Can this Picture "Communism Kills" be refuted?

[Hexen]

I was browsing through DeviantArt and I stumbled across this:

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/204/c/0/communism_kills_by_dashinvaine-d6et3wa.jpg

Link: http://dashinvaine.deviantart.com/art/Communism-Kills-387669754

Any response or refutations to this picture and also the comments (especially dashinvaine the creator of the picture) below as well?

[#FF0000]

Why? Do you think you're going to convince the person who made this?

[Paul Pott]

The 100 million victims

http://images.smh.com.au/2009/12/27/1000767/rats1-420x0.jpg

[Hexen]

Actually I think I forgot to post the Image description actually:


Another risky foray into politics, although perhaps a useful health warning...

The quote 'this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality' is from Winston Churchill in 1920. Communism would clock up millions more killings before the century was out.

Some of the worst genocides in history were committed by Communists, notably Mao, Stalin, Mengistu and Pol Pot.
www.scaruffi.com/politics/dict... (http://www.deviantart.com/users/outgoing?http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html) Lenin and Trotsky were also ruthless mass-murderers.

Communism completely failed in the old Soviet Union, but unfortunately the intellectual heirs of Marx (via Herbert Marcuse and the like) are all too influential in the West, especially in academia. Anyone thinking of going to college, especially to study the arts, humanities or 'social sciences' should be wary of Cultural Marxist brainwashing. Look out for anyone who calls themselves 'progressive', or who likes to generalise about groups as oppressors or oppressed. This simplistic dichotomy is straight out of the Communist Manifesto. Look out for their double-standards, and their vituperative attacks on Western Civilization by use of one-sided 'critical theory'.

---
The killing of the Tsar and his family was on Lenin's orders. The daughters were finished off with bayonets. Thousands of Russians were summarily executed by the Cheka, the Communist secret police, in the aftermath of the Bolshevik coup and during the Red Terror.

One of the atrocities of the Soviet Union was the genocide in Ukraine 1932-3, known as the Holodomor, where a deliberate famine was used to break the people's resistance... The following is a quote from a communist leader speaking in the Kharkiv region in 1934:

"Famine in Ukraine was brought on to decrease the number of Ukrainians, replace the dead with people from other parts of the USSR, and thereby to kill the slightest thought of any Ukrainian independence."

- V. Danilov et al., Sovetskaia derevnia glazami OGPU_NKVD. T. 3, kn. 2. Moscow 2004. P. 572

www.holodomor.org.uk/ (http://www.holodomor.org.uk/)

The Communist state did not consider itself bound by the Tsarist regime's signing of the Hague Convention, and thus gave itself licence to carry out many war crimes.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_w... (http://www.deviantart.com/users/outgoing?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes)


Estimates at the total number of people killed by Communism during the 20th century range as high as 150 million (which is the figure worked out by R. J. Rummel. www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE... (http://www.deviantart.com/users/outgoing?http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM)

The 'Black book of Communism' places the figure at 95 million en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blac... (http://www.deviantart.com/users/outgoing?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism)


So it seems reasonable to go with 100 million as a round figure.

Pertinent article by Jim Goad:

takimag.com/article/the_bloody... (http://www.deviantart.com/users/outgoing?http://takimag.com/article/the_bloody_red_flag#axzz2Zm5IVECE)

Now can any of this can be refuted?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

http://s9.postimg.org/o2z9je7i7/capitalist_deaths.jpg
100 million deaths is complete bullshit but the irrational system of capitalism is basicallly an inexhaustable destruction of life, both literally and the soul-crushing dehumanising of contemporary existance, which puts 'communism' to shame.

[Paul Pott]

So the context is of a rant on "cultural Marxism".

It refutes itself.

[Sasha]

the only worthwhile response? : "stalinism got fuck all to do with communism, i dare you to take the effort to educate yourself"

[bcbm]

the skull with a hammer and sickle would be a pretty sweet logo though

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

the only worthwhile response? : "stalinism got fuck all to do with communism, i dare you to take the effort to educate yourself"

Brave response there...

[Sasha]

the skull with a hammer and sickle would be a pretty sweet logo though

yeah, i still kind of want the awesome logo of my "punk teens" favorite band Brezhnev tattoo'd, i only since then became colleagues with the members, the drummer is even my direct boss so it would feel a bit really weird now;

http://f0.bcbits.com/img/0000733484_100.png

[RedBen]

honestly, how many people have imperialists killed off? how many people starve to death daily(men women and CHILDREN), how many die from polluted water sources poisoned by oil companies, how many received the death penalty in prison, how many iraquis, in the falkland islands, how many native americans, how many during apartheid, occupation of imperialist countries have died? i don't have numbers but supposed we accept the numbers for the sake of argument. don't tell me capitalism is better. you have empty homes and homeless people in america, do you call that a roaring success? if cuba can give healthcare, education... ect. then the US can too, but they won't. it's fucked that in chicago, downtown you have people living in multi million dollar condos and have homeless folks at the foot of the building hungry. don't give me that shit, i grew up homeless, i'll be goddamned to support a system that says we deserved it.

