George Zimmerman found not guilty

[Le Libérer]

BREAKING: George Zimmerman has been found not guilty in the death of Trayvon Martin.

— A Florida jury acquitted George Zimmerman of charges of second-degree murder and manslaughter Saturday night in a case that alternately fascinated and appalled large segments of a spellbound nation.

The saga of Zimmerman’s shooting of an unarmed African American teenager named Trayvon Martin whittled into the American vernacular, transforming “hoodie” sweatshirts into cultural markers, and provoking a painful reexamination of race relations in this country. Even the racial and ethnic identity of Zimmerman — he has a white father and a Hispanic mother — demanded a reordering of conventional paradigms. He was frequently referred to as a “white Hispanic,” a term that, for some, reflected a newly blended America and, for others, felt like an uncomfortable middle-ground.
Attorneys fought over Zimmerman’s fate in a heavily guarded and windowless fifth floor courtroom, calling more than 50 witnesses during three weeks of testimony before a sequestered six-woman jury. Afternoon thunderstorms sometimes shook the building, but the participants could see nary a drop of rain as they relived the night in February 2012 when Zimmerman killed Martin after spotting the 17-year-old walking through his gated community in the rain.
A parallel trial seemed to be taking place outside that cloistered space, with running debate on cable television and the Internet spurred by live-streaming coverage of the trial that effectively turned millions of Americans into quasi-jurors armed with every minute detail of the case. Others jammed into the small courtroom, lining up each morning for the coveted 24 seats allotted to the public.
Zimmerman, 29, watched with an unshakably neutral expression, sitting in his customary position at the defense table in ill-fitting blazers that an older friend bought for him to wear at the trial on sale at Men’s Wearhouse. Once, he’d dreamed of becoming a policeman or a prosecutor, and at times, he seemed to be observing the proceedings with the detachment of a moderately engaged student. Only at breaks — when the jury had left the courtroom — did he sometimes let his blank stare crack a bit. He would circle the defense table giving congratulatory handshakes to his attorneys before being escorted by a bodyguard and court security officers to a waiting room down the hall.
Behind Zimmerman, on the opposite side of the courtroom, sat Martin’s parents — Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton. The father, who Martin was visiting in Sanford on the night of his death, watched stoically, his emotions measured best by the slowing or accelerating speed of his jaw muscles as he grinded through packs of gum.
The images on the courtroom screen and those painted by the attorneys were sometimes too much to bear. Fulton, her hair pulled tightly into a bun on top of her head, stood and hurried out of the courtroom on Friday when Zimmerman’s defense attorney Mark O’Mara showed a photo of her 17-year-old son in death. She often turned away when close-ups of the bullet that pierced her son’s heart flickered onto the screen. She wiped tears during closing arguments.


Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/zimmerman-trial-jurors-request-clarification-on-manslaughter-instructions/2013/07/13/3a26dbbe-ec0c-11e2-aa9f-c03a72e2d342_story.html)


I am just speechless and heartbroken. Over and over everyday I walk out my front door, I see hatred and oppression here in the deep south. This is an endless state of affairs.

[VDS]

I'm from Florida and this doesn't surprise me the least unfortunately. I was talking to my brother today about it, that he was going to walk free. There was a black youth involved. Florida is notorious for being batshit crazy. It wasn't about to miss a golden opportunity.

[soso17]

Comrades-Street action in San Francisco tonight at 24th and Mission. 8pm

Reason for edit: typos

[human strike]

No justice, no peace.

[RedSonRising]

He should have gotten a reckless manslaughter charge. Fuck :(

[Le Libérer]

Don West saying his knock knock jokewas still funny???? That is what he has to say after all of this?

[Achronos]

Don West is a fucking egotistical asshole.

[Kalinin's Facial Hair]

So a black young man gets killed for nothing and the killer is found not guilty. Is that what happened? If so, riots are likely to happen, or something?

[Skyhilist]

What a fucking crock of shit this is.
Sorry, I'd like to be more analytical than that, but right now I'm just pissed off hearing about this shit right now.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

So a black young man gets killed for nothing and the killer is found not guilty. Is that what happened? If so, riots are likely to happen, or something?

Its not riots we have to worry about its that more kids, or people of any age, will be murdered by vigilantes with little or no restraint. Another notcch up in the instruments of state and extra-state repression.

[Zostrianos]

Predictably, the neonazis are celebrating :thumbdown:

[Bright Banana Beard]

This's really disturbing.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

"The fundamental danger of an acquittal is not more riots, it’s more George Zimmermans." - Jay Smooth..

From what people have told me it seems the jury wanted to vote for a charge of manslaughter but the judge deliberately made that difficult.Florida law has intense racism deep in its DNA. Compare this with the Marissa Anderson case where she fired warning shots to force her abusive husband to back away. She got 20 years.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57433184/fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots/

[Il Medico]

Disappointing, but honestly unsurprising. Prosecution didn't help by pushing for a verdict they knew they didn't have enough evidence for (should have gone for manslaughter).

Also, anyone know why there was only six people on the jury? That seemed strange. (the fact that they were 5/6ths white was par of course though)

[∞]

If you got some stacks put some stacks on his head.

[Le Libérer]

The statement from the Southern Poverty Law Center Source
(http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/news/press-statement-from-the-southern-poverty-law-center-in-response-to-verdict-in-sta)
"'They always get away.' These were the words George Zimmerman uttered as he followed and later shot Trayvon Martin -- words that reflected his belief that Trayvon was one of "them," the kind of person about to get away with something. How ironic these words sound now in light of the jury verdict acquitting Zimmerman.

Trayvon is dead, and Zimmerman is free.

Can we respect the jury verdict and still conclude that Zimmerman got away with killing Trayvon? I think so, even if we buy Zimmerman's story that Trayvon attacked him at some point. After all, who was responsible for initiating the tragic chain of events? Who was following whom? Who was carrying a gun? Who ignored the police urging that he stay in his car? Who thought that the other was one of 'them,' someone about to get a away with something?

The jury has spoken, and we can respect its conclusion that the state did not prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. But we cannot fail to speak out about the tragedy that occurred in Sanford, Florida, on the night of February 26, 2012.

Was race at the heart of it?

Ask yourself this question: If Zimmerman had seen a white youth walking in the rain that evening, would he have seen him as one of 'them,' someone about to get away with something?
We'll never really know.

Racial bias reverberates in our society like the primordial Big Bang. Some years ago, Rev. Jesse Jackson made the point in a dramatic way when he acknowledged that he feels a sense of relief when the footsteps he hears behind him in the dead of night turn out to belong to white feet. Social scientists who study our hidden biases make the same point in a more sober way with statistics that demonstrate that we are more likely to associate black people with negative words and imagery than we are white people. It's an association that devalues the humanity of black people -- particularly black youth like Trayvon Martin.

George Zimmerman probably saw race the night of February 26, 2012, like too many others would have. Had he not, Trayvon probably would be alive today.

The jury has spoken. Now, we must speak out against the systemic racism that still infects our society and distorts our perception of the world. And we must do something about it."

[Lucretia]

The decision is hardly surprising. There was not nearly enough evidence to even convict him of manslaughter.

[Le Libérer]

Aang, do not post comments from Stormfront again. This is a verbal warning, the next post with racist comments will get you an infraction.

[Bostana]

The American justice system.....at its best

[Synthesis-]

Surprised no manslaughter charges. What a disgrace. Civil rights charges may be filed. Imagine if this was someone you knew friends or family shit someone may be tempted to put a mark on him.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Aang, do not post comments from Stormfront again. This is a verbal warning, the next post with racist comments will get you an infraction.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to offend you or anyone. :( I didn't know it was against the forum rules to post about their reactions. I went to remove the comment I had posted in spoilers with the rest of my post but it had already been deleted. But I did post a picture from twitter of a rap from a known rapper who wrote about it that was really good and anti-racist but is now deleted but would that be against the rules?

[tachosomoza]

Disgusting. He'll be gone by August, the people aren't letting him walk with this.

