Democracy has been overthrown in Detroit?

[NeonTrotski]

Is Detroit a dictatorship.? All of Detroits elected officials have formally lost all power govern. The Emergency Financial Manager (EFM) has supreme executive authority over Detroits budget or policies?
Elected officials may not have filed for bankruptcy, but against the overwhelming majority of Detroits population the EFM is filing for chapter 9. There is no Democratic means to stop the policies or actions of the EFM.
There are no referendums or recalls on EFMs. You can't vote an EFM out of office. So is Detroit just experiencing bourgeois democracy as usual or is it incipient fascism? EFMs seem to be focused in areas that have high % black population. Furthermore is it worth exclaiming?

[d3crypt]

Bourgeois Democracy isn't democracy. There was no democracy to overthrow.

[Klaatu]

Remember there was a referendum in Nov 2012 on Emergency Managers (it was rejected) yet the governor (with his Republican henchmen) went ahead and posted an EM anyway.

Now they are trying to gut public pensions, at the same time are going to build a new sports stadium with taxpayers' money.

At least the state attorney general is fighting to keep the pensions in place. In fact, it is against Michigan State Constitution to cut pensions! Our "illustrious" governor thinks he is above the law... I've got news for him!

[Comrade Samuel]

Bourgeois Democracy isn't democracy. There was no democracy to overthrow.

While it is necessary to remind people of this fact I think OP is asking a very important question here.

As a fellow Michigander I am remarkably ill informed about what is becoming of Detroit, do you live in or around the city? I can only assume that for the average person life has gone on as it did before the announcement of bankruptcy, correct? I don't remember hearing any news of mass protest or even the slightest unrest after they told us what they are going to do with your guys' pensions.

[NeonTrotski]

Bourgeois Democracy isn't democracy. There was no democracy to overthrow.

But a dictatorship is different from bourgeois democracy, as defined by MIA.
The question is has it become a dictatorship.

[NeonTrotski]

[QUOTE=Comrade Samuel;2645301...I can only assume that for the average person life has gone on as it did before the announcement of bankruptcy, correct? [/QUOTE]

Life as it was before is not that usual in Amityville.
I Don't think people quite grasped the full effect bankruptcy will have as well the courts have put a temporary hold on the bankruptcy.

[Sotionov]

Bourgeois Democracy isn't democracy. There was no democracy to overthrow.
All "democracy" that has in itself hierarchy isn't a democracy, but an elective oligarchy. Also, virtually all elective oligarchies have not only have a tendency to become tyrannies, but have detailed plans of effective transformation into tyrannies "in case of need", Roman republic had it, all European republics had it and most practiced it during during (world) wars, every republic today has such "contingency plans".

[Popular Front of Judea]

Whether or not the nomination of the Emergency Manager meets the minimum standards of formal democracy is not particularly interesting to me. What is interesting is the question of how much the bankruptcy was a fiat accompli decided well before the event. Start with the 'enhanced' Emergency Manager law that was voted on in a lame duck legislature at the end of last year. Then add the discussions that started at the beginning of the year between the governor, the law firm that employed the future Emergency Manager, the future Emergency Manager himself and the mayor of Detroit.

http://www.freep.com/article/20130722/NEWS01/307220086/Kevyn-Orr-Detroit-bankruptcy-emails

[Paul Pott]

You could argue that bourgeois democracy has ceased to function in Detroit.

[NeonTrotski]

So when Detroit denizens say they are living in a dictatorship with no democratic process at all, the response from the reds is ... "who cares it's not a democracy any way" or thats not what interests me?

I am in Detroit often but not a resident.

Isn't this the workers struggle within the system that so many reds say your supposed work with to spread revolutionary ideas from? Seems to me if the average Detroiter is screaming fascism the Reds should be there saying we support the workers against capitalism or whatever.

No commies seem to be saying this at all. The Spark (small detroit trot group) hinted at it calling Orr a Emergency Financial Dictator. But other than that it's just non commie, average joe saying it.

I'm trying to ask people is this another "let the democrats jump in" and make it all about red v blue like the antinwar demos and the Wisconsin Occupy and Michigans right to work rallies etc etc
Or is this something that commies should be making calls on.
Its 10000 degrees in detroit right now whats your stance again?

[NeonTrotski]

You could argue that bourgeois democracy has ceased to function in Detroit.

