Anarchists- what about the waste desposial?

[Mclaren]

Thats my piont. What about the waste desposial?

[Moskitto]

We are not all anarchists, so don't go saying i'm an anarchist near any policemen again.

[Moskitto]

Oh for those of you who don't know, this is my friend from school.

[Mclaren]

I'm sorry for talking about MY MIND mosskito

[CommieBastard]

What about waste disposal?

[libereco]

whats the question?

[Moskitto]

I think the question is, What happens if there is no government to waste disposel?

The question is, does waste magicly make itself dispose? If not then who takes it away and who organizes taking it away.

[CommieBastard]

Anarchy is not a doctrine set against organisation, it is a doctrine set against authority where it has not been fully consented to.
i really am beggining to despair at the amount of ignorance in the world as to what anarchy is.. as a word it's been used to mean chaos so much by it's enemies that all people see is that use of it...

[Kez]

Well if there is organisation, then surely that is like an action of a sort of government, even if the name isnt a government.

comrade kamo

[CommieBastard]

so? what's your point?

[libereco]

Quote: from CommieBastard on 6:28 pm on Dec. 16, 2001
Anarchy is not a doctrine set against organisation, it is a doctrine set against authority where it has not been fully consented to.
i really am beggining to despair at the amount of ignorance in the world as to what anarchy is.. as a word it's been used to mean chaos so much by it's enemies that all people see is that use of it...


i recon.

[Kez]

Anarchy is screwed, is there even a set doctorie, or is it DIY job?
its crap and it wont work

comrade kamo

[libereco]

there is no set doctrine because it is not a static system...

[MJM]

I agree it won't work now, but after a communist society has been fully developed the next step could be to anarchism and with it total freedom.
With a society that produces all it's needs by means of automation anarchy could exist. Right now however I doubt it can.

[rebel with a cause]

Anarchy doesn't mean no rules, anarchy means no rulers. I believe in the utopian society of anarchy, but I also realize that it is not possible when you have selfish, indifferent, and ignorant people in society.

To understand what anarchy is you must first know what it is NOT.

[Valkyrie]

You can say anarchy is against a power-holding CENTRALIZED government, Presidents, MP's etc. with veto power.It's power given to the people in a consensus-making direct democracy, the final step of Marxism.

Probably a less bashed, more nuetral term for anarchy would be autonomist Marxism.

To address the waste question: shit would be taken care of as it is now -- by town septic systems.

http://www.infoshop.org




(Edited by Paris at 8:25 am on Dec. 17, 2001)

[Michael]

[quote]Quote: from rebel with a cause on 7:18 am on Dec. 17, 2001
Anarchy doesn't mean no rules, anarchy means no rulers.

If there are no rulers,there are no rules.Anarchism is justice,equality and liberty.It's not utopia.It has to do with the people and their need to be free.

[libereco]

Quote: from Michael on 4:35 am on Dec. 19, 2001
[quote][b]Quote: from rebel with a cause on 7:18 am on Dec. 17, 2001
Anarchy doesn't mean no rules, anarchy means no rulers.

If there are no rulers,there are no rules.Anarchism is justice,equality and liberty.It's not utopia.It has to do with the people and their need to be free.

seems i've misunderstood you in that other thread (the dreamer thing).

[Son of Scargill]

Anarchy?I don't think the populous would be able to take control of their own lives,they've had centuries of being moulded into being sheep,the level of organisation they would be involved in would put most people off.I don't know......,honestly,anarchy has always appealed to me,but most people feel comfortable being led,they need educating to be able to believe in themselves,because we are all capable.Maybe it's just a lack of faith on my part,but I really don't think the worlds ready for it.I have to lean more towards MJM's viewpoint.

[CommieBastard]

I agree the world isnt ready for anarchism, but that doesnt stop me being an anarchist and following my anarchist beleifs...
i.e. i will NEVER attempt to impose authority on another person.

Additionally, i do not think that true communism is achievable in my lifetime, but yet again, i will simply live my life by my principles, and ensure that i treat all people as equals.

And Tavareeshkamo, a proper short definition wpould be:
"Anarchism is the beleif that no authority is valid except for that which is fully consented to"
because of this anarchism is not simply a single doctrine, anarchism includes people from all over the traditional political spectrum, who simply beleive in that above statement. That includes Anarchist-capitalists and all sorts of others...

And Scargill... Anarchy as a doctrine for societal change doesnt simply concentrate on the changing of society, but also essentially on the changing of the people who are part of it. I don't think any anarchist would say the majority of people are ready for anarchism. However, it is an anarchist's job to educate people in order to prepare them for their freedom.

And you can have both rulers and rules in anarchism, it's just that everyone they apply to has to fully consent to them.

[Red Star]

This thread started out about Trash and now is Anarchy ha ha

[CommieBastard]

It started out about how anarchists would deal with trash.
There is no change in topic, as the issue of trash was meant to be a provoker, a prod at an ideology, some smart ass fool who knows nothing about something attempting to criticise that of which he is ignorant.

[Markxs]

che always talked about his 'new man' in cuba. an educated one who would work for the ppl not for himself. when i think about che i think about this new and educated men. when we have the ppl educated then we can have anarchism.

you know what is the problem with communism. that when you first have leaders who rule over somebody the ppl will see the power which others have over them as oprresive. its a natural reaction for ppl to kill opression and revolt against it. so we would go back to capitalism then.

when you educate your ppl and treat them as equals right away. they wont feel oprressed and will fight and work for the less fortunate!! down with power selfishness= capialism.

only those ppl can live in a free society. its the only option we have for killing capitalism !!

