New symbols for socialism.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

So, here's the thing:

I rather like the old-school symbols of socialism. The raised fist, the star, the sickle and hammer are all classics.

But one major problem is that in the U.S., that stuff just doesn't fly over here. People in this country see the sickle and hammer and run in terror. We've been so conditioned by our rulers that anything that even remotely resemble the ol' slash n' bash generates nightmarish scenarios that would make the makers of Red Dawn shit their britches.

So then, why don't we try and create some new symbols? Something that speaks to the people. Something that relates to the current state of the working class. Something that doesn't inspire images of gulags and purges.

(And I'm not talking about that 'language of smiles' bullshit that those hipster arsebites put on youtube.)

Any ideas?

[Rafiq]

The red star. And we will make it "fly".

[Sam_b]

Why are symbols important or necessary? It's not some sort of club.

[MarxSchmarx]

Why are symbols important or necessary? It's not some sort of club.

If they are so irrelevant, why do you suppose the other side makes such liberal use of them?

FYI OP: The japanese communist party recently released some new characters ("symbols") for their website (see attached)

[Rafiq]

Why are symbols important or necessary? It's not some sort of club.

Not only that, but the movement from which symbols would be attributed to has yet to exist. However I hold that for Marxists, our symbol will always be the red star, and anarchists the black flag.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The symbols are, as Sam b says, irrelevant - or rather he'd be more accurate in saying they should be. Symbolism is important because people like to pigeon-hole, especially with politics, mass movements, protest movements etc. They like to know which side stands for which, and symbols make it easy - you have a black flag, you're an anarchist, a hammer and sickle and you're a Communist, now we can say you're under the same banner as Stalin, Trotsky, Lenin, Mao, DPRK et al.

[MarxSchmarx]

The symbols are, as Sam b says, irrelevant - or rather he'd be more accurate in saying they should be. Symbolism is important because people like to pigeon-hole, especially with politics, mass movements, protest movements etc. They like to know which side stands for which, and symbols make it easy - you have a black flag, you're an anarchist, a hammer and sickle and you're a Communist, now we can say you're under the same banner as Stalin, Trotsky, Lenin, Mao, DPRK et al.

Well I'd contend it's a bit more than this. Just ask these guys:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2c/Christian_cross_trans.svg

[Blake's Baby]

Have you read this thread: http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-havent-people-t170780/index.html?t=170780 ?

[MarxSchmarx]

Have you read this thread: http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-havent-people-t170780/index.html?t=170780 ?

Those who do not know their history...

[bcbm]

yeah if we just rebrand maybe more people will buy our product

[Igor]

ive always thought the whole idea of "hey what if we dont change the package at all but give it a new name/logo maybe then they will understand the glory of communism PROLETOCRACY" kinda underestimates people

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

the whole flaw in this symbolism debate (And I think bcbm encapsulates this nicely) is that we are not here to 'sell' our idea (product) to people. Revolution isn't a political game where we use big words like Socialism, and proletariat, and wave red flags, and hail old figures in the name of communism, all the while seeking political power. It's about the working class seizing power - all this shit about branding, and symbols make me suspicious that said people are either naive nostalgics, or power-hungry careerists.

[Rafiq]

Symbols can still have significance among us leftists though. They're not important as far as strategy goes but they're decent means of identification.

[Sam_b]

Just ask these guys:

Why should the left be copying symbolism just because our political opponents are doing so?

[Comrade Samuel]

Why should the left be copying symbolism just because our political opponents are doing so?

I hardly think Christians are our political opponents, at least not all of them.

[BIXX]

I hardly think Christians are our political opponents, at least not all of them.

Primarily they are. Especially if we strive to eventually achieve a society without hierarchies.

[BIXX]

(And I'm not talking about that 'language of smiles' bullshit that those hipster arsebites put on youtube.)

Any ideas?

Check out the one I just found:9192

:laugh:

[Tim Cornelis]

Check out the one I just found:9192

:laugh:

I was just about to post that but then was logged out, anyway...

Symbols are an aspect of an entire movement adopting a counter-culture of socialist politics. Regarding the Landless Workers' movement:


A recent article (Wolford, 2003b) argues that the MST capacity to maintain high
levels of participation is due to its ability to create an “imagined community” organized
around ideas, practices, symbols, slogans and rituals; and, more importantly, to its ability
to remain an effective mediator between the state and settlers. Although these factors lead
to high levels of participation within the MST, I argue that this participation also derives
from the maintenance of an organizational structure that encourages participation and
creates not only an “imagined community” but real concrete “autonomous rural
communities”, which are easier to mobilize than the membership of other organizations.