Ha! You Stalinists. Brief and to the point. Excellent

[d3crypt]

So when Detroit denizens say they are living in a dictatorship with no democratic process at all, the response from the reds is ... "who cares it's not a democracy any way" or thats not what interests me?

I am in Detroit often but not a resident.

Isn't this the workers struggle within the system that so many reds say your supposed work with to spread revolutionary ideas from? Seems to me if the average Detroiter is screaming fascism the Reds should be there saying we support the workers against capitalism or whatever.

No commies seem to be saying this at all. The Spark (small detroit trot group) hinted at it calling Orr a Emergency Financial Dictator. But other than that it's just non commie, average joe saying it.

I'm trying to ask people is this another "let the democrats jump in" and make it all about red v blue like the antinwar demos and the Wisconsin Occupy and Michigans right to work rallies etc etc
Or is this something that commies should be making calls on.
Its 10000 degrees in detroit right now whats your stance again?

To be honest i don't know much about the conditions in Detroit. But it reminds me of the movie Robocop.

[NeonTrotski]

To be honest i don't know much about the conditions in Detroit. But it reminds me of the movie Robocop.

Yeah well there's lots of anarchists that dress like road warrior. Its one of the few cities where the workers seem to be more progressive than the reds. The local SEP trots are actually pro union busting. The ISO is well.. probably tailing the Dems, the SP is busy skateboarding and being vegan. Occupy Detroit if you wanna count them is all making mix tapes of dance music.

[Popular Front of Judea]

So what are people in Detroit and the surrounding region saying is happening? Are they in fact saying it's a fascist takeover -- or the inevitable end to a long decline?

Personally I would say -- as an outsider -- that the focus should be on what comes out of the other end of the bankruptcy. I assume this is the Shock Doctrine in action, with full spectrum privatization on its way. Goodbye City of Detroit, hello Detroit Enterprise Zone.


So when Detroit denizens say they are living in a dictatorship with no democratic process at all, the response from the reds is ... "who cares it's not a democracy any way" or thats not what interests me?

I am in Detroit often but not a resident.

Isn't this the workers struggle within the system that so many reds say your supposed work with to spread revolutionary ideas from? Seems to me if the average Detroiter is screaming fascism the Reds should be there saying we support the workers against capitalism or whatever.

No commies seem to be saying this at all. The Spark (small detroit trot group) hinted at it calling Orr a Emergency Financial Dictator. But other than that it's just non commie, average joe saying it.

I'm trying to ask people is this another "let the democrats jump in" and make it all about red v blue like the antinwar demos and the Wisconsin Occupy and Michigans right to work rallies etc etc
Or is this something that commies should be making calls on.
Its 10000 degrees in detroit right now whats your stance again?

[tachosomoza]

Detroit circa 2013 is a prime example of the inevitable result of capitalism.

[cyu]

With the fall of the Soviet Union and the slow capitalist takeover of China, capitalists think the class war is over and that they are merely mopping up what is left. Little do they know that what they are doing at this point, is merely digging their own graves.

[TheStone]

Detroit is basically one giant externality of the globalized operations of capitalists. For the caps, this is basically the amputation of a gangrenous limb. Obligations were run up that were only sustainable given a certain level of revenues. If those revenues fell due to decisions made by private corporations, of what concern is it to them? I am no expert in bankruptcy proceedings, but it will be interesting to see what the haircuts look like for various creditors vs. pensioners and citizen-recipients of services. Cutbacks in services (up to an including turning on streetlights) are already being employed to pressure certain residents out of certain neighborhoods. Never mind that it is entirely impossible to unload a property in those neighborhoods onto the markets.

[TheStone]

Another area for analysis re: Detroit is the sheer propaganda value that the bankruptcy provides to neoliberals. For a long time Detroit was the closest thing in the US to a major metropolitan area built by and for the industrial working class (I know - not saying much there). The resultant revolutionary currents always stuck in the craw of the neolibs. Now the latter can point to Detroit and say, "see, this is what happens when workers organize and try to provide something beyond a subsistence living for themselves."

[Comrade Jacob]

"Democracy" The bourgeoisie don't had out real democracy, sure they may allow you to vote for those you want (out of a shit batch). There wasn't real democracy there to start with.

