Defense

[New Tolerance]

How will we be able to defend ourselves in the new society from armies of aggression?

What's your oppinion?

[The Feral Underclass]

The workers would be organized into defence militias and would co-ordinate themselves using the expertise of former soldiers and police officers who had joined the workers. They would be able to use their knowledge to organize us.

[New Tolerance]

How would we produce and store advanced defense-only weaponary while making sure that they will not be misused by certain people? (to gain power etc etc....) Since those who organize such operations might get opportunities to do this.

[ComradeRed]

we'll need to find a trotsky who'll do this for the greater good of humanity...

[The Feral Underclass]

How would we produce and store advanced defense-only weaponary while making sure that they will not be misused by certain people? (to gain power etc etc....) Since those who organize such operations might get opportunities to do this.

I dont know how long a revolution would be. Most weapons could be expropriated from the military and police force. Baring in mind that a popular revolution will see thousands of police officers and soldiers joining the revolution and will bring their weapons with them. Also bare in mind that revolutions have been won without such high tech equipment. The cuban and vietnamese revolutions both crushed armies whith superior fire power.

[Soviet power supreme]

An interesting thread

As A Finn I always refer to Finnish revolution in 1918.

The proletariate lost the revolution because they didnt have the machine guns or artillery or military trained troops.But they had outnumbered the cappies and fascists.


Baring in mind that a popular revolution will see thousands of police officers and soldiers joining the revolution and will bring their weapons with them

Yes polices maybe can bring their handguns which are almost crappy against the machine guns.

Soldiers bringing their own weapons?

Firstly armies are full of right wingers who will fight against us
second couple individuals just cant smuggle guns from the military bases.


The cuban and vietnamese revolutions both crushed armies whith superior fire power.


Baring in the mind that those where ideal places for guerilla war as those countries have lots of jungles.

They got the big guns
http://www.sunpoint.net/~solidkom/kuvia/TampereTammela1918.jpg

Revolutionaries main area Tampere In Finland in 1918.
The cappies just smashed the town easily with their guns and army and executed frikin much workers.

[The Feral Underclass]

Yes polices maybe can bring their handguns which are almost crappy against the machine guns.

Actually the police force have many different types of weapons from up to date hand guns to automatic machine guns.


Firstly armies are full of right wingers who will fight against us

But soldiers are members of the working class and are equally as exploited. A popular revolution can only happen through years of build up. Peoples level of consciousness will take years to mature. The revolution will not be something that just happens, it will be a result of cosnciousness. It will be popular meaning it will sweep the nation. These soliders will not fire upon their friends and families. They will see what is happening and realise that their fight is not with the workers it is with their commanding officers and with the ruling class. It has happened everytime a popular revolution has started. It happened in Russia, Serbia and Indonesia. The police and the army realised that they could not justify what they were defending and joined the popular uprisings. There is no reason it wont happen again.


second couple individuals just cant smuggle guns from the military bases.

So we shoot all the officers and expropriate them in the name of the revolution.


Baring in the mind that those where ideal places for guerilla war as those countries have lots of jungles.

This is true but I think that this style of fighting can be reproduced anywhere in the world.


The cappies just smashed the town easily with their guns and army and executed frikin much workers.

So we learn from history. If they have big guns then we destroy them or steal them. We get clever, we find ways to deal with these problems. The IRA in the 20's brought the British empire down to its knees using a terrorist campaign against the ruling class. There are ways and means.

[Soviet power supreme]

Actually the police force have many different types of weapons from up to date hand guns to automatic machine guns.

Well I dont know what it is like in UK, but in Finland only the police's special task force has weapons like mp5 or sniper rifles.


This is true but I think that this style of fighting can be reproduced anywhere in the world.

But in your dreams everybody would rise against the capitalists and easily kill them because they dont have anyone's support.Why there would be need for a guerilla war in anarchist revolution?

[Faceless]

It is the mistake of Anarchists not to realise that the formation of any militia, unless it involves the whole populus and is entirely spontaneous, constitutes a state. I, as a Marxist, believe that to fight counter-terrorism we must still form these militias but I would argue that it can not be done anarchicly. The state must also deal justice to the criminals of the old order. Marx realised that we must smash the state upon revolution and rebuild it upon democratic and pro-revolution foundations. To compile militias from ex-capitalist tools is not the way to go. I do believe that the old order military can help bring about revolution but they must not remain in their places in the old state. Lenin made this mistake. For an anarchist to suggest anything similar is surprising.

[The Feral Underclass]

It is the mistake of Anarchists not to realise that the formation of any militia, unless it involves the whole populus and is entirely spontaneous, constitutes a state.

The state is a system of institutions centralised into the control of a ruling elite. How on earth could you suggest that a milita of workers, organized without "leaders" to bellow orders is a state. Your opinion of a state is somewhat distorted and you do not make it clear exactly how a milita constitutes a state. Your simply wrong.


I, as a Marxist, believe that to fight counter-terrorism we must still form these militias but I would argue that it can not be done anarchicly.

I am not sure what you are refering to when you say terrorism. I am talking about workers organizing themselves to defend a workers revolution.

Militas being organized in an "anarchic" way simply means that the role of those who have control over people who accept their control would not exist. Please elaberate on why you do not think that human beings can be organized without leaders to tell them what to do?


state must also deal justice to the criminals of the old order.

Once again the state has been given mystical powers over human beings. When you refer to the state what you mean is those indeviduals who control centralised institutions and systems of oppression. It is infact the human mind that "deals justice" and it is quite simply done without using said institutions or systems.


Marx realised that we must smash the state upon revolution and rebuild it upon democratic and pro-revolution foundations.

Marx actually said that there had to be a transitional period between capitalism and communism where the workers control the state. Marx advocated maintaining the a state not smashing it.


To compile militias from ex-capitalist tools is not the way to go.

So you are saying that men and women are not able to join the revolution because they happened to be soliders and police officers? Remember, soliders and rank and file police officers are workers. They maybe further from any form of class consciousness and very securly intergrated into the present state structure but that does not mean they are not workers. In fact these workers are used by the state to perpetrate the ruling classes existence. They are blinded by hate and fear by those who control them in order to suppress members of their own class. Exploitation comes in many forms, and we should not exclude people from attaining liberation just because we dont happen to agree with their career options.

If soldiers and police officers refused to fight the workers and joined the revolution, which has happened during many revolutions, and began to fight for workers liberation why would you turn them away?


I do believe that the old order military can help bring about revolution but they must not remain in their places in the old state. Lenin made this mistake.

Why would they remain in their old positions? This dosnt make sense. The point to a workers revolution is to break down these old orders and positions. These positions wouldnt exist for people to remain in them.


Lenin made this mistake.

His mistake was perpetrating a state.


For an anarchist to suggest anything similar is surprising.

I dont mean to be rude but I dont think you know what your talking about!

[Faceless]

AT, I didnt mean counter terror but counter revolution in my post

The militia formed are trained by whom? Themselves? If it is the old police/military then you have formed an authority over the lower levels of trainees. The Marxist state needs to be as inclusive as possible but recognise that doing any of the above DOES CONSTITUTE A STATE. Your view of "ruling elite" and "centralised authority" is at best vague and at worst exclusive. The militia will develop into an inevitable part of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat over the bourgeois minority. The will use all means available to undermine us. Human or not, the old ruling elite need to be offered emancipation but will most likely end up requiring to be crushed. It has happened time and again that the deposed elite have fled and organised counter-revolution. In Cuba, Haiti etc.. Your respect for human liberty extends to protecting those who would kill if not dealt justice.

To the main point, no militia is self training and a rabble will not maintain zeal enough to stop the coherent attempts at terror-based counter-revolution. A representative group, democratic, whatever, is needed to train militias. Even the old police. A command structure will form and I hope it'll be as democratic and pro-populus as pos..

[The Feral Underclass]

The militia formed are trained by whom? Themselves? If it is the old police/military then you have formed an authority over the lower levels of trainees.

You have distorted the meaning of authority. Have authority over someone and having authority of something is completely different. Having training by someone who knows what their talking about is not the same has having someone who has control over you.


The Marxist state needs to be as inclusive as possible but recognise that doing any of the above DOES CONSTITUTE A STATE.

Your saying that by having former soldiers who have become conscious joined a workers revolution and have volunteered to train new recruits constitutes a state?


Your view of "ruling elite" and "centralised authority" is at best vague and at worst exclusive.

The state comes in many forms but are all essentially the same. The ruling elite dosnt make up the state, the state makes the ruling elite. The state is used by those who have power to remain in power. The state is designed for this purpose. The state is a group of institutions created and controlled by this ruling elite to perpetrate their control. It is the same for any state. You have a ruling elite, those who control, who run and organize military, government, security and economic affairs into a centralised structure to maintin their rule of those who are ruled.

I think the vagueness comes from your lack of understanding, and if you are claiming that this exclusiveness refers to Leninism then you miss the point. The state is exclusive to a state and although may change in name does not change in essence. That is why Leninism dosnt work.


The militia will develop into an inevitable part of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat over the bourgeois minority.

So the theory goes. However the outcome of any kind of organization like this will not or could not be communism.


The will use all means available to undermine us. Human or not, the old ruling elite need to be offered emancipation but will most likely end up requiring to be crushed.

I agree.


Your respect for human liberty extends to protecting those who would kill if not dealt justice.

The disease leninism is, is so fascinating to look at up close. Like a gang greened pustual. I am amazed the effect it has on the human mind. How did you logically conclude that because I believe that the ruling class can be fought without the use of a state, which invariable can not lead to communism, means I wish to protect the ruling class. :blink:


To the main point, no militia is self training

So we get training.


a rabble will not maintain zeal enough to stop the coherent attempts at terror-based counter-revolution

Then why are they being forced to have zeal. Surly the point of a revolution is for conscious workers to confront capitalism. Not to be coerced into This zeal that you claim will not exist is called the will and desire to change society. Consciousness.


A command structure will form and I hope it'll be as democratic and pro-populus as pos..

How can it be democratic when there are people giving out orders over people who dont want to be there, or have no zeal. You can not create hierarchy and centralise command while promoting democracy. In order for this milita to function a high level of discpline and order has to be inflicted. How can these be pro-populas and democratic at all?

[Zanzibar]

Every citizen will be armed and trained to defend their country.