The Minimum Wage

[Prinskaj]

Is there any good anti-capitalist or leftist perspective on the minimum wage?

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Until the existence of trade unions, the free competition of worker against worker did nothing but drive wages extremely down, to the point where it was hard or impossible for the worker to survive on the wages, making it hard to purchase products and reproduce capitalist social relations and turning unwanted commodities into money and surplus value. The minimum wage is supposed to guarantees a level of wages sufficient enough for the worker to survive and reproduce capitalist social relations. However, the current neo-liberal epoch of capitalism has provided a "minimum wage" that doesn't suffice for workers to survive, let alone buy commodities off the market. (The recent McDonalds fiasco is proof of this, where they literally admitted to not paying their employees enough money to survive.

[UncleLenin]

I think that minimum wage is good. In my opinion,most forms of state intervention is good. I would like to see the minimum wage increased though.:grin:

[Brosa Luxemburg]

That's nice.

[tuwix]

Is there any good anti-capitalist or leftist perspective on the minimum wage?

Minimum wage is to avoid paying workers a salary as capitalist wiches regardless what real cost of living is. Capitalists don't care whether his salary is enought to sirvive or not. Minimum wage cares instead of him.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

That's nice.

Your infraction will also be nice, I hope. Barely one day after the new policy on spamming the learning forum as well. :rolleyes:

[PootieTangTilDeath]

To me,

A minimum wage, as a set wage, is destructive. Minimum wage should be based off of your production(a certain percentage or ideally all) through quality and quantity. Of course this will destroy the capitalist society as it forces people to actually produce instead of paying people to produce.

[Fakeblock]

No it doesn't. The bourgeoisie has an income far above minimum wage. Such a minimum wage would probably benefit the capitalists.

[Prinskaj]

Thanks for the great answers, but I still have a few questions left, if anyone cares to help me.
The argument of the minimum wage keeping workers, who produce less value for the capitalist than the minimum wage requires him to them, out of the workforce. This argument is particularly wide spread where I come from and I would like to know some perspectives on it.

[Klaatu]

There should be a maximum wage too.

Minimum wage should be $20 per hour, maximum wage $50 per hour. That means no one, and I mean no one at all makes more than this.
That gets rid of millionaires and billionaires all together. Capitalist Pigs. :p

[blake 3:17]

Socialists should campaign for a minimum wage as a living wage.

A minimum wage does two things:

1) prevents forms of super exploitation

and

2) reduces competition between workers

[Decolonize The Left]

To me,

A minimum wage, as a set wage, is destructive. Minimum wage should be based off of your production(a certain percentage or ideally all) through quality and quantity. Of course this will destroy the capitalist society as it forces people to actually produce instead of paying people to produce.


Unfortunately this isn't theoretically coherent. For example, how do you weigh the "production" of a janitor who cleans bathrooms, hallways, etc... all day long against a brain surgeon who works for approximately fifteen hours a week? How do you gauge the quality and quantity of their respective work? And furthermore, who are you do to so? Don't you think that other people would think differently? And why aren't they allowed to decide how much equals how much?

[Decolonize The Left]

Thanks for the great answers, but I still have a few questions left, if anyone cares to help me.
The argument of the minimum wage keeping workers, who produce less value for the capitalist than the minimum wage requires him to them, out of the workforce. This argument is particularly wide spread where I come from and I would like to know some perspectives on it.

I'm not sure if I understand the question, but theoretically all workers produce more value than their wage compensates them for, otherwise there would be no profit for the capitalist class. So the argument, if I understand it correctly, is moot from the get-go.

[MarxSchmarx]

That's nice.

Is this meant in mockery? If so, you should try to spell out why you think it the poster above you isn't quite answering the OPs query or what have you. Otherwise, I fail to see the point of your post.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I think that minimum wage is good. In my opinion,most forms of state intervention is good. I would like to see the minimum wage increased though.:grin:

Whether we are viewing the minimum wage as "good" or "bad" is not a very marxist way of looking at it. Rather, does the minimum wage represent something to combat existing capitalist social relations, or something that can be absorbed by capital and used by capital? Obviously it is the former. This is the same with state intervention. The state is the state of the bourgeoisie, and must be overthrown. State intervention within the capitalist economy is not something "good" or "bad" but an observation of the movement of capital within society. An increase in the minimum wage, while I personally being a minimum wage worker (or was until I recently quit my job :) ) I would greatly like to see the minimum wage increased, it isn't something revolutionary or something revolutionaries should fight for, rather fight for an end to wage-slavery and the alienation of labor. I apologize to you for acting like an ass in my earlier post. This is the learning section, and I was acting like a straight up prick.

