Revleft is in a serious rut ...

[Popular Front of Judea]

If I see one more "Was Stalin really a bad dude?" thread or one more inane poll I am going to lose it. Is there another forum where intelligent socialists of all 'traditions' -- and the occasional anarchist -- discuss theory and practice? (Getting together for beer would be good too.)

[rylasasin]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v213/rylasasin/stalinbaddudes_zpsa26c5247.gif

[Jimmie Higgins]

If I see one more "Was Stalin really a bad dude?" thread or one more inane poll I am going to lose it. Is there another forum where intelligent socialists of all 'traditions' -- and the occasional anarchist -- discuss theory and practice? (Getting together for beer would be good too.)Aww. I think it goes in cycles - it usually seems that when local and world politics are sort of quiet, that topics here go into a rut because without outside events to follow people tend to talk about the same old questions or begin to make more sectarian or tendency-based(/baiting) threads.

Help us break out of it - post some complicated (non-baiting) topics - there's pleanty of them from historical to current.

Here, I'll try one - it's something I've been wondering about:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/black-migration-contemporary-t182251/index.html?t=182251

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

1. This is the biggest website for revolutionaries to come together by far.

2. I don't actually think the recent discussions on Stalin, anarchism vs DOTP have been that bad. One of the threads on Stalin has actually lasted 13 odd pages and is still staying sort of on track - the one with Paul Cockshott, ComradeOm discussing the economic history of the USSR in terms of wages in the 1920s and 30s is actually fascinating and useful, not to mention historically very interesting.

[Sasha]

God forbid young people get the same opportunities to develop and learn as you did...

[Popular Front of Judea]

Marx help them if their sole source of information is Revleft.

[Sasha]

For many newbees it is. Sure there are fora with more theoretical depth (libcom for example) but as an accessible easy to find broad entry point for young isolated "recruits" revleft furfills an unique role.

[The Feral Underclass]

^It can be frustrating though.

[Sasha]

No denying that, but like Jimmy said, its on us to raise the overal quality and depth of discussion and doing so without raising the bar of entry.
Complaining and desertion doesn't help.

[Sentinel]

As psycho said, Revleft has an important role both as an online meeting place for more or less isolated left sympathisers, as well as a learning resource for people just getting into the ideology for the first time. People just learning about the nuances such as what the different tendencies and orgs are etc.

Here one can learn the basic arguments and get a first contact with initially the ideas of, and later also physically, outside the board, with different members belonging to different organisations and groups active in the 'real life' world. Even though some groups and tendencies may be overrepresented here compared to their real world size, also actually large ones (by current revolutionary left standards) have a presence here.

This leads to news events being discussed from the positions of these organisations, which is quite informative. Any major political event or topic is bound to be brought up here quickly enough.

So the purposes of the board are basically, in no particular order, a learning resource, a news resource, and a contact resource. It works fine as all of those imo, but it will never be perfect but always be a work in progress. This isn't really strange if one considers that it's basically administrated on an entirely voluntary basis, by a bunch of busy activists.

We are constantly trying to find ideas and means to improve the quality further, of course. People in the Committed usergroup, ie basically most veteran members, can post suggestions in a specific Proposal forum, and may be considered to join the BA team.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Alternatives: Kasama, libcom... each site has its strengths and weaknesses. I think it is good for people to spend time in each area and absorb some of the different views on events. There is no perfect site in terms of discussion. I would learn to simply ignore the endless debates on Stalin and so forth.

[Decolonize The Left]

I came to revleft with no leftist understanding perhaps eight years ago. It was intimidating and confusing, the people were hostile and aggressive, so I left for about two years until I felt I had a better understanding of what I was talking about (and wanted to talk about). I came back then and found it much easier to navigate and interact.

I've been a local mod, global mod, and an admin. I've had a role in restructuring this forum. So I have a somewhat decent understanding of this board and its function within a wider context. I can tell you the following:

This board is unique in its size and spectrum of discussion. In being such, it is subject to a size and spectrum of quality and topics. There will always be basic topics which get rehashed over and over again and this is fine because many topics deserve rehashing. No on is making anyone post or read any thread; you can involve yourself as you see fit.
This board also fosters a community, no matter how distant, splintered, and superficial. Many members have met many others and hence, even in a smallest sense, this board brings people together who would otherwise not have met.
This board is necessary. It is the entrance point and fulcrum of leftist discussion on the internet (discussions on the value of that claim another time). There must be a place like this online, and so there is.