[tachosomoza]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/23/detroit-decline-distinctively-capitalist-failure


The automobile-driven economic growth of the 1950s and 1960s made Detroit a globally recognized symbol of successful capitalist renewal after the great depression and the war (1929-1945). High-wage auto industry jobs with real security and exemplary benefits were said to prove capitalism's ability to generate and sustain a large "middle class", one that could include African Americans, too. Auto-industry jobs became inspirations and models for what workers across America might seek and acquire – those middle-class components of a modern "American Dream".

True, quality jobs in Detroit were forced from the automobile capitalists by long and hard union struggles, especially across the 1930s. Once defeated in those struggles, auto capitalists quickly arranged to rewrite the history so that good wages and working conditions became something they "gave" to their workers. In any case, Detroit became a vibrant, world-class city in the 1950s and 1960s; its distinctive culture and sound shaped the world's music much as its cars shaped the world's industries.

Over the past 40 years, capitalism turned that success into the abject failure culminating now in the largest municipal bankruptcy in US history.

The key decision-makers – major shareholders in General Motors, Ford, Chrysler, etc, and the boards of directors they selected – made many disastrous decisions. They failed in competition with European and Japanese automobile capitalists and so lost market share to them. They responded too slowly and inadequately to the need to develop new fuel-saving technologies. And, perhaps most tellingly, they responded to their own failures by deciding to move production out of Detroit so they could pay other workers lower wages.

The automobile companies' competitive failures, and then their moves, had two key economic consequences. First, they effectively undermined the economic foundation of Detroit's economy. Second, they thereby dealt a major blow to any chances for an enduring US middle class. The past 40 years have displayed those consequences and the capitalist system's inability or unwillingness to stop, let alone reverse, them.

Real wages in the US stopped growing in the 1970s, and have not grown since, even as workers' rising productivity generated even more profits for employers. Rising consumer debt and overwork postponed for a few years the impacts of stagnant real wages on consumption. But by 2007, with wages stagnant and further consumer borrowing capacity exhausted, a long and deep crisis arrived. Employers used the resulting unemployment to attack job security and benefits and the public sector built up in the 1950s and 1960s to support the middle class (for example, by low-cost public higher education).

Auto industry capitalists took the lead and Detroit exemplified the economic decline that resulted. In the deep crisis since 2007, General Motors and Chrysler got federal bailouts, but Detroit did not. The auto companies got wage reductions (via the tiered wage system) that assured Detroit's wage-based economy could not recover, even as auto company production and profits did. The failures of private capitalism thus drew in the complicity of the federal government.

Despite what the heroic sit-down strikes and other actions of the United Auto Workers had earlier won for their members, the auto companies' decision-making powers remained in the hands of major shareholders and their boards of directors. They used that power to evade, weaken and eventually undo what union struggles had won. The unions proved incapable of stopping that process. Detroit's capitalists thus undermined the middle-class conditions workers had extracted from them – and thus destroyed the "capitalist success" city built on those conditions.

Detroit's decline, like the parallel decline of the United Auto Workers, teaches an inescapable lesson. The very contracts that militant unions win with employers give those employers great incentives to find ways around those contracts. They usually do.

The top-down structure of capitalist enterprises provides major shareholders and boards of directors with the resources (corporate profits) to cut or remove the good conditions unions can sometimes win. That's how this system works. Detroit has "been there and done that". The solution is not more contracts.

If the autoworkers had transformed the auto companies into worker co-operatives, Detroit would have evolved very differently. Worker co-operatives would not have moved production, thereby undermining their jobs, families and communities, including especially Detroit. Workers would not have destroyed themselves and their communities that way. Moving production, a distinctly capitalist strategy, was key to Detroit's population dropping from 1.8m in 1950 to 700,000 today.

Workers co-operatives would also have searched and likely found alternatives to moving that might have saved Detroit. Workers co-operatives, for example, would likely have paid less in dividends to owners and salaries to managers than was typical at Ford, General Motors and Chrysler. Those savings, if passed on in lower automobile prices, would have enabled better completion with European and Japanese car makers than Detroit's Big Three managed.

We cannot know how much more Detroit's auto industry might have benefited from technical progress had it been organized as a workers' co-operative. We can guess that workers have greater incentives to improve technology in co-operatives they own and operate than as employees in capitalist enterprises. Finally, worker co-operatives would likely have switched to producing (and helped to promote) mass-transit vehicles or other alternatives to the automobile to retain jobs and well-being once they saw that continued automobile production could not secure those priorities for worker co-operatives.

