Schools in an Anarchist society?

[UncleLenin]

I have wondered for a long time how schools would work in an Anarchist society.
There would have to be some sort of authority as not many people would actually listen to the teacher.

I myself go to school and I know for a fact that if the teacher had no authority, very little people would listen to him/her. They would choose when they want to go to class and when they do attend, they would rarely listen if they know they don't have to.

Could someone please put forward some theories as to how this would work?

[roy]

There would be no anarchist society as opposed to a communist society. The leftist tendencies of today would not have a role to play in organising a communist society. Now although im not one for speculation, your idea about the students doing whatever they want sounds great to me.

[Sotionov]

Read these chapters:


J.5.13 What are Modern Schools? (http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secJ5.html#secj513)


J.6 What methods of child rearing do anarchists advocate? (http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secJ6.html)
J.6.1 What are the main obstacles to raising free children? (http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secJ6.html#secj61)
J.6.2 What are some examples of libertarian child-rearing methods? (http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secJ6.html#secj62)
J.6.3 If children have nothing to fear, how can they be good? (http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secJ6.html#secj63)
J.6.4 Isn't "libertarian child-rearing" just another name for spoiling the child? (http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secJ6.html#secj64)
J.6.5 What is the anarchist position on teenage sexual liberation? (http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secJ6.html#secj65)
J.6.6 But isn't this concern with sexual liberation just a distraction from revolution? (http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secJ6.html#secj66)

[UncleLenin]

There would be no anarchist society as opposed to a communist society. The leftist tendencies of today would not have a role to play in organising a communist society. Now although im not one for speculation, your idea about the students doing whatever they want sounds great to me.

You must be a student. I find it hard to believe that an adult would say such a thing. Also, if students did what they want, they wouldn't actually learn anything and learning is generally what school is for.

[Hermes]

I think you're trying too hard to transplant schools as they exist today into a future society. That is, you see schools, today, as needing a certain kind of authority that won't exist in the future (or, might not exist).

I don't think school needs to be the oppressive factory-line apparatus it is in today's society, though. You can even see certain examples of schools existing in this society that have worked on remarkably different paradigms. For example, I thought Ferrer's The Origins and the Ideals of the Modern School was an interesting look at a different way that schools could operate, which, while not without 'authority', was remarkably different than how it is today. You could also look at Freire's problem-solving method of education, which was/is incredibly egalitarian, focusing on the community's own input and needs.

Apologies that I'm not great at writing long posts, I hope this helps even a little bit.

[roy]

Schools in capitalism exist essentially to produce productive workers. You seem to be relying on the assumption that people need to be made to do stuff or they'll just sit around, which is totally antithetical to communism: a society without coercion. There's no way of knowing what form education will take in communism, but it certainly won't resemble anything today.

[RedBen]

You must be a student. I find it hard to believe that an adult would say such a thing. Also, if students did what they want, they wouldn't actually learn anything and learning is generally what school is for.
it would in part be up to the parents to teach their children the importance of an education and force parents to be more involved with their children... although some would say "awww, RULES MAN! that sucks" also i would imagine teachers have a say in who they would personally invest their time in? freedom right?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Schools in capitalism exist essentially to produce productive workers. You seem to be relying on the assumption that people need to be made to do stuff or they'll just sit around, which is totally antithetical to communism: a society without coercion. There's no way of knowing what form education will take in communism, but it certainly won't resemble anything today.

This is a good starting point. It's not a case of altering the form of a school, but rather starting from the premise that the underlying function of education would be different in a communist society.

Whereas today, the function of education is to equip young people with skills necessary for successful entrance into the labour force, the function of education in a communist society would surely be more relaxed - education would function as a conduit to knowledge. In other words, in a communist society, the function of education would be to facilitate whatever it is students wanted to learn.

Now, this doesn't need to lend itself to the inevitability of the 'students do what they want' in some sort of mad cap, anarchic way. Indeed, education is underestimated as an academic field. Just as we inform our political beliefs/worldviews by studying the philosophers of the past, so we should inform future educational practice by listening to current pedagogical opinion and research.

So one could imagine that in the future, a very broad curriculum designed to ensure the most basic skills are learned by all might be designed by educational experts at a local level (teachers, headteachers in conjunction with pedagogical researchers), whilst students would have greater autonomy in what they actually wanted to learn, and about the wider school experience, in terms of issues related to hierarchy, authority, discipline etc.