[Prinskaj]

I'm not sure if I understand the question, but theoretically all workers produce more value than their wage compensates them for, otherwise there would be no profit for the capitalist class. So the argument, if I understand it correctly, is moot from the get-go.
I am sorry, if I am not making myself absolutely clear. What I meant was, that if the minimum wage pushes some workers, who lack the skills necessary to produce the amount of value necessary for the capitalist to employ him/her, out of the workforce.

[the debater]

There should be a maximum wage too.

Minimum wage should be $20 per hour, maximum wage $50 per hour. That means no one, and I mean no one at all makes more than this.
That gets rid of millionaires and billionaires all together. Capitalist Pigs. :p

Wouldn't it be beastly difficult to implement a maximum wage law? The ultra-rich folks would find ways to skirt around such a law. If we can't get successful maximum wage laws implemented, perhaps we could focus on increasing the number of income tax brackets instead.

[Klaatu]

Wouldn't it be beastly difficult to implement a maximum wage law? The ultra-rich folks would find ways to skirt around such a law. If we can't get successful maximum wage laws implemented, perhaps we could focus on increasing the number of income tax brackets instead.

Of course this would be next to impossible in todays' Capitalist Dictatorship.
But after The Socialist Revolution, where Capitalism is a thing of the past, it will be something which we will have in our Constitution.

But in the mean time, high tax brackets could suffice... unfortunately, there is widespread support for lowering taxes, even among minimum wage earners, many of whom actually support lowering taxes on the wealthy (go figure!) there is the typical wholesale public brain-washing going on (recall so-called 'trickle-down economics?') These are the same pathetic simple-minded folks that believe that "Obama's going to take all of your guns away" (not only did this NOT happen, those spouting off on this really ARE trying to take your Social Security/Medicare/Pension away... look what is happening right now, to Detroit's retired public workers)

They are trying to take away public workers' meager benefits, at the same time they are going to build a new sports stadium here in Detroit, with mostly taxpayer money (250 million dollars' worth) Furthermore, the county executives are getting paid bonuses (goodgod, even the public sector here is corrupt to the core, never mind the Capitalists!)

[Red Banana]

There should be a maximum wage too.

Minimum wage should be $20 per hour, maximum wage $50 per hour. That means no one, and I mean no one at all makes more than this.
That gets rid of millionaires and billionaires all together. Capitalist Pigs. :p

Capitalists don't get paid wages though, workers do. A maximum wage would only serve as a restraint for the working class and sounds like some draconian bill that Republicans will be pushing in a few years.

I think what you might mean is a maximum income, which as a short term reform might help things but realistically could never get passed, at least not now in the US.

And as for being able to enact something like that after proletarian revolution, I don't believe there will be any need since proletarian revolution would necessitate abolishing the wage system and most likely money, making any type of wages or income impossible.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

i4q1a67M8pE

Minimum wage was an important victory of workers' struggle (where it exists). Unfortunately, at this point, given stagnation of wages relative to cost of living, it feels like a pretty hollow victory some days (ie days when one works for minimum wage).
As a critique, I'd say it's also an ideological prop for the capitalist class. "Look, we pay you fairly according to the law, you have your protected rights within the labour code, we're not violating them," and so on. Of course, like I said, when one has to supplement their wages with the food bank, their legality is some slim comfort. So, now, one has to confront not just their boss, but the whole ideological apparatus of the law, the state, etc. which says your boss is perfectly justified in paying you minimum wage. As communists, of course, we should rise to this, but many workers at minimum wage are less than ready to make the "leap of faith" (in existentialist terms) of throwing away their ideological understandings of the state, the law, capital, etc.

[Klaatu]

I think what you might mean is a maximum income

Yes, actually I meant max income. There would be a very slim variation between lowest and highest incomes in a Socialist society.

[Red Banana]

I think "income" as such will be a thing of the past in socialist society though. The closest thing I can think of to income would be labor credits and even then the people that do advocate those only see them as a temporary measure to be taken before the "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" of full communism sets in.

