Capitalists

[El Commandante]

I don't want this post to become a rant at capitalists and right wings. If it does then I will simply delete it.

But I was talking to a friend and we were both perplexed about why someone becomes a capitalist. From reading many posts I understand people's reasoning for becoming a socialist. Many people because they are fed up of seeing injustice and want freedom.

But I can not understand what makes someone become a devout capitalist. Does anybody know? Capitalist, as you are our resident right winger maybe you could tell us why you support a right wing form of government.

[gogo gomez]

why not ask the russian soviet? were they not the communists who were at one time considering using capitalistic means to promote industry? according to soviet economist and industry planners greater emphasis on profit and depending on supply and demand was not such a bad deal. anyway it doesnt matter what capitalist says because who can believe it anyway. if someone wants to feel warm, fed, educated and rewarded for hard work at the end of the day, move to america you have the opportunity. hopefully we will never run out of resources and dont ever think about a "revolution" because that costs too much just wait in line for your welfare or unemployment check until the politicians who are funded by unions go figure.

delete that!

[booga]

Quote: from El Commandante on 10:20 pm on Dec. 13, 2001
I don't want this post to become a rant at capitalists and right wings. If it does then I will simply delete it.

From reading many posts I understand people's reasoning for becoming a socialist. Many people because they are fed up of seeing injustice and want freedom.



then join the peace corp...socialism has nothing to do with justice and freedom.

[Elfinity]

I think a lot of people are capitalists by default. It's the system most of us are brought up in, and the system most people accept. It's ingrained into our consciousness that capitalism and our democratic societies are great and provide the most opportunity and social conscience. We dont go to school, or watch tv, and see people saying anything positive about other political systems, so unless we're inclined to think outside popular opinion think the acceptance of capitalism is often inevitable.

And of course we're often brought up to worship the dreams of riches and encouraged to pursue financial success above all else. Our society isnt teaching us to value morality first.

Hope that doesnt sound like an anti-capitalist rant, it isnt meant to be. it's just my thoughts on why capitalism is so prevelant.

[Freiheit]

real capitalists, i mean idealists like adam smith etc. like the absolute freedom you have, i gues they wanna no rules in the economy. and they believe that it somehow will work.

[ArgueEverything]

there are 3 reasons i can think of that people are capitalists:

1) they are brought up in a capitalist environment and know nothing else. this applies to probably 90% of the population. and even if they have come across the ideas of marxism, they shrug it off after looking at what happened when the USSR, or cuba, after they adopted a marxist economy(supposedly, anyway). would u rather live in the US or the former USSR? yeah, i thought so...

2) capitalists themselves, that is, those who control the means of production and distribution (only a very small percentage of the population) enjoy a very high standard of living. why would they want to give it up? obviously, they, and their offspring, will remain capitalists.

3) ideological reasons, which freiheit alluded to. certain people are attracted to the idea of laissez faire, in the same way that others are attracted to anarchism.

in a way, albeit a very peculiar way, capitalists love freedom. the difference between their interpretation of freedom and ours is that they believe economic freedom is the crucial. ownership property is what makes a person truly free. marxists and anarchists on the other hand ALSO believe in freedom, only they believe there is no social equality without economic equality. therefore, according to leftists, equality and freedom in a capitalist society is more or less a contradiction.

[Son of Scargill]

Hmm!Live in the US or former USSR?It'd be the Trans-Siberian truck driving job for me.Give me a bloody great 6x6 Kamaz,thousands of miles of wasteland to plough through,and they could pay me in cheap vodka and black tobbaco.Death or Glory.

Yeah! I know it ain't normal,but who cares.

[El Commandante]

[/quote]

then join the peace corp...socialism has nothing to do with justice and freedom.
[/quote]

Well for me that is what I think socialism is about, what do you think it is based around?

[Jurhael]

Capitalists "love" freedom only when it suits them.

[Capitalist]

You become a Capitalist to make money.

Capital = Money for investment purposes.

Capitalism creates incentive (money) for people to contribute to society.

Capitalism creates a sphere of competition to contribute = new technology, innovation, better medicines, McDonald's Hamburgers, etc.

Capitalism creates jobs for workers and a better life for consumers and the capitalist (the investor).

The only time Capitalism becomes rotten:

1 - Slave Labor

2 - Unfair Competition (Mafia Control)

3 - Workers are prohibited from assembling to form unions.