[the REVOLUTION]

it truly is sad that to this day people allow themselves to be controlled in what "things" are. Anarchy has nothing to do with chaos. in almost every case this "government" thing has failed miserably. Anarchy embraces the idea that we do not need a government to survive, we just need to be humans in the great cycle of nature and play our humble parts, and use consensus in deciding our actions, never forgetting the consequences of those actions and respecting all who are affected.

[the REVOLUTION]

it truly is sad that to this day people allow themselves to be controlled in what "things" are. Anarchy has nothing to do with chaos. in almost every case this "government" thing has failed miserably. Anarchy embraces the idea that we do not need a government to survive, we just need to be humans in the great cycle of nature and play our humble parts, and use consensus in deciding our actions, never forgetting the consequences of those actions and respecting all who are affected.

[socialistEUROPEAN]

Before Anarchism we need to be educated.
EDUCATE NOT LEGISLATE

[Mclaren]

My piont is that you would need some kind of orginasation to get ride of sewage. You would need authrity

[Valkyrie]

McClaren, it would go something like this:

The ppl of a town, or an anarchist cooperative community would gather together for a town meeting. The Town Meeting is about waste disposal.

Person 1: We have to decide what to do about waste disposal. What are the options we have?

Person 2: One option could be to bury our waste in our backyards.

Person 3: Another option is to do nothing and let it overflow in our houses.

Person 4: Why don't we use the sewage system already installed, and have the trash disposal truck come and pick up our garbage and bring it to the town dump?

Person 5: Any other ideas?..... OK then Let's vote.

Vote tallied. Consensus made. End of Meeting.

McClaren, I can guarantee that everyone at the meeting voted for the option of Person Number 4.

No one was "in charge" of the meeting. And the waste disposal service and sewage is financed by mutual contributions of the people who live in the community who knowinly need these services.

Do you see a little bit how it might work now?

[Guest]

"Person 4: Why don't we use the sewage system already installed, and have the trash disposal truck come and pick up our garbage and bring it to the town dump?"

1) How did the sewage system get there?
2) Who's driving the trash disposal truck?
3) Who's maintaining the town dump?

[Valkyrie]

"Person 4: Why don't we use the sewage system already installed, and have the trash disposal truck come and pick up our garbage and bring it to the town dump?"

1) How did the sewage system get there?
2) Who's driving the trash disposal truck?
3) Who's maintaining the town dump?

---

Answers:

1) The sewage system is in place right now... isn't it? So, It should still be there.

2) The person driving the truck, is the person who's job is to drive the truck.

3) same answer as number 2.


(Edited by Paris at 8:43 pm on Dec. 20, 2001)

[Guest]

1) Who maintains the sewage system?
2) Who pays the garbage truck driver?
3) Who maintains the town dump?

[Valkyrie]

1) Who maintains the sewage system?
2) Who pays the garbage truck driver?
3) Who maintains the town dump

----

LOL. Guest!!!!

Answers:

1) The persons whose jobs are to maintain the sewage system, would maintain it.

2) the town's people would pay for the garbage service, including truck and pay for the driver.

3) Same answer as number 1

[Guest]

OH! I see now! So the people of the town would pay for things like waste disposal. For the sake of our argument, let's come up with a word for these "donations" from the citizens to the public good. Let's call them..."taxes." So your anarchist system survives on "taxes" (not to mention infrastructure created by a government). That's wonderful, Paris. So then what precisely would distinguish your anarchist system from the one under which we live currently?

[Valkyrie]

But he who has no confidence in the creative capacity of the masses and in their capability to revolt doesn't belong in the revolutionary movement. He should go to a monastery and get on his knees and start praying. Because he is no revolutionist. He is a son of a *****.

Sam Dolgoff

[Guest]

Yeah, that's about what I thought you'd say. Good answer, slugger.

[Valkyrie]

It would be more of a type of voluntary donation -- decided by the people. One would not be forced, the term is called Mutual Aid by anarchists.

The difference between this current system and an anarchy one is that the power of decision is in the hands of the people given by free will and made by consensus.

[Guest]

Oh my Lord.
"The difference between this current system and an anarchy one is that the power of decision is in the hands of the people given by free will and made by consensus."
That IS the current system. Say what you want about national-level American politics, but when it comes to local politics (like trash disposal), decisions are almost entirely in the hands of the people. Everything is decided by referendum. The revolutionary "Town Meeting" idea that you presented is a staple of American local politics. Don't you realize that you're advocating the American federalist system, but making yourself feel better by calling it "anarchy?"

[Valkyrie]

hey Guest,

My quote up there has nothing to do with your "arguement", I was copying and pasting it from while you were writing your brillant refute, but.. if you believe it applies to you.. then by all means get on your knees.

I have plenty of more quotes coming too.

[Valkyrie]

Guest,

The difference being is taxing. taxing is imposed, voluntary donation is not.

[Guest]

Hey guest,
Nice argument.
From other guest

[Guest]

P.S.
Oh yeah, watch out, for those quotes.

[Guest]

"The difference being is taxing. taxing is imposed, voluntary donation is not."

Paris, do you honestly think that such a system is at all feasible?

Let me ask you this...would you go to work everyday if your employer could choose whether or not he was going to pay you...if paycheck distribution was "voluntary?" Why would a garbage man?