[Polaris]

This made me think of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School

You might want to check that out. The kids get to choose which lessons they attend, if any at all, and decisions are made democratically. I'm sure its not a perfect model for an anarchist school, but it shows that kids will choose to learn when given the opportunity. Most if not all children are naturally curious of the world around them and seek answers; schools provide an outlet to satisfy this. Many kids actually enjoy (!) school, whether that be because of the opportunity to socialize or because they enjoy learning and the sense of accomplishment that brings. Those who do not enjoy school feel that way because of a negative learning environment where they are treated as slaves and forced to learn. Once you are forced to do something, the pleasure is taken out of it; this same phenomenon is seen with jobs today.

I hope that in such an anarchist school, kids would not be forced to learn what they do not want to. Perhaps I am biased as teenager myself, but today's schools seem to teach some things which are rather arbitrary and a waste of time. I'm not saying that chemistry shouldn't be taught, but I am saying that it is pointless to memorize the name of every element on the Periodic table.

Children are not helpless creatures. They can think for themselves and decide whether or not something is worth learning. Their future can be trusted in their own hands.

[RedBen]

aside from reading, writing and STEM courses, alot of skills might be learned on the trade also. i learned carpentry/roofing/flooring/masonry/brick laying/cabinet refacing/plumbing by working with mentors. i learned automotive technology (lot of physics and math) in school but if the basics are covered, most of what helps society possible in a technical sense may be learned through apprenticeship. this is all without monetary incentive or exploitation of course.

[roy]

it would in part be up to the parents to teach their children the importance of an education and force parents to be more involved with their children... although some would say "awww, RULES MAN! that sucks" also i would imagine teachers have a say in who they would personally invest their time in? freedom right?

Aren't parents supposed to do that now anyway? What makes you think the family unit will manifest the same way in communism as it does now? Rules do suck; the idea of communism is that no one should be forced to do anything and people will therefore develop freely. We want a society where people live for themselves and do what makes them happy, not one where everyone gets squeezed through a system geared towards maximum productivity, which is of course what 'the importance of education' is about now.

[RedBen]

Children are not helpless creatures. They can think for themselves and decide whether or not something is worth learning. Their future can be trusted in their own hands.
physics and math shouldn't be left out. if a kid says "no school!!!" what then? not everyone can be an artist, we will needs technicians, men who can shovel and swing a hammer or turn a wrench. i understand the choice aspect of it, but not every kid is gonna want to do necessary tasks. what about shortage of skilled tradesmen? society runs well because of motor vehicles, garbagemen, plumbers, ect.

[RedBen]

Aren't parents supposed to do that now anyway? What makes you think the family unit will manifest the same way in communism as it does now? Rules do suck; the idea of communism is that no one should be forced to do anything and people will therefore develop freely. We want a society where people live for themselves and do what makes them happy, not one where everyone gets squeezed through a system geared towards maximum productivity, which is of course what 'the importance of education' is about now.
we agree, i didn't mean to come off as condescending. i will check my dry sense of humor. i do not believe in being forced to do anything. i just think that some things are essential(this is of course just my opinion, i realize not the word of deity). i think many parents fail their children, being on this board, i obviously feel the system does. i think the family unit will become stronger once the shackles of wage slavery are shaken off. i just have a worried mindset. i think some things should be encouraged, maybe even slightly (not forced, directly or otherwise) more because they are needed for people to live above a certain standard of living.

[roy]

we agree, i didn't mean to come off as condescending. i will check my dry sense of humor. i do not believe in being forced to do anything. i just think that some things are essential(this is of course just my opinion, i realize not the word of deity). i think many parents fail their children, being on this board, i obviously feel the system does. i think the family unit will become stronger once the shackles of wage slavery are shaken off. i just have a worried mindset. i think some things should be encouraged, maybe even slightly (not forced, directly or otherwise) more because they are needed for people to live above a certain standard of living.

No worries. In the context of capitalism I agree that kids should be encouraged to pay attention at school because unfortunately that is usually a prerequisite for attaining a decent standard of living later in life. Of course there's always the military and shit but :/

[UncleLenin]

The kids get to choose which lessons they attend, if any at all, and decisions are made democratically. I'm sure its not a perfect model for an anarchist school, but it shows that kids will choose to learn when given the opportunity. Most if not all children are naturally curious of the world around them and seek answers; schools provide an outlet to satisfy this. Many kids actually enjoy (!) school, whether that be because of the opportunity to socialize or because they enjoy learning and the sense of accomplishment that brings. Those who do not enjoy school feel that way because of a negative learning environment where they are treated as slaves and forced to learn. Once you are forced to do something, the pleasure is taken out of it; this same phenomenon is seen with jobs today.

