call for (gay) boycott of russian vodka over lgtb rights gains momentum

[Sasha]

http://slog.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/mobile/2013/07/24/why-im-boycotting-russian-vodka

[Sam_b]

I don't see how boycotting a couple of Russian brands is going to make any difference whatsoever to the Russian government and its relationship to the Orthodox church. Neither do I see it stopping the growth of numerous fascist organisations that are actively intimidating and assaulting LGBT people on the streets.

[Sasha]

its liberal slacktivism for sure, but all little bits help...

[Sam_b]

How does it help? A slight reduction in Stoli sales is neither going to hurt the Kremlin nor is it going to change the composition of the Duma.

[precarian]

I wish do-gooder liberal types would cease with this idiocy! Ethical consumerism is a peculiar product of late capitalist society, where people have no collective power outwith their status as consumers. Protest is, therefore, conducted according to the principles of market exchange - the "invisible hand" will deliver justice, of course! Thoroughly bourgeois and totally pointless.

[Il Medico]

This is dumb. Boycotting Russian vodka will do abolsutely fuck all to improve the situation for queers in Russia.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Seems like the Russian version of that Chick-Fil-a nonsense. Tiss all I have to say on that.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Just saw this story online...

http://www.thegailygrind.com/2013/07/25/russian-neo-nazi-groups-tricking-and-torturing-gay-male-teenagers-the-blood-is-on-putin-hands/

...but by all means, continue with that boycott so I can see the progress flow in :rolleyes:

(Fucking liberals)

[khad]

http://slog.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/mobile/2013/07/24/why-im-boycotting-russian-vodka
Oh look, from the comments of your call to arms:


Stoli isn't even from Russia anymore; it's based in Latvia. Not only that, but as a company Stoli sponsors all sorts of LGBT events all over the country. Why don't you do your research before you lead a witch hunt against a totally incorrect target?

Do it, please. This will be hilarious.

[Sasha]

Oh look, from the comments of your call to arms:



Do it, please. This will be hilarious.

The russian state re-acquired stoli after a long lawsuit actually... But yeah, what have you all done recently to support people under attack in Russia?
I mean, if you actually do something piss all you want on ze liberals but otherwise... you are maybe even worse than a liberal.

[Sasha]

Seems like the Russian version of that Chick-Fil-a nonsense. Tiss all I have to say on that.

Can't remember seeing a chick fil a in the Castro last time I was there though...
I mean, its not like that the Coors boycott didn't transform a shitty homophobic company in into a still shitty but at least pro-gay company that treats its gay employees better than the country does and gives a lot of money to gay causes.
Sure its all still capitalism but within capitalism the pink dollar actually wields some real power, sadly in stark contrast to people moaning in the internet.
You disagree? lead by example and do better.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

its liberal slacktivism for sure, but all little bits help...

Boycotting companies/states which support Queerphobic policies does indeed help... in a way, yet at the same time it must be remembered that thing such as this is never a avenue for actual change fundamental to equality. In a country like Russia where homophobia is so intense I can see why battling over support of a liquor company or other commodity producer's visibility would constitute a victory in itself. Again, however, anything won in these fights will only ever mean a minor propaganda win: the violence Queers are confronted with everyday will remain while the right-wing begins another new campaign against Queer organizations and rights. Boycotts like this do not hurt the cause but they do not particularly help it either.

[Hermes]

The russian state re-acquired stoli after a long lawsuit actually... But yeah, what have you all done recently to support people under attack in Russia?
I mean, if you actually do something piss all you want on ze liberals but otherwise... you are maybe even worse than a liberal.

Doesn't this kind of buy into the whole 'activism' mentality, though? That we HAVE TO DO SOMETHING RIGHT NOW, even if that something is completely ineffectual (and maybe even detrimental)?

I mean, it seems like you're suggesting that if we all, as individuals, put more pressure (in any way), the situation would be solved/lessened, without stopping to consider economic class.

Iunno, though, and no offense meant.

[Sam_b]

But yeah, what have you all done recently to support people under attack in Russia?

We don't support policies based on the notion "it's doing more than you are".

[Sasha]

I actually do, if we pull stolli at my work (like it seems like we will) we are talking thousands of dollars a month, if all the gay clubs do it it will be hundreds of thousands in the Netherlands alone. Every day homophobia and violence thrives on the back of institutional homophobia and violence. Russia is an oligarchy, when the oligarchy complains Putin listens. Sure we need to end societal homophobia through other means, but institutional homophobia might get dialed down a notch..