[Valkyrie]

"The anarchists' electoral abstentionism implies not only a conception that is opposed to the principle of representation (which is totally rejected by anarchism), it implies above all an absolute lack of confidence in the State. And this distrust, which is instinctive in the working masses, is for the anarchists the result of their historical experience with the State and its function, which has, at all times and in all places, resulted in a selfish and exclusive protection of the ruling classes and their privileges. Anarchist abstentionism strips the State of the constitutional fraud with which it presents itself to the gullible as the true representative of the whole nation, and, in so doing, exposes its essential character as representative, procurer, and protector of the ruling classes."

-- Luigi Galleani, The End of Anarchism?



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"Government cannot exist without the tacit consent of the populace. This consent is maintained by keeping people in ignorance of their real power. Voting is not an expression of power, but an admission of powerlessness, since it cannot do otherwise than reaffirm the governmnet's supposed legitimacy."

-- Fred Woodworth, Anarchism



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"We will continue to put our bodies on the line to show how police resort to violence even when they do not need to," said 17-year-old activist Jesse Wilson, as hundreds of protesters regrouped Tuesday night after being chased through the streets by dozens of police. "They could arrest people peacefully for painting on cop cars, but this is an authoritarian state, so they feel the need to beat us. This is what we want to show the American people."

-- August 1, 2000 / Philadelphia



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"Agricultural technology is built on the assumption that world hunger is caused by a scarcity of food and a lack of technology, and that therefore new technologies are needed to produce more food for the world's growing population. However, hunger is caused not by scarcity, but by free market economic policies that undermine food security and local self-reliance and create a system of institutionalized economic justice. These policies, whose effects are worsened by economic globalization, allocate food not to the needy, but to oligopolistic global markets where one dollar equals one vote. Agro-biotechnology will only exacerbate this situation."

-- Carmelo Ruiz, "Winners and Losers in the Biotechnology Revolution." in Avant Gardening (Autonomedia, 1999)

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"Organisation, far from creating authority, is the only cure for it and the only means whereby each of us will get used to taking an active and conscious part in collective work, and cease being passive instruments in the hands of leaders."
--— Errico Malatesta



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Anarchists are opposed to violence...The main plank of anarchism is the removal of violence from human relations. It is life based on the freedom of the individual, without the intervention of the police. For this reason we are enemies of capitalism, which depends on the protection of the police to force workers to allow themsleves to be exploited...We are therefore enemies of the State, which is the coercive, violent organization of society.


-- Errico Malatesta, Umanita Nova, August, 25, 1921



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Oscar Wilde defines a perfect personality as "one who develops under perfect conditions, who is not wounded, maimed, or in danger." A perfect personality, then, is only possible in a state of society where man is free to choose the mode of work, the conditions of work, and the freedom to work. One to whom the making of a table, the building of a house, or the tilling of the soil, is what the painting is to the artist and the discovery to the scientist -- the result of inspiration, of intense longing, and deep interest in work as a creative force.
-- Emma Goldman, "Anarchism: What It Really Stands For"



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"The destruction of the capitalist media (via raids, detournement, explosions, sabotage, guerilla theatre during bourgeois events, etc.) must be simultaneously accompanied by the development of a counter-culture, a revolutionary bohemia, an anarchist aesthetic. For this we need liberated printing presses, alternative gallery/performance spaces, experimental cafes, anarchist bookstores, the things that allow for an intellectual and radical community to grow. It is becoming increasingly evident that this may be impossible in the American metropolis. Gentrification has consistently destroyed every venture of this sort. The commune, an idea that has scarcely been explored by anti-statists in America since the 1840s, is an idea which must be articulated, developed, and acted on."
-- Drunken Boat Manifesto

"The strongest bulwark of the capitalist system is the ignorance of its victims." -- Adolf Fischer



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"Yesterday's Seattle Times had an article on the delegation of anarchists from Eugene, Oregon, who are being blamed for most of the violence. The Eugenians - playing the always-useful role of outside agitators - published a manifesto denouncing the unions and NGOs protesting the WTO as "part of the glue holding a rotting order together. It's time to create a new world from the ashes after the ruined one. Fight back and don't get caught." And they didn't; almost all the arrestees were doing nothing violent, while the window-smashers seem to have skipped town unhindered. Before leaving, though, the Eugene anarchists amazingly flattened the tires of eight police cars and spray-painted them with the circled A that symbolizes anarchism. Doing that takes amazing nerve; getting away with it is stunning." -- Doug Henwood



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God Bless you Queen Mum
The Sun thinks you're just great
But what we all are waiting for
Is to see you in a crate


God Bless you Queen Mum
Your husband rots in hell
The only thing wrong with that's
you're not there as well.


from CLASS WAR



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"The whole history of progress of human liberty shows that all concessions yet made to her august claims have been born of earnest struggle. If there is no struggle there is no progress.

Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted. . ."
-- Frederick Douglass (1857)

-------------------------------------------------
REmember Earth is not dying, it is being murdered and the people murdering it have names and addresses'
-- British EF!, seen in DiY Culture: Party and Protest in Nineties Britain (Verso)



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"Nearly every assassination for years past has been attributed to Anarchists. It is a wonder they were not charged with the killing of Lincoln, Garfield, Harrison and others. Indeed, President McKinley's death was certainly taxed to Anarchism

"Nevertheless, the assassin of McKinley--Leon Czolgosz--was a Republican who voted at Repiblican primaries (and no doubt was insane).

