Register your opposition to capitalism in the London elections

[VinnieUK]

On July 25th workers in London will be given an opportunity to register their vote against the wages system and all its horrors:grin:.



http://spgb.blogspot.co.uk/

"Things are not produced today to meet people’s needs. They are produced to make a profit. And that’s the cause of the problems people in Tulse Hill face.

Under the profit system profits always come first. Before providing basic services like health care and transport, before improving conditions at work, and before providing decent housing.

It’s profits first, people second.

Under the profit system production is in the hands of profit-seeking business enterprises, all competing to maximise the rate of return on the money invested in them.

Decisions as to what to produce and how much, and how and where to produce it, are not made in response to people’s needs but in response to market forces.

As a result, the health and welfare of the workforce and the effects on the environment take second place. The profit system can’t help doing this. It’s the only way it can work. Which is why it must go.

I know this is only a local by-election but make no apology for raising this issue. The reduced incomes and cuts to services that people in Tulse Hill are having to put up with are a direct result of the profit system being in an economic crisis.

When this happens governments, whatever their political colour, have to cut their spending so as to give profits a chance to recover. As local councils are largely financed by central government this trickles down to the local level too.

So, what’s the alternative?

One thing is certain. The Tories, LibDems and Labour — and now UKIP — have nothing to offer. They all support the profit system and are only squabbling over which of them should have a go at running it.

If we are going to improve things we are going to have to act for ourselves, without professional politicians or leaders of any kind.

We are going to have to organise ourselves democratically to bring about a society geared to serving human needs not profits.

Production to satisfy people’s needs. That’s the alternative. But this can only be done if we control production and the only basis for this is common ownership and democratic control.

A member of the party has been put forward by the Socialist Party as a name on the ballot paper you can put an X against to register your rejection of the profit system and your agreement with the alternative."

Workers of all countries unite...

[The Idler]

Finally a party socialist workers can use to capture state power to effectively neutralise it.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

hah, I almost wish I lived in London! I wish all the best to them, and I hope there's a good turnout of people expressing their dissatisfaction and willing to learn about socialism

[helot]

lol wut?

Could someone explain to me the idea behind this electioneering? To me it seems like a waste of time and resources and i fear it only furthers the facade of the ballot box.

[The Idler]

The ballot box is one of the ways workers can democratically capture state power. The tradition of the workers movement is to ballot members on decisions. Plenty of activity 'socialists' perform is a waste of time and resources but using the ballot seems to be one of the more effective ones.

Here's a question, will the 'socialists' who call for unity, and decry the SPGB as sectarian, set an example, and vote for the SPGB? Surely, to not do so, would be 'sectarian' on their terms?

[Comrade Jacob]

Good, I hope for them the best result. ;)1

[Brosa Luxemburg]

are you fucking kidding me. lol

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

The ballot box is one of the ways workers can democratically capture state power.

In the democratic republic of Cockaigne, perhaps. On this Earth, democratic republics are an instrument of bourgeois dictatorship, and advancing into the era of the dictatorship of the proletariat requires smashing the bourgeois state apparatus - and the futility of purely parliamentary strategy should be apparent to anyone familiar with events in France, Spain, Chile etc. etc.

[ed miliband]

there are no "london elections" on the 25th (tomorrow!) - is this referring to a small council ward by-election or something? very unclear what is meant at all.

[helot]

The ballot box is one of the ways workers can democratically capture state power. The tradition of the workers movement is to ballot members on decisions. Plenty of activity 'socialists' perform is a waste of time and resources but using the ballot seems to be one of the more effective ones.

The labour movement has been playing that game for well over a century now. How is it effective? The workers cannot simply take hold of the ready-made state machinery and turn it to a new end.

[Sam_b]

Tulse Hill Ward in the Lambeth Council by-election. They'll get maybe a handful of votes, if it's more than a hundred I'll be surprised, they're a pretty uninspiring bunch of people.

EDIT: As are TUSC which is a project that's going nowhere.

[Anti-Traditional]

The labour movement has been playing that game for well over a century now. How is it effective? The workers cannot simply take hold of the ready-made state machinery and turn it to a new end.

Well the labour movement of the 20th century wasn't really anti-Capitalist. They managed to capture state power numerous times and made many reforms so they were successful in that regard. The SPGB are different though, they ain't going in to win reforms etc... they want the complete and immediate abolition of capitalism and see using the platform of parliament as the most peaceful and democratic way to do this. They support this argument by referencing Marx's argument that the revolution could be peacefully achieved in democratic countries.

[helot]

Well the labour movement of the 20th century wasn't really anti-Capitalist. They managed to capture state power numerous times and made many reforms so they were successful in that regard. The SPGB are different though, they ain't going in to win reforms etc... they want the complete and immediate abolition of capitalism and see using the platform of parliament as the most peaceful and democratic way to do this. They support this argument by referencing Marx's argument that the revolution could be peacefully achieved in democratic countries.