[Brutus]

Anyone that uses the term 'cultural Marxism' doesn't deserve to be replied to.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Yes. Let's spend our valuable time replying to shit on Deviantart.

But since we're on the subject, I love how they quoted a bloodthirsty lunatic to really drive their message home.

[Captain Ahab]

This is fairly easy to refute.
On the "holodomor" it's fairly easy to counter with the works of Tauger and Wheatcroft.
http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Faculty/Tauger/Tauger,%20'The%201932%20Harvest%20and%20the%20Fami ne%20of%201933,%20SR%2091.pdf
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0333311078
As for Pol Pot: It's fairly common knowledge that he was deposed by the Vietnamese communists. As a nice little bonus the USA was rather supportive of the Khmer Rouge government after the Vietnamese came.
http://articles.latimes.com/1997-06-24/local/me-6271_1_pol-pot
As for Herr Mao, the famine was not intentional and how many died in it is far lower than what anti-communists claim.
http://www.macroscan.net/pdfs/rep_hun.pdf
There's also the criticisms by Mobo Gao you can find in his book.
As for Herr Mengistu, this one is a laugh. His government targeted a good deal of its repression and killings on the Marxist-Leninist organizations ERPR and MEISON.
RJ Rummel and the Black Book are both quack sources that no scholar would take seriously any more than they would Grover Furr.
As for the killing of the Tsar and his family it doesn't really change anything. The Revolutionaries in France didn't hesitate killing blue bloods yet you won't see anti-communists condemning the idea of the republic.
As for Herr Stalin, just show the classic picture on the MIA showing the fates of the Bolshevik Central Committee. Scroll down here http://www.marxists.org/subject/bolsheviks/
As for the Cheka, it's not like there wasn't a White Terror.
It's also not like capitalism doesn't have blood on its hands such as the various famines that happen in countries seen as capitalist or the mass murder perpetrated by Cappies like Suharto.
Also, none of these governments were communist and Marx never said "Blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne!" in any if his works.

[Brutus]

It seems very little when you consider 10,000,000 people die a year under capitlaism

[Ace High]

the skull with a hammer and sickle would be a pretty sweet logo though

I was thinking that same thing, I mean that would be a badass tattoo as well.

[rylasasin]

The killing of the Tsar and his family was on Lenin's orders. The daughters were finished off with bayonets.

Because capitalists never kill the people previously in power when they bring "freedom" to the countries they "liberate"... Right?


Famine in Ukraine was brought on-

Because as we all know, "Communists" magically and artificially cause famines to happen, instead of natural weather conditions and such, right? I mean, It's just like a giant game of Simcity where you have a bunch of buttons labeled "Famine" , "Tornado", "Monster", "Earthquake", Etc.?

Personally I would have just spammed the "Monster" button. More interesting that way.


In reality though, this whole thing is nothing more than piling logical fallacies upon logical fallacies, namely equivication (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Equivocation) (they or other people called them communists. therefore they were marxists), piling upon arguement from adverse consequence (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_adverse_consequences) to make an appeal to emotion (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion), all without having to refute any actual stances of Marxism or marxist theory.

[DoCt SPARTAN]

The capitalist American government has killed millions and tried to over throw governments, and force imperialism on many different countries. Whenever america wants to spread 'democracy', they usually end up terrorizing the population and bombing cities. Now a days they will just send drones to kill families. Every unfair and unjust government will kill innocent civilians, to spread fear! State terrorism.

[NeonTrotski]

I hate when the slaves employ violence when revolting against the slave owners.
Those mean old Bolsheviks should have let the tzars children live in the palace at least till Child Protective Services could be notified.
I also hate tornadoes, they kill millions of poor.
I read one book and now I'm anti meteorologist. They study tornadoes but I refuse to listen to their bs about air pollution and the decrepit conditions of trailer parks. Ill just hate on the people who are working for a society with better weather for all.
Does this sound silly? It should.
Here refute my photoshop.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I am totally in favour of overthrowing civilization and impossible equality.
The 100 million figure is obvs. ridiculous, but, hey, that's not even 2% of the world's population. If it were, say, the richest 2% of human beings on the planet, I'm not sure I'd miss them. ;)1

(J/K. Obvs. the apparatus capable of carrying out that sort of mass murder of rich assholes would be incompatible with a just society. Alas, priorities.)