-- (Jo Labadie, in "Anarchism: genuine and Asinine", 1925, printed by himslef in his shop, Bubbling Waters, Wixom, Michigan)
Quoted in the The Match! no.93 (Winter 1998-99)



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"A society is a healthy society only to the degree that it exhibits anarchistic traits."
- Jens Bjørneboe



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"'I voted against the constitution because it was a constitution!' said the great French political philosopher, Pierre Joseph Proudhon during the French Revolution of 1848 when he was asked why he had been among the tiny minority of the National Assembly voting against proposals for a constitution. His attitude was not based merely on his libertarian view that society should be allowed to develop its institutions empirically and organically, rather than by formal fiat. He also pointed out that in a constitution which divided powers, the tendency would always be for the executive, the most rigid, centralist and power-oriented branch of government, to take control. His point was well taken, and history has given it justification in the centuries since the American states adopted their own pioneer constitution. Louis Napoleon Bonaparte, the president of France elected under the constitution that Proudhon rejected, made himself first a dictator and then an emperor. And with only brief intervals, the president of the United States has represented all that is reactionary and overbearing in American life and in the American attitude towards the world in general. I need hardly expand on the offences against basic human rights that have taken place under the apparently benign constitutions of the Soviet Union in the past, or the People's Republic of China in the present."
- George Woodcock


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"If the Nuremberg laws were applied today, then every Post-War American president would have to be hanged."
- Noam Chomsky


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Gays are not oppressed on a whim, but because of the specific need of capitalism for the nuclear family. The nuclear family, as the primary -- and inexpensive -- provider and carer for the workforce, fulfilled in the nineteenth century and still fulfills an important need for capitalism. Alternative sexualities represent a threat to the family model because they provide an alternative role model for people. Gays are going to be in the front line of attack whenever capitalism wants to reinforce family values.

Louise Tierney, "Looking to the Future"



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... there are reformist strategies that waste the energies of women, that raise expectations of great change, and that are misleading and alienating because they cannot deliver the goods. The best (or worst) example is electoral politics. Some socialists (beguiled by the notion of gradualism) fall for that one. Anarchists know better. You cannot liberate yourself by non-liberatory means; you cannot elect a new set of politicians (no matter how sisterly) to run the same old corrupt institutions -- which in turn run you.

Carol Ehrlich, "Socialism, Anarchism, and Feminism," in Howard J. Ehrlich (ed.), Reinventing Anarchy, Again



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It is not enough for a handful of experts to attempt the solution of a problem, to solve it and then to apply it. The restriction of knowledge to an elite group destroys the spirit of society and leads to its intellectual impoverishment.

Albert Einstein



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It is the belief that power corrupts, and that people become irresponsible in their exercise of it, that forms the basis for much of their [anarchists] criticism of political authority and centralised power. Power must be dispersed they say, not so much because everyone is always good, but because when power is concentrated some people tend to become extremely evil.

John Clark, The Anarchist Moment



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Religious fundamentalists alone are a huge popular grouping in the United States, which resembles pre-industrial societies in that regard. This is a culture in which three-fourths of the population believe in religious miracles, half believe in the devil, 83 percent believe that the Bible is the 'actual' or the inspired word of God, 39 percent believe in the Biblical prediction of Armageddon and 'accept it with a certain fatalism,' a mere 9 percent accept Darwinian evolution while 44 percent believe that 'God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years,' and so on. The 'God and Country rally' that opened the national Republican convention is one remarkable illustration, which aroused no little amazement in conservative circles in Europe."
Noam Chomsky, From: "'Mandate for Change,' or Business as Usual," Z Magazine, February 1993, pp. 32-33



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How does it become a man to behave toward the American government today? I answer, that he cannot without disgrace be associated with it. I cannot for an instant recognize that political organization as my government which is the slave's government also.

Henry David Thoreau



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But he who has no confidence in the creative capacity of the masses and in their capability to revolt doesn't belong in the revolutionary movement. He should go to a monastery and get on his knees and start praying. Because he is no revolutionist. He is a son of a *****.

Sam Dolgoff



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Laws: We know what they are, and what they are worth! They are spider webs for the rich and mighty, steel chains for the poor and weak, fishing nets in the hands of government.

Pierre Joseph Proudhon quoted in The Match!



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While it can certainly be useful to know about the history of the working class, you don't need to have studied Marxist theory to know that being bossed around is degrading.

Dave Coull

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Samuel Johnson's saying that patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels has some truth in it, but not nearly enough. Patriotism, in truth, is the great nursery of scoundrels, and its annual output is probably greater than that of even religion. Its chief glories are the demagogue, the military bully, and the spreaders of libels and false history. Its philosophy rests firmly on the doctrine that the end justifies the means -- that any blow, whether above or below the belt, is fair against dissenters from its wholesale denial of plain facts.

H.L. Mencken; Minority Report




(Edited by Paris at 10:04 pm on Dec. 20, 2001)

[Guest]

so...is that your final answer?

[Valkyrie]

No, I never have a final answer. I dont give up that easy.

And yeah, it is a feasable system, and once people move over to it and believe in their ability to decide for themselves, we will be past wars and exploitation and the destruction of the planet and everything else that is wrong with this current system.

[Guest]

So the long and short of this entire thread is that when anarchists have to deal with garbage disposal, they invent government.

Paris maintains that it will not be government because taxes will be voluntary. Taxes are voluntary now. Just ask your buddy Henry David Thoreau.

[CommieBastard]

there will not be government in the sense that we have it.

Anarchism maintains a principle that any representatives will be both retractable and actually representative of the group they are spokesperson for. Not only this but there will be regular changes of spokeperson.
Also, a majority wanting something would not be enactable if it is against any one person or groups fair interests.
It is not about majority rule, but whole and personal rule, about actual freedom and a lack of imposition.

[Valkyrie]

"Let me ask you this...would you go to work everyday if your employer could choose whether or not he was going to pay you...if paycheck distribution was "voluntary?" Why would a garbage man?"

