like John Stuart Mill were constrained by reason. Classical liberalism is an anti-philosophy and the only anti-philosophy is nihilism.

[LovingEmbrace]

Greetings comrades, I have a serious question for you. Are you all atheists? If so, from where do you derive your sympathies for the oppressed, the poor, the working class, etc.? Isn't your ideology really secularized Christianity? Don't you see that Marxism is isomorphic to Christian mythology? Clearly there is no scientific, natural or rational justification for revolutionary leftism, so is it just something you invented? Is it a pose? Is it nostalgia for a lost cause, like Civil War reenactments? Were you abused by capitalists as children? I am sincerely perplexed about the basis of your ideology. Thank you.

i am not an atheist. the mind is divine and connected with the fundamental oneness consciousness, of which we all are separated parts. we are left to cry in the wilderness, and to fend for ourselves against the wild beasts of our inner daemons.

everyone are oppressed. nobody is oppressed. society is a theatre built on pretending. i am an oppressed, and i am an oppressor.

i am a leftist out of necessity. i am unable to work in an ordered environment. i am violent and asocial. i steal from my employers. i once hit my employer. i leave work whenever i feel for it. i dropped out of school when i was 14, seventh grade. i cheat, i lie, i steal, i sit on my ass doing nothing.

i have no education, no work experience (none which i could show for prospective employers, since i got kicked from all jobs i done for sloppy performance, sabotage or indecency). :)

there's no problem for me, since i leech off welfare money provided by hard-working honest people like you and you oh-so-well-adjusted middle class parents. yet i hate you because you are well-adjusted.

i am also brown and i hate white people.

:)

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

i'm a scientologist

[Jimmie Higgins]

Greetings comrades, I have a serious question for you. Are you all atheists?Not everyone, but many. i am; it's one of the things i learned from being catholic.
If so, from where do you derive your sympathies for the oppressed, the poor, the working class, etc.being poor and working class is good motivation. The shit isn't really hiding that much, so sympathy yeah, but more importantly solidarity. and it's solidarity based on mutual interests -- that the part that's harder to see because people get divided by nationality, ethicity, um, religion.
Isn't your ideology really secularized Christianity? Don't you see that Marxism is isomorphic to Christian mythology?that's an interesting point (if you're still even reading this) and so i'd have to say that actually, the answer is, in fact... no... and no. but there is a relationship or connection there I think. earlier concepts of egalitarian societies were often expressed in religious form; religious communes, christian utopias and probably similar things in other religions as well. this exists even to day with things like revolutionary theology and catholic worker and various communes and whatnot. but that's not ideology, that's just a desire for a just world where people treat eachother as equals. it's an attractive ideal; liberalism offers this, free market ideas offer this; some popular entertainment also has aspects of this.
Clearly there is no scientific, natural or rational justification for revolutionary leftism, so is it just something you invented?no, this is what seperates revolutionary socialism from religious or utopian or commune socialisms: it's not based on whishing really hard or trying our best to have a better world and better lives, it's based on existing conflicts and an attempt to understand why the material world is like it is and how it can realistically be different.

Did God make capitalism and put the 1% in charge? No, this is a man made situation. it doesn't matter what people spiritually believe, you can still get kicked out of your house or fired because for the enrichment of a few.. Or you can fight back and try and build a more democratic and egalitarian society.


Is it a pose?yes, I call it blue steel.
Is it nostalgia for a lost cause, like Civil War reenactments? I thought we won that war.
Were you abused by capitalists as children?his name was richie rich and he used to have his butler beat the crap out of me every day in junior high and then they force-fed me diamonds one day and i had to go to the emergency room. my father was laid off after richie had bought out the company he worked for so we didn't have health coverage and ended up with massive debt. The bank richie owned took our house and then he gave someone 10,000 bucks to follow my family around and mock us.