Our job as participants is merely to make it as good as it can be through our actions. I see that the OP has only been here since January and hence I think the thread topic is understandable. I have had many such moments in my time. And so, my final thought: this board, despite everything I just said, I just an internet board. It is not your life. If you are getting upset at it it is probably best you step away for a while and come back when you are able to see things more clearly.

Just my thoughts.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

It's because the ban-policy is too weak.

[BIXX]

It's because the ban-policy is too weak.

Pssshhhh Marxists :grin: haha, just kidding.

@the OP: I understand, and it seems that we both joined around the same time. I think it's tough, mainly because we both have probably been squashed in debates before or had it explained to us why our opinions, ideas, or theories are problematic or wrong. Especially as a newb it can feel hostile when it isn't.

However, the Stalin threads, if you look through them, can teach you either lot about Stalin or that you hate the history of the USSR. Either way, the Stalin threads will die off for a couple weeks, then they'll be on a few, off a few etc...

[Ele'ill]

Help us break out of it - post some complicated (non-baiting) topics - there's pleanty of them from historical to current.

I think this is the point here but I've noticed the criticism often goes from 'the rut' to the realization that the desire isn't for just some 'better' discussion but for discussion on applicable and tangible ideas and not stuff about history or abstract economic theory. Users are often actually expressing their desire to learn about or engage with praxis in a more physical way which I think goes back to why the forum starts buzzing around current events (with many users posting from the actual geographic locations that the events are taking place in). It's a symptom of irrelevance and a symptom of being caged.

[darkblues]

If RevLeft is in a rut, how would you describe the left....Offline!

I second other comments, with over 10000 members this really is a forum for the like minded to not only discuss ideas but to develop and challenge their own thinking and become critical, reflexive and so on.

Unfortunately we all have different abilities. I'm sure the raiser of this thread can avoid the polls and the inane topics if he so wishes. We're not all concrete fuckers with years of revolutionary experience under our belts, for some people the polls and the Stalin threads might be a highlight. Reading such intellectual chauvinism as this may make one feel small and put them off making the effort...might be just me though.

[ComradeOm]

Would anyone really disagree that the quality of RevLeft has been steadily declining for years? Honestly? Even the standard of Stalin discussions is far from what it once was. The site is not in a particularly good place right now.

And that's a pity. I learnt a huge amount when I first arrived here, all those years ago. I had long discussions on theory and could expect to have at least 3-4 top quality posters per tendency to pump for information. I look at where those posters are now and I see that they've either left or been forced to leave. I don't see how anyone joining the site today could benefit in the same way that I did


It's because the ban-policy is too weak.I'd suggest that it's because there is no coherent ban policy. There is a lengthy roll call of intelligent and valuable contributors who have been banned over the years for the pettiest and flimsiest of reasons. Conversely there are posters who contribute nothing to the site beyond vitriol and abuse who are still hanging around.

And that matters. The idea that good users can simply be replaced has surely been proven to be nonsense. Similarly, people are mad if they think that periodically purging some of the brightest posters is going to contribute to a positive and quality level of discussion.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Would anyone really disagree that the quality of RevLeft has been steadily declining for years? Honestly? Even the standard of Stalin discussions is far from what it once was. The site is not in a particularly good place right now.

And that's a pity. I learnt a huge amount when I first arrived here, all those years ago. I had long discussions on theory and could expect to have at least 3-4 top quality posters per tendency to pump for information. I look at where those posters are now and I see that they've either left or been forced to leave. I don't see how anyone joining the site today could benefit in the same way that I did

I'd suggest that it's because there is no coherent ban policy. There is a lengthy roll call of intelligent and valuable contributors who have been banned over the years for the pettiest and flimsiest of reasons. Conversely there are posters who contribute nothing to the site beyond vitriol and abuse who are still hanging around.

And that matters. The idea that good users can simply be replaced has surely been proven to be nonsense. Similarly, people are mad if they think that periodically purging some of the brightest posters is going to contribute to a positive and quality level of discussion.

That's what I meant by weak.

[blake 3:17]

There are some questions that are going to come up again and again. And sometimes there are people with some fresh perspectives or interesting ways of talking about old topics.