[∞]

The decision is hardly surprising. There was not nearly enough evidence to even convict him of manslaughter.

Ummm someone got shot because someone wanted to take their law into their own hands. Am I missing something?

[Lucretia]

Disgusting. He'll be gone by August, the people aren't letting him walk with this.

Yay! The primary reason I come to revleft: to see a lynch mob mentality.

[Lucretia]

Ummm someone got shot because someone wanted to take their law into their own hands. Am I missing something?

Yeah, you are. Like about every single detail relating to the case besides the fact that Martin was shot and died. The reason no charges were initially brought (until the establishment vultures in the black bourgeoisie sank their claws into the case) is the very same reason Zimmerman wasn't convicted: there was no evidence contradicting Zimmerman's general account of the events, which were that he was attacked and was being brutally beaten when he decided to open fire for what he claimed were reasons of self-defense.

Is Zimmerman, who is actually hispanic, really a secret racist just looking to shoot black people? I have no idea. All I know is that the case was going to be an uphill battle from the start.

[Klaatu]

Defense lawyers claim that Martin attacked Zimmerman first. Since no witness can confirm this, and Martin cannot speak for himself, we only have Zimmerman's opinion to go on (plus his lawyers' imagination) Even assuming this were so, no one attacks someone for no reason... my theory is that Zimmerman must have yelled out a racial comment or something that started the whole thing. But we will never know.

I simply don't trust this guy Zimmerman. I get the impression that he is a pathological liar. And he got away with murder. I hope there will be a civil lawsuit charging him with wrongful death.

[Le Communiste]

Jesus, did you guys even listen to the tapes? See what happened? Even read most of the evidence? No fucking wonder he is "free". He wasn't a racist as fuck police officer, he was neighborhood watch.

Before you take a stance on everything, research it just a little bit.


Ban incoming. For the record, I'm sad the kid got shot, and I'm sad that an average joe gets his life fucked up because the media turned it into a spectacle.

[Le Communiste]

Disgusting. He'll be gone by August, the people aren't letting him walk with this.

Great, your just as good as Zimmerman. Taking the law into your own hands. Go ahead.


While your at it, sneak into a closed neighbor hood in the middle of the night, wear a hoodie, and beat the shit out of a neighborhood watch because you don't want to get caught being stoned

[Klaatu]

Jesus, did you guys even listen to the tapes? See what happened? Even read most of the evidence? No fucking wonder he is "free". He wasn't a racist as fuck police officer, he was neighborhood watch.

Before you take a stance on everything, research it just a little bit.


Ban incoming. For the record, I'm sad the kid got shot, and I'm sad that an average joe gets his life fucked up because the media turned it into a spectacle.

The fact is that Zimmerman was quite the fanatic about his "neighborhood watch duties," and he should have not walked himself into that situation while carrying a gun (AND disobeying police orders to stay away from Martin in the first place)

[Synthesis-]

Closet racists coming out tonight.....

[International_Solidarity]

:crying:
This is fucking bullshit.

[Lucretia]

Closet racists coming out tonight.....

Really? Where?

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Great, your just as good as Zimmerman. Taking the law into your own hands. Go ahead.


While your at it, sneak into a closed neighbor hood in the middle of the night, wear a hoodie, and beat the shit out of a neighborhood watch because you don't want to get caught being stoned

Nope, it is called class morality. It is not a matter of being good. We Communists are not, good, we are just as evil as the bourgeois. The difference being that our evil is directed at the capitalist rather than at the proletariat.

Likewise, we communists are on the side of the oppressed, not the oppressor. I don't care about the gun, only who it is aimed at.

[Bostana]

and I'm sad that an average joe gets his life fucked up because the media turned it into a spectacle.

A 30 year old man just shot a teenager because of racial profiling. Don't be sad for that piece of shit

[Lucretia]

Jesus, did you guys even listen to the tapes? See what happened? Even read most of the evidence? No fucking wonder he is "free". He wasn't a racist as fuck police officer, he was neighborhood watch.

Before you take a stance on everything, research it just a little bit.


Ban incoming. For the record, I'm sad the kid got shot, and I'm sad that an average joe gets his life fucked up because the media turned it into a spectacle.

To answer your question: no, they haven't. So they have taken the dominant narrative on the left about violence against racial minorities, which is about white-on-black violence (usually by the police), and have lazily tried to superimpose it on the Zimmerman case, even though it doesn't fit at all. Most people don't even seem to be aware of the fact that Zimmerman himself is a racial/ethnic minority.

In fairness to the people doing this, many of them are not in the US and haven't been subjected to the constant media coverage. But that's no excuse for calling the people who have been paying attention "racists."

[Lucretia]

A 30 year old man just shot a teenager because of racial profiling. Don't be sad for that piece of shit

What evidence do you have that Martin was "racially profiled"? And, assuming that there was profiling involved (which there is no evidence for), since when is murder or manslaughter an appropriate charge to apply to somebody guilty of profiling?

[Bostana]

Most people don't even seem to be aware of the fact that Zimmerman himself is a racial/ethnic minority.

And Hispanics can't be racist towards African-Americans?

What evidence do you have that Martin was "racially profiled"?
This question can't be solidly answered unless Zimmerman comes out and says "I started harassing the kid because he was Black." However we can look at the details. Trayvon, a teenager, was walking out holding a snickers bar. When Zimmerman started harassing him, Trayvon says 'Fuck off', Zimmerman gets violent, Trayvon fights back, Zimmerman shoots him. There is no doubt in my mind that Zimmerman started harassing Trayvon because he was black, because there was no doubt in my mind that there were white teenagers out there that Zimmerman had seen.
And it was just a coincidence that Trayvon was black right?


And, assuming that there was profiling involved (which there is no evidence for), since when is murder or manslaughter an appropriate charge to apply to somebody guilty of profiling?
Well considering Trayvon was killed in cold blood for it....Zimmerman should be charged with murder

[Klaatu]

The decision is hardly surprising. There was not nearly enough evidence to even convict him of manslaughter.

Manslaughter does not necessarily have to involve criminal intent. It can be the result of negligence. For example, if I drive a car drunk and kill someone, I can be found guilty of manslaughter. Zimmerman was negligent in his actions, but the jury had "reasonable doubt" about the case.

By the way, a not guilty verdict does not mean he is "innocent."

[Taters]

This thread will not go well.

How was there not enough evidence to convict him of manslaughter?

Edit: Removed Joker Meme. Please note, comical animations are not allowed in serious threads. Please refrain from posting them in forums except for non-poli and chit chat.

Verbal warning.

*My apologies, scary red text.

[Slippers]

Zimmerman is like myself in that he is a person of colour who benefits from white privilege because to most people he "passes" as white.

The case, and the support Zimmerman has is still a reflection of societies racial attitudes.

[Lucretia]

And Hispanics can't be racist towards African-Americans?

Of course they can. Just as "white" people can be racist toward hispanics. Is that the reason posters here are approvingly talking about "the people" dispensing their own justice? Hmmm?

The question is, what evidence is there that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin? He was an off-duty neighborhood watch guy who saw somebody who looked unfamiliar (Martin was a visitor, not a permanent resident of the community) walking casually - not rushing - and looking around behind a row of houses, not on the sidewalk or on the street, in the rain. This is suspicious behavior, independent of race, especially in light of the recent history of burglaries in the neighborhood.

Evidence of race does not surface at all until the police department dispatcher asked Zimmerman what the suspicious person looked like.

[Metacomet]

What evidence do you have that Martin was "racially profiled"? And, assuming that there was profiling involved (which there is no evidence for), since when is murder or manslaughter an appropriate charge to apply to somebody guilty of profiling?


Do you live in America?

Are you seriously asking when the profiling occured?

A white 17 year old walking down the street, is he a "thug" and all the other racist sh** coming out of old white people Facebook tonight?


I think 2nd degree murder was a stretch. Apparently manslaughter was as well, which shows one thing, if your gonna start a fight, make sure there isn't anyone else's story left.

Disgusting but predictable. Another Kangaroo court in the Gallant South.