I am sincerely perplexed about the basis of your ideology.yes.
Thank you.you're welcome.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Well, the concept of 'do unto others' predates Christianity by quite a few years. Kong Fu Zi was saying the exact same thing centuries before Jesus was even born. Many of the Greek philosophers were arguing the same point.

[Klaatu]

In reply to the OP:

Religion or not (in my humble opinion) this is what it is really all about

All You Need Is Love - The Beatles
CLEtGRUrtJo

[Turinbaar]

Capitalism has christianity at its roots, and the ownership and command of devoted followers is the desire of every capitalist over his workforce, just as obedience was the repeatedly expressed injunction by christ to his apostles (or else everlasting torture). Whilst doing this, both attempt to cover over the strict and violent hierarchy with an ideology of harmony that claims all are equal.

Egalitarianism administered by an all powerful god is an obvious contradiction. One is either a free and equal person or one is a servant to a lord, one cannot be both.

The scientific roots of Marxist materialism are pre-christian, and arise from Epicurean atomism. They analyze objective conditions of society like class relations, which christianity has never done, and propose the abolition of the old order, whereas christianity holds that the powers that be are ordained by heaven, and that the only true order to desire is the hereafter.

[Crux]

Greetings comrades, I have a serious question for you. Are you all atheists? If so, from where do you derive your sympathies for the oppressed, the poor, the working class, etc.? Isn't your ideology really secularized Christianity? Don't you see that Marxism is isomorphic to Christian mythology? Clearly there is no scientific, natural or rational justification for revolutionary leftism, so is it just something you invented? Is it a pose? Is it nostalgia for a lost cause, like Civil War reenactments? Were you abused by capitalists as children? I am sincerely perplexed about the basis of your ideology. Thank you.
We're not your comrades. I for one am not motivated so much by sympathy as I am by my own experiences and the experiences of those around me. I grew up poor and am still, in the context of the society I live in, poor. This is from where I derive my moral objections to the present system, if that's what you are asking. A base material point if you so will.

Marxism however is not a moral objection to capitalism and unlike the various ideological defenders of capitalism our viewpoints is in fact not derived from a moralistic view of human nature. I do not believe moral virtue can change the conditions of capitalism nor do I believe that poverty is created from a failure to live up to what is essentially a Protestant work ethic. I e that the harder you work the better you will be rewarded and that poverty thus is essentially derived from the sin of laziness.

At least the idea of being rewarded in the afterlife makes a certain kind of sense whereas the secularized version of this position posits that the heavens and hells on earth exist based on moral virtue. There's also a deeply irrational side to this argument in that it's basically an idea of meritocracy purely based on self-fulfilling prophecies. While this might ease your conscience or stroke your ego depending on your persuasion every honest defender of capitalism must know that the poverty of the many and riches of the few cannot be separated. So while it might claim to be about moral virtue (i e a lack of lazyness) or a superior intellect capitalism requires people to be poor.

Capitalism, as an observable economic system, is obscured behind a fundamentally religious view of human nature. Even those who defend capitalism who profess sympathy for the poor cannot get around this fundamental problem to want to abolish the conditions under which the poor live without abolishing the system that created those conditions is of course an utopian goal. And to the capitalist who mistakes capitalism for human nature of course abolishing capitalism must seem irrational, absurd, impossible. Just as in feudal age the idea of abolishing the ruling class then must have seemed absurd to those who genuinely believed the ruling class derived their mandate from an omnipotent religious force.

But history and material reality of course are not bound by such illusions.
Your defence is just as scientific as those historians of yore who tried to figure out the intricacies of the royals relation to the divine mandate. While relevant information might be derived from this research it cannot escape the fatal flaw of it's underlying premise at least not without questioning that premise itself.