[darkblues]

Hows about a subsidiary website called revleftVanguard com. Those experienced posters with say over a 1000 posts and 1000 rep. points who feel revleft is becoming beneath them could have some privacy and protection from us...

[ComradeOm]

Hows about a subsidiary website called revleftVanguard com. Those experienced posters with say over a 1000 posts and 1000 rep. points who feel revleft is becoming beneath them could have some privacy and protection from us...The problem is not new posters. And nor is it reoccurring topics*. It's the quality of discussion that goes into the threads; something that should be provided by 'experienced posters' but is currently often lacking

There always has and always will be a churn on this site - posters come and posters go - but this should not necessarily affect quality. Knowledge and style gets passed down through the 'generations'. The problem is that many good posters have been driven off in the past number of years, while there's been inadequate attention paid to the trolls and others 'weeds' who choke discourse. Quality suffers as a result

*We were not having this conversation, say, five years ago. And no, the thread mix was little different then. Less Stalinists but more Trot/anarchist handbags. But the quality of those threads was higher

[blake 3:17]

Hows about a subsidiary website called revleftVanguard com. Those experienced posters with say over a 1000 posts and 1000 rep. points who feel revleft is becoming beneath them could have some privacy and protection from us...

But after 300 posts there, they're bounced back here, right?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Would anyone really disagree that the quality of RevLeft has been steadily declining for years? Honestly? Even the standard of Stalin discussions is far from what it once was. The site is not in a particularly good place right now.

It's difficult. I would suggest that Revleft is still a very accessible and useful learning resource for 'newbies' and those who want to go more in-depth into theory alike. I would also say that, in terms of the past couple of years, certainly since the mass exodus, the site is doing very well at the moment. We have had a lot of fresh blood into the BA in 2013 and have actually moved a fair amount of new policy, and done a lot of work that has gone un-noticed, for example cleaning up groups, making sure every mod/admin is active on the board in general and in their respective fora in particular, clearing up the blog section (literally thousands of posts) and generally making sure the board runs well.


And that's a pity. I learnt a huge amount when I first arrived here, all those years ago. I had long discussions on theory and could expect to have at least 3-4 top quality posters per tendency to pump for information. I look at where those posters are now and I see that they've either left or been forced to leave. I don't see how anyone joining the site today could benefit in the same way that I did

It is a shame when good posters leave or are banned, but equally the job of Revleft - and one of its main responsibilities, and one which I think the board still does - is to be accessible at an introductory level to those new to the left.


I'd suggest that it's because there is no coherent ban policy. There is a lengthy roll call of intelligent and valuable contributors who have been banned over the years for the pettiest and flimsiest of reasons. Conversely there are posters who contribute nothing to the site beyond vitriol and abuse who are still hanging around.

There is generally a coherent disciplinary policy. The problem comes when there are situations for which there is no ban policy, because that situation is un-foreseeable. Then there cannot be a ban policy, because nobody could predict the situation occurring. Of course, this being the internet, this inevitably leads to drama. However, having once been one of those who was suspicious of the actions of the BA (before I was a mod), I can reveal that when the CU or general membership thinks something dramatic is going on, the reality is often far, far more mundane.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

*We were not having this conversation, say, five years ago. And no, the thread mix was little different then. Less Stalinists but more Trot/anarchist handbags. But the quality of those threads was higher

With respect, five years ago you couldn't have had this conversation because you were all (this isn't directed personally at you, ComradeOm) busy dickswinging in the Commie Club.

[#FF0000]

"REVLEFT IS GETTING BAD"

Revleft was always bad and you're not helping

edit: that's a joke

[blake 3:17]

With respect, five years ago you couldn't have had this conversation because you were all (this isn't directed personally at you, ComradeOm) busy dickswinging in the Commie Club.


I almost got into the Club. Glad I missed it.

[The Douche]

It's difficult. I would suggest that Revleft is still a very accessible and useful learning resource for 'newbies' and those who want to go more in-depth into theory alike. I would also say that, in terms of the past couple of years, certainly since the mass exodus, the site is doing very well at the moment. We have had a lot of fresh blood into the BA in 2013 and have actually moved a fair amount of new policy, and done a lot of work that has gone un-noticed, for example cleaning up groups, making sure every mod/admin is active on the board in general and in their respective fora in particular, clearing up the blog section (literally thousands of posts) and generally making sure the board runs well.