Guest:
I think because most people would not tolerate crapping in a field or slushing through it on their floors, they would have no problem paying a garbage man or the maintaining of the sewer systems.

Besides, guest, waste disposal is not the whole of anarchist theory.

[Guest]

"Anarchism maintains a principle that any representatives will be both retractable and actually representative of the group they are spokesperson for. Not only this but there will be regular changes of spokeperson."
Anarchistic representatives? This is a new one. And I'm not even going to belabor the fact that you're once again describing the American system.

"Also, a majority wanting something would not be enactable if it is against any one person or groups fair interests."
...IN A CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY!

"I think because most people would not tolerate crapping in a field or slushing through it on their floors, they would have no problem paying a garbage man or the maintaining of the sewer systems."
That wasn't the question, buddy. Here, let me make it easier for you. If you lived in a system where the governmental budget was based on how much each of your fellow citizens thought he or she should pay, would you want to be the garbage man?

"Besides, guest, waste disposal is not the whole of anarchist theory."
Waste disposal is an example of the things that anarchistic "theory" doesn't account for.

[Valkyrie]

Well, you nasty guest, if you have a town with a pop. of 30,000 head of household(as I live in) and if I did the math right, and each household paid the garbage man a lowball $1.00 a week-- The garbage man will be making $30,000 a week, 120.000 a month and one million 400 hundred and 40 dollars a year. More than what I would think they make now. No?





(Edited by Paris at 5:17 am on Dec. 21, 2001)


(Edited by Paris at 5:23 am on Dec. 21, 2001)

[Guest]

Don't forget the garbage men need assistants and need to cover costs, and also that society needs much more than garbage men. People are going to have to "volunteer" more money, and soon you really can't rely that they'll give the suggested donation.

[libereco]

whats your problem?


the garbage man comes to my house (any man actually), and either you pay him directly, and he takes it away.......or you don't and deal with it otherwise.

[Mclaren]

My piont is that to have a system in place that you need order. Peple say I spaming the boread well how come that this is the most look at topic evr!

[Mclaren]

Anarchy needs services and authority. Police, fir helath and schools. It stupid

[Valkyrie]

"Don't forget the garbage men need assistants and need to cover costs, and also that society needs much more than garbage men. People are going to have to "volunteer" more money, and soon you really can't rely that they'll give the suggested donation."


Guest:

Since 1 million+ is an elaborate amount of money for one persons wage in a communistic society, it would be a given that the contribution would be split between the workers. If $1.00 a week per person per population is not enough to cover costs, then raise it to $2.00 a week.

All services; school and health care would be supported in the same way.
in dollars or quarters per cost.

I fully understand that some people in the world are submissive and NEED some type of patriarchic ogliarchy system in place to get them through the day,.... but... people need to take personal responsibility for themselves, the planet, and their fellow human being. Why would that be so impossible?

I urge you to read the Anarchist FAQ.

http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html







(Edited by Paris at 5:40 pm on Dec. 21, 2001)

[CommieBastard]

Plus you have to remember that anarchists have no problem with authority when it is fully consented to.

Also, anarchy is not about a lack of order, but rather a lack of authority.

[Valkyrie]

Right! non-hierarchial authority

[Mclaren]

This topic just keeps on going and its by me Mr Unpopular

[Mclaren]

I Mr Unpopular started it.

[Valkyrie]

Good for you McClaren!! it's a damn good topic. Start another thread if you like on same and I will post anarchist thoery and practice.

[Guest]

which brings us back to another guest's point:

"Anarchism maintains a principle that any representatives will be both retractable and actually representative of the group they are spokesperson for. Not only this but there will be regular changes of spokeperson."
Anarchistic representatives? This is a new one. And I'm not even going to belabor the fact that you're once again describing the American system.

"Also, a majority wanting something would not be enactable if it is against any one person or groups fair interests."
...IN A CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY!

"I think because most people would not tolerate crapping in a field or slushing through it on their floors, they would have no problem paying a garbage man or the maintaining of the sewer systems."
That wasn't the question, buddy. Here, let me make it easier for you. If you lived in a system where the governmental budget was based on how much each of your fellow citizens thought he or she should pay, would you want to be the garbage man?

"Besides, guest, waste disposal is not the whole of anarchist theory."
Waste disposal is an example of the things that anarchistic "theory" doesn't account for.

Which brings us farther back to the assertion that in order for anarchic society to function, government has to be created. You say its voluntary and direct me to read the Anarchist FAQ. I say, acceptance of government is implied by benefit derived, I refer you to John Locke and the Second Treatise of Government.

[Guest]

I would say the most pertinent reading material would be the Federalist Papers.

Fed 10...read it, learn it, live it.

[Mclaren]

So anarchy needs money its better than commuinsm. Money is needed even by anarchists. Money is needed hahaha to all you communits

[Mclaren]

I did not expect this reaction to my topic. I only put it on her to see what I would get. Its run and run and run. Thanks everyone

[Mclaren]

Lets try and add an 8th page and get the viewed up to 600.

[Mclaren]

You need money. Communits are being un relstic aI would leve I am not working for free. I going to leave. Boo. You need money admit it. Its a fact

[peaccenicked]

socialist and anarchist theory depart company at the point where anarchist say we don't need a transitional
workers state. Marxists believe it is a temporary necessary evil. Both agree that money will become unecessary as goods will be held in common in a super rich society where scarcity is not a big problem . Waste
disposal would be largely carried out by robots

[Valkyrie]

Right. They split at that point of the dictator of the proleariat. The anarchist theory is overthrow the state first then capitalism will fall; Marxist theory is overthrow capitalism first and then the state will fall.