The whole thing makes no sense.

Why would Trayvon "attack" the guy? Why did the screaming stop IMMEDIATELY when the shot was fired?

[Le Libérer]

What evidence do you have that Martin was "racially profiled"? And, assuming that there was profiling involved (which there is no evidence for), since when is murder or manslaughter an appropriate charge to apply to somebody guilty of profiling?
In the beginning of the 911 call he called him a coon. I would say that was an indicator.

Then there was profiling that he was a criminal based on the way he was dressed - profiling.
9OT7olbN5JI

[Os Cangaceiros]

Great, your just as good as Zimmerman. Taking the law into your own hands. Go ahead.


While your at it, sneak into a closed neighbor hood in the middle of the night, wear a hoodie, and beat the shit out of a neighborhood watch because you don't want to get caught being stoned

Martin had marijuana in his system (something which I don't find particularly relevant here, except maybe for the defense to portray him as some sort of lumpen hoodlum illegal drug user), but it's worth noting that Zimmerman supposedly had Adderall and Temazepam in his system. An amphetamine/benzodiazepine cocktail has been known to have a side effect of increased aggression in certain individuals.

One thing I will say though is that I don't think this is a case of a hardcore racist gunning down someone to maintain white supremacy or whatever. Zimmerman may have been a bigot but I doubt that racial hatred is what motivated him to assume his "position" in life. Also, based on what I've read about the incident and the few facts that can be discerned from the case, I've come to the conclusion that Zimmerman was ultimately responsible for the chain of events that led to Martin's death, but the prosecution was definitely reaching with 2nd degree murder, to put it mildly!

[∞]

Yeah, you are. Like about every single detail relating to the case besides the fact that Martin was shot and died. The reason no charges were initially brought (until the establishment vultures in the black bourgeoisie sank their claws into the case) is the very same reason Zimmerman wasn't convicted: there was no evidence contradicting Zimmerman's general account of the events, which were that he was attacked and was being brutally beaten when he decided to open fire for what he claimed were reasons of self-defense.

Is Zimmerman, who is actually hispanic, really a secret racist just looking to shoot black people? I have no idea. All I know is that the case was going to be an uphill battle from the start.

He was pursuing him when the cops told him not to because he looked suspicious. Think for one second why Travoyn attacked even if he attacked first. Zimmerman pursued him anyway and so he already broke his juristiction. Anything says can't be trusted very well and since the child died he at least deserves manslaughter even given the benefit of the doubt.

Good god guys its a pretty simple case, and under no circumstance does any evidence help the defense it more or less suits the prosecutor even very lightly.

[Le Communiste]

A 30 year old man just shot a teenager because of racial profiling. Don't be sad for that piece of shit

Did you listen to the 911 tapes? There was no racial profiling. Go listen to them right now.

[Bostana]

Evidence of race does not surface at all until the police department dispatcher asked Zimmerman what the suspicious person looked like.

I answered this in a previous post to your question, I am assuming you didn't see it:

What evidence do you have that Martin was "racially profiled"?
This question can't be solidly answered unless Zimmerman comes out and says "I started harassing the kid because he was Black." However we can look at the details. Trayvon, a teenager, was walking out holding a snickers bar. When Zimmerman started harassing him, Trayvon says 'Fuck off', Zimmerman gets violent, Trayvon fights back, Zimmerman shoots him. There is no doubt in my mind that Zimmerman started harassing Trayvon because he was black, because there was no doubt in my mind that there were white teenagers out there that Zimmerman had seen.
And it was just a coincidence that Trayvon was black right?


And, assuming that there was profiling involved (which there is no evidence for), since when is murder or manslaughter an appropriate charge to apply to somebody guilty of profiling?
Well considering Trayvon was killed in cold blood for it....Zimmerman should be charged with murder

[Lucretia]

In the beginning of the 911 call he called him a coon. I would say that was an indicator.

Then there was profiling that he was a criminal based on the way he was dressed - profiling.
9OT7olbN5JI

Except that the recording was bad quality because of the wind (which in the wintertime, creates something called "wind chill), and Zimmerman's explanation that he said "It's fucking cold" is at least as likely, if not moreso, in light of the fact thatvirtually nobody in the USA nowadays, especially under the age of 50, uses "coon" as a racial epithet.

[∞]

He called him a coon.

[Bostana]

Did you listen to the 911 tapes? There was no racial profiling. Go listen to them right now.
Ok


In the beginning of the 911 call he called him a coon. I would say that was an indicator.

Then there was profiling that he was a criminal based on the way he was dressed - profiling.
9OT7olbN5JI

[∞]

Yeah, you are. Like about every single detail relating to the case besides the fact that Martin was shot and died. The reason no charges were initially brought (until the establishment vultures in the black bourgeoisie sank their claws into the case) is the very same reason Zimmerman wasn't convicted: there was no evidence contradicting Zimmerman's general account of the events, which were that he was attacked and was being brutally beaten when he decided to open fire for what he claimed were reasons of self-defense.

Is Zimmerman, who is actually hispanic, really a secret racist just looking to shoot black people? I have no idea. All I know is that the case was going to be an uphill battle from the start.


Except that the recording was bad quality because of the wind (which in the wintertime, creates something called "wind chill), and Zimmerman's explanation that he said "It's fucking cold" is at least as likely, if not moreso, in light of the fact thatvirtually nobody in the USA nowadays, especially under the age of 50, uses "coon" as a racial epithet.

It doesn't get too cold in Florida. Why would the police need to know its cold? Really?

[∞]

in the USA nowadays, especially under the age of 50, uses "coon" as a racial epithet.

This is a really shitty assumption. I've heard this term be used by at least 20 edgy high schoolers. Is your entire frame of argument based on bad assumptions in favor of Zimmerman?

[Le Communiste]

Why would Trayvon "attack" the guy? Why did the screaming stop IMMEDIATELY when the shot was fired?

Have you ever shot someone? Didn't think so. Do you have any idea what kind of feeling it is to have shot someone? From your question, one can assume that if you did it

You:Stop! Stop! Stop!
You: shoot the person
Shot person: falls to ground limp
You: Stop! stop! stop!

See how irrelevant that is?

[Bostana]

Except that the recording was bad quality because of the wind (which in the wintertime, creates something called "wind chill), and Zimmerman's explanation that he said "It's fucking cold" is at least as likely, if not moreso, in light of the fact thatvirtually nobody in the USA nowadays, especially under the age of 50, uses "coon" as a racial epithet.

You can't be fucking serious. That doesn't even sound like he said cold

[Le Libérer]

Except that the recording was bad quality because of the wind (which in the wintertime, creates something called "wind chill), and Zimmerman's explanation that he said "It's fucking cold" is at least as likely, if not moreso, in light of the fact thatvirtually nobody in the USA nowadays, especially under the age of 50, uses "coon" as a racial epithet.
Except nothing. Here in the south coon has been and still is used as a racial slur. I'm starting to realize you are here just to antagonize.

[∞]

I mean really I'm calling the cops about something serious why would I be talking about the weather considering it was Florida around march?

[Lucretia]

Do you live in America?

Are you seriously asking when the profiling occured?

A white 17 year old walking down the street, is he a "thug" and all the other racist sh** coming out of old white people Facebook tonight?


I think 2nd degree murder was a stretch. Apparently manslaughter was as well, which shows one thing, if your gonna start a fight, make sure there isn't anyone else's story left.

Disgusting but predictable. Another Kangaroo court in the Gallant South.

The whole thing makes no sense.

Why would Trayvon "attack" the guy? Why did the screaming stop IMMEDIATELY when the shot was fired?

So the police department that initially refused to charge Zimmerman were racists. And the six-person jury, which included one black lady, who unanimously voted to acquit Zimmerman were all racist. And anybody here who doesn't jump on the kill-Zimmerman-now bandwagon, or raises doubts about the liberal narrative that Zimmerman was a week away from joining the KKK, are all obviously racist.