It is a shame when good posters leave or are banned, but equally the job of Revleft - and one of its main responsibilities, and one which I think the board still does - is to be accessible at an introductory level to those new to the left.



There is generally a coherent disciplinary policy. The problem comes when there are situations for which there is no ban policy, because that situation is un-foreseeable. Then there cannot be a ban policy, because nobody could predict the situation occurring. Of course, this being the internet, this inevitably leads to drama. However, having once been one of those who was suspicious of the actions of the BA (before I was a mod), I can reveal that when the CU or general membership thinks something dramatic is going on, the reality is often far, far more mundane.

This is a good post, and I think all the new staff members we added right before I left have done good work, and I think the board is on track to get a bit better.

[Sentinel]

With respect, five years ago you couldn't have had this conversation because you were all (this isn't directed personally at you, ComradeOm) busy dickswinging in the Commie Club.

To be fair, ComradeOm was never involved in the CC for a longer period of time. He resigned it soon after joining, and was always proposed for membership, but refused consistently.

But this is also why he doesn't know the full reasoning and discussions behind many bans, as they were decided in the CC or in the other forums he can't browse. But in the casse of long time members, action is always preceded by discussion.

From the outside, with no reliable information except the official logs, administrative action may in controversial cases seem arbitrary, but generally it has good reasons.

[Popular Front of Judea]

Okay I wish to apologize to those who have worked behind the scenes to make this forum a more useful, more enjoyable experience. My hat is off to you for doing what is often a thankless task.

I hope we are all here to learn. A place like this should be about bringing new arrivals to the site and to the subject up to speed while providing an intellectually stimulating space for those who have mastered the basics.

As far as the STALIN! threads go I have no objection to thoughtful discussion of the history and economy of the Soviet Union. (May it rest in peace. My ostensible birthday is actually its last day in existence.) I believe there is much to be learned from the experience, good and bad. (After the last 20 odd years I do have to acknowledge that the existence of the Soviet Union was a tent stake that was holding reformist social democracy in place.) What I do find annoying here is the constant mentioning of Stalin here as a means to establish rrrevolutionary cred. We get it, can we move on now?

My own status is that of a "returnee". I have a passing familarity with the primary works of Marxism -- plus I have read a number of articles and books I believe Marxists should read. See: Red Plenty (Francis Spufford). I was last active in socialist politics, or any political action for that matter over 20 years ago. I did march in a couple of Occupy called marches and did a couple of overnight security shifts at the encampment. (The less said about that the better...)

I have monitored the wonderful world of revolutionary politics from afar these last 20 years by subscribing to Leftist Trainspotters and reading blogs like Lenin's Tomb. (Ken Macleod's blog is a treasure trove of links.) It would be great if I could engage in discussion with my fellow leftist dissidents in a neutral, non-adversarial setting. (Think Ricks bar in Casablanca or the Star Wars cantina :))

[synthesis]

The CC was great back in the day, and I think it was the reason this forum got the head-start it did. I would also pessimistically say that it was ultimately unfeasible and inevitable that RL has adopted the sort of administrative qualities it has today, as a consequence of its growth; can anyone who was here ten years ago imagine if major discussion boards like Reddit were run the same way we did things back then?

But the argument that the site is going downhill in quality is both perfectly understandable and so subjective as to be as worthless as a similar judgment about the decline in quality of, say, popular music or film over time. It's not that there's anything objectively demonstrating that the site is going downhill; it's that the material isn't as fresh to you, you can't empathize with the newcomers as much, and you notice the faults more simply because you've had more time to determine what they are.

In short - and this has been said probably thousands of times before - it's not the site that's changing, it's you.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Stalin is our leader,
We shall not be moved,
Stalin is our leader,
We shall not be moved,
Like a line of socialist riot police,
We shall not be moved!


But in all seriousness, I'm just glad this place isn't called "Che Lives" any more.

[MarxSchmarx]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v213/rylasasin/stalinbaddudes_zpsa26c5247.gif

Don't troll. This is a verbal warning.


It's because the ban-policy is too weak.