What kind of a society gives a relatively tiny number of people the position and power to make corporate decisions impacting millions in and around Detroit while it excludes those millions from participating in those decisions?

When those capitalists' decisions condemn Detroit to 40 years of disastrous decline, what kind of society relieves those capitalists of any responsibility to help rebuild that city?

The simple answer to these questions: no genuinely democratic economy could or would work that way.

[Old Bolshie]

Is Detroit a dictatorship.? All of Detroits elected officials have formally lost all power govern. The Emergency Financial Manager (EFM) has supreme executive authority over Detroits budget or policies?
Elected officials may not have filed for bankruptcy, but against the overwhelming majority of Detroits population the EFM is filing for chapter 9. There is no Democratic means to stop the policies or actions of the EFM.
There are no referendums or recalls on EFMs. You can't vote an EFM out of office. So is Detroit just experiencing bourgeois democracy as usual or is it incipient fascism? EFMs seem to be focused in areas that have high % black population. Furthermore is it worth exclaiming?

If democracy has been overthrown in Detroit, democracy has been overthrown in Europe for some time now. Countries like Portugal and Greece have its government totally subordinated to the Troika (the IMF, the European Central Bank and European Commission) which has the authority over its budget and if the government wants to alter some minor issue it must ask for Troika's permission first. As you said about Detroit and EFM, Troika's program was not voted in elections, there are no democratic means to stop Troika and there are no referendums or recalls.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The local SEP trots are actually pro union busting. The ISO is well.. probably tailing the Dems.

Um what? That's a pretty big charge to throw out there - union busting, tailing the Democrats? I doubt the SEP is supporting union-busting even if I disagree with them and I know that the ISO dosn't support union busting or the Democrats (who actually do support union-busting even if it's with the blunt end of the hammer whereas the Republicans want to use the claw-end). I think you're getting some bad info if the above quote is really what you think.



No one should lose sight of what's at stake here. The living standards and quality of life of hundreds of thousands of people--disproportionately workers and people of color who have already endured dire cutbacks as a consequence of Detroit's financial crisis--will be placed in further jeopardy. And the most basic democratic rights of millions of Michiganders stand to be trampled underfoot in a further imposition of austerity.

And Detroiters should forget about receiving a bailout from the federal government like Citibank, General Motors and Chrysler, among others, have all gotten over the years. "Can we help Detroit?" Vice President Joe Biden asked. "We don't know." White House Press Secretary Jay Carney told reporters that the Detroit bankruptcy is "something that local leaders and creditors are going to have to resolve. But we will be partners in an effort to assist the city and the state as they move forward."

We criticized the auto-union buerocracy for making deals and selling austerity to workers FOR the Democrats back when the economy collapsed, but we support workers fighting back collectivly inside and outside of labor unions and oppose union-busting.


I'm trying to ask people is this another "let the democrats jump in" and make it all about red v blue like the antinwar demos and the Wisconsin Occupy and Michigans right to work rallies etc etc
Or is this something that commies should be making calls on.
Its 10000 degrees in detroit right now whats your stance again?

All else being equal, given the sort of defensive stance, low expectations, and lack of organization, of workers, there's a good chance (especailly with the Republicans dominating local politics) that most of the opposition will be drawn into "throw the bums out and elect Democrats" sorts of efforts. Wisconsin shows the practical problems with that approach, more generally, in many other places it's the Democrats (like here in California) who are actually the people pushing austerity. But any fight-back on this opens the possibility for contesting the bad options on offer and trying to organize around working-class demands.

[Jimmie Higgins]

If democracy has been overthrown in Detroit, democracy has been overthrown in Europe for some time now. Countries like Portugal and Greece have its government totally subordinated to the Troika (the IMF, the European Central Bank and European Commission) which has the authority over its budget and if the government wants to alter some minor issue it must ask for Troika's permission first. As you said about Detroit and EFM, Troika's program was not voted in elections, there are no democratic means to stop Troika and there are no referendums or recalls.Well I think that's the point. Not that we are in fascism, but that in order to efficiently recover in capitalist terms, ruling classes are making moves to eliminate even dysfuntional or limited means of popular pressure on the system.