Why a lot of Marxists are overlooking that final stage of his dialetic is a strange anomoly to me.

[Guest]

Yeah...but who's going to pick up the trash when the state falls?

[peaccenicked]

For Marxists overthrowing capitalism means smashing
the capitalist state machine. The working class need their own state machine to oppress capitalism. As society becomes more developed there will be no need for a state machine and it will wither away.
Unfortunately we have largely only experienced
undemocratic dictatorships in very poor countries and we have largely witnessed the oppression of anarchists
and reactionary dissidents. A strong democracy is essential for society to develop. The problem then is for
a democratic dictatorship to be about abolitioning its own existence. Let us get on with the tough business
of smashing imperialism and hope we can solve these more far away problems in the process

[Guest]

"capitalist state machine," explain that please.

[Guest]

You know...in capitalist systems the state has total control over everything. It's the whaddayacallit...centrally controlled economy. Oh, no wait, that's COMMUNISM. My fault. Capitalism means that relative absence of a state machine. So hard to keep track of these things...

[Mclaren]

KEEP IT GOING PEOPLE!!!!

[peaccenicked]

The Capitalist state machine as defined by Marxists
is the instrument by which the ruling class oppress
the working class. By this they generally mean the police, the army and the lying media machine which does this all in the name of democracy.
Let make no mistake Bush and Blair want to create one
party states, and a state of perprtual war suits their purposes.

[Mclaren]

You need basic services and shouden't they getpaid the most because they keep soiciety running. Thay are the base if they go then so does everhting else and its anarhy

[Moskitto]

I can't personally see how any form of anarchism (mainly Anarcho-Capitalism) could work, because Anarcho-Capitalism relies on voluntary donations by individuals where there are no gaurantees that they would exist.

And Anarcho-Communism I don't know that much about so I can't really comment.

[libereco]

most anarchists don't consider anarcho-capitalists anarchists at all anyway.

i think people here should read up a little on the subject first. Because obviously many don't have a clue.

Before we discuss Communism and Capitalism we also have some basic knowledge about it. Otherwise you have to explain every smallest tidbit, and honstly, i don't feel like doing that.

[Michael]

Quote: from Moskitto on 1:27 pm on Dec. 22, 2001
I can't personally see how any form of anarchism (mainly Anarcho-Capitalism) could work, because Anarcho-Capitalism relies on voluntary donations by individuals where there are no gaurantees that they would exist.

[Michael]

Define anarcho-capitalism Moskitto,it's a new thing to me.
Just try not to confuse things up

"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, and socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality."

[Mclaren]

Keep going people. It can't work they don't plan it through they just do n't like autority or idispline ttas there probelm

[Mclaren]

Anarchie protest in london in the may day portest just wasted police time andmoney theywon't get chnage unless they use the ballet box and get mps in. Use the ballet box not wasting police time.

[libereco]

Quote: from Mclaren on 3:38 pm on Dec. 22, 2001
Keep going people. It can't work they don't plan it through they just do n't like autority or idispline ttas there probelm


could you EVER fucking back up your statements?
and it's okay if you don't know english grammar well or something, but at least spell check your posts for spelling errors, because it's hard to understand them like this!


Anarchie protest in london in the may day portest just wasted police time andmoney theywon't get chnage unless they use the ballet box and get mps in. Use the ballet box not wasting police time.

1. Protests are a perfectly legal action, it's a right every citizen posseses and should use to get heard.
2. not all anarchists are vandals.
3. not everybodys political beliefs are portrayed in the spectrum of parties. I agree though that, if you can't decide on who to vote, you should still go to the voting booth and make your make your vote for "nobody" count at least. to make a point.

and mclaren, just because you started an interesting topic, and you keep it running by asking the same questions and making the same statements over and over, doesn't mean that you are a better person, nor that your penis grew bigger.

[peaccenicked]

I have come to the conclusion that Mclaren is not an American. He is simply a reactionary. Someone who is afraid to express progressive views. He may have problems with intellectual honesty and might only listen to the sound of his voice. Let those of us who have patience respond, those who have deter themselves from getting too annoyed, perhaps some of our truths
and ways may help him out as he seems to be in the need of progressive intelligent company.
of course we need basic services. No one is saying people should not be paid only that socialism distributes wealth differently.

[Moskitto]

The power of a no vote is immense.

in 97 if all the people who put blank ballots had voted for labour then we could have replaced the conservative candidate.

[libereco]

what if those people didn't want labour either?

for example in the US.

at thr last votes, i would have probably voted for the green party.
but if it weren't for them probably for noone, for there is no party that shares my views even the slightest.

[Moskitto]

True.

But it scared him because he didn't stand for election again, But the conservatives still won.

[Mclaren]

waht this has noting to do with penies

[Moskitto]

penies?

[Mclaren]

Liberto or whatever was saying that I was trting to make my penis bigger. What are we argoung about know

[Valkyrie]

Mclaren, Liberto is saying that the size of this post is making you're head as big as you want your penis to be.

True - anarchists do not recognize "anarcho-capitalism." It's an oxymoron; as capitalism is a power-holding exploitive authority, and anarchists are against any type of possesion of power whatsoever.

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys:
Power, like a desoluting pestilence,
Pollutes whatever it touches, and obedience.
Bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth,
Makes slaves of men, and of the human frame,
A mechanized automatom.

~ Percy Bysshe Shelley (YES!!! an Anarchist!!)