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

As others have said above, if you read the term 'cultural marxism' in there, you can pretty much stop reading. That whole term was basically a scare word that the John Birch Society came up with to slander any organization they didn't feel was sufficiently 'American' enough.


......That is pretty awesome graphic, however.

[Teacher]

http://lh5.ggpht.com/-aYV4QJDtPFU/Tk2DO_e8fbI/AAAAAAAABek/owPXHTsO5cg/HarvestTime%25255B8%25255D.png?imgmax=800

Disturbed Soviet family gruesomely posing in front of the thousands of wheat corpses they slaughtered that morning.

[Popular Front of Judea]

Google 'site:revleft.com 100 million communism'

[TooManyQuestions]

People like that believe that some deaths are worse than others. You will see the double standard everywhere. American politicians cry the blues about the Iraqis that Saddam killed, never once mentioning the million Iranians killed with US chemical weapons or the vast numbers of people we liberated to death in Iraq.

[Luisrah]

It seems very little when you consider 10,000,000 people die a year under capitlaism

Those 10 million are actually just victims of hunger. 2 millions more die of diarrhea (which could easily be treated), for example. There are still plenty of other easily curable diseases...

[Tim Cornelis]

In fact, I saw some statistics that show 10 million Indians die annually for of malnourishment, only 800,000 of natural causes (floodings, etc.). In other words, they die as it is not profitable to supply them with sufficient food to even survive.


http://lh5.ggpht.com/-aYV4QJDtPFU/Tk2DO_e8fbI/AAAAAAAABek/owPXHTsO5cg/HarvestTime%25255B8%25255D.png?imgmax=800

Disturbed Soviet family gruesomely posing in front of the thousands of wheat corpses they slaughtered that morning.



Because as we all know, "Communists" magically and artificially cause famines to happen, instead of natural weather conditions and such, right? I mean, It's just like a giant game of Simcity where you have a bunch of buttons labeled "Famine" , "Tornado", "Monster", "Earthquake", Etc.?

Personally I would have just spammed the "Monster" button. More interesting that way.

I really hope you two don't pride yourself on the "scientific" aspect of scientific socialism, because this is just embarrassingly stupid. I could make similar unreasonable arguments to deflect any mass murder, from the man-made 1943 famine of West Bengal ("oh I suppose Churchill clicked the famine button like in Sim City!" -- or showing well off Indians and saying no one dies of starvation today) to showing one well off Jew in Germany and proclaiming "the Holocaust didn't happen!". It doesn't work that way, get a clue.

[Hegemonicretribution]

The most effective angles have all been covered it seems. I think the first response actually summed it up though.

You might consider the cost of life in terms of industrialised Russia vs third world 19th century Russia instead of vs capitalism. Then again, this would likely open a can of worms.

Most responses will pretty much include the following:

1) Stalinism (and the others) were bad, but not as bad as has been made out.
2) These nations were never close to communism, and did not claim to be.
3) Other political models, including today's, are pretty bad too.

It really is an uninspired (albeit very cool) piece of artwork.

[helot]

100 million hasn't got anything on the ~1billion people malnourished.

[Rurkel]

the man-made 1943 famine of West Bengal ("oh I suppose Churchill clicked the famine button like in Sim City!"
I find Churchill and West Bengal (as well as previous famines in India) to be fairly good "capitalistic" equivalents to the Ukrainian famine. Neither were deliberate acts of genocide, but that doesn't mean that respective governments don't carry a large share of guilt for it.

[Per Levy]

100 million hasn't got anything on the ~1billion people malnourished.

i dont like this kind of arguemnt tbh, first of all it sounds very defensive and apologetic and secondly it makes communism look like, at best, a lesser evil.

[smallangryrabbit]

Oh man, there are thousands of "artworks" like that floating around on deviantart, that is where it was originally posted by a Nazi, obviously. You can`t even ban them off the site unless they openly say they want to kill or eradicate groups of people, whereas that tricky bastard easily evaded that rule by replacing "jews"(etc) with "them", and posing around in SS uniforms on some comic-con. I hate deviantart, it`s a ridiculous site.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

I was browsing through DeviantArt and I stumbled across this:

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/204/c/0/communism_kills_by_dashinvaine-d6et3wa.jpg

Link: http://dashinvaine.deviantart.com/art/Communism-Kills-387669754

Any response or refutations to this picture and also the comments (especially dashinvaine the creator of the picture) below as well?

Shit that would be a good avatar actually, looks fabulous.

[ВАЛТЕР]

No sense in discussing anything with the person. I usually just troll them by telling them that our only mistake was that we didn't kill enough. ;)1

[Comrade Jacob]

I could go on to give them piles of reasoning that goes against it, but these people just aren't worth me repeating myself.