I hope that in such an anarchist school, kids would not be forced to learn what they do not want to. Perhaps I am biased as teenager myself, but today's schools seem to teach some things which are rather arbitrary and a waste of time. I'm not saying that chemistry shouldn't be taught, but I am saying that it is pointless to memorize the name of every element on the Periodic table.

Children are not helpless creatures. They can think for themselves and decide whether or not something is worth learning. Their future can be trusted in their own hands.

I totally agree. One of the most pointless things that is compulsory to learn in my school, is religion. I am not at all religious and the subject could be replaced with a full class of posting threads on RevLeft.

[UncleLenin]

No worries. In the context of capitalism I agree that kids should be encouraged to pay attention at school because unfortunately that is usually a prerequisite for attaining a decent standard of living later in life. Of course there's always the military and shit but :/

I do not understand why anybody would join the military. You could get killed. You may die of starvation because you have no job but at least you would not have died for a Capitalist/Imperialist army.

[Polaris]

Children are not helpless creatures. They can think for themselves and decide whether or not something is worth learning. Their future can be trusted in their own hands.physics and math shouldn't be left out.
:rolleyes: Are you saying that no kid wants to learn math and physics? Because I assure you that many prefer those subjects, including myself.


if a kid says "no school!!!" what then?
Then they wouldn't go to school. If an 'anarchist' society treats certain members of the community as slaves based on age and brain development, then that is no society I want to be part of.
Go back and read my whole post. Kids are inclined to want to learn. The school that I linked to is basically proof of this; its students excel on national exams yet are not forced to learn anything, even though they could spend all day socializing or playing video games if they chose.
Edit: And as others in this thread have said, what school would be like in such a society could be entirely different from what it is like now. It is possible that there wouldn't even be a 'school' per se to say no to.


not everyone can be an artist, we will needs technicians, men who can shovel and swing a hammer or turn a wrench.
1) Artists choose to be artists because they want to be artists instead of any other profession, not because they hate school. You are incorrectly assuming that everyone would be an artist if they could do anything they want.
2) Again, many people actually enjoy the STEM field and would love to be technicians and do not only choose that job because of our current wage slavery system.
3) Thank you for my daily dose of sexism.
4) All of those are pretty self explanatory jobs; you could even argue that they would be the jobs of those who didn't go to school due to their simplicity. Many jobs like that would probably be automated in a future society.


i understand the choice aspect of it, but not every kid is gonna want to do necessary tasks.
Kids wouldn't be doing any tasks, they would be learning how to do them.
And the tasks that are truly necessary for survival (building shelter, gathering/hunting food, etc.) are something that I'm pretty sure everyone would want to learn. Death is a frightening concept for most people.


what about shortage of skilled tradesmen? society runs well because of motor vehicles, garbagemen, plumbers, ect.
Aaannndd now we are into the 'jobs no one wants to do in a communist society' debate. There are plenty of thread already on this and I'm not getting into it. By the way, I would hardly call garbagemen and plumbers skilled tradesmen. See my answer above about your theoretical person who had refused to learn doing jobs like that (not that they would be forced to do them or even work at all, they would just be some of the only jobs they are capable of doing).

But here's a point: If you want something done, then you may just have to do it your self. If you wanted a car but no one was building them, then you'd just have to build it on your own.

You cannot force someone to do a labor that they don't want to do. That includes being educated.

[RedBen]

:rolleyes:
Kids wouldn't be doing any tasks, they would be learning how to do them.
And the tasks that are truly necessary for survival (building shelter, gathering/hunting food, etc.) are something that I'm pretty sure everyone would want to learn. Death is a frightening concept for most people.


Aaannndd now we are into the 'jobs no one wants to do in a communist society' debate. There are plenty of thread already on this and I'm not getting into it. By the way, I would hardly call garbagemen and plumbers skilled tradesmen. See my answer above about your theoretical person who had refused to learn doing jobs like that (not that they would be forced to do them or even work at all, they would just be some of the only jobs they are capable of doing).

But here's a point: If you want something done, then you may just have to do it your self. If you wanted a car but no one was building them, then you'd just have to build it on your own.

You cannot force someone to do a job that they don't want to do.
" Are you saying that no kid wants to learn math and physics? Because I assure you that many prefer those subjects, including myself.
Then they wouldn't go to school. If an 'anarchist' society treats certain members of the community as slaves based on age and brain development, then that is no society I want to be part of."

don't put words in my mouth, if there are certain shortages of people, there may be a dis equilibrium in certain fields, or people performing certain functions. i do not assume kids will collectively decide to ditch school, i don't believe school would resemble anything nowadays

"1) Artists choose to be artists because they want to be artists instead of any other profession, not because they hate school. You are incorrectly assuming that everyone would be an artist if they could do anything they want."

i am not suggesting artists are uneducated, only that art does not build a building, a railroad, load a barge ect. again disequilibrium potential, not guarantee.