I think this bankrupsy is a version of the trokia - "it's out of our hands, we have no choice but to cut this and that and you'all are going to have to tighten your belts". It should also be seen in the context of JP Morgan saying that the EU should reduce post-war reforms; the US Supreme Court giving the green-light for States to restrict voting rights; and tons of other examples of ruling classes pre-emptivly trying to eliminate any potential barriers to their restructuring plans. They know this shit is going to last and that driving us into the ground is their best hope for recovery on their terms - they are preparing and unfortunately aside from a few countries, we are not.

[Consistent.Surprise]

The fact of the matter is that any municipality (or country, in the instance of Greece) that has an Emergency Manager forced upon them is being run by a dictator.

So, no, Detroit wasn't a Democracy but more of an Oligarchy. The city council & the mayor were elected into their offices (20% of Detroit voted in that election) but, as of the Lame Duck session in December 2012, the GOP majority legislature at that time, passed PA 436. November of 2012, the people repealed PA 4 (signed into law in 2011). The repeal allowed the government to revert to PA 72 (1988 & 1990).

As if March 16, 2013, Detroit was placed under emergency management by Snyder (governor). Kevyn Orr, a wealthy bankruptcy lawyer who was contracted by Chrysler, was put into power.

EMs are not new to Detroit; Detroit Public Schools have shut down en masse due to the 2 EMs they have had forced upon them. Highland Park (a city within our city) has had hundreds of thousands of dollars stolen by their school EM.

Detroit didn't ask for an EM; the people elected the council & mayor (as poor as those choices were but I wasn't living here at the time). Orr now has ABSOLUTE control over daily operations. Council & the mayor may pass a bill saying they're going to finally replace broken street lights (no, they haven't turned them off, they just can't afford to repair them) & Orr can strike it down.

But this dictatorship has more than one head: Snyder is the one managing the strings Orr is dancing on.

So, now do you all get how Detroit (& Pontiac, Benton Harbor, Flint, Allen Park, Inkster, & Hamtramck) are all under dictatorship of Snyder? I don't care that the officials in office in those cities aren't ideal representatives of the working class, they at least were elected by them (to an extent. I know, I know)

[Consistent.Surprise]

All else being equal, given the sort of defensive stance, low expectations, and lack of organization, of workers, there's a good chance (especailly with the Republicans dominating local politics)

You obviously know nothing of Detroit & Detroit Metro politics.

[MarxSchmarx]

You obviously know nothing of Detroit & Detroit Metro politics.

Maybe they do. Maybe they don't. But flush out how you see these as mistaken phrases. One liners like this are not helpful to other posters.

FYI, we have rules against one liners because they can be seen as flaming and some consider posts like this trolling.

This goes to everyone. Next person to flame like this will receive a verbal warning.

[Consistent.Surprise]

Maybe they do. Maybe they don't. But flush out how you see these as mistaken phrases. One liners like this are not helpful to other posters.

FYI, we have rules against one liners because they can be seen as flaming and some consider posts like this trolling.

This goes to everyone. Next person to flame like this will receive a verbal warning.

My apologies.

What I see is that the comments about it being a push to remove republicans & replace them with dems is incorrect. As a person living in Detroit, all of our mayors since the riots in 67 have been dems. Throughout the southeast region of Michigan, the vast majority of elected officials are dems.
The comment made would be apropos for Grand Rapids.

As for our workers, there are many who are not sitting back during this & actually filed restraining orders against the governor and the EM. Our pensioners as well as our current public services employees are not being quiet about the Chapter 9 filing.

[NeonTrotski]

Um what? That's a pretty big charge to throw out there - union busting, tailing the Democrats? I doubt the SEP is supporting union-busting even if I disagree with them and I know that the ISO dosn't support union busting or the Democrats (who actually do support union-busting even if it's with the blunt end of the hammer whereas the Republicans want to use the claw-end). I think you're getting some bad info if the above quote is really what you think.



We criticized the auto-union buerocracy for making deals and selling austerity to workers FOR the Democrats back when the economy collapsed, but we support workers fighting back collectivly inside and outside of labor unions and oppose union-busting.



All else being equal, given the sort of defensive stance, low expectations, and lack of organization, of workers, there's a good chance (especailly with the Republicans dominating local politics) that most of the opposition will be drawn into "throw the bums out and elect Democrats" sorts of efforts. Wisconsin shows the practical problems with that approach, more generally, in many other places it's the Democrats (like here in California) who are actually the people pushing austerity. But any fight-back on this opens the possibility for contesting the bad options on offer and trying to organize around working-class demands.