4 - Pollution or harmful environmental effects

5- Very Addicting Products (Nicotine - Cigarettes)

6 - Child Labor

- There may be other examples, but these examples of unfair capitalism are few. The positives of Capitalism far outweigh the negatives.

This is a very complex question and requires a much more in depth answer - like me asking "Why become a Communist?"

[El Commandante]

Thanks for the answer Capitalist, it's good to know that you can see flaws in your beliefs, respect. I guess it is a very complex question, for each person it will be different, like other people's reasons for becoming a socialist or being left wing. Cheers.

[Elfinity]

<<5- Very Addicting Products (Nicotine - Cigarettes)>>

I was just wondering why you choose this one as a negative effect of capitalism??
Is it simply because the product is addictive, or something else?

My personal belief is that the only difference between tobacco and any other product is the massive taxes the government skims off tobacco. This doesnt particularly affect the tobacco company but instead the average smoker as the smoker pays more for the product. I see this as blatant government and multinational exploitation of the average person.

I dont however oppose it on grounds of addictiveness. Im speaking as an ex-smoker here...I choose to start smoking and as hard as it was I also choose to quit. I believe that we make our own choices in life and I really dont believe that is the responsibility of anyone else (so long as there's no targeted advertising encouraging people to start).
Also coffee is addictive, as can be alcohol.

Ultimately I see the way tobacco is dealt with as the negative aspect of capitalism and not particularly the product itself.

[pce]

the tobacco industry peretrated the biggest lies on the american people, and continues to do so. and the reason they get away with it is because of an infinite check book. they buy their way out of every court case. they outspend their opponents. and even when something is revealed to the people, like nicotine is in fact addictive, they've already hooked so many that it doesn't even matter. i hate the tobacco industry. if i didn't know any better, i'd wish tobacco was illegal - just to spite the industry.

[Elfinity]

Who doesnt know tobacco is addictive? When I started I knew tobacco was addictive...we're pretty much weaned knowing that fact nowadays. It's drummed into our heads...Do Not Start Smoking, It Is Addctive!!

Tobacco companies are exploitative for sure, but I also believe in personal responsibility. Anyone of a certain age who smokes needs to take responsibility for their choices. But on the other hand the tobacco companies are dishonest and that is a problem and just another example of multinational lies.

But...personally Im more opposed to companies like Nestle who give mothers in Third World Countries baby formula for free...until the mothers breast milk dries up....then they start charging for it. Then those mothers who cant afford the formula tend to use Nestle Sweetened Condensed Milk instead which has no nutritional value whatsoever.
That sort of exploitation worries me more than tobacco companies denying something we all know is a fact.

[pce]

i don't remember the correct date, i think it was in the early ninties, when the tobacco industries finally admitted that nicotine is addictive thanks largely to a man called jeffrey wigand. furthermore, they actually put chemicals in cigarretes to increase the addictiveness...that's ridiculous. there are other things that are constantly coming out that people just don't hear of.

[Freiheit]

capitalism is based on adam smith.
in his main work 'the wealth of nations' he has 3 hypothesis:

1. self-interest benefits society
2. the provit motive is a value
3. the government retards progress.

he also talked about the in 'invisible hand'. this magic power controls the economy better than any government.


anyway, the industrialization showed that he was wrong. today, every intelligent human being agrees that a certain level of government control over the economy is needed.

sorry, capitalist, but it is a fact that capitalism creates a class struggle. capitalism doesnt create jobs, everyone trys to have as less employees as possible.
and the the technology is absolute contra-productive. why do we need computers and tvs etc. if it was never invented, the world would be much better. technology is always prostituted and is bad.
not even 1 billion of the world's population live in idustrialized countries, the soviet union and south africa while the apartheid were part of it. the rest of the population lives in poverty (exept the rich upperclass). infact about 700 million ppl (eu, usa, ca, switzerland and norway) live in a high life standard, but even in this countries is poverty. in the usa for example are some ppl as poor as in africa and die because of hunger.

[CommieBastard]

I appear to have a dependancy on digestable goods...
and those bastards are exploiting that fact.
I also find that i have quite a need for transportation, a need for shelter and clothes, and these bastards are abusing my addiction in order to earn a profit for their own pockets.
BASTARDS SCUM EXPLOITATIVE SHITS, I SHALL BREAK FREE OF THEIR SHACKLES ONLY WHEN I DIE.