Sometimes people are followed for acting suspiciously because they are acting suspiciously. Do I know that's what happened here, and know for a fact that race did not enter Zimmerman's mind at all? Absolutely not. All I know is that there's no evidence to suggest that it did enter his mind.

And all of this talk about racial profiling is really a red herring. Even if Zimmerman was racially profiling Martin, that doesn't mean he was guilty of manslaughter. Because the manslaughter charge required evidence that Zimmerman fired on Martin when he did not have reason to believe he was not at risk of serious bodily harm. Not only is there no evidence of this, but the evidence in record actually shows that Zimmerman got quite a working over by Martin.

[∞]

I still can't understand this I'm already pretty upset at this and now a bunch so called socialists are claiming that the "black burgeoise" perpetuated a lie.

A black burgeoise? Are you guys really trying to play the reverse racism card?

This is some of the most reactionary jargon I've ever heard.

[Le Communiste]

In the beginning of the 911 call he called him a coon. I would say that was an indicator.

Then there was profiling that he was a criminal based on the way he was dressed - profiling.
9OT7olbN5JI
Here, lets do just a little reading

After the audio of the call was released, reports by CNN[345] and other news outlets alleged that Zimmerman had said "fucking coons" two minutes and twenty-one seconds (2:21) into the call. Two weeks later on April 4, 2012, CNN claimed that enhanced audio revealed that Zimmerman had said "fucking cold."[346] The following day, April 5, 2012, CNN's Martin Savidge reported that forensic audio expert Tom Owen claimed it was "fucking punks."[347] It is said to be "fucking punks" in the affidavit of probable cause, dated April 11, 2012.[31] Other reviewers of the call have offered alternate interpretations of what was said, some labeling it "unintelligible." According to the Associated Press, the alleged racial slur "fed growing outrage over the police department's initial decision not to arrest Zimmerman."

[Klaatu]

In my opinion, this is just as much about guns as anything else. That is, if there were better background checks on who can get their hands on a gun, I'll bet that Zimmerman would not have been allowed to own one, being the kook that he is.

And guess what? --- Trayvon Martin would be alive today, if that were the case.

[Lucretia]

Except nothing. Here in the south coon has been and still is used as a racial slur. I'm starting to realize you are here just to antagonize.

You seem to have issues reading what I am writing. Setting aside the bizarre insinuation that you live in the southern United States, I never said that coon is never used as a racial slur. I said that it is rarely used by people who are of Zimmerman's age. Even by people who are slightly older than he is. As somebody who DID spend most of his life growing up in the American South, I can tell you straight out that the only people I've heard use that language, in the unfortunately long time I had to live there, were old enough to be my grandparents.

[Le Libérer]

I still can't understand this I'm already pretty upset at this and now a bunch so called socialists are claiming that the "black burgeoise" perpetuated a lie.

A black burgeoise? Are you guys really trying to play the reverse racism card?

This is some of the most reactionary jargon I've ever heard.
Not "you guys", one guy. And its becoming annoying.

[∞]

So the police department that initially refused to charge Zimmerman were racists. And the six-person jury, which included one black lady, who unanimously voted to acquit Zimmerman were all racist. And anybody here who doesn't jump on the kill-Zimmerman-now bandwagon, or raises doubts about the liberal narrative that Zimmerman was a week away from joining the KKK, are all obviously racist.

Sometimes people are followed for acting suspiciously because they are acting suspiciously. Do I know that's what happened here, and know for a fact that race did not enter Zimmerman's mind at all? Absolutely not. All I know is that there's no evidence to suggest that it did enter his mind.

And all of this talk about racial profiling is really a red herring. Even if Zimmerman was racially profiling Martin, that doesn't mean he was guilty of manslaughter. Because the manslaughter charge required evidence that Zimmerman fired on Martin when he did not have reason to believe he was not at risk of serious bodily harm. Not only is there no evidence of this, but the evidence in record actually shows that Zimmerman got quite a working over by Martin.

I haven't even assumed the racial context of the events I have only looked at the anecdotal evidence and its pretty easy to piece together considering there is 200+lb man with a gun who killed a teenage he pursued beyond his jurisdiction when he was told not to.

[Bostana]

And all of this talk about racial profiling is really a red herring. Even if Zimmerman was racially profiling Martin, that doesn't mean he was guilty of manslaughter. Because the manslaughter charge required evidence that Zimmerman fired on Martin when he did not have reason to believe he was not at risk of serious bodily harm. Not only is there no evidence of this, but the evidence in record actually shows that Zimmerman got quite a working over by Martin.

Trayvon Martin had his life stopped short because some racist arrogant middle-aged wanna be cop decided he was going to be a fucking hero and shoot somebody in cold blood because he looked fucking suspicious

[Bostana]

I said that it is rarely used by people who are of Zimmerman's age.
Hahahaha :laugh::laugh::laugh:
Trust me, it is not "rarely" used by people around Zimmermans age

[∞]

Its simple.

He acted beyond his jurisdiction. This is against the law itself.

He pursued the teen.

The teen screamed there is heavy evidence of the use of the word coon.

The teen died.

Gee.

[Lucretia]

Trayvon Martin had his life stopped short because some racist arrogant middle-aged wanna be cop decided he was going to be a fucking hero and shoot somebody in cold blood because he looked fucking suspicious

You keep repeating this, but it's filled with all sorts of assumptions that the jury acknowledged was just not in evidence. There's no evidence that Zimmerman is a racist, that he acted on that particular evening with racist motivations, or that he shot somebody in cold blood for racist reasons rather than because he was trying to defend himself against a person who was beating the shit out of him.

Nobody here is arguing that this isn't a fucking tragedy. I am arguing against this knuckle-dragging mentality that says we must channel our extreme sadness by beating our chests and gathering together a lynch mob to teach that Zimmerman guy a lesson he'll never forget about violence.

[Lucretia]

Hahahaha :laugh::laugh::laugh:
Trust me, it is not "rarely" used by people around Zimmermans age

Yes, being that you claim to be from Michigan, I'm sure you know all about the frequency and choice of racial epithets in the South.

[Bostana]

rather than because he was trying to defend himself against a person who was beating the shit out of him.]

Some middle-aged man started following me and then when I run away he starts chasing me eventually grabs me and I would be the bad guy because I fought back?

[∞]

You keep repeating this, but it's filled with all sorts of assumptions that the jury acknowledged was just not in evidence. There's no evidence that Zimmerman is a racist, that he acted on that particular evening with racist motivations, or that he shot somebody in cold blood for racist reasons rather than because he was trying to defend himself against a person who was beating the shit out of him.

Nobody here is arguing that this isn't a fucking tragedy. I am arguing against this knuckle-dragging mentality that says we must channel our extreme sadness by beating our chests and gathering together a lynch mob to teach that Zimmerman guy a lesson he'll never forget about violence.

You said he shouldn't be charged with man-slaughter even though the lack of evidence or anecdotes so to say have only prove him out of 2nd degree murder.

[Bostana]

Yes, being that you claim to be from Michigan, I'm sure you know all about the frequency and choice of racial epithets in the South.

Yes because my parents are from the south Comrade. I have family whom I visit there in the summer The word Coon is alive and well in the south

[Le Communiste]

Yes, being that you claim to be from Michigan, I'm sure you know all about the frequency and choice of racial epithets in the South.

Have you been to Detroit? My grandfather was police in Livonia during the 60's.

Do you know about the frequency and choice of racial epithets in the south?

[Lucretia]

Some middle-aged man started following me and then when I run away he starts chasing me eventually grabs me and I would be the bad guy because I fought back?

Except there's no evidence that Zimmerman grabbed anybody. You keep repeating these statements as though they have any evidentiary basis.

[Lucretia]

You said he shouldn't be charged with man-slaughter even though the lack of evidence or anecdotes so to say have only prove him out of 2nd degree murder.