[khad]

The russian state re-acquired stoli after a long lawsuit actually... But yeah, what have you all done recently to support people under attack in Russia?
I mean, if you actually do something piss all you want on ze liberals but otherwise... you are maybe even worse than a liberal.
Please, tell me what boycotting Stoli is going to accomplish. Force them to market to Neo-Nazis? lol

http://www.outsideinsight.tv/post/45648370470/white-party-xtreme-2013-presented-by-stoli-elit-by


White Party Xtreme 2013 Presented by Stoli & Elit by Stolichnaya

I AM SO EXCITED to announce my next OUTside Insight with Eddie Rey travel destination!

I get to Visit Gay Palm Springs and the beautifully renovated Skylark Hotel Palm Springs for Jeffrey Sanker’s WHITE PARTY PALM SPRINGS - the World’s Largest Gay Dance & Music Festival In The World, courtesy of White Party Presenting Sponsor Stoli Vodka & Jeffrey Sanker Presents!

Ill have VIP access to all events, including the Exclusive Stoli & Elit by Stolichnaya & Andrew Christian Party courtesy of Glitteratti High Priest- Stoli LGBT Brand Ambassador Patrik Gallineaux & the Uber Fabulous- Brand Diplomat Lauren Wells.

[Sasha]

For one you could force them to support gay rights groups in russia, advertise with a pro gay rights message, you know stuff that's actually illegal in Russia at the moment. Let them challenge the law and bear the consequences instead of gay Russians.

[Sam_b]

Every day homophobia and violence thrives on the back of institutional homophobia and violence

Well you've just contradicted yourself. If it's institutional, then how is boycotting a company going to help?

It's also a really simplistic analysis, considering that Soyuzplodimport is not what you would term an 'oligarch' company, seeing as most of the affairs about management and distribution is done by other companies outside of Russia (see William Grant & Co's current handling of the Stolichnaya brand). In fact, Soyuzplodimport has been in direct conflict with the Russian government since the early 2000's over naming rights to Stoli.

So on the one hand, it's an institutionalised problem, but you're targeting a company that is not directly part of the institution?

[Sea]

For one you could force them to support gay rights groups in russia, advertise with a pro gay rights message, you know stuff that's actually illegal in Russia at the moment. Let them challenge the law and bear the consequences instead of gay Russians.Ceasing to purchase their vodka accomplishes this how? You're out of your mind if you think that Stoli would openly support LGBT movements in Russia. There's a reason they're not doing it already.

[Decolonize The Left]

I'm surprised at the responses here. Sure, boycotts themselves don't do much but coupled with other forms of activism can be quite effective.

Are you all going to piss and moan about the folks who boycotted grapes in support of Ceasar Chavez and the fight for migrant worker conditions? It was sooooooo liberal and bourgeois wasn't it? Gosh. I mean. Can't these people even seeeeee what's really going on here?

The responses in this thread look like whiny educated white kids critiquing something which doesn't even really deserve much comment. It's just another battle in the war. Don't buy some products - buy something else. Not a big deal. Not going to hurt your tough guy commi anti-liberal image. Just a simple choice when you're buying/stocking vodka and it might very well help a whole swath of people; it might not, but then again you're not risking a whole lot doing it are you?

[Decolonize The Left]

I mean, reading through this thread, are you all really so bored and inactive that you need to piss on a boycott to feel good? Honestly.

[Sam_b]

Well, if you read what I have said in this thread, my issue hasn't been with it being 'liberal' at all. It's been that a boycott of something not associated with the Russian government isn't going to particularly cause the Russian government to change its policy; and it's not going to hurt the Russian government financially either. It's just a ridiculous idea.

The fact you're comparing it to Ceasar Chavez makes very little sense either, seeing as that particular boycott was called by the workers and directly affected them. Boycotting Stolichnaya does not directly affect the Russian government.

[Sam_b]

I mean, reading through this thread, are you all really so bored and inactive that you need to piss on a boycott to feel good? Honestly

Perish the thought of using Revleft as a discussion forum for politics, strategy and tactics right?

[Tenka]

I already don't drink any vodka. It's amazing how simple and easy it is to promote the rights of oppressed minorities. :rolleyes:

[Decolonize The Left]

Perish the thought of using Revleft as a discussion forum for politics, strategy and tactics right?

Psycho didn't put this forward as a leftist tactic or strategy. He's just letting folks know what's going on. Not a big deal. Not worthy of shitting all over because it's got liberal/bourgeois character.

I'll bet that if this boycott did result in better treatment of LGBTQ folks in Russia that you would eat your words. You're just betting it isn't going to happen which means your putting your own personal argumentative ego above the possible improvement of living for others.

Ain't nobody telling you to do anything. The hostility here for shit that isn't bathed in just the right tint of red is astonishing. And you wonder why the left is so isolated.