Supposing that it is effective it wouldn't be peaceful. It would result in an attempted coup and civil war. To claim this is peaceful is dishonest.

A few question...

So, suppose that they gain members in parliament but not enough to form a government would they participate in parliament?

If they gained enough to form a government then what?


Btw, i don't give a toss about Marx's views on he feasibility of bourgeois elections resulting in socialism because he was ignorant in this regard. There was still property requirements in the UK at Marx's death with 40% of adult males in 1884 disenfranchased because of this.

[Remus Bleys]

The ballot box is better than nothing.
My opinion is use it, but never be content with it.

[helot]

The ballot box is better than nothing.
My opinion is use it, but never be content with it.

It's a bit of a false dichotomy though, it's not a matter of vote or do nothing. We should be organising in our communities and our workplaces. It's the only way to develop the agency necessary to abolish capitalism.

[Rugged Collectivist]

A member of the party has been put forward by the Socialist Party as a name on the ballot paper you can put an X against to register your rejection of the profit system and your agreement with the alternative.

So from what I gather they're trying to get people to vote for their candidate to protest the electoral system, and they're doing this by... participating in the electoral system?

[VinnieUK]

In the democratic republic of Cockaigne, perhaps. On this Earth, democratic republics are an instrument of bourgeois dictatorship, and advancing into the era of the dictatorship of the proletariat requires smashing the bourgeois state apparatus - and the futility of purely parliamentary strategy should be apparent to anyone familiar with events in France, Spain, Chile etc. etc.

I have heard this one before but I don't get it. I have never known a class conscious socialist majority attempt and fail to use elections.

At the moment reformists calling themselves Trotskist, Leninist etc etc have but that is a failure of reformism not democratic revolution.
If you can't get workers to put a cross on a ballot paper how the hell do you expect them to smash the army, police and the whole capitalist apperatus??

In the 'democratic republic of Cockaigne, perhaps'??

[VinnieUK]

It's a bit of a false dichotomy though, it's not a matter of vote or do nothing. We should be organising in our communities and our workplaces. It's the only way to develop the agency necessary to abolish capitalism.

Workers already organise our 'work places' thank you. Workerss run capitalism from top to bottom. You wont find capitalists in the work place or on the front line. They invest and make profits, we organise the work place.

[helot]

Workers already organise our 'work places' thank you. Workerss run capitalism from top to bottom. You wont find capitalists in the work place or on the front line. They invest and make profits, we organise the work place.


Funny how you're purposefully misinterpreting what i said. I guess you have nothing of value to say then.

[The Idler]

In the democratic republic of Cockaigne, perhaps. On this Earth, democratic republics are an instrument of bourgeois dictatorship, and advancing into the era of the dictatorship of the proletariat requires smashing the bourgeois state apparatus - and the futility of purely parliamentary strategy should be apparent to anyone familiar with events in France, Spain, Chile etc. etc.
The SPGB do not propose a purely parliamentary strategy.

The labour movement has been playing that game for well over a century now. How is it effective? The workers cannot simply take hold of the ready-made state machinery and turn it to a new end.
For over a century now, almost every party with majority support at election time has captured state power.

Tulse Hill Ward in the Lambeth Council by-election. They'll get maybe a handful of votes, if it's more than a hundred I'll be surprised, they're a pretty uninspiring bunch of people.

EDIT: As are TUSC which is a project that's going nowhere.
As far as I know, you have no experience with the people in the SPGB, as its never come up before. As for whether it is inspiring, well I took a look at the International Socialist Group page titled About us (http://internationalsocialist.org.uk/index.php/get-involved/) and quite honestly, I have to say I find the SPGB much more inspiring in comparison. The first part on socialism suggests the grassroots would be organising a hierarchy over them. Why is domination prefaced with capitalist? The parts on ending oppression and anti-imperialism, say what they are against but not enough positively on what they are for.

Supposing that it is effective it wouldn't be peaceful. It would result in an attempted coup and civil war. To claim this is peaceful is dishonest.

A few question...

So, suppose that they gain members in parliament but not enough to form a government would they participate in parliament?

If they gained enough to form a government then what?


Btw, i don't give a toss about Marx's views on he feasibility of bourgeois elections resulting in socialism because he was ignorant in this regard. There was still property requirements in the UK at Marx's death with 40% of adult males in 1884 disenfranchased because of this.
And we now have much broader suffrage, so surely this is less relevant not more? The participation in parliament would be for propagating socialism.

It's a bit of a false dichotomy though, it's not a matter of vote or do nothing. We should be organising in our communities and our workplaces. It's the only way to develop the agency necessary to abolish capitalism.
The SPGB do not argue that there is dichotomy between voting or doing nothing.

So from what I gather they're trying to get people to vote for their candidate to protest the electoral system, and they're doing this by... participating in the electoral system?
If you support the SPGB case then you ought to vote for the SPGB. The SPGB are not standing to defend the electoral system.