[drunken-radicalism]

"it isn't something revolutionary or something revolutionaries should fight for, rather fight for an end to wage-slavery and the alienation of labor"

Fighting for a higher minimum wage could be revolutionary, and is totally something revolutionaries should fight for, it just depends on how you do it. If you fight for wages that keep up with the rate of inflation, or a guaranteed living wage than you expose the ineptitude of the capitalist system, and bring the working class closer to class consciousness.

Basically what I mean is that it could be a transitional demand.

[ed miliband]

i4q1a67M8pE

Minimum wage was an important victory of workers' struggle (where it exists). Unfortunately, at this point, given stagnation of wages relative to cost of living, it feels like a pretty hollow victory some days (ie days when one works for minimum wage).

there's an interesting point here, because the last labour government introduced the minimum wage at a point where class struggle was at its lowest point in probably the last century, which is something it's important to factor in when looking at the minimum wage in britain at least.

[Popular Front of Judea]

A minimum wage is the attempt to win more income at the ballot box when it is unwinnable at the workplace. It's not just a matter of strength. The economy has changed. Far more are working for labor contractors and for franchises. All of which are difficult to organize -- especially under US labor law. (It is a hard slog organizing a workplace in the US under the best of circumstances.)

I am watching with interest ballot proposal here to institute a $15 an hour minimum wage in a city that surrounds the international airport here:

http://realchangenews.org/index.php/site/archives/8047

[argeiphontes]

...how do you weigh the "production" of a janitor who cleans bathrooms, hallways, etc... all day long against a brain surgeon who works for approximately fifteen hours a week? How do you gauge the quality and quantity of their respective work?


...theoretically all workers produce more value than their wage compensates them for, otherwise there would be no profit for the capitalist class. So the argument, if I understand it correctly, is moot from the get-go.

It seems that capitalists are benefiting from arbitrage that results from a differential of power and labor immobility. This allows them to buy labor for much less than the value of product produced, and sell that product for much more. Look at the recent Apple/Foxconn thing.

In recent years they've also benefited by being able to stagnate real wages because of the continuing willingness of working people to accumulate more and more debt, which has recently collapsed. They can sustain aggregate demand only because people are willing to charge their ipods on credit cards or whatever. If not, the problem with the discrepancy would be felt. In fact it has been since the 2008 collapse and the end of easy credit.

Anyway, the minimum wage needs to be raised at least to the level of capitalist reproduction or else they're shooting themselves in the foot. (Fast food strike for example). It also causes a lot of suffering, and, as Marxist economist Richard Wolff points out, sets a bare minimum for wages and hence affects everybody in the economy indirectly.

Whether it's good for the Revolution is another story :confused:

[argeiphontes]

So, to actually try to answer your question...

In one sense, it's another form of extortion to threaten job loss, just propaganda. Another way to make you think There Is No Alternative.

But, only some lower-paid work can be replaced with higher-paid work. A certain amount of work still needs to be done, and two individuals can't always be replaced by one higher-paid individual. People can't always be forced to work harder. Or, on the other hand, are they going to steal people from other, higher-paid industries? Eh...

A certain number of people are still required to staff an office, build fast food items, service customers, install computer systems. Crops will spoil if there are not enough people to harvest them.

There's also the fact that what Meszaros calls "intensive exploitation" has a limit, simply because we are living biological beings. As well as psychologically being able to work only so hard.

So in my opinion I would say NO, it's mostly propaganda. If you'd like hard facts then I'd suggest looking into the work of economist Paul Krugman, I'm sure he has some charts and graphs that illustrate this.

[Lord Hargreaves]

I am sorry, if I am not making myself absolutely clear. What I meant was, that if the minimum wage pushes some workers, who lack the skills necessary to produce the amount of value necessary for the capitalist to employ him/her, out of the workforce.

The neoclassical analysis (I'm not sure why you're trying to talk in terms of Marx's labour theory? Business doesn't use this to decide how many people to hire) treats the labour market as entirely synonymous with all other commodity markets. Hiring an employee is exactly the same as buying a can of coke. Thus, if the wage slowly reaches a certain "magic" point, the idea is that the employer will then suddenly decide to fire its entire workforce and change its capital-labour ratio to something else.

But of course, empirically, this is all false. Labour isn't just like any other market. Hiring and firing people is incredibly difficult. Small changes in the wage rate rarely make any difference to how the employer decides to structure their business. A minimum wage has no real effect on how employers operate and there is a huge wealth of evidence to show this.