I said that there was not enough evidence to get a prosecution on manslaughter. Turns out the jury, including a black woman, agreed with me. Why don't you call for their heads next, after you finish tracking down Zimmerman? I also said that the reason the prosecution went forward after the initial decision not to charge Zimmerman was the result of the intense political scrutiny being thrown on the case because of the usual suspects -- the Sharptons, Jesse Jacksons, etc., who have made a career of publicizing race-related incidents, whether rightly or wrongly, to increase their influence in the liberal establishment that they then try to draw black people to. Is anybody actually disputing the motivations behind the reversal of deciding to charge Zimmerman?

[#FF0000]

I said that there was not enough evidence to get a prosecution on manslaughter. Turns out the jury, including a black woman, agreed with me. Why don't you call for their heads next, after you finish tracking down Zimmerman?

You didn't even follow the trial you stupid motherfucker. The juror you're talking about was hispanic you literal human garbage.

And yeah, there was evidence for manslaughter -- the fact that Zimmerman ever got out of his car to engage Trayvon Martin is negligence that lead to a situation where a gun was fired and a person was killed. Zimmerman did the thing they tell you exactly not to do when you take your classes for concealed carry permits. I know because I have one you stupid fuck.

god. eat shit and die for real.

[Bostana]

Except there's no evidence that Zimmerman grabbed anybody. You keep repeating these statements as though they have any evidentiary basis.

You're right. Trayvon walked up the the poor 30 year old man and just started beating the shit out of him. Make sense if you don't think about it

[#FF0000]

You're right. Trayvon walked up the the poor 30 year old man and just started beating the shit out of him. Make sense if you don't think about it

After he jumped out of the bushes that didn't exist (the police said "this didn't change the overall theme of Zimmerman's testimony, though".

But hey, a couple rich black dudes talked about a thing, so that means Zimmerman's a proletarian hero.

[human strike]

Do the accusations made by two women against Zimmerman that he is an abusive rapist piece of shit count for nothing? Even if you think that he was somehow justified in shooting an unarmed boy to death, the man is the worst kind of scum.

[Fourth Internationalist]

You didn't even follow the trial you stupid motherfucker. The juror you're talking about was hispanic you literal human garbage.

And yeah, there was evidence for manslaughter -- the fact that Zimmerman ever got out of his car to engage Trayvon Martin is negligence that lead to a situation where a gun was fired and a person was killed. Zimmerman did the thing they tell you exactly not to do when you take your classes for concealed carry permits. I know because I have one you stupid fuck.

god. eat shit and die for real.

You can disagree with him (I do as well) but aren't some of your words just a bit too harsh?

[Le Libérer]

Fuck off, Lucretia
Please find another way to communicate your disgust.

Lucretia, please stop diverting this thread. I'm about a minute away from spitting your posts out of it. Your bringing question to every single post made here which I consider trolling.

If you don't know the details of the case, then go read up, but you have brought several things into question (such as the use of the word coon) that are uninformed and are being willfully combative. So stop.

[Lucretia]

You didn't even follow the trial you stupid motherfucker. The juror you're talking about was hispanic you literal human garbage.

And yeah, there was evidence for manslaughter -- the fact that Zimmerman ever got out of his car to engage Trayvon Martin is negligence that lead to a situation where a gun was fired and a person was killed. Zimmerman did the thing they tell you exactly not to do when you take your classes for concealed carry permits. I know because I have one you stupid fuck.

god. eat shit and die for real.

The juror we were both talking about was described early on as being "black or hispanic." But yes, you are correct that she has now been identified as "hispanic" and NOT black. So I guess that seals the deal now: Zimmerman was definitely racist, and the only reason he was found not guilty was that a racist jury ignored all the evidence.

[Lucretia]

Please find another way to communicate your disgust.

Lucretia, please stop diverting this thread. I'm about a minute away from spitting your posts out of it. Your bringing question to every single post made here which I consider trolling.

If you don't know the details of the case, then go read up, but you have brought several things into question (such as the use of the word coon) that are uninformed and are being willfully combative. So stop.

I'm sorry, but what? Is this thread for discussing the verdict in the Zimmerman case? Because the title seems to indicate that it is. Or are you trying to find technical-sounding reasons to try to remove my posts because, as you said, they "annoy" you? The point that use of the word "coon" by Zimmerman is in doubt is not "uninformed." In fact, anybody who HAS followed the case knows that this is one of the more serious points of contention.

[#FF0000]

The juror we were both talking about was described early on as being "black or hispanic." But yes, you are correct that she has now been identified as "hispanic" and NOT black. So I guess that seals the deal now: Zimmerman was definitely racist, and the only reason he was found not guilty was that a racist jury ignored all the evidence.

Yeah, actually, that is the case, because it is clearly manslaughter at least. If it isn't, then it means I can stalk people until they attack me, and then kill them and walk away from it.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Fuck you.

I'm a minor so that would be illegal. Sorry. :)

[Fourth Internationalist]

While I know Zimmerman was facing manslaughter, wasn't he also facing 2nd degree murder? What's the difference? (I'm not familiar with law much)

[Lucretia]

Yeah, actually, that is the case, because it is clearly manslaughter at least. If it isn't, then it means I can stalk people until they attack me, and then kill them and walk away from it.

It's too bad that the state of Florida didn't have your brilliant legal mind working on the case.

[Taters]

While I know Zimmerman was facing manslaughter, wasn't he also facing 2nd degree murder? What's the difference? (I'm not familiar with law much)

2nd degree murder - murder that is not premeditated

manslaughter - death due to negligence

[#FF0000]

It's too bad that the state of Florida didn't have your brilliant legal mind working on the case.

I think it's really, really cute that a socialist is appealing to the authority of the Florida judicial system while saying we've all been duped by black bougie Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson for caring that an unarmed teenager got killed.

After all, it's not as if the American judicial system in general has been fucking black people over in particular since 1776.

How long does one have to microwave their skull to see things so backwards?

[Le Libérer]

I'm sorry, but what? Is this thread for discussing the verdict in the Zimmerman case? Because the title seems to indicate that it is. Or are you trying to find technical-sounding reasons to try to remove my posts because, as you said, they "annoy" you? The point that use of the word "coon" by Zimmerman is in doubt is not "uninformed." In fact, anybody who HAS followed the case knows that this is one of the more serious points of contention.
I will remove anything from this thread that I find contentious, which is most of your posts. Please stop trolling this thread. Its the last time I am going to ask nicely. I can remove your posts, or just infract you or both. It makes no difference to me.

Your involvement so far has done nothing but lower the quality of discussion. I doubt anyone will argue with my decision. Last call.

[Le Communiste]

How long does one have to microwave their skull to see things so backwards?

Yo, G, Look into a mirror

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

All this talk of whether or not Zimmerman is "racist" or not seems to be ignoring the obvious fact that modern racism is often not something which people consciously believe. Zimmerman could easily have racially profiled Trayvon Martin without once actually thinking to himself "look at this dangerous black kid". He could have looked at young Mr Martin and seen a gangster, thug, or robber, because he subconsciously associated those kinds of features with criminals due to the values of our society.

[Le Communiste]

I will remove anything from this thread that I find contentious, which is most of your posts. Please stop trolling this thread. Its the last time I am going to ask nicely. I can remove your posts, or just infract you or both. It makes no difference to me.

Your involvement so far has done nothing but lower the quality of discussion. I doubt anyone will argue with my decision. Last call.

Yet #FF0000 gets to tell someone to go kill themselves and for someone to go fuck themselves. But just keep looking at Lucreita.

[#FF0000]

Yo, G, Look into a mirror

Yo, listen.

It's so frustrating to have to say the same things over and over again here.

Zimmerman is certainly guilty of manslaughter. Murder 2 might have been a stretch (I actually thought the prosecution put on a great case for it, though), but the fact that Zimmerman stepped out of his car with a gun on his person and created a situation where a person was killed makes it cut and dried. He knew better. He should've known better.

It really is just that simple.

And then that's without going into the other issues around this -- the police not looking into the case, the fact that Stand Your Ground laws lead directly to more white people getting away with shooting black victims, etc. etc.

[Lucretia]

I think it's really, really cute that a socialist is appealing to the authority of the Florida judicial system while saying we've all been duped by black bougie Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson for caring that an unarmed teenager got killed.