I must admit I don't agree. We are a general tendency board and thus strengthening the ban requirements can have a very adverse effect very quickly. the system in place right now does a pretty good job ensuring all that the worse offenders get a fair hearing.


Stalin is our leader,
We shall not be moved,
Stalin is our leader,
We shall not be moved,
Like a line of socialist riot police,
We shall not be moved!


But in all seriousness, I'm just glad this place isn't called "Che Lives" any more.

I think what we call ourselves matters to some degree, but I don't think it's the end all be all. Even che-lives can be regarded as tongue in cheek by e.g., anarchists.

[Geiseric]

Hows about a subsidiary website called revleftVanguard com. Those experienced posters with say over a 1000 posts and 1000 rep. points who feel revleft is becoming beneath them could have some privacy and protection from us...

I agree more often with new posters than old ones for some reason most of the time.

[Sea]

To be fair, just because some of the evil tankies and sinister revisionists are getting jiggy right now on the boards doesn't mean that there were any more or less sinister tankies or evil revisionists than there was a year ago, 5 years ago, or before revleft even existed.

[darkblues]

In short - and this has been said probably thousands of times before - it's not the site that's changing, it's you.

...the nail on the head...

this is the difficulty re: qualitative judgements. Reading this thread just makes me smell a rat that's all, i can't order the thoughts or put them into coherent sentences as i don't think i'm quality enough yet, but here are some key words:

'virtual', 'nihilism', 'egoism', 'ivory tower', 'cynicism', 'elitism', 'boredom', 'short term memory loss', 'long term memory loss', and 'tradition'.

[Popular Front of Judea]

I don't know where you are going with the free association but 'ivory tower; and 'elitism' had better not be directed my way...


...the nail on the head...

this is the difficulty re: qualitative judgements. Reading this thread just makes me smell a rat that's all, i can't order the thoughts or put them into coherent sentences as i don't think i'm quality enough yet, but here are some key words:

'virtual', 'nihilism', 'egoism', 'ivory tower', 'cynicism', 'elitism', 'boredom', 'short term memory loss', 'long term memory loss', and 'tradition'.

[ComradeOm]

It is a shame when good posters leave or are banned, but equally the job of Revleft - and one of its main responsibilities, and one which I think the board still does - is to be accessible at an introductory level to those new to the leftI disagree. When I look back at the very first post/thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/trotskyism-t36571/index.html?t=36571) that I made on this site (a Stalinist/Trotskyist thread of all things) what strikes me is the calibre of the responses that I received. With the exception of Jimmie, who really deserves a medal for longevity, there's no way that I would have had the same welcome today

And it's not difficult to see why. Back then you had the likes of Redstar, Led Zeppelin, LSD, severin, CyM, etc. That is, peeps who really knew their stuff. Then there was the next generation, your Nothing Human Is Alien, Wanted Man, chegitz guevara, Bilan, YKTMX, syndicat, etc. And plenty more that I can't remember because they've been banned

People move on, that's life. But with RevLeft we've pro-actively moved so many good users on, without replacing them, that it's left a gap. Tankies haven't been smacked down with cutting lines of randomly bolded text and the overall education of subsequent members has lapsed. To be blunt: I consider the forum's overall membership to be much less literate on basic Marxism than it was when I first joined. The sad state of the Theory forum reflects that

So, no, I don't consider RevLeft to be fit for purpose. A new joiner today is much more likely to encounter either pointless flame wars between the tendencies or a bastardised version of theory. If they're lucky then the likes of Jimmie or Invader Zim will stop by and dispel some illusions but what they will almost certainly not witness is an in-depth and enlightening theoretical discussion between two posters who really know their stuff. And you cannot place a value on that


With respect, five years ago you couldn't have had this conversation because you were all (this isn't directed personally at you, ComradeOm) busy dickswinging in the Commie Club.With respect, I think it's disappointing that that narrative of the CC has been swallowed by anyone

As Sentinel helpfully points out, I was as critical as anyone as to the CC when it existed. So mark my words when I say that that situation was infinitely preferable to the mess that we have now. For all the drama of the CC, it remained largely in-house. The same people who were busy purging each other from it over trivialities (including Redstar) were those who were simultaneously making great contributions to the intellectual level of discussions elsewhere. There was no dichotomy there