[Sasha]

The CEO of Stolichnaya Vodka released an open letter to the gay community today—so they're paying attention, which is good, and they're scared, which is even better. The letter is in the link above.


For the record: Regardless of where SPI Group's corporate offices are located, the company is owned by Yuri Scheffler, one of the 100 richest men in Russia. SPI is a Russian corporation, Stoli is a Russian vodka. And while it's nice that SPI is willing to market to homos who are lucky enough to live in Austria, the US, and South Africa, what has SPI done in Russia? The group has sponsored gay pride events in Vienna and Miami. That's nice. But have they sponsored gay pride events in Moscow or St. Petersburg? Val says that Stoli is upset and angry. That's nice. So has Stoli said anything to the Russian authorities? Has Yuri Scheffler expressed his anger in an open letter to Vladimir Putin? Did the SPI Group speak the fuck up before the Russian government passed a law that made it a crime to be openly gay and a crime to publicly support someone who is openly gay? Frankly I'm not interested in Stoli's marketing efforts in the West. I'm interested in what this Russian-owned company is doing in Russia. And from this letter it's clear they've done and they only plan on doing squat.

Two commenters at JMG cut to the heart of the matter:

I guess the paragraph about how Stoli is going work toward demanding that the Russian Government end discrimination went missing.

Dear Russian Oligarch: You and your friends control your nation via your fortune and connections. Fixthis or GTFO.

But this comment at JMG wins the thread:

So is the CEO of Stoli now subject to arrest and incarceration in Russia for writing this pro-gay letter?


http://slog.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/mobile/2013/07/25/dump-stoli-well-weve-got-their-attention

I wish we got "support" letters of our targets this fast...

[Sam_b]

Psycho didn't put this forward as a leftist tactic or strategy. He's just letting folks know what's going on. Not a big deal. Not worthy of shitting all over because it's got liberal/bourgeois character.


Absolutely fucking irrelevant. The OP does not control a thread, and users are welcome to start a discussion on a discussion forum, and in particularly a sub-forum dedicated for doing so. Keep going on about 'liberal/bourgeois character' if it makes you feel better, despite (at least in my case) I have never raised this as some sort of criticism.


I'll bet that if this boycott did result in better treatment of LGBTQ folks in Russia that you would eat your words. You're just betting it isn't going to happen which means your putting your own personal argumentative ego above the possible improvement of living for others.

I am not betting "whether it isn't going to happen", politics isn't about making some sort of asinine prediction. The first sentence in this quote as well is so jaw-droppingly obvious that it doesn't even bear commenting about, as if I'm somehow willing the LGBTQ movement in Russia to be crushed. What I have been saying in this thread, rather than some nonsense merchant coming in and trying to characterise me as willing this campaign to fail, is that I fail to see the correlation between the desire of the campaigners to hurt the Russian government and how this campaign will do that. What hasn't happened in this thread is any decent response to that.

[Chop_Sugar_Cane_Dem]

Why go after the alcohol (which itself, can be seen as racist, given that they're attacking vodka based on the presumption that this is all Russia produces)? If they really wanted to make a statement/splash, why not boycott the petrol that keeps them warm during those long winter nights? That'd show real conviction! Just like the good ol' partisans of yore!

[Devrim]

As much as it surprises me to find myself in this position, I am in agreement with Sam here. It is not a word that I use often, but abject liberalism is the term that comes to mind for much of the criticism of him.

Devrim

[The Feral Underclass]

I only ever want to spend (at the most) £15 for a litre of a vodka, which is limited mostly to either supermarket own-brands or Glen's, which is distilled in Scotland.

I am waging a gay boycott by default.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I hope when the boycott fails it leads into SHAC type activism, and the gradual repoliticization of "gay" politics.
From gay boycott to queer social war! :lol:

[Chop_Sugar_Cane_Dem]

NEWSFLASH: Stoli turns out in fact to be a long-standing ally of the LGBT community (or at least their dollars, anway) and have been advertising and promoting LGBT acceptance since at least 2006, long before many mainstream publications found it acceptable to even take such ads.

This is basically just an ignorant, racial-thinking-based attack against the Russian people, since the thinking seems to go along the line of "those bastard Russians love to drink, lets target their most sacred cow: vodka! :confused: "

Not all of Russia is against LGBT. A sizeable segment is, but remember, this polling pretty much is the same as in Israel, Saudi Arabia or even South Korea, yet I see no en masse boycotts of these countries.

[Sasha]

NEWSFLASH: Stoli turns out in fact to be a long-standing ally of the LGBT community (or at least their dollars, anway) and have been advertising and promoting LGBT acceptance since at least 2006, long before many mainstream publications found it acceptable to even take such ads.