[MJM]

I remember reading a comment by the guy that used to be the winston man-cigarettes.
The story is some thing like this.
He was out doing a shoot for an advert and he was having a smoke, the top dogs were there talking.He asked them if they smoked, one of them replied-we leave that to the young,the poor, the black and the stupid.
What a great bunch of guys.

[allan73]

'But I can not understand what makes "become a devout capitalist. Does anybody know? Capitalist, as you are our resident right winger maybe you could tell us why you support a right wing form of government. "

to El Commandte; You know, you could read a book called "Das Kapital." Written by one K. Marx. It explains it pretty well.

[revolutionary spirit]

to answer the intial question i don't think anyone in the west becomes a capitalist,we're all born one really,a sence of patriotism is there when we grow up,i think u can either realise the system fr what it is,or just go along with it,or u may support it because of the dominance it gives

[Jurhael]

Hey, Frieheit, are you some sort of Luddite?

[El Commandante]

Quote: from pce on 1:17 am on Dec. 15, 2001
i don't remember the correct date, i think it was in the early ninties, when the tobacco industries finally admitted that nicotine is addictive thanks largely to a man called jeffrey wigand. furthermore, they actually put chemicals in cigarretes to increase the addictiveness...that's ridiculous. there are other things that are constantly coming out that people just don't hear of.


Mentioning the tobacco industry, this is a group of people that used to advertise the product as being good for you. A product that was meant to stop you from getting coughs and colds. I may well have, but you get cancer and heart disease instead. I have a particular hatred for the tobacco industry. These use and manipulate people when they are possible too naive or uninformed to know better and when they do realise they are addicted. Tobacco should have greater regulations on it, it disgusting what they manage to get away with.

[allan73]

Just because you are born in the west doesnt make you a capitalist. Even supporting capitalism doesnt make you one. A captialist is somebody who expropriates, steals, the labor of somebody else. There are a very few capitalists and many millions and millions of wage slaves. Now, in the U.S. currently the wage slaves tend to be well paid. But it doesnt change their relationship to the capitalist.

[Freiheit]

Quote: from Jurhael on 2:52 pm on Dec. 15, 2001
Hey, Frieheit, are you some sort of Luddite?


what is a Luddite?

[Elfinity]

<<Mentioning the tobacco industry, this is a group of people that used to advertise the product as being good for you. A product that was meant to stop you from getting coughs and colds. I may well have, but you get cancer and heart disease instead. I have a particular hatred for the tobacco industry. These use and manipulate people when they are possible too naive or uninformed to know better and when they do realise they are addicted. Tobacco should have greater regulations on it, it disgusting what they manage to get away with. >>

Yes the tobacco companies used to tell blantant and disgusting lies (in certain cases they probably still do). Yes, tobacco companies are just as bad as any other multinational overall. But I do not understand when people focus on the well known past evils of tobacco companies, while virtually ignoring what other multinationals are doing, more covertly I might add, RIGHT NOW.

We all know about Tobacco and the tobacco companies. The anti-smoking lobby groups make that information very public and very well known.

What isnt so well known is is the manipulation used, lies told, and outright exploitation carried out by other companies. My earlier points on Nestle and how they are virtually causing infants in developing companies to be sickly for life (or contributing to infant deaths) somehow mean so little next to the *****ing about tobacco companies when we already know it will harm us and when we smoke we make that choice. Those babies in South-east asia, etc, have no choice, their mothers dont know the consequences, etc. Sometimes I think we still dont care, whatever our politics, so long as it isnt happening to us:-(

Also Im wondering is this an issue against tobacco itself or the simply companies? Im not sure what angle people are coming from.
Also do people think that tobacco concerns should take precendence over the actions of other multinationals?

[MJM]

I don't like the corporations I do smoke myself(only very mildly).I tried growing my own once. That was some horrible tabacco.
All the big corps cause trouble in 3rd world countries don't forget the wars etc. that have been started over oil.
I suppose smoking is more tangible to most of us than children in the 3rd world, I'm sure we all do care.

[Jurhael]

"what is a Luddite?"

http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~mryder/itc_dat...ta/luddite.html (http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~mryder/itc_data/luddite.html)

"Luddite n 1: any opponent of technological progress 2: one of the 19th century English workman who destroyed labor-saving machinery that they thought would cause unemployment."