All along, MST membership also
acquires a sense of ‘imagined community’ constantly reinforced by cultural practices and
symbols, referred to as “mística” which helps to maintain the movement’s cohesion and
activism. The movement, throughout the different moments and actions, builds its ideology
by encouraging certain values, such as humility, honesty, conviction, perseverance,
sacrifice, gratitude, responsibility and discipline, and by discouraging others
THE EXPERIENCE OF THE LANDLESS WORKERS MOVEMENT AND THE LULA
GOVERNMENT


The MST use its alternative media, rituals and symbols, such as hymns, music, flag, and documents embedded with historical references to the class character of the movement's struggle, to enhance internal cohesion and to project an image of unity, to the outside worlda form of communication in itself

Through the use of symbols such as its flag, the typical red caps and tee-shirts, and certain songs, the landless farm workers who they are

These rituals and symbols in turn are part of the process of public affirmation of their collective identity which gives them 'recognition as a credible political player'.
Understanding Alternative Media

Symbols are part of the whole package.

The Swedish SAC has nice unorthodox symbols.


the whole flaw in this symbolism debate (And I think bcbm encapsulates this nicely) is that we are not here to 'sell' our idea (product) to people. Revolution isn't a political game where we use big words like Socialism, and proletariat, and wave red flags, and hail old figures in the name of communism, all the while seeking political power. It's about the working class seizing power - all this shit about branding, and symbols make me suspicious that said people are either naive nostalgics, or power-hungry careerists.

Not at all. You simply need to sell your product, make it edible and appealing.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

yeah if we just rebrand maybe more people will buy our product

People were using symbols long before modern capitalism and its obsession with "branding".

[MarxSchmarx]

Why should the left be copying symbolism just because our political opponents are doing so?

We don't copy it from them just because they are doing so. We do it because it works.

Symbols instantly connect people across vast distances and with quite different cultural backgrounds. The boss's comment that people:


like to know which side stands for which, and symbols make it easy cuts both ways. Two people speaking different languages and from different societies, if both have a hammer and sickle tattoo, if they both run into each other say at a bus stop in a third country, that speaks volumes when they meet for the first time.

[Sam_b]

if both have a hammer and sickle tattoo, if they both run into each other say at a bus stop in a third country, that speaks volumes when they meet for the first time.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxYISGTk04TuK44yJyexUIVVL19g2-g6-o92y1r0u0ltlgAcND


We do it because it works

Works in doing what and how?

[MarxSchmarx]

if both have a hammer and sickle tattoo, if they both run into each other say at a bus stop in a third country, that speaks volumes when they meet for the first time. http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxYISGTk04TuK44yJyexUIVVL19g2-g6-o92y1r0u0ltlgAcND

Hmm. Yes, but as in all things in life, there are wolves in sheeps clothing. There is also this deceptively socialist looking coat of arms of a capitalist state:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Emblem_of_Italy.svg/200px-Emblem_of_Italy.svg.png



We do it because it works Works in doing what and how?

Branding. It helps create trust (the occasional exception you alude to aside), shared sense of purpose, etc... concisely and instantly. If you can bolster with ongoing success, you have something in which you can raise the esteem.


How does it work? I'm not a psychologist, I have no definitive answer. If I had to hazard a guess, people appreciate the convenience a symbol provides, and symbols encapsulate nicely a lot of tl;dr verbiage.

[bcbm]

People were using symbols long before modern capitalism and its obsession with "branding".

you dont say

[Rafiq]

The point though, is that the (attempted) means in which symbols are being utilized here is similiar to branding. Symbols aren't used because they're appealing. They don't come into existence to attract people like a brand does. They hold substance, actual historical meaning, in the heat of real events. A flag draped in the blood of the proletariat is a real symbol of communism, it represents real struggle, not cheap, out of the ass near hedonistic language of smiles garbage.

[Sam_b]

Hmm. Yes, but as in all things in life, there are wolves in sheeps clothing

Aha, so "it works" but on a number of occasions it actually doesn't. This is really sound logic.


There is also this deceptively socialist looking coat of arms of a capitalist state:

A white star which has been understood as the symbol of Italy since the seventeenth century is 'deceptive'?

Those who don't know their history right.


Branding

Give me fucking strength.


It helps create trust (the occasional exception you alude to aside)

If you trust someone because they're wearing a red star badge on their jacket you must be pretty trustful of everything and anything.


If you can bolster with ongoing success, you have something in which you can raise the esteem.