"2) Again, many people actually enjoy the STEM field and would love to be technicians and do not only choose that job because of our current wage slavery system."

no shit, if i could be an engineer, i would love to pursue it.

"3) Thank you for my daily dose of sexism."

that was not intended to exclude women, but take it how you want. ask how many fucks i give.

"4) All of those are pretty self explanatory jobs; you could even argue that they would be the jobs of those who didn't go to school due to their simplicity. Many jobs like that would probably be automated in a future society."

plumbing not skilled? can you weld? solder? can you do it well? don't criticize honest or hard working people with snoberry(see how i just put words in your mouth? see how that works). since you have figured out how to automate this, please explain how this robot would repair/change/fix pipes in people's walls in their places of living? can a computer diagnose AND fix a car? let me tell you, a scan tool is no substitute for diagnosis, they only suggest certain sensors have certain readings. you must diagnose it. as for automated airplane/automobile/boat/train/diesel repair, if that were the case, millions of techs wouldn't have a job, or the opportunity to get one. hvac, electrical systems, hydraulic systems, transmissions and gear boxes... if they are so easy or easy to automate, why haven't people done it themselves or capitalists automated it to save money?

[Polaris]

don't put words in my mouth, if there are certain shortages of people, there may be a dis equilibrium in certain fields, or people performing certain functions. i do not assume kids will collectively decide to ditch school, i don't believe school would resemble anything nowadays
Why would certain fields being bigger be an issue? If there weren't any plumbers for instance, then people would just have to deal with either learning how to do the job of one themselves or not having plumbing.
I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was describing a society that forces people to do certain jobs/go to school. If that is not what you are suggesting, then my apologies.


i am not suggesting artists are uneducated, only that art does not build a building, a railroad, load a barge ect. again disequilibrium potential, not guarantee.
If it was necessary for those things to be done then those who wanted them to be done would have to do them. If you feel that society needs a railroad, then you're going to have to do that yourself and not impose your beliefs about what society needs on others.


that was not intended to exclude women, but take it how you want. ask how many fucks i give.
Try to use neutral language next time, pretty please. I know it can be an unconscious thing, just do your best :)


plumbing not skilled? can you weld? solder? can you do it well? don't criticize honest or hard working people with snoberry(see how i just put words in your mouth? see how that works).
I did not say that plumbing was self-explanatory. I said that "shoveling and swinging a hammer or turning a wrench," were self explanatory. And they are.


since you have figured out how to automate this, please explain how this robot would repair/change/fix pipes in people's walls in their places of living? can a computer diagnose AND fix a car? let me tell you, a scan tool is no substitute for diagnosis, they only suggest certain sensors have certain readings. you must diagnose it. as for automated airplane/automobile/boat/train/diesel repair, if that were the case, millions of techs wouldn't have a job, or the opportunity to get one. hvac, electrical systems, hydraulic systems, transmissions and gear boxes... if they are so easy or easy to automate, why haven't people done it themselves or capitalists automated it to save money?
Yes, someone would have to know how that whole mysterious 'tubes that run underground' thing works, until (if) this was eventually automated, assuming that a future society would have plumbing. And maybe not anyone would want to do that. But either you'd do your own plumbing, someone would value society's plumbing over their own job preferences*, or society would go without it. Millionth time: You cannot force someone to do a certain job. In an anarchist society, who would even do that?
*Hey, maybe someone wants to be a plumber. I have no idea.

You assume that the same things that exist in today's society would exist in a future society. Who is to say that anyone would even want diesel engines/cars/etc.? It is certain that many of the machines we use today harm the environment greatly, and there is no way they could operate in the same way they do today in the future; by that point, the Earth would have already been ruined/we would be out of fossil fuels. New machines invented could be specifically made in a way that makes their repair easily automated. But I am only spitting out theory here; I know just as much of what tomorrow will look like as anyone else.

Society is constantly moving forward in terms of tech. Just because something hasn't been made yet, doesn't mean it won't be in the future. As for why something hasn't already been invented: you can't jump from a simple diagnoses system to a machine that can fully repair cars on its own. It is a gradual process. Just because it hasn't already been done doesn't mean it is impossible though. Someone 200 years ago might have said that going to the moon was impossible, but we now know that it isn't.