[Guest]

You see the fact that romantic poets like Shelley, and trancendentalist, like Thoreau, speak in favor of anarchy is indicative of Anarchy's lack of feasability.

[Valkyrie]

How so, guest?

[Guest]

I suppose the very nature of the "romantic" and "trancendalist" movements are revealed bytheir very names, would be a big hint as to why they would immediately be impertinent to political reality. But I suppose you got all your quotes from MS bookshelf or some website, as oppossed to actually reading the quotes in context.

[Valkyrie]

Yeah, and Ronald Reagan was just a fucking actor; and a bad one at that.

(Edited by Paris at 3:29 am on Dec. 23, 2001)

[Guest]

yeah he was a bad actor, so what, who here is supporting reagan. At least make applicable replies.

[vox]

Why guest!

You've been busy, haven't you? Good for you.

I've been gone for a bit, and I've not read this entire thread, but when you post something like what follows, I just have to respond.

See, you posted this:

"You know...in capitalist systems the state has total control over everything. It's the whaddayacallit...centrally controlled economy. Oh, no wait, that's COMMUNISM. My fault. Capitalism means that relative absence of a state machine. So hard to keep track of these things..."

I'm not sure just what you mean by communism, but it's sure not what Marx meant.

We do, however, need to look at just what the State's role is in a capitalist economy, right?

Well then there now, we do see an awful lot of corporate welfare, don't we? I can give you facts and figures if you need them. In fact, since you've said that you read through some of the older posts I've made, you may have seen some. Fact is, and, if you keep current on tax law (and I'm sure you do), you know that there is an awful lot of corporate welfare out there.

So where does that leave us?

It leaves us in a place where the "central," that is, Federal, government, disposes of workers' taxes by giving them to corporations, for corporations play a large role in US political economy. Surely you won't argue that, correct?

When we get down to a state level it's even more obvious, for states compete with each other in a rather bizarre race to the bottom, and further, municipalities do the same!

Nowhere, though, is the worker represented, except as a consumer. In the upside-down world of capitalist relations, the worker is disdained and the consumer is loved. Just another philosphical contradiction of capitalism.

Tighten up your arguments please, guest.

vox

(Edited by vox at 12:03 am on Dec. 23, 2001)

[Guest]

hey vox,

different guests...more over, i think what the other guest was trying to point out was that centrally controlled economies are the anti-thesis of capitalism, and tell me vox. If the government, in situations of dire economic emergency, didn't "bail out" corporations, then were would people work?

[MJM]

The old we should be thankful for our jobs argument LOL.

[Valkyrie]

I suppose the very nature of the "romantic" and "trancendalist" movements are revealed bytheir very names, would be a big hint as to why they would immediately be impertinent to political reality.
-----

Guest 205:

Come on!!!! Really? You can't see the analogy of my citing Reagan as an actor, and you citing Shelley & Thoreau and saying THEY'RE not pertinent to political reality?

[vox]

Dearest guest,

Do not take me for a fool, please. Do you see that number beneath "guest?" That's your IP address. Now, of course, maybe your masking it, or maybe you're running XP with raw socket access. Regardless, notice how the first two numbers are the same? Either you're at Columbia or you're routing through it. Doesn't matter, really, I don't think it's two different "guests." Don't be so coy. This is just all the more reason to register, right? Why hide, after all? Anyway, 160.39.181.55 is at dyn-greek-181-55.dyn.columbia.edu
and 160.39.180.205 is at dyn-greek-180-205.dyn.columbia.edu. So, you're a college kid (Agusto?) or you're using Columbia's server. I don't really care, but I do think you're the same "guest."

Okay?

Now, on to your post.

It's amusing that you say that centrally controlled economies are the antithesis of capitalism, but then, in the next breath, state that capitalism creates situations in which corporations need to be "bailed out." Hee! That, my friend, is a powerful argument for a powerful, centralized state economy, one that services the needs of the few rich and disregards the needs of the many exploited.

Hey, didn't you try this turn-around trick with me? Yeah, you did. The difference is that you state, on your own, my argument, where I did not state yours, but rather you had to evade what I said. Funny how that works.

vox

[Valkyrie]

You're right Vox. It's the same guest logging in on a different comp. That lame old trick. And I thought they we're being set out in pairs of two!!!

Colombia U. explains his reference defending the "other guest" on how he could be a leader of an anarcho-commune in Upstate NY. ha ha ha ha!!!! What an expensivly wasted education guest!

[RedCeltic]

Columbia U would link him to Agusto

[Anonymous]

since whoever started this thread is ignorante of what anarchism is ill give you some pointers so you wont make a fool out of your self by displaying your ignorance. Anarchism is above all a school of thought that has existed for many centuries much like socialism and comunism have diferent interpretations so too in anarchism there are diferent conceptions on how a society should be and the ways to get there. I have anarchist tendancies becoz i think that power should justify its self constantly, democracy belongs in the anarchist field becoz it brings the power to everyone. But democracy is a process and i am by no means happy with the mediocre (at the very best) one i have, i want MORE democracy and the more democracy i want the more anarchist i am. I want goverments to justify themselves and not act all mighty. The practical aplications of aranchist beliefs have alot of viability and are a driving force for change in any society and one of the key things you could wish to have in order to prevent tirany,despotism,exploitation and dictatorship is a large percentage of anarchists in you contry. Power is by nature abusive so i think the most logical thing in the world is to try and limit it to the very essecial froms.

[vox]

RedCeltic, that's right. And didn't "guest" make a reference to Sallow? Agusto talked of the Sallow-Swan model, as I recall.