Which is why the system worked. Drama was largely self-contained and those who wanted to indulge in it could do so (those who absented themselves from it, eg moi, went untroubled) while the boards was as good an educational tool as it ever has been. Now we've got zero insight into the administration of the forums, a good chunk of the best users have been banned or alienated and the level of discussion is pretty dire. Hooray for the BA


But the argument that the site is going downhill in quality is both perfectly understandable and so subjective as to be as worthless as a similar judgment about the decline in quality of, say, popular music or film over timeCan it be quantified? Probably not. But if you think that such a judgement is impossible then take a look at the Theory forum. Can you honestly claim that that this is good as it's ever been? A dozen active threads in the past week, only 1-2 of which are actually worth reading? That forum is a wreck

[BIXX]

I disagree. When I look back at the very first post/thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/trotskyism-t36571/index.html?t=36571) that I made on this site (a Stalinist/Trotskyist thread of all things) what strikes me is the calibre of the responses that I received. With the exception of Jimmie, who really deserves a medal for longevity, there's no way that I would have had the same welcome today

And it's not difficult to see why. Back then you had the likes of Redstar, Led Zeppelin, LSD, severin, CyM, etc. That is, peeps who really knew their stuff. Then there was the next generation, your Nothing Human Is Alien, Wanted Man, chegitz guevara, Bilan, YKTMX, syndicat, etc. And plenty more that I can't remember because they've been banned

People move on, that's life. But with RevLeft we've pro-actively moved so many good users on, without replacing them, that it's left a gap. Tankies haven't been smacked down with cutting lines of randomly bolded text and the overall education of subsequent members has lapsed. To be blunt: I consider the forum's overall membership to be much less literate on basic Marxism than it was when I first joined. The sad state of the Theory forum reflects that

So, no, I don't consider RevLeft to be fit for purpose. A new joiner today is much more likely to encounter either pointless flame wars between the tendencies or a bastardised version of theory. If they're lucky then the likes of Jimmie or Invader Zim will stop by and dispel some illusions but what they will almost certainly not witness is an in-depth and enlightening theoretical discussion between two posters who really know their stuff. And you cannot place a value on that

With respect, I think it's disappointing that that narrative of the CC has been swallowed by anyone

As Sentinel helpfully points out, I was as critical as anyone as to the CC when it existed. So mark my words when I say that that situation was infinitely preferable to the mess that we have now. For all the drama of the CC, it remained largely in-house. The same people who were busy purging each other from it over trivialities (including Redstar) were those who were simultaneously making great contributions to the intellectual level of discussions elsewhere. There was no dichotomy there

Which is why the system worked. Drama was largely self-contained and those who wanted to indulge in it could do so (those who absented themselves from it, eg moi, went untroubled) while the boards was as good an educational tool as it ever has been. Now we've got zero insight into the administration of the forums, a good chunk of the best users have been banned or alienated and the level of discussion is pretty dire. Hooray for the BA

Can it be quantified? Probably not. But if you think that such a judgement is impossible then take a look at the Theory forum. Can you honestly claim that that this is good as it's ever been? A dozen active threads in the past week, only 1-2 of which are actually worth reading? That forum is a wreck

Can you explain the CC to me?

Also, based on what you've posted, maybe we should move to a more open administration policy, where the average member of the board (maybe once they've had over a certain number of posts) is able to vote on decisions made regarding the board, and bans could maybe be handled this way as well? Who knows.

[ComradeOm]

Can you explain the CC to me?It was pretty much as you describe. Basically the Commie Club contained most of the active members of the site (you were voted in after, IIRC, some 200 posts) in an attempt to place the forums on a more democratic footing. Board policies were decided by vote, mods were elected and bans discussed/voted on

It was riddled with factions of course (such is the price of transparency) but overall it worked well and kept the site working smoothly. Drama was largely contained to the CC itself and there were enough balances in the system to make mass purges of the site impossible. Those days we'd all have laughed if someone accused dozens of long-standing members of being secret fascist infiltrators. Happier times

Personally I left because I wasn't a fan of the drama but I did so in the knowledge that at least the board's membership could be trusted to decide the basic direction of the site. I do not have the same confidence in the current BA, as many will know

Edit:

But this is also why he doesn't know the full reasoning and discussions behind many bans, as they were decided in the CC or in the other forums he can't browse. But in the casse of long time members, action is always preceded by discussion.Yes, I don't have access to the smoky rooms where bans are arbitrarily decided. Once I decided that I didn't want to know and now I'm denied the possibility of knowing. Along with most of the site's members. There's a distinction there - between an elective and open CC and the very incestuous closed shop that is the BA

[BIXX]

Maybe we should attempt to get the CC back then? I mean, how would we go about that?