Um read the SEP website. Talk to any of them. They are openly anti union. David North, their supreme leader, has a specifically non union printing company in Detroit.

And I never said the ISO was anti union. But they were super pro obama before he was elected. I know this because i read the socialist worker. I was invited by your comrades in chicago to goto your Obamas been elected party. I saw ISO speakers in Lansing endorse Kerry during an anti war demo. The ISO is openly a reformist group. And therefore anti revolutionary. But no one in the ISO reads lenin or trotsky and stays in the group.
Once you learn what democratic centralism is and how it works you will most likely leave the ISO. They have openly supported the green party. Wait who is Tony Cliff? Oh yeah he led the Internternational you were expelled from. What was the reasons for the ISOs expulsion from the IST?

[NeonTrotski]

You obviously know nothing of Detroit & Detroit Metro politics.

I don't think this is flaming. I agree that one line posts are inappropriate, but the user apologized and then rationally explained their stance.
I posted this thread and think that their explanation is one of the best on this thread. Other notables have been thanked by me.
Many of the responses are overly intellectual bs responses that have no sympathy for the workers of Detroit. If the user whom this person is supposedly flaming knew anything about Detroits politics they would have known there are hardly ever, republicans elected.
I go even farther to say if you don't know Detroit is mostly black and most blacks vote for dems then consisted surprise is correct.

Knows nothing of Detroit

[Jimmie Higgins]

You obviously know nothing of Detroit & Detroit Metro politics.I never claimed to, in fact this is what I said in the other thread about Detroit...

This is a very interesting post and I think I pretty much agree with what you are saying here. I don't know enough about Detroit to say what I would want to see happen there - or even what I think might be possible in the short or medium term as far as class struggle.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/detroit-becomes-largest-t182056/index.html?t=182056&highlight=detroit


...but I thought the govener who appointed Orr was a Republican and that most of the anger I've read in the news has been focused on Republicans. It could be skewed compared to real sentiment on the ground because this would obviously be the "acceptable" political responce according to the press.

The OP asked if opposition to this might go down the road of supporting the Democrats. I don't know much about Detroit being that I'm in Oakland Ca, but generally in the US in recent years the weakness of an independant opposition has lead many people to supporting the Democrats in electoral opposition - a mistake as shown by the Wisconsin example.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Um read the SEP website. Talk to any of them. They are openly anti union. David North, their supreme leader, has a specifically non union printing company in Detroit.They support union-busting? I've never met any of these guys in real life, so I probably won't be asking them. They also say that the ISO endorsed Obama so they already lack credibility in my view, but never the less, saying they are union-busters (as in this is a stated position of theirs, not some leftist sectarian urban legends) a huge charge that I think needs to be backed up unequivically.


And I never said the ISO was anti union.


The local SEP trots are actually pro union busting. The ISO is well.. probably tailing the Dems. My bad - I read this as "they are actualy pro union busting. The ISO as well"


But they were super pro obama before he was elected. I know this because i read the socialist worker. I was invited by your comrades in chicago to goto your Obamas been elected party.We always have "election meetings" because in our experience real politics die during elections and or we try and provide an alternative space for our allies to disscuss it with us rather than only hear the media interpretation. You obviously DON'T read socialist worker if you think we were supporting Obama. We argued that his election was significant in terms of popular reaction and "hope" but misplaced in the Democrats.


I saw ISO speakers in Lansing endorse Kerry during an anti war demo.No, the ISO did not endorse Kerry in any way. In fact the branch I was in decided to ask an activist to leave the group because we couldn't win him away from the "well Kerry would be a small step forward" position.


The ISO is openly a reformist group.No we do not secretly or openly believe that capitalism can be refomed into socialism. We do fight for reforms now that have the possibility of mobilizing workers and the oppressed or might develop a stronger class wing.


And therefore anti revolutionary. But no one in the ISO reads lenin or trotsky and stays in the group.Really, I've been a rather average member for a little over a decade and I've read on my own all sorts of things, but also have read as part of branch study-groups: Marx, Engels, Lenin, Gramsci, Trotsky, Luxembourg, Cliff, Cannon, CLR James, among others - not to mention 2ndary works even by people we don't fully agree with like Lars Lin.