*sigh*

Sometimes being right is tedious.

vox

[koba]

humm well look at that ..... he's not replying .... maybe he hurried off to hide when he figured we found out his little trick.

lol people sometimes ....

[RedCeltic]

Yes he did... I didn't pick up on it before you mentioned Agusto but reading over his posts and going back on Agustos the wording is very much the same. I can't check ISP #'s as you... but Agusto first started posting around Sept 27th and in the thread where he clearly went from guest posting to "Agusto" his ISP was 160.39.180.238

[Valkyrie]

I wonder how someone who claims to have been brought up by a Sandinista turn out to be so......... Capitalist. His people must hang their head in shame.

[Mclaren]

It's a record. Thank you evryone. You can stop arguing now!

[Guest]

yup cause there is only one capitalist in all of columbia U. Great sleuthing fellows!?! I don't know if you guys noticed, there are different guests all over this forum, many of them believers in freedom. Trust me, there is not simply one capitalist running around this board. Last time I checked, you guys were simply grossly outnumbered the world over.

[RedCeltic]

What I find hilarious is how people can come out and say that they don’t believe in socialism yet support social security. The conservatives opposed social security when it was implemented, yet today find themselves in support of it because the elderly, who make up the strongest voting block many times will vote solely on what a politician will do about social security.

Social security is a socialist idea and one of the ten points in the Communist Manifesto. It was first implemented by Bismarck… and 100 years later by F.D.R.

Today, many democrats believe in implementing Socialized Medicine another socialist idea.

In this you see that Karl Marx has even influenced the United States through Socialist reforms. The programs of the “New Deal” where taken from the platform of Norman Thomas who believed in “evolutionary socialism”… and Rev. DR. Martin Luther King Jr. had even said, “ We must rapidly begin a shift from a Thing orientated society to a People orientated society.”


(Edited by RedCeltic at 10:46 am on Dec. 23, 2001)

[vox]

Dear guest,

Hey, maybe it was a different poster. Perhaps Agusto told some of his school chums about this place, people he knows from some economic class he took, and they will now all come here parroting the prof's lectures. It could be, but I'm hesitant to think so.

Regardless, I noticed that you didn't answer the point about capitalism needing a strong, centralized gov't in order to be preserved, for the contradictions inherent in capitalist social relations would cause the system to fail fairly quickly without gov't intervention. That, dear guest, is an Agusto trademark. He used to bring up topics and, when unable to answer the counterpoint, he would try to change the topic. It's a tired ploy.

I don't care who you are, really. If you have something to say, say it and stick by it.

vox

[Guest]

Woo! Here I am again, guys, from a different IP at Columbia!! Catch me if you can!! Because it's completely impossible that multiple people using the same server could possibly be posting here!!

"I'm not sure just what you mean by communism, but it's sure not what Marx meant."
I like how people here can make distinctions between Marxism and Communism when it's convenient to do so, but use one to define the other when it suits their purposes. Bravo, vox. It must be tedious being right all the time, as you clearly are. Now, on to the people who have points to make, after I'm done laughing at the one who just postures.

"What I find hilarious is how people can come out and say that they don’t believe in socialism yet support social security."
Is it hilarious when people support handgun ownership but don't believe in assault rifles? Supporting governmental aid programs is completely different from advocating full-blown socialism.

"The conservatives opposed social security when it was implemented, yet today find themselves in support of it because the elderly"
Most "conservative" politicians today weren't even alive when Social Security was implemented.

"In this you see that Karl Marx has even influenced the United States through Socialist reforms."
No argument there. What's the point, though? That some of Marx's ideas were assimilated into capitalism to make it stronger? I agree.

[Guest]

"Regardless, I noticed that you didn't answer the point about capitalism needing a strong, centralized gov't in order to be preserved, for the contradictions inherent in capitalist social relations would cause the system to fail fairly quickly without gov't intervention."

And what if this is true? What if capitalism needs a government to help it along? What's your point?

[RedCeltic]

What's the point, though? That some of Marx's ideas were assimilated into capitalism to make it stronger? I agree

My point is that if there is a need to implement socialist reforms, that indicates the weak nature of capitalism. And, in case I didn't make it clear before I'm a reformist, as many socialists are today... even communists like the CP-USA are called "Reform Communists."

[Guest]

"My point is that if there is a need to implement socialist reforms, that indicates the weak nature of capitalism."
My question is this: does it imply that socialism is "stronger?"

[libereco]

so guest....why don't you simply register here so we have know who were talking to, and when it is you?

[Guest]

I don't want the vast right-wing conspiracy to come and arrest me in the middle of the night.

[libereco]

they got your IP adress anyway ;)

[vox]

Guest,

I believe that I've already made my point. Undoubtedly, you will call it "posturing," though you can't seem to explain just how I'm posturing, which is not surprising.

Read my post again, please, and pay attention to it. The answer is in there. Honest.

vox

[Mclaren]

Hello

[Guest1]

Reform Communism is not Communism, it's Socialism... nothing wrong with it, but it's Socialism. While both believe that current Capitalism is flawed, Socialism believes it can be fixed with "reforms" while Communism believes it has to be destroyed and we must start again with a new system.

[Mclaren]

Try and get 1000 views up

[Son of Scargill]

Christ,McLaren,you're more annoying than a retarded right-winger!Stop posting this shit.Get a life,do anything,but just stop this bullshit!!!!!!!

[RedCeltic]

someone get the fly swatter out

[Son of Scargill]

I'm an easy going person,I'll listen to anyone's point of view,but he doesn't have one,that's what pisses me off!

[Mclaren]

I agree I must stop doing that!

Bad

Stop it