[darkblues]

I don't know where you are going with the free association but 'ivory tower; and 'elitism' had better not be directed my way...

not sure as i don't know you...are they those you fear the most? i put them all at about level pegging, but they seem to influence each other. the glories of the human condition, i blame society.

i would also add 'immateriality' to my list, alongside the online 'virtual'. i wonder how doctor marx himself would theorise the impact of the internet and informationalism; i try to remember a time when there was no facebook, no twitter and then i remember where the power switch is on my laptop...oh, the romance of it all.

[ComradeOm]

The CC ain't coming back until the admins and site owner decide that they want it back. Which is unlikely to happen soon. Hence my tone here has been, when not indulgently nostalgic, fairly depressed. This thread is really just recognition of the damage already done

[synthesis]

Maybe we should attempt to get the CC back then? I mean, how would we go about that?

It's been tried before; I attempted to remake the "Committed User forum" into something similar, and all it got me was a couple infractions for "spam" and "trolling" and an eventual removal (not subject to CU review) for "obstructing administrative processes."

I'm not mad about it, and I'm certainly not saying it can't be done; I'm just trying to give you an idea of what to expect if you decide to try it and stick to your guns, so to speak.


Can it be quantified? Probably not. But if you think that such a judgement is impossible then take a look at the Theory forum. Can you honestly claim that that this is good as it's ever been? A dozen active threads in the past week, only 1-2 of which are actually worth reading? That forum is a wreck

I completely agree with your comments about the CC and the BA, but the forum has rarely been "as good as it's ever been."

No, there's no RS2K, and we don't have any other anti-Leninist Marxists who personally met Che Guevara, but we have people who are actively seeking to fill the void he left, and I'd argue that they just don't get the same credit because you were privy to more of their ideological development and therefore don't take them as seriously as you did the people here who helped to shape your own ideological development.

[The Feral Underclass]

Maybe we should attempt to get the CC back then? I mean, how would we go about that?

I really can't see that ever happening.

I was personally instrumental in the dissolution of the CC, insofar as it was my proposal and I argued for it quite fervently. At the time, I saw the CC as a total distraction from the rest of the board, especially because CC was predominately concerned with how it run itself. There were always threads about how to improve the procedures of CC and at the time it just seemed utterly pointless. I also, wrongly, argued that a message board should not be run as if it were some kind of democracy and that what the admins say should go, so long as they have been trusted by the owner of the board -- the popular argument from me was that you don't have democracy in other people's homes so why should there exist democracy on this forum. Even the idea of democracy on a forum is ludicrous, I argued.

I was totally wrong about that. I think the CC was an interesting experiment that had many flaws, but that ultimately provided a forum for membership input. It did make the community feel more like a community and that is something the CU is lacking very much. I also think that we should entertain the ideas of pre-figuration in all the things we try and do in the world, and I see no reason why that cannot be the same on a message board.

[Popular Front of Judea]

It's odd that I am the one urging this but can we stop the use of the pejorative word 'tankie'? (Unless someone uses it to describe themselves of course. ;) ) I do not think it furthers dialogue. As noted earlier I don't care for the evocation of Stalin at every occasion -- but I am all for discussion with those who wish to defend the policies of the former Soviet Union during the Stalin era. Paul Cockshot for example is a major asset to this forum. I happen to be a fan of the historian Eric Hobsbawm. As he never actually resigned from the British Communist Party -- even after 1956 and 1968 -- I guess he could be labeled a 'tankie'.

[The Feral Underclass]

Also, what is interesting about this thread is that it is the kind of thread CC used to have.

[The Feral Underclass]

What is your opinion on the CC? Was it a good idea or not?

See my edited post above.

[BIXX]

Thank you to everyone who's talked about the CC and whatnot.

To everyone, including those who believe we won't get it back, would anyone be willing to try?

[TheEmancipator]

It's because the ban-policy is too weak.