Once you learn what democratic centralism is and how it works you will most likely leave the ISO. They have openly supported the green party.Yes I participated in those efforts and think the Nader campaign was a good move in 2000 (I still considered myself an anarchist at that point and wasn't a member yet), but a mistake in 2004.


Wait who is Tony Cliff? Oh yeah he led the Internternational you were expelled from. What was the reasons for the ISOs expulsion from the IST?They were bullshit reasons but I am gratefull for the independance and ability to reassess things that the explusion led to. I joined at this time and folks tried to explain it to me but I was really too new to care that much. At that time we talked about shedding bad habbits and practices inhereted from the SWP, but I think only minor changes started to be made and some of those were more rehtorical initially because basically right afterward 9-11 happened and then the anti-war movements and I think that a meaningful re-assessment didn't begin until the anti-war movement declined which really began to highlight some of the non-working practices that we held onto.

While since joining I have more or less agreed with the ISO's orientation and approach (with specific disagreements on this or that of course) I think the organization is vastly better in quality and depth and in practices than the SWP-franchize organization I initially joined.

At any rate, I don't expect everyone to agree with me or the ISO by any means - I certaintly don't agree with all other tradditions and whatnot, but I hope this clarifies where I am coming from and dispells some of your mistaken impressions from my perspective. I like this website for the exchange of viewpoints and discussion, but I have very little interest or tolerance for left-wing urban legends or sectarian bullshit which can only produce charges and denials, not actual debate. There is pleanty of room for debate about tactics and approach and political lines, but when people say that an organization that in my personal experience has been practically obessed in trying to figure out how to break people from the Democrats, "supports the Democratic party" then there's no room for discussion. It would be like a Christian saying to a Jew, "well I'd like to discuss differences in our religions... why did yours kill Jesus?".

[Martin Blank]

So when Detroit denizens say they are living in a dictatorship with no democratic process at all, the response from the reds is ... "who cares it's not a democracy any way" or thats not what interests me?

No. And anyone who takes that approach is a complete idiot or a shill for the ruling classes.

Snyder's "Emergency" dictators are unelected officials appointed by the governor, with the power to override any decision made by the elected Mayor and City Council. The only reason Mayor Bing still has his job is because he openly supports Snyder and his proxy, Kevyn Orr.

This is more than simply being under the gun of someone like an IMF official. A more appropriate analogy would be if that official was given the power to rule by decree, dismiss parliament, rewrite laws (including the constitution) and never have an iota of accountability to the population. That is what an "Emergency Manager" is here in Michigan. They have absolute authority where they operate, and there is literally nothing that the residents can do about it.

(Lest anyone be confused, this includes if Republican Snyder is replaced by a Democrat. Snyder's predecessor, Democrat Jennifer Granholm, invoked the "Emergency Financial Manager" law numerous times, including in Detroit, where she was responsible for stripping the city's residents of the right to vote for the local Board of Education for five years.)

Any communist worth their salt should be up in arms about this. In our upcoming issue of Working People's Advocate, we have a lengthy piece on the situation in Detroit and our view on what workers should do. The last part of that article is below:


It is clear from all of the events of the last period that there is a consensus among the ruling classes that Detroit is to be a “test kitchen” for the use of bankruptcy to break the back of the working class, even though it is unconstitutional in the State of Michigan to do so. (That, incidentally, is why an Ingham County judge put a hold on the bankruptcy filing a day after it was made.) There are several other states that have similar laws that prevent the looting of pensions by city and state governments via bankruptcy.

No section of the exploiting and oppressing classes or their politicians plan to stop this assault on Detroit’s workers. The same is true for the pro-corporate business unions of the AFL-CIO and CTW, who have issued several statements appealing to workers to continue working and not openly oppose the bankruptcy filing — to say nothing of the “emergency” dictator and his co-conspirators in Lansing and the city government, and their plans to break the back of the city’s workers and auction off the city to its creditors.

It is up to workers themselves to put a stop to this! It is time that our brothers and sisters in the city organize themselves to fight against austerity and unionbusting. Workers are already talking with each other about the bankruptcy at work and at home. Meeting up and discussing these issues openly is the first step to organizing against the plans of the ruling classes. From these meetings can emerge committees and assemblies in workplaces and working-class neighborhoods that can not only allow for real discussion, but also for organizing and coordinating mass actions against the attacks.