[Fred]

Greetings comrades, I have a serious question for you. Are you all atheists? If so, from where do you derive your sympathies for the oppressed, the poor, the working class, etc.? Isn't your ideology really secularized Christianity? Don't you see that Marxism is isomorphic to Christian mythology? Clearly there is no scientific, natural or rational justification for revolutionary leftism, so is it just something you invented? Is it a pose? Is it nostalgia for a lost cause, like Civil War reenactments? Were you abused by capitalists as children? I am sincerely perplexed about the basis of your ideology. Thank you.

Yes, I am an atheist, as any self-professed Marxist should be. My ideology is diametrically opposed to Christianity. How?

1. Christianity, along with all other religions are idealistic. Marxism is materialistic.

2. Religion is based on blind beliefs, Marxism on reason and understanding.

3. Christian Morals are based on "God's word." Marxian values are humanistic and based on the idea of making a world in which there is no want. The main point is not simple equality -- the point is actually for people to have so much more.

So Marxism may have some relationship to certain strains of humanism that emanated from the church, but it something entirely different.

[RedBen]

Greetings comrades, I have a serious question for you. Are you all atheists? If so, from where do you derive your sympathies for the oppressed, the poor, the working class, etc.? Isn't your ideology really secularized Christianity? Don't you see that Marxism is isomorphic to Christian mythology? Clearly there is no scientific, natural or rational justification for revolutionary leftism, so is it just something you invented? Is it a pose? Is it nostalgia for a lost cause, like Civil War reenactments? Were you abused by capitalists as children? I am sincerely perplexed about the basis of your ideology. Thank you.
i'm an atheist, to me it makes me feel like i have to take responsibility for my actions, and i feel more alive acknowledging that i have only one life to live. i grew up homeless in a city where people downtown live in multi-million dollar condos. i know poverty well, i feel it's made me strong. marxism is not secularized christianity. there are social sciences, marxism is one of them and every one living free from oppression and wage slavery not rational? in a word for your question about being abused by capitalism "yes". i don't see myself as a victim though, suffering can build character in my opinion. you sir, are an asshat.

[RedBen]

We're not your comrades. I for one am not motivated so much by sympathy as I am by my own experiences and the experiences of those around me. I grew up poor and am still, in the context of the society I live in, poor. This is from where I derive my moral objections to the present system, if that's what you are asking. A base material point if you so will.

Marxism however is a moral objection to capitalism and unlike the various ideological defenders of capitalism our viewpoints is in fact not derived from a moralistic view of human nature. I do not believe moral virtue can change the conditions of capitalism nor do I believe that poverty is created from a failure to live up to what is essentially a Protestant work ethic. I e that the harder you work the better you will be rewarded and that poverty thus is essentially derived from the sin of laziness.

At least the idea of being rewarded in the afterlife makes a certain kind of sense whereas the secularized version of this position posits that the heavens and hells on earth exist based on moral virtue. There's also a deeply irrational side to this argument in that it's basically an idea of meritocracy purely based on self-fulfilling prophecies. While this might ease your conscience or stroke your ego depending on your persuasion every honest defender of capitalism must know that the poverty of the many and riches of the few cannot be separated. So while it might claim to be about moral virtue (i e a lack of lazyness) or a superior intellect capitalism requires people to be poor.

Capitalism, as an observable economic system, is obscured behind a fundamentally religious view of human nature. Even those who defend capitalism who profess sympathy for the poor cannot get around this fundamental problem to want to abolish the conditions under which the poor live without abolishing the system that created those conditions is of course an utopian goal. And to the capitalist who mistakes capitalism for human nature of course abolishing capitalism must seem irrational, absurd, impossible. Just as in feudal age the idea of abolishing the ruling class then must have seemed absurd to those who genuinely believed the ruling class derived their mandate from an omnipotent religious force.

But history and material reality of course are not bound by such illusions.
Your defence is just as scientific as those historians of yore who tried to figure out the intricacies of the royals relation to the divine mandate. While relevant information might be derived from this research it cannot escape the fatal flaw of it's underlying premise at least not without questioning that premise itself.
i don't know who you are or where you're from, but will you marry me?:laugh: