Killers in a stateless society

[littleredcircus]

Hi all,

Sorry for the stupid question but I must ask as it's something I get asked a lot when trying to convert someone to communism but i can never answer it. Obviously I support a classless, stateless, moneyless society but how would we deal with people such as serial killers and pedophiles? you know, the kind of people who aren't interested in material gain etc if there's no police force to stop them?

would the people jail them ? I'm really not sure. sorry for sounding naive.

[BIXX]

Hi all,

Sorry for the stupid question but I must ask as it's something I get asked a lot when trying to convert someone to communism but i can never answer it. Obviously I support a classless, stateless, moneyless society but how would we deal with people such as serial killers and pedophiles? you know, the kind of people who aren't interested in material gain etc if there's no police force to stop them?

would the people jail them ? I'm really not sure. sorry for sounding naive.

Well, my solution would be to get them help in a mental health facility. Also, not one of those prisons we label as "psychiatric wards" or whatever, I mean like actual help.

[Sotionov]

Guillaume, Bakunin, Ideas on Social Organization

Security

This service embraces the necessary measures to guarantee to all inhabitants of the commune the security of their person and the protection of their homes, their possessions, etc., against deprivation and accident (fire, floods, etc.).


There will probably be very little brigandage and robbery in a society where each lives in full freedom to enjoy the fruits of his labor and where almost all his needs will be abundantly fulfilled. Material well-being, as well as the intellectual and moral progress which are the products of a truly humane education, available to all, will almost eliminate crimes due to perversion, brutality, and other infirmities. It will nevertheless still he necessary to take precautions for the security of persons. This service, which can be called (if the phrase has not too bad a connotation) the Communal Police, will not be entrusted, as it is today, to a special, official body; all able-bodied inhabitants will be called upon to take turns in the security measures instituted by the commune.


It will doubtless be asked how those committing murder and other violent crimes will be treated in the new equalization society. Obviously society cannot, on the pretext of respect for individual rights – and the negation of authority, permit a murderer to run loose, or wait for a friend of the victim to avenge him. The murderer will have to be deprived of his liberty and confined to a special house until he can without danger be returned to society. How is the criminal to be treated during his confinement? And according to what principles should his term be fixed? These are delicate questions on which opinions vary widely. We must learn from experience, but this much we already know: that thanks to the beneficent effects of education (see below) crimes will he rare. Criminals being an exception, they will be treated like the sick and the deranged; the problem of crime which today gives so many jobs to judges, jailers, and police will lose its social importance and become simply a chapter in medical history.


...



A little longer answer:

http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secI5.html#seci58

[LOLseph Stalin]

I doubt things like this would occur in a communist society since there would be little incentive to commit crimes. However, in the rare case that it did I think the people themselves would decide an appropriate punishment rather than a whole bureaucratic justice system like we have now.

Also, in the case that the person is mentally ill, like EchoShock said, they could get mental help too since there would be universal access to it.

[Petrol Bomb]

I don't know how murderers will be dealt with in communism. We can't really draw up plans of the specifics of communist society. Whatever is decided as best by the community, I think would be likely. To the post above me, besides murder due to material conditions, is all the rest of murder a mental health issue? I know that it would amount to a large part of it, but I am not sure if it would amount to all of it. Each situation would have to be looked at, and the best course of action decided on, be it placing them in a facility to give them mental help, or something else.

[Petrol Bomb]

I don't know how murderers will be dealt with in communism. We can't really draw up plans of the specifics of communist society. Whatever is decided as best by the community, I think would be likely.
.

Well, my solution would be to get them help in a mental health facility. Also, not one of those prisons we label as "psychiatric wards" or whatever, I mean like actual help.

To EchoShock, besides murder due to material conditions, is all the rest of murder a mental health issue? I know that it would amount to a large part of it, but I am not sure if it would amount to all of it. Each situation would have to be looked at, and the best course of action decided on, be it placing them in a facility to give them mental help, or something else.

[BIXX]

I don't know how murderers will be dealt with in communism. We can't really draw up plans of the specifics of communist society. Whatever is decided as best by the community, I think would be likely.
.


To EchoShock, besides murder due to material conditions, is all the rest of murder a mental health issue? I know that it would amount to a large part of it, but I am not sure if it would amount to all of it. Each situation would have to be looked at, and the best course of action decided on, be it placing them in a facility to give them mental help, or something else.

I was operating under what our OP said about serial killers, however, the communities would have to decide what happens to the killer (or rapist or anything like that).

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I think the problem is implicit in the question, who are "we" and who are the "murderers"? Existing capitalist models of justice in which the state confronts the individual with the goal of "correction" vis- the capitalist order presuppose a false equivalence on the basis of various schemes of classification (criminal codes, "mitigating circumstances", etc.) rather than understanding behaviour as conditioned by the dynamic of the "environment" (community, etc.) in which a "crime" occurred. The dynamics of capital continue to generate "criminals", and will continue to do so until their fundamental transformation. In a communist context, violence (or whatever) has to be taken on not as the actions of an "individual", but as the outcome of processes that are a collective responsibility.
OK, that said, I'm sure that's not the answer you're looking for. In practical terms, what I mean is that murders in a communist society have to be approached not as crimes carried out by an individual, but as a consequence of particular conditions. As such, what would be done would necessarily vary wildly based on a whole lot of peculiarities. Would their be extreme cases where someone might be confined? I would hope not, but who knows. More likely, something in the vein of a "transformative justice" process would happen.

[waqob]

I guess whatever the community decides

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

In communism, some kind of supervision is still needed in a communist society.
I wouldn't call this a police (since it isn't the armed body of the state) , but more of a neighbourhood watch type thing. With all members of society participating, though not at the same time, and democratic control to limit abuse of power, in as far as that as still possible.

[d3crypt]

If someone is a textbook psychopath or sociopath then they should be put in a psych ward. There is no room in society for people like that until they are cured of their mental illness. Other than that i think that the community should just vote on something. But the death penalty should not be an option.

[BIXX]

If someone is a textbook psychopath or sociopath then they should be put in a psych ward. There is no room in society for people like that until they are cured of their mental illness. Other than that i think that the community should just vote on something. But the death penalty should not be an option.

As long as the psych ward actually helps people, rather than just being a prison under a different name.

[d3crypt]

As long as the psych ward actually helps people, rather than just being a prison under a different name.

Ya, it should be like the prisons in Norway. Those prisons are like hotels.

[Sotionov]

Yeah, you go Breivik and as a punishment you get a comfy suite, three nice meals a day, tv, computer, access to a nice modern bathroom, gym, basketball and soccer court, all that for no charge except for not leaving the room for most of the day, and not leaving the building for the next 21+ years.

[Ace High]

Honestly, going to prison in Norway for the rest of your life sounds way better than the lives of a TON of people. It really is like a luxury hotel, hell, from the pictures, those prisons are way better than alot of hotels!

[d3crypt]

Yeah, you go Breivik and as a punishment you get a comfy suite, three nice meals a day, tv, computer, access to a nice modern bathroom, gym, basketball and soccer court, all that for no charge except for not leaving the room for most of the day, and not leaving the building for the next 21+ years.

Well the focus is on rehabilitation and it is pretty succesful. The rate of repeat offenders is extremely low. Plus they have a max sentence of 21 years. Punishing people in a brutal prison doesn't do any good.