After all, it's not as if the American judicial system in general has been fucking black people over in particular since 1776.

How long does one have to microwave their skull to see things so backwards?

Um, what? We're discussing whether, according to the laws of Florida, there is enough evidence to successfully convict Zimmerman. So it's a little strange that you fault me for citing the "authority" of the Florida laws. What "authority" am I supposed to cite in discussing whether Zimmerman was going to be, of should have been, convicted under Florida state law? Russia's laws cirica 1923? So far the only argument I've heard you make that there was enough evidence was that Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin, and that you think this rose to the level of criminal menacing (or in common parlance, "stalking"). How you think that Zimmerman should be convicted of manslaughter because of his guilt in stalking is not clear from your, erm, "legal brief."

The point about Sharpton, etc. was made about a related issue: that they were instrumental in building the political pressure that led the state of Florida to reverse its earlier decision not to charge Zimmerman in the case.

Another thing I want to make clear: I have NOT stated that Zimmerman isn't racist. I have NOT stated that the killing of Martin was justified self-defense. I have only characterized the EVIDENCE in the case, including the highly questionable description of the statement Zimmerman made in which he appears to say "cold" (at the VERY moment when the audio is being highly obscured by a wind gust, which incidentally makes cold conditions even colder), but could also plausibly be interpreted as saying a racial slur that is used far less commonly than other racial slurs, particularly by people of his age. Zimmerman has claimed, in a highly publicized statement, that he said "cold," and on that issue I think his version definitely sounds more likely.

[Le Communiste]

All this talk of whether or not Zimmerman is "racist" or not seems to be ignoring the obvious fact that modern racism is often not something which people consciously believe. Zimmerman could easily have racially profiled Trayvon Martin without once actually thinking to himself "look at this dangerous black kid". He could have looked at young Mr Martin and seen a gangster, thug, or robber, because he subconsciously associated those kinds of features with criminals due to the values of our society.
Or he could have seen a teen in the middle of the night walking around for no reason.

[#FF0000]

Or he could have seen a teen in the middle of the night walking around for no reason.

I think you have to be a little obtuse to think that white teens are regarded as suspicious as often as black teens are. I mean, obviously we can't say for sure if Zimmerman was racist (he probably was, though)

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Or he could have seen a teen in the middle of the night walking around for no reason.

As a white person who has walked in the middle of the night a lot in bourgie neighborhoods for "no reason" back when I was a teenager I can attest to the fact that I never once got followed, harassed or stalked by the neighborhood watch, the cops, or any other real or fake authority figure.

[Le Communiste]

Yo, listen.

It's so frustrating to have to say the same things over and over again here.

Zimmerman is certainly guilty of manslaughter. Murder 2 might have been a stretch (I actually thought the prosecution put on a great case for it, though), but the fact that Zimmerman stepped out of his car with a gun on his person and created a situation where a person was killed makes it cut and dried. He knew better. He should've known better.

It really is just that simple.

And then that's without going into the other issues around this -- the police not looking into the case, the fact that Stand Your Ground laws lead directly to more white people getting away with shooting black victims, etc. etc.

Quote me to where I don't agree with you.

He should be guilty of man slaughter. A wounding shot, assuming his story is true, should have been enough for the situation. He went overkill. But I don't know, I wasn't there

Although, considering your were there, was it necessary?

In all honesty the shit he is gonna get from the public is much worse than any prison sentence for manslaughter.

[∞]

Um, what? We're discussing whether, according to the laws of Florida, there is enough evidence to successfully convict Zimmerman. So it's a little strange that you fault me for citing the "authority" of the Florida laws. What "authority" am I supposed to cite in discussing whether Zimmerman was going to be, of should have been, convicted under Florida state law? Russia's laws cirica 1923? So far the only argument I've heard you make that there was enough evidence was that Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin, and that you think this rose to the level of criminal menacing (or in common parlance, "stalking"). How you think that Zimmerman should be convicted of manslaughter because of his guilt in stalking is not clear from your, erm, "legal brief."

The point about Sharpton, etc. was made about a related issue: that they were instrumental in building the political pressure that led the state of Florida to reverse its earlier decision not to charge Zimmerman in the case.

Another thing I want to make clear: I have NOT stated that Zimmerman isn't racist. I have NOT stated that the killing of Martin was justified self-defense. I have only characterized the EVIDENCE in the case, including the highly questionable description of the statement Zimmerman made in which he appears to say "cold" (at the VERY moment when the audio is being highly obscured by a wind gust, which incidentally makes cold conditions even colder), but could also plausibly be interpreted as saying a racial slur that is used far less commonly than other racial slurs, particularly by people of his age. Zimmerman has claimed, in a highly publicized statement, that he said "cold," and on that issue I think his version definitely sounds more likely.

But you haven't not in the least bit. You given us some shotty stuff to go by a non-2nd degree murder verdict. You have now missed the point 7 times.

[#FF0000]

Although, considering your were there, was it necessary?

I didn't have to be there. He stepped out of his car. No one contests this. Everything that happened after that is his responsibility.


In all honesty the shit he is gonna get from the public is much worse than any prison sentence for manslaughter.

Good.

[L.A.P.]

I live in South Florida where gated communities like the one Martin was shot in make up a huge portion of the residential areas, and I think a lot of this awful situation has to do with the insanely strict (almost militant) property laws in Florida.

Wearing rolled-up khaki pants with a sweater (the kid was not wearing some stereotypically urban baggy 'hoodie' like some pundits make it seem) walking down a neighborhood alone is only considered odd or suspicious if you're a typical anti-social Floridian prick. I tried smoking in a gated community I didn't live in with friends once, and by the time we were walking back the neighboorhood watch pulled right up and started freaking out. Luckily they were just some really rude and aggressive old ladies, but it could have just as easily been some aggressive asshole guy.

The whole notion that Trayvon Martin appeared to be someone who did not live in the closed-off community is what is supposed to give Zimmerman legitimacy to have assumed Martin to be a "suspicious person" of sorts. That line of reasoning shouldn't be acceptable, but it's acceptable in Florida because you're literally not allowed to just go in those communities without approval (typing the code in through the gate, checking in with the security guard at the gate, and such).

That shouldn't be acceptable to anyone, especially a communist. poor fucking kid made the incredibly risky decision to smoke some pot in a community he didn't live in, and just so happen to get some speed-head rambo chasing after him. He probably didn't know much better if he's used to living in Miami, though. Getting shot by some paranoid guy with no life is exactly why I don't try smoking in public areas in Florida like I would in Upstate New York or some other place that isn't filled with people out to get each other.

This place sucks.

[Le Communiste]

I think you have to be a little obtuse to think that white teens are regarded as suspicious as often as black teens are. I mean, obviously we can't say for sure if Zimmerman was racist (he probably was, though)

Another thing. Very true. If I was neighborhood watch, I would have probably been suspicious in a closed neighborhood. He probably was though. I'm just saying it didn't have as much to do with it as you think


As a white person who has walked in the middle of the night a lot in bourgie neighborhoods for "no reason" back when I was a teenager I can attest to the fact that I never once got followed, harassed or stalked by the neighborhood watch, the cops, or any other real or fake authority figure.

Good for you, but I believe you are over playing the relevance on this

[Le Libérer]

This article really hits the pulse on why this case was about race. Racism is institutionalized to such a strong degree in the south. Interesting read and really addresses the race question.

A jury has found George Zimmerman not guilty of all charges in connection to death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. But while the verdict came as a surprise to some people, it makes perfect sense to others. This verdict is a crystal-clear illustration of the way white supremacy operates in America.
Throughout the trial, the media repeatedly referred to an “all-woman jury” in that Seminole County courtroom, adding that most of them were mothers. That is true—but so is that five of the six jurors were white, and that is profoundly significant for cases like this one. We also know that the lone juror of color was seen apparently wiping a tear during the prosecution’s rebuttal yesterday. But that tear didn’t ultimately convince her or the white people on that jury that Zimmerman was guilty of anything. Not guilty. Not after stalking, shooting and killing a black child, a child that the defense insultingly argued was “armed with concrete (http://colorlines.com/archives/2013/07/zimmerman_defense_trayvon_armed_himself_with_concr ete.html).”
In the last few days, Latinos in particular have spoken up again about Zimmerman’s race, and the “white Hispanic” label in particular (http://www.latinorebels.com/2012/03/29/the-white-hispanic-label-yes-people-racism-is-a-latino-thing-too/), largely responding to social media users and mass media pundits who employed the term. Watching Zimmerman in the defense seat, his sister in the courtroom, and his mother on the stand, one can’t deny the skin color that informs their experience. They are not white. Yet Zimmerman’s apparent ideology—one that is suspicious of black men in his neighborhood, the “assholes who always get away—” is one that adheres to white supremacy. It was replicated in the courtroom by his defense, whose team tore away at Rachel Jeantel, questioning the young woman as if she was taking a Jim Crow–era literacy test. A defense that, during closing, cited slave-owning rapist Thomas Jefferson, played an animation for the jury (http://www.thenation.com/blog/175228/animating-black-bodies) based on erroneous assumptions, made racially coded accusations about Trayvon Martin emerging “out of the darkness,” and had the audacity to compare the case of the killing of an unarmed black teenager to siblings arguing over which one stole a cookie.
When Zimmerman was acquitted today, it wasn’t because he’s a so-called white Hispanic. He’s not. It’s because he abides by the logic of white supremacy, and was supported by a defense team—and a swath of society—that supports the lingering idea that some black men must occasionally be killed with impunity in order to keep society-at-large safe.
Media on the left, right and center have been fanning the flames of fear-mongering (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/46979745/vp/52467630#52467630), speculating that people—and black people especially—will take to the streets. That fear-mongering represents a deep white anxiety about black bodies on the streets, and echoes Zimmerman’s fears: that black bodies on the street pose a public threat. But the real violence in those speculations, regardless of whether they prove to be true, is that it silences black anxiety. The anxiety that black men feel every time they walk outside the door—and the anxiety their loved ones feel for them as well. That white anxiety serves to conceal the real public threat: that a black man is killed every twenty-eight hours by a cop or vigilante (http://mxgm.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/07_24_Report_all_rev_protected.pdf).
People will take to the streets, and with good reason. They’ll be there because they know that, yes, some people do always get away—and it tends to be those strapped with guns and the logic of white supremacy at their side.


Read more: White Supremacy Acquits George Zimmerman | The Nation (http://www.thenation.com/blog/175260/white-supremacy-acquits-george-zimmerman#ixzz2Yzsk8pSl) http://www.thenation.com/blog/175260/white-supremacy-acquits-george-zimmerman#ixzz2Yzsk8pSl




And of course there are those who were sitting on their front porch just waiting for "them" to come to their neighborhood so they could do away with one more thug.

Comments I actually saw from my dear neighbors

*Maybe we should riot and burn down the slums these people breed and exist in if this man is not found innocent as the facts and truth show!

*It'll be fine whatever the verdict is... It won't change the price of groceries where I shop... And one less dope smoking thug in the world. Nuff said.

It is ALL about race.

[connoros]

I was plenty shocked to find that Zimmerman won't even be convicted of manslaughter. All that's needed in this country for your death to be judicially sanctioned is for you to be found guilty of being Black at nighttime and having smoked marijuana at some point in the last few days.

[∞]

I live in South Florida where gated communities like the one Martin was shot in make up a huge portion of the residential areas, and I think a lot of this awful situation has to do with the insanely strict (almost militant) property laws in Florida.

Wearing rolled-up khaki pants with a sweater (the kid was not wearing some stereotypically urban baggy 'hoodie' like some pundits make it seem) walking down a neighborhood alone is only considered odd or suspicious if you're a typical anti-social Floridian prick. I tried smoking in a gated community I didn't live in with friends once, and by the time we were walking back the neighboorhood watch pulled right up and started freaking out. Luckily they were just some really rude and aggressive old ladies, but it could have just as easily been some aggressive asshole guy.

The whole notion that Trayvon Martin appeared to be someone who did not live in the closed-off community is what is supposed to give Zimmerman legitimacy to have assumed Martin to be a "suspicious person" of sorts. That line of reasoning shouldn't be acceptable, but it's acceptable in Florida because you're literally not allowed to just go in those communities without approval (typing the code in through the gate, checking in with the security guard at the gate, and such).

That shouldn't be acceptable to anyone, especially a communist. poor fucking kid made the incredibly risky decision to smoke some pot in a community he didn't live in, and just so happen to get some speed-head rambo chasing after him. He probably didn't know much better if he's used to living in Miami, though. Getting shot by some paranoid guy with no life is exactly why I don't try smoking in public areas in Florida like I would in Upstate New York or some other place that isn't filled with people out to get each other.

This place sucks.

sometimes I'm so glad I live in "the hood" where I can smoke weed outside my apartment without a care in the world.

[blake 3:17]

Zimmerman and the hunting of Black Folks
POSTED ON 14 JULY, 2013 · 1 COMMENT
I received the news when i was getting ready to eat.

I was prepared, intellectually, for a not-guilty verdict. I was not ready in my gut.

As a radical i am quite aware of the injustices that regularly and historically have happened to people of color and to the poor. I am aware of how the system regularly justifies the murder of black people.

Yet i am nothing but sickened. And sitting here listening to these so-called defense attorneys gloat over their victory and place the blame for Trayvon Martin’s death on Trayvon is actually more than i can take.

This verdict is a verdict in favor of white fear. We should all be clear about that. This is a verdict that says that white people have every right to fear any and every black person and, if the law permits it, to act upon such fear. I do not care whether Zimmerman is part Latino, he acted as a white man and that is certainly how he will be remembered. Zimmerman looked at Trayvon through the eyes of a white man and assumed danger when no danger existed.

I just heard the attorneys asked what would have happened had the roles been reversed and one of the defense attorneys suggested that this would have never gone to trial and that this trial was manufactured by civil rights advocates. Well, i will give you a very different answer. Were an African American to shoot and kill a white youth who s/he believed was a threat there is little question but that such a person would be found guilty of something, assuming that they were not first lynched. The right of self-defense is not a right that Black people have ever had respected by white authorities, but when it is whites, or people acting as white, who claim self-defense against Blacks, any use of force is considered acceptable because, after all, Black people are scary people.

Once again we are reminded that there are zones that we cannot safely enter.

http://billfletcherjr.com/2013/zimmerman-and-the-hunting-of-black-folks/

[Lucretia]

But you haven't not in the least bit. You given us some shotty stuff to go by a non-2nd degree murder verdict. You have now missed the point 7 times.

I think you mean "shoddy stuff." Anyway, I have explained what the manslaughter verdict would have required (namely the notion that Zimmerman, firing his weapon during an intense struggle with somebody, was NOT acting out of fear of serious bodily harm -- the issue of lethal vs. non-lethal force is irrelevant when that force is claimed to be used in self-defense), and why I don't think the evidence bears out a version of the events that differs from Zimmerman's.

[L.A.P.]

sometimes I'm so glad I live in "the hood" where I can smoke weed outside my apartment without a care in the world.

honestly, I think people in Florida are like one of the few people in the United States who still freak out when they see someone smoking a joint or bowl in public

[blake 3:17]

Lucretia -- please do back off.

[∞]

I live in South Florida where gated communities like the one Martin was shot in make up a huge portion of the residential areas, and I think a lot of this awful situation has to do with the insanely strict (almost militant) property laws in Florida.

Wearing rolled-up khaki pants with a sweater (the kid was not wearing some stereotypically urban baggy 'hoodie' like some pundits make it seem) walking down a neighborhood alone is only considered odd or suspicious if you're a typical anti-social Floridian prick. I tried smoking in a gated community I didn't live in with friends once, and by the time we were walking back the neighboorhood watch pulled right up and started freaking out. Luckily they were just some really rude and aggressive old ladies, but it could have just as easily been some aggressive asshole guy.