Considering some people are banned for reformism if they support "Left Front" parties and one dude was banned for pacifism, I would say the hidden moderators' discussion thread make a Moscow late 1930s trial look like Woodstock. I will probably be purged for this allegation.

Remember that awsome thread where you could denounce users for being fascist/reformist/etc? It resembled the kind of stories you heard in Nazi Germany about kids denouncing their own parents for "not adhering to the laws of the Fuhrer" because they didn't have hard on when Hitler's voice came over the radio. Funny thread though.

[ComradeOm]

No, there's no RS2K, and we don't have any other anti-Leninist Marxists who personally met Che Guevara, but we have people who are actively seeking to fill the void he left, and I'd argue that they just don't get the same credit because you were privy to more of their ideological development and therefore don't take them as seriously as you did the people here who helped to shape your own ideological development.I do take your argument but I don't agree with it. Yes, when I joined I clearly saw some posters as 'big beards' (even if I came to strongly disagree with some of them, eg RedStar). And the fact that they influence my development clearly built them up in my eyes. But I think it's easy to see why I was impressed when this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=550830&postcount=10) was one of the first posts I read on the forums

That, and others by similar posters, displayed a fluency in Marxism (if not always a love of grammar, ie Bobkindles) that you just don't see on the forums these days. Certainly not as prominently. On a certain qualitative level, the standard of discussion just isn't as high. Completely random example, but you're unlikely to stumble into Theory these days and find a discussion like this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/reformismi-t41106/index.html). I don't believe that this is simply nostalgia

I'd be much happier, obviously, if I could quantify this but given the limits on moving back through the forum's history it's (presumably) impossible to pull together a snapshot of the site, say, five years ago. But I'd be willing to bet that if you could look then you'd see that the 2008 Theory forum was more active with better quality threads

What is worth noting is that I don't blame the new joiners. We've got a lot a really smart people who've joined and a lot of really good posters. But the primary purpose of RevLeft is to educate these people, to give them a good grounding in Marxism/anarchism/whatever. I don't think the site has been doing that. As a result you've got sharp posters who don't have the same toolkit that previous RevLeft 'generations' took for granted. That's a problem

[The Feral Underclass]

Thank you to everyone who's talked about the CC and whatnot.

To everyone, including those who believe we won't get it back, would anyone be willing to try?

We aren't permitted to talk about bringing back the CC. This discussion is only reserved for the admins. There really is no recourse in trying to get the CC back. It is a decision for the admins and them only and from what I know of the situation, it is highly unlikely that they will bring it back, certainly not in the form it was in even if they do consider experimenting. I also suspect that this thread will be closed at some point.

[Ele'ill]

Considering some people are banned for reformism if they support "Left Front" parties and one dude was banned for pacifism, I would say the hidden moderators' discussion thread make a Moscow late 1930s trial look like Woodstock. I will probably be purged for this allegation.

It's never just for reformism or pacifism it's usually always for preaching that becomes derailing or other disruptive stuff that some goofy users of the forum like to completely overlook so they have a (false) clear cut cause for a new internet crusade and comparing any of this to any trial is really dumb get off your computer and go for a walk.

[TheEmancipator]

It's never just for reformism or pacifism it's usually always for preaching that becomes derailing or other disruptive stuff that some goofy users of the forum like to completely overlook so they have a (false) clear cut cause for a new internet crusade and comparing any of this to any trial is really dumb get off your computer and go for a walk.

Chill, mate, I'm only trolling the (considerably anarchist/anti-authoritarian lacking) moderation.

[Sentinel]

Well, whatever way the board will develop in the future, we have competent BA and CU teams that will decide on that. But however the case, there are rules on exactly where board policy may be discussed, which is in the CU Proposal forum, and the BA forums.

Except, of course, as already pointed out by TAT, proposals to reinstate the CC are specifically prohibited in any case. To put it short, this discussion is against board structure and rules.

And as ComradeOm said, it is indeed up to the owner of the board and his admins (especially the former) to ultimately decide what type of structure to have on Revleft.

Thread closed.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Chill, mate, I'm only trolling the (considerably anarchist/anti-authoritarian lacking) moderation.

And you can take a verbal warning for trolling the moderation, which contains anarchists, anti-authoritarians, trots and people who put their politics to one side for the good of the board, something I hear didn't happen when the CC was still going. You're welcome.