[Le Communiste]

Ever heard of "Le Livre Noir du Capitialisme"? (The Black book of capitalism)
Link (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Livre_Noir_du_Capitalisme)
Harvard press refused to publish it

[Le Communiste]

I really hope you two don't pride yourself on the "scientific" aspect of scientific socialism, because this is just embarrassingly stupid. I could make similar unreasonable arguments to deflect any mass murder, from the man-made 1943 famine of West Bengal ("oh I suppose Churchill clicked the famine button like in Sim City!" -- or showing well off Indians and saying no one dies of starvation today) to showing one well off Jew in Germany and proclaiming "the Holocaust didn't happen!". It doesn't work that way, get a clue.

This post makes little sense, I have reread it 6 times, and i still don't see the point of this post.

[Hexen]

Well let's get to the comments now which this is the most troubling:


~Xlavok (http://xlavok.deviantart.com/) 4 days ago (http://comments.deviantart.com/1/387669754/3145193390)
Actually Capitalism has killed more and Communism never existed.


Reply (http://comments.deviantart.com/1/387669754/3145193390#reply) http://a.deviantart.net/avatars/d/a/dashinvaine.gif?6 (http://dashinvaine.deviantart.com/) *dashinvaine (http://dashinvaine.deviantart.com/) 4 days ago (http://comments.deviantart.com/1/387669754/3145204672)
'Communism was never achieved' is a phrase used by people under the delusion that it ever could be achieved. That eventually a 'Utiopian' society could be created that justified all the cruelty and destruction along the way. The only alternative to Communism is not Capitalism, but leaving that aside... Did the founders of capitalism speak of the need for 'revolutionary terror'? Marx said:

'There is only one means to shorten, simplify and concentrate the murderous death throes of the old society and the bloody birth pangs of the new, only one means – revolutionary terrorism'.


Marxism is terrorism.Well I think you can read and refute the rest of the comments in these links. Of course what's the most disturbing part most people seem to buy into this misinformation and including adding their own liberal arguments which shows how indoctrinated (or happen to be hardcore liberals themselves) most people are. Perhaps the worst part in some of the comments they even plan on spreading this picture around in communities as well.

Page 1: http://dashinvaine.deviantart.com/art/Communism-Kills-387669754?offset=0#comments

Page 2: http://dashinvaine.deviantart.com/art/Communism-Kills-387669754?offset=25#comments

Page 3: http://dashinvaine.deviantart.com/art/Communism-Kills-387669754?offset=50#comments

Page 4: http://dashinvaine.deviantart.com/art/Communism-Kills-387669754?offset=75#comments

Page 5: http://dashinvaine.deviantart.com/art/Communism-Kills-387669754?offset=100#comments

[Q]

Those 10 million are actually just victims of hunger.
And more so: They're just children (the numbers come from UNICEF).

[rednordman]

anti-communism today = similar credibility to that of conspiracy theorists. As in, they actually believe that communist ideals prevail in modern western societies still. I kind of feel sorry for them. Because a lot of people will take their words as gospel, but they have no idea exactly how wrong they really are.

[Captain Ahab]

Assuming Hexen is not a concerned troll the comment is fairly easy to refute. First of all the methods used to try to achieve communism varied greatly. You can't lump Anarchist Catalonia or the Makhnovtchina with the People's Republics. Two, capitalism caused much suffering when birthed as was painfully seen in the 19th century factories. As for the revolutionary terror bit I do hope the Cappie realizes that Robespierre was a major advocate for it and that the Marx quote needs to be looked at in context in regards to the French Revolution. There's also this quote by this good mate.
"Terror consists mostly of useless cruelties perpetrated by frightened people in order to reassure themselves."- Engels

Kautsky was also another Marxist critical of terror.
As for the rest of the comments judging by the one where he tries to equate Nazism with socialism it's clear that they're not worth reading.

[Hexen]

Assuming Hexen is not a concerned troll

Which of course you guessed correctly that I'm not a concerned troll, the reason I post these is because I don't want to be swayed into their position which they first sound "logical" because at times when I argue with people like that, it comes to a point that they say something that I can't reply back to which I take the posts here to basically get 'help' sort of and also when I think of their arguments they sound rather "convincing" at times which is why they sound so troubling.

Then again I maybe wasting my time but at the same time though I maybe indirectly adding up the Highschool Commie's Guide (http://www.revleft.com/vb/high-school-commie-t22370/index.html) to educate other people just incase if they run into these arguments as well.

[smallangryrabbit]

No sense in discussing anything with the person. I usually just troll them by telling them that our only mistake was that we didn't kill enough. ;)1
I`ll quote that if it`s okay with you! I was up for a deviantart flame war anyway.:grin: