non-market competition (sports)

[liberlict]

So how y'all feel about competitions that don't involve markets? Like sports, for example. In a communist society, do you envision that competitive physical activity, via casual or organised participation, provide an arena for people / teams to compete against each other for the entertainment of spectators and the pursuit of glory for participants, will have a role?

[BIXX]

Honestly, it might only matter amongst those who play the sport. I feel that under capitalism it is kinda used as a way to distract people from their problems, which they cannot solve (on their own). With the loss of structural oppression, which can only be dealt with by revolution, sports may lose popularity. On the other hand, because people have more free time, maybe they will devote more time to sports. Who can say?

[liberlict]

Honestly, it might only matter amongst those who play the sport. I feel that under capitalism it is kinda used as a way to distract people from their problems, which they cannot solve (on their own). With the loss of structural oppression, which can only be dealt with by revolution, sports may lose popularity. On the other hand, because people have more free time, maybe they will devote more time to sports. Who can say?

But sports predates capitalism, doesn't it? What about the gladiators in the Roman Colosseum?

[BIXX]

But sports predates capitalism, doesn't it? What about the gladiators in the Roman Colosseum?

Yes, but that is another horribly oppressive system.

Another thing I neglected is that sports can give the semblance of the rich and the poor coming together and being friends, interacting, etc... As a mirage to convince people that there is no class warfare.

[liberlict]

Yes, but that is another horribly oppressive system.

Another thing I neglected is that sports can give the semblance of the rich and the poor coming together and being friends, interacting, etc... As a mirage to convince people that there is no class warfare.

So you are hopeful that sports will have no role in a communist society?

[BIXX]

So you are hopeful that sports will have no role in a communist society?

No, in fact I particularly enjoy wrestling, boxing, MMA, etc... I just recognize that in many ways they are used as a tool to cool down class conflict, even if it's under false pretenses or if it's due to misdirection.

I believe they will have a role, however, I believe it will be far different from today's. I think it'll be more about fun than being the absolute best, but those who wish to be the best also could be. I doubt people who do not wrestle, or have a friend or family me ever who wrestles, will care about wrestling, wrestlers, or their achievements though. Just like wrestlers won't care about other sports. They'd probably know almost nothing about them, as I imagine that the sporting communities would end up with most of their news remaining within them, as they'd be the only people who'd care.

[rylasasin]

So you are hopeful that sports will have no role in a communist society?

Like everything else, it's not that simple.

You have to remember: there's a big difference between professional sports (IE what you see in ESPN) and pastime/amature sports (what you see in the local park.)

The former will, yes definitely lose its value. In capitalist society (as well as the societies that preceded it). Professional sports serves as both a distraction from the daily woes of the proletariat (as well as a gambling ground for the bourgeoisie) and as a vehicle for reaction (in particular, nationalism).

The latter? No. In fact, given the fact that people will be given more free time and the fact will be less atomized and more social than they are under capitalism, I wouldn't' be surprised if you actually see an increase in this.
But then again that's just speculation I'll admit.

[#FF0000]

The former will, yes definitely lose its value.

No.


Professional sports serves as both a distraction from the daily woes of the proletariatNot everything is a bourgeois conspiracy. Every good thing is a distraction from the daily woes of the proletariat.


and as a vehicle for reaction (in particular, nationalism).
Nah. This and the other point you made are especially silly when we look at European football culture and the overtly political and left-wing ultras clubs behind certain teams (not to say there aren't right wing ones too, of course).

Anyway, sports would change for sure, but it's hard to say how. Don't see why there wouldn't be "professional sports" like we have now. Obviously things like sponsorship and that kind of thing wouldn't happen and teams would most likely be "owned" by the local fans -- kind of like how the Green Bay Packers and a lot of other teams are.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Yeah IMO there will be more sports because people will have free time. There's nothing wrong with competition when it's just the bragging rights at stake. There's everything wrong with competition that leaves some people homeless or could cause our rulers to decide to launch some nukes and end up killing millions.

I don't attribute much to an inherent human nature, but the desire play in some form is human nature.

Sports might be very different, but they could also be very similar. We don't need to have a feudal system for people to enjoy chess or some other things that originated in those societies.

[Igor]

marx reading circles have to be the only thing i've never seen referred to as being "bourgeoisie distractions" by commies

[Jimmie Higgins]

marx reading circles have to be the only thing i've never seen referred to as being "bourgeoisie distractions" by commiesAre you sure...
http://www.revleft.com/vb/radical-reading-circles-t182283/index.html?p=2645033

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

So how y'all feel about competitions that don't involve markets? Like sports, for example. In a communist society, do you envision that competitive physical activity, via casual or organised participation, provide an arena for people / teams to compete against each other for the entertainment of spectators and the pursuit of glory for participants, will have a role?

I hate to be pedant about things, well not really I love it, but sports are not exactly non-market. Especially in professional sports the competition is for bonusses which players get, sponsors, advertisement and prize-money.
Not to mention the buying and selling of players.
Non-proffesional sports have this too but are less driven by it, of course.

It is clear that the money aspect of it will fall away, though I don't think competitive sports will just seize to exist. I also don't really see why competition is necesarily bad, especially in things like sport.

[Bardo]

Certain aspects of sports entertainment should ideally change. As of now, most forms of mass entertainment are exploited by commercial interests. The sports industry, the music industry, the film industry are all tools of commercial advertisement at best and straight up propaganda at worst. While these aspects would ideally be removed from entertainment, I don't think sport in general is harmful to class consciousness or mass awareness.

If the business aspect is removed from competitive entertainment, I don't have a problem with it. As a communist, my issue isn't with all forms of competition in every aspect of life and society, its with economic competition.

[The Idler]

The ICC have a fantastic series of articles on sport
http://en.internationalism.org/worldrevolution/201301/6055/history-sport-under-capitalism-part-i-sport-ascendant-phase-capitalism-1

http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201301/6346/history-sport-under-capitalism-part-ii-sport-decadent-capitalism-1914-today

http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/201302/6420/history-sport-under-capitalism-part-iii-sport-nationalism-and-imperialism

[Zutroy]

marx reading circles have to be the only thing i've never seen referred to as being "bourgeoisie distractions" by commies

I think I personally would refer to the less doctrinaire ones as such, depending on the attendees.

[UncleLenin]

I would not build sports arenas because on occasion sports can lead to hate and even physical attacks because someone supports a certain team. Sports today also distracts people from realizing the problems in society. Many of my friends spend very much of their time watching or playing sports and, as a result, they are very uninterested in politics.

I am not discouraging people from watching or playing sports, but remember this: your life is not going to be any better or any worse after having watched a sports game.

[G4b3n]

If a so called "communist" society did restrict people's liberty to play sports, it would not be any society I would desire to live in. Not because I value sports or anything, but because I value liberty.

Unless of course someone can explain to me how competitive sports are infringing upon the freedoms of others.

[a_wild_MAGIKARP]

I don't see anything wrong with competition, when people's lives and/or well-being aren't at stake, like they are in capitalist free market competition.

Like others have said, people will have more free time and will probably play more sports because of that. No one is going to stop them if they want to. And I think people will still be interested in professional sports, just because they like to watch very good players.