[helot]

For over a century now, almost every party with majority support at election time has captured state power.

The party is not the working class.




And we now have much broader suffrage, so surely this is less relevant not more? The participation in parliament would be for propagating socialism.

I wasn't saying anything on that other than that Marx's views on it are irrelevant due to his position of ignorance on the matter.



The SPGB do not argue that there is dichotomy between voting or doing nothing.
Never said they did.


doesnt answer my questions though nor prove anything to do with its efficacy.

[The Idler]

The party is not the working class.



Sure, but Majority support = the working-class



I wasn't saying anything on that other than that Marx's views on it are irrelevant due to his position of ignorance on the matter.

Are you trying to explain why capturing state power including using the ballot would not work in the 21st Century or the 19th Century, or are you just dismissing Marx as ignorant.


Never said they did.

You dismissed electioneering as a waste of time and the ballot box as a facade in favour of organising in our communities and our workplaces. Why not both?


doesnt answer my questions though nor prove anything to do with its efficacy.
The working-class majority regularly endorses the ruling-class parties with the ballot every election time. This ballot is much more efficient than a coup or civil war.

[Sam_b]

well I took a look at the International Socialist Group page titled About us

Oh Christ, that's not even an argument. Whether or not I find an organisation inspiring has nothing to do with the organisation I am a member of, indeed since it's not a comparison and never has been one. It's a shame you've gone back to your usual style of deflection though when someone passes a comment on your pet organisation.

[The Idler]

So far, we're all in the dark as to why you commented that you find the SPGB "uninspiring". I doubt you have ever met any SPGBers let alone had anything experience close to working with them. This itself wouldn't be a problem, but a lot of misleading and inaccurate statements are made about the SPGB a lot on revleft, including for example the alleged "purely parliamentary approach" in the topic on the Tulse Hill, London by-election at the moment.

In previous topics where the SPGB has come up, completely baseless unsupported assertions have been made before. "Uninspiring" could be the new one, kind of like the opposite of "utopian" since that hasn't stuck.

As for comparing with the politics of the ISG, this is the non-sectarian approach rather than sectarians saying my politics are correct because that is the group I'm in.

[Sam_b]

but a lot of misleading and inaccurate statements are made about the SPGB a lot on revleft, including for example the alleged "purely parliamentary approach" in the topic on the Tulse Hill, London by-election at the moment.


I hope you're not trying to bring me into this via some sort of weird association as I haven't said anything of the sort.


In previous topics where the SPGB has come up, completely baseless unsupported assertions have been made before. "Uninspiring" could be the new one, kind of like the opposite of "utopian" since that hasn't stuck.

I'm not particularly inspired by a bunch of old white men sitting in a room, or indeed their magazine which I have bought when I see SPGB members on the annual May Day march. I'm not particularly inspired at an organisation which in these times thinks the most important thing is to release a pamphlet about using parliament. I've pretty much not been inspired by them ever since one of their candidates got into a back-and-forth with one of my pals on the old SSY internet forum during a by-election (Livingston? Maybe?) in 2005 odd. Of course your line of reasoning here is disingenous for the reason that anything I say here you will no doubt call 'baseless' and will bring up a part of the ISG's webpage to show how the SPGB are a better organisation. This is how you work on Revleft.


As for comparing with the politics of the ISG, this is the non-sectarian approach rather than sectarians saying my politics are correct because that is the group I'm in.

Please show me some quotes highlighting where I've said my politics are correct because I am a member of the ISG. Yet again more dishonesty.

[Sam_b]

For those interested, the SPGB came last with eleven votes. TUSC, however, were able to beat both UKIP and the Tories, which I would never have predicted.

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/CouncilDemocracy/DemocracyElections/ElectionsVoting/TulseHillWardByelectionDeclarationResult.htm

[The Idler]

I hope you're not trying to bring me into this via some sort of weird association as I haven't said anything of the sort.
To be clear, that refutation is not aimed at you. I'm not saying you made the "purely parliamentary" claim, it was made by Semendyaev.



I'm not particularly inspired by a bunch of old white men sitting in a room, or indeed their magazine which I have bought when I see SPGB members on the annual May Day march. I'm not particularly inspired at an organisation which in these times thinks the most important thing is to release a pamphlet about using parliament. I've pretty much not been inspired by them ever since one of their candidates got into a back-and-forth with one of my pals on the old SSY internet forum during a by-election (Livingston? Maybe?) in 2005 odd. Of course your line of reasoning here is disingenous for the reason that anything I say here you will no doubt call 'baseless' and will bring up a part of the ISG's webpage to show how the SPGB are a better organisation. This is how you work on Revleft.

I stand corrected, its not baseless.


Please show me some quotes highlighting where I've said my politics are correct because I am a member of the ISG. Yet again more dishonesty.I'm not saying that is your view but this attitude is the view of some users on revleft.
I acknowledge the results of the election you shared.