[Red Star]

From an economic stand point capitalism make sit easier to allocate resources. You either have enough money to buy something or you don't. With communism you have to start rationing and that requires thousands of goverment positions to oversee. Capitalism also lets the average person through hard work become a very rich person. Of course how they get rich is not always right. In the whole capitalism works fairly well but those people that fall through cracks usually dont get enough help to get back on their feet.

[Son of Scargill]

So capitalism lets an average person to become very rich,through hard work?Tell that to the cotton plantation workers,the South African diamond miners,sweatshop workers all over the world.These people work a lot harder than the majority in the western world,and yet their yearly wage would probably equate to 2 weeks of my wage.Please tell me how this is allowing them to become very rich.

(Edited by Son of Scargill at 7:49 am on Dec. 16, 2001)

[Kez]

Some1 said that capitalism causes happiness as there is a higher standard of living.

WTF
we are now part of the money rich, time poor society.
We have loads of money, but the average family in the uk has 1 day of meals 2gether, just 1 day. As opposed to 7 days in "less developed" nations.

In developing nations they have relatively less money, but have a better social life. When people fulfill their "needs" such as food, shelter, warmth, etc, they dont neccecerily need to fulfill their wants to be happy.

MONEY IS NOT EQUAL TO HAPPINESS.
FUCK money

comrade kamo

[Freiheit]

Quote: from Jurhael on 10:25 pm on Dec. 15, 2001
"what is a Luddite?"

http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~mryder/itc_dat...ta/luddite.html (http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~mryder/itc_data/luddite.html)

"Luddite n 1: any opponent of technological progress 2: one of the 19th century English workman who destroyed labor-saving machinery that they thought would cause unemployment."


kinda. i think some technology is very good: tools, the wheel etc.
but with all our technology are we happier the natives. no we are not. if we all would live in the rain forest, we would be happier. at least i would be. but i am born in the west. so now i need all this machines and technology to be happy.

[Elfinity]

<< I don't like the corporations I do smoke myself(only very mildly).I tried growing my own once. That was some horrible tabacco.
All the big corps cause trouble in 3rd world countries don't forget the wars etc. that have been started over oil.
I suppose smoking is more tangible to most of us than children in the 3rd world, I'm sure we all do care.>>

Ugh, I never tried growing my own, but I did get a taste of some homegrown stuff once or twice and it wasnt too nice. I eventually just got so sick of the constant raising of prices in the governments effort to control our consumption while benefiting also, I quit.

Anyway...
I suppose my post was a little rant:-) Largely because one of my big interests is the Third World and capitalist exploitation of those countries for Western benefit. It's bad enough when they exploit those within their own system, but I've always found it even worse when they exploit people who could never see any benefit.
I also notice that a lot of people just dont know about what the other multinationals get up to, simply because it's not made common knowledge. That's why I went on my little rant, because I wanted to address the something that doesnt commonly come up.
But I do see how tobacco is a more tangible reality, I was just kinda hoping to make the others a reality too.

[Freiheit]

i found something interesting in the book 'capitalism against socialism - economic policies of the u. s. & the ussr' by michael kronenwetter.

the combination of rapid technological advances with laissez-faire capitalism produced enomous benefits. it greatly increased what adam smith had written about, the wealth of the nations in which the industrial revolution took place.
such familiar products as textiles and pottery were suddenly turned out in quantities that had been unimaginable only decades before. not only were they more widely available, they were of better quality than ever before, and - thanks to the more efficient means of production and the suddendly abundant supply - they could be had at cheaper prices.
beyond that, a wide range of new products, from bicycles to precision tools, became available for the first time in history. both the production and consumption of goods soared throughout the industrialized countries.
the production of new and more plentiful products resulted in the search for new markest abroad as well as the search for the raw materials needed to feed the ever-growing industries. this, in turn, led to an icreased emphasis on colonial and imperialistic ventures in the rest of the world. while this had its dark side, it was argued that it not only enriched the european nations but speeded up the economic and cultural development of the colonized nations as well.
the dawn of industrial capitalism was, it seemed clear to its supporters, enormous success. it had increased everything: production, consumption, economic efficiency, the quality of manufactured goods. overall, it had increased the total wealth of mankind by an unprecedented amount.