Over the next period, as the effects of the ruling classes’ assault begin to be felt, these committees and assemblies can begin to work together. For example, representatives from neighborhood committees can meet with those from workplace assemblies in a given area as a larger district workers’ council that can coordinate actions, and, in many areas, begin to create “freedom zones” through occupations and take control of local essential services, especially those services facing privatization or are slated to be auctioned off to the very capitalists who have been devastating Detroit for more than 60 years.

Once these moves, along with larger mass workers’ actions like strikes (including general strikes of all Detroit workers), have shut down the plans of Orr, Bing and Snyder, workers can then call an all-Detroit workers’ congress and drive the dictator and his political co-conspirators out of the city by taking political (state) power in its own name.

Once workers are in control, the situation can change rapidly. Workers’ control and rule of Detroit would mean that the debt that the old regime ran up with Wall Street would be repudiated, and that money can be used to begin a massive reconstruction program. (Seizing control of the banks and expropriating the assets of the corporations and businesses in the city would mean even more of an ability to rebuild Detroit.) One of the first targets of reconstruction would be the reopening and retooling of the city’s idle factories under direct workers’ control, as well as a massive public works program to rebuild the city’s roads, schools, houses and buildings.

This is not some utopian dream. We as workers have the power to do everything mentioned above ... and more! All we have to do is agree that this is what needs to be done and do it.

The ruling classes are hoping that they can convince Detroit’s workers to give their de facto approval for the dictatorship and “bankruptcy plan” by re-electing Bing and the cowardly rubber stamp called the City Council. The Workers Party, through its members and supporters in Detroit, calls on our fellow workers to show their rejection of the ruling classes’ agenda through protests at the Young Building and every polling place in the city on primary election day and a campaign of mass spoiling of primary ballots by writing “No Bankruptcy” and/or “Workers’ Power” on the paper.

[Consistent.Surprise]

Martin Blank: beautiful addition to my explanation!
The article is from what source?

I think what some folks (not on here) are missing is that there isn't a search or push to remove the party elected officials; Snyder is considered a fiscal repub, not a straight up repub. & Granholm did something damaging to Detroit public schools on the advice of what Archer did in the mid 90's (which pushed my like for him out the door. Mind you I was about 20 & still very strongly dem).

No matter our elected officials here, until October of 2014, they are under the whims of Orr who kowtows to Snyder & will to whomever is elected next year if the term is extended. Otherwise it will be another puppet (as most elected are to the banks). The EM holds so much power & has been thrust upon an already hurting city. Could this have been avoided if Council & Bing (mayor) had filed before having an EM appointed? I am not sure but I do think the pensioners would not be in fear of losing their whopping 18-22k a year.

[Jimmie Higgins]

My apologies.

What I see is that the comments about it being a push to remove republicans & replace them with dems is incorrect. As a person living in Detroit, all of our mayors since the riots in 67 have been dems. Throughout the southeast region of Michigan, the vast majority of elected officials are dems.
The comment made would be apropos for Grand Rapids.

As for our workers, there are many who are not sitting back during this & actually filed restraining orders against the governor and the EM. Our pensioners as well as our current public services employees are not being quiet about the Chapter 9 filing.

So what does it look like on the ground? People are blaming city council as much as the govenor? Has there been any significant organizing yet from communities or liberal groups or radicals or are people still kinda shocked? What are likely to be some of the initial responces from below as well as from any existing mainstream efforts?

[Consistent.Surprise]

Jimmy,
I do blame council & the mayor because they could have filed. Instead they sat on their hands & Snyder passed a law (with riders, so no chance of repeal) & was able to get back at Detroit government for not leasing Belle Isle (I read the lease & never would have consented)

As for action, the federal building is being picketed tomorrow (8/2). As for the pensioners I'm not sure of. Detroit is a funny city (& this is part of my love for it) in the way that it gets crapped on by the state & suburbs (sometimes) & the people kind of just keep trucking along.
A lot of folks are upset, but the apathy of this city is deafening. I think a lot of people expected this, aren't surprised by it, & are just thinking of how they need to survive (or how it will impact their survival).

[Martin Blank]

Martin Blank: beautiful addition to my explanation!
The article is from what source?

It's from the August issue of our monthly magazine, Working People's Advocate. The article, and the rest of the issue, will be posted on our website later today, and the magazine will be available for purchase through our website at the same time.