This is basically just an ignorant, racial-thinking-based attack against the Russian people, since the thinking seems to go along the line of "those bastard Russians love to drink, lets target their most sacred cow: vodka! :confused: "

Not all of Russia is against LGBT. A sizeable segment is, but remember, this polling pretty much is the same as in Israel, Saudi Arabia or even South Korea, yet I see no en masse boycotts of these countries.


Sigh, if you took the effort to read the thread that was never denied, though i cringe at the word "ally", its excactly because stolli, making huge ammounts of pink dollars, focusses IN THE WESTERN market their advertising on being such a cool, gay friendly company while refusing to do a single damn thing to support gay people in their homecountry. All stoli has to do is make one single gay friendly poster campaing in russia it self, breaking the legal ban on "gay propaganda" while being a major brand with deep financial pockets and excellent lawyers, and this boycott not only disapears but twice as many gay bars will stock stolli as before. Its because they are supposedly this big gay brand that they are getting boycotted, not despite.

[Igor]

only russian vodka i ever buy is standard anyways so it's glad to know im doing valuable work

[Chop_Sugar_Cane_Dem]

...its excactly because stolli, making huge ammounts of pink dollars, focusses IN THE WESTERN market their advertising on being such a cool, gay friendly company while refusing to do a single damn thing to support gay people in their homecountry.

They're a publicly held company. What do you expect them to do?


All stoli has to do is make one single gay friendly poster campaing in russia it self, breaking the legal ban on "gay propaganda"

That would lose shareholders money, and would never reach shareholder approval. Whether you agree with capitalism or not, you at least do know how capitalism works, right? Serious question, btw...



Its because they are supposedly this big gay brand that they are getting boycotted, not despite.

No, they're being boycotted because people are ignorant and they think Russia's economy, either literally or symbolically, consists of vodka and winter sports, and that these are the only things Russians produce. These are the same sort of people who would think to boycott black businesses by not eating anymore watermelon or fried chicken. It's pure ignorance.

As I said before: If People really wanted to take a stand (or at least, satisfy their self-righteous ego), they'd boycott the petrol that keeps Europeans warm in the winter and their shipping costs down...But that would actually require giving something up now, wouldn't it? :laugh:

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

But of course, here's the thing; we, as communists shouldn't want them to give in, we should want this to fail.

The point of queer activism is not for legal recognition. In fact I would say that if queer sexuality were to be assimilated then that would represent the single greatest defeat it has ever faced. The point is to build towards an anti-systemic movement of sexual liberation. Hence why we as Communists shouldn['t oppose every movement and every slogan because it represents a living movement, but rather we must be willing to engage and be critical of slogans and tactics because a fair amount of them are wrong and down right counter productive even if they come from genuine people. For to do otherwise is to abdicate our responsibilities as Communists.

We shouldn't be advocating boycott tactics, we should be organizing strikes in solidarity.

"But who will listen to us? What will that change"

It will be as effective as the boycott tactic given how little the left exists in the working class. However it would be infinitely more valuable because it would contribute towards the building of a movement of free producers, instead of a movement of "responsible consumers"

[Jimmie Higgins]

Boycotts are a tactic - generally a weak one for workers since we have less power and influence as consumers than we do as workers, and because of the moralistic aspects of a lot of boycotts. But there are situations where boycotts are effective, I'd argue not in hurting companies but in building solidarity and organization. The Montgomery bus boycott, the Coors boycott, come to mind.

However, this, I don't know. First, I'm a little uneasy of the "pinkwashing" aspects of it - as absurd and draconian as Russia's anti-lgbt bullshit goes, there's been a lot of anti-Russian jingoism in the US and a lot of the lgbt rights issues have been used to make arguments based more in imperial rivalry than liberation. It's not as though the US government and US institutions are suddenly as actually gay-friendly as the liberal pundits make it out to be.

So I think it's pretty fair to criticize the boycott organizers for something that really isn't that effective and may have a consaquence of playing into jingoism while similtaniously ignoring the long-fights and movements still needed in the US. As for people who support the boycott as a sort of passive show of disgust for these disgusting attacks and pronouncements in Russia - not a problem as I see it. I think, rather than dennouncing the consumerism and liberalism of it, it would be better to tell a (non-bar owning) supporter of the boycott that their disgust is justified but we need to do more than symbolic acts to be able to actually defend people, and organizing against oppression here is the first step. I think other than some bar owners or liberal politicians, regular people supporting this would already recognize it's largly just symbolic.

[Stalinist Speaker]

completely useless wont do shit because most of those vodka companies are probably privatized anyways.