Of who? Sad acts that walk about sporting hammer and sickle tattoos? See, where I am (and for anyone questioning where I am, I'm in the real world, you know that one that isn't full of morons in Che Guevara tshirts looking to trust someone because they have an Order of Lenin badge they found on eBay) people get their esteem built by actually creating and winning campaigns. Whatever iconography they have is pretty irrelevant to them. I'm not going to band together with someone because they have some sort of emblem which you believe should be some sort of absurd political branding.


How does it work? I'm not a psychologist, I have no definitive answer

Colour me surprised.


people appreciate the convenience a symbol provides, and symbols encapsulate nicely a lot of tl;dr verbiage.

So we're looking for shortcuts now, right?

If this is the logic of the left we're fucked.

[MarxSchmarx]

Sam_b:

I respectfully disagree.



Hmm. Yes, but as in all things in life, there are wolves in sheeps clothing Aha, so "it works" but on a number of occasions it actually doesn't. This is really sound logic.


Admittedly I see the world as probabilistic/stochastic rather than in terms of Newtwonian determinism. Best I gather no serious person sees "iron laws" anymore where there are no exceptions, ever.



There is also this deceptively socialist looking coat of arms of a capitalist state: A white star which has been understood as the symbol of Italy since the seventeenth century is 'deceptive'?

Those who don't know their history right.

As best I gather they didn't have gears in the 17th century symbolism in Italy. But anyway, historical accidents are found in the case also of the oxymoron of a hammer and sickle surrounded by a nazi background.



Branding.Give me fucking strength.


You mean like to the tune of billions spent in advertising by the capitalists?




It helps create trust (the occasional exception you alude to aside) If you trust someone because they're wearing a red star badge on their jacket you must be pretty trustful of everything and anything.


I tend to think people mean well unless proven othewise, yes. Personally I don't see that as a bad thing.




If you can bolster with ongoing success, you have something in which you can raise the esteem. Of who? Sad acts that walk about sporting hammer and sickle tattoos? See, where I am (and for anyone questioning where I am, I'm in the real world, you know that one that isn't full of morons in Che Guevara tshirts looking to trust someone because they have an Order of Lenin badge they found on eBay) people get their esteem built by actually creating and winning campaigns. Whatever iconography they have is pretty irrelevant to them. I'm not going to band together with someone because they have some sort of emblem which you believe should be some sort of absurd political branding.




In my experience on campaigns, symbols go a long way towards establish credibility. When I worked door-to-door on to get votes to join unions, the very fact that I wore a t-shirt from such and such a union carried credibility and people were willing to listen when I ringed their door bell. I'd be hard pressed to call it "irrelevant iconography", even people who didn't really agree with what we were doing respected us in a way they wouldn't have if I showed up in something more neutral like a generic suit and tie. But perhaps the milieu in which we work is different, I don't know.

Anyway, what you raise isn't an argument against using symbols, at best it's an argument against using specific symbols in other contexts.






people appreciate the convenience a symbol provides, and symbols encapsulate nicely a lot of tl;dr verbiage.So we're looking for shortcuts now, right?

If this is the logic of the left we're fucked.

A. I honestly can't imagine the left being much more "fucked" than it currently is, with its tactics revolving around making people read numbers after dreary numbers and huge walls of century+ old texts.

B. If this approach were so disastrous, I would be hard pressed to explain the last several decades of capitalist hegemony.

[Sam_b]

Yeah, that doesn't really warrant any serious response so it isn't getting one.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

A couch and tail (any sort of trail), crosses and surrounded by a wreath of hashtags.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

http://fotw.fivestarflags.com/images/f/fic-fdce.gif

http://www.republicanjedi.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/obama_o_resized1.jpg

[MarxSchmarx]

By the way, in all seriousness.

I think we should revive old symbols and embrace them for how we think the direction of the left should go. Things that used to unite rather than divide the left. The circle A is a division. ditto with the hammer and sickle. All they say are that we are different from other leftists we believe in this or that sect.

I think the left can, right now, use some very common symbols. The plain red flag, that is something all leftist heritages have in common. Maybe the internationale falls under this category. Potentially so too does the raised clenched fist.

Maybe there are a few other more contemporary symbols like that famous goya painting of the guy in front of the firing squad or some such. But these things, that remind us all of what we have in common despite our divisiveness, I think are another reason we should embrace the symbolism of the movement.

But rallying cries are useful, and they emphasize our commonalities rather than our divisions.

[Art Vandelay]

you dont say

I barely read a quarter of this thread, but I'm announcing this the best post regardless.

[Bostana]

Is symbolism necessary to begin with?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

is symbolism necessary to begin with?

Primitivist!