The whole notion that Trayvon Martin appeared to be someone who did not live in the closed-off community is what is supposed to give Zimmerman legitimacy to have assumed Martin to be a "suspicious person" of sorts. That line of reasoning shouldn't be acceptable, but it's acceptable in Florida because you're literally not allowed to just go in those communities without approval (typing the code in through the gate, checking in with the security guard at the gate, and such).

That shouldn't be acceptable to anyone, especially a communist. poor fucking kid made the incredibly risky decision to smoke some pot in a community he didn't live in, and just so happen to get some speed-head rambo chasing after him. He probably didn't know much better if he's used to living in Miami, though. Getting shot by some paranoid guy with no life is exactly why I don't try smoking in public areas in Florida like I would in Upstate New York or some other place that isn't filled with people out to get each other.

This place sucks.


I think you mean "shoddy stuff." Anyway, I have explained what the manslaughter verdict would have required (namely the notion that Zimmerman, firing his weapon during an intense struggle with somebody, was NOT acting out of fear of serious bodily harm -- the issue of lethal vs. non-lethal force is irrelevant when that force is claimed to be used in self-defense), and why I don't think the evidence bears out a version of the events that differs from Zimmerman's.

Let me say this AGAIN.

HE ACTED BEYOND HIS JURIS-DICTION WHEN HE WAS TOLD NOT TO.

THEREFORE IF SOMEONE DIES AT HIS HANDS THAT IS REASON ENOUGH FOR MANSLAUGHTER.

[Lucretia]

Let me say this AGAIN.

HE ACTED BEYOND HIS JURIS-DICTION WHEN HE WAS TOLD NOT TO.

THEREFORE IF SOMEONE DIES AT HIS HANDS THAT IS REASON ENOUGH FOR MANSLAUGHTER.

You are using legal sounding language when you're really trying to make a point about an ethical position you have. If I see a homeless old white dude pissing in a trashcan in my front yard, and I call the police, and they tell me not to follow him, but I follow him anyway, even after he has left my property, because there's been a spate of pissing old white guys urinating in their hobo-cans on people's front yards, that DOES NOT give the homeless guy a legal carte blanche to attack me. Even if it were "stalking," which it actually, legally speaking, isn't, that STILL doesn't give him the legal right to attack me. Nor does my following him mean that I have forfeited a legal right to self-defense if he is beating me mercilessly against the concrete and punching me in an attack he initiated.

[Igor]

You are using legal sounding language when you're really trying to make a point about an ethical position you have. If I see a homeless old white dude pissing in a trashcan in my front yard, and I call the police, and they tell me not to follow him, but I follow him anyway, even after he has left my property, because there's been a spate of pissing old white guys urinating in their hobo-cans on people's front yards, that DOES NOT give the homeless guy a legal carte blanche to attack me. Even if it were "stalking," which it actually, legally speaking, isn't, that STILL doesn't give him the legal right to attack me. Nor does me following him, if he is beating me mercilessly against the concrete and punching me in an attack he initiated, that I have forfeited a legal right to self-defense.

hooly shit

[#FF0000]

You are using legal sounding language when you're really trying to make a point about an ethical position you have. If I see a homeless old white dude pissing in a trashcan in my front yard, and I call the police, and they tell me not to follow him, but I follow him anyway, even after he has left my property, because there's been a spate of pissing old white guys urinating in their hobo-cans on people's front yards, that DOES NOT give the homeless guy a legal carte blanche to attack me. Even if it were "stalking," which it actually, legally speaking, isn't, that STILL doesn't give him the legal right to attack me. Nor does me following him, if he is beating me mercilessly against the concrete and punching me in an attack he initiated, that I have forfeited a legal right to self-defense.

Yo this analogy sucks though because that dude's doing something illegal, white Trayvon Martin was just walking while black. Also, if someone's following me when I'm talking in a neighborhood I'm not familiar with, I'm going to be on edge as well, and might feel like I need to defend myself.

Also Zimmerman's wounds were superficial. So. Even then, manslaughter from "imperfect self defense" seeing as he was not in imminent peril, at any point.

ps fuck you

[canto-faire]

I absolutely believe George Zimmerman was a bigot, and his actions up to and including following Martin, while carrying a gun, and in defiance of the police, were beyond wildly unjustified, they probably should have been downright criminal.

That being said, I have one concern which makes me condemn the verdict to an expression of white supremacy or racial issues. Given Zimmerman's injuries, and the fact that we was on the ground when he shot, isn't there a good chance that he actually was acting in self defense out of fear for his life?

I haven't watched the trial or followed it very closely, so if anyone more knowledgeable has a response, I'd be very grateful. I know a lot of people have very strong convictions that he's guilty, and I'd like a more thorough understanding of why that is before I consider an opinion myself.

[∞]

You are using legal sounding language when you're really trying to make a point about an ethical position you have. If I see a homeless old white dude pissing in a trashcan in my front yard, and I call the police, and they tell me not to follow him, but I follow him anyway, even after he has left my property, because there's been a spate of pissing old white guys urinating in their hobo-cans on people's front yards, that DOES NOT give the homeless guy a legal carte blanche to attack me. Even if it were "stalking," which it actually, legally speaking, isn't, that STILL doesn't give him the legal right to attack me. Nor does me following him, if he is beating me mercilessly against the concrete and punching me in an attack he initiated, that I have forfeited a legal right to self-defense.

1. Yes it does. Trayvonn never violated anyone's property and comparing him to a homeless man pissing is me pissing off quite a bit.

2. I'm done. We are at an impasse because of the racial context you have embedded in your thick skull. Its obvious to me that you have a reactionary outlook at life examining the root of where your thought on the matter comes from. No matter how socialist you claim to be.

[L.A.P.]

I think Lucreatia's argument is definitely adhering to the logic of proprety laws that Zimmerman had any legitimacy to pursue Martin just because he may have been "trespassing". Not trespassing into someone's home or yard, but into a residential area that is restricted to his access.

Do they not see what's wrong with that? I would honestly expect the average person to see something wrong with that, let alone a "communist".

[Lucretia]

Yo this analogy sucks though because that dude's doing something illegal, white Trayvon Martin was just walking while black. Also, if someone's following me when I'm talking in a neighborhood I'm not familiar with, I'm going to be on edge as well, and might feel like I need to defend myself.

Also Zimmerman's wounds were superficial. So. Even then, manslaughter from "imperfect self defense" seeing as he was not in imminent peril, at any point.

ps fuck you

You can take out the pissing part. Let's say the old guy is doing jumping jacks and acting really weird and unpredictable, like he might be under the influence. The point remains. I would hate to live in the society that all of you self-righteous critics seem to envision where following somebody who is acting weird not only becomes "stalking," but then warrants physical attacks. Just wow.

The nature of Zimmerman's wounds don't have to be life threatening to indicate that Zimmerman might reasonably have believed that his life were at risk. What matters, in terms of what the jury had to consider, was whether the situation suggested a reasonable possibility that Zimmerman might sustain serious bodily harm. It doesn't have to be a post factum thing. Another example of how you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

PS: I don't take you seriously enough to get worked up into calling you names. But feel free to keep pounding your chest. Big man, huh? More revolutionary than I, that's for sure...

[Lucretia]

I think Lucreatia's argument is definitely adhering to the logic of proprety laws that Zimmerman had any legitimacy to pursue Martin just because he may have been "trespassing". Not trespassing into someone's home or yard, but into a residential area that is restricted to his access.

Do they not see what's wrong with that? I would honestly expect the average person to see something wrong with that, let alone a "communist".

Excuse me? You're not paying a goddamned bit of attention to anything I am saying if you are suggesting I am making any prescriptive statements about how the event would have played out in a socialist society, or about the quality of the laws that Florida has on the books (apart from the statement I just made, and which I stand behind, that JUST following somebody for a brief period of time doesn't warrant violent retaliation).

[blake 3:17]

Lucretia infracted for trolling this thread. The user has been asked to stop more than once.

[DasFapital]

I think its irrelevant whether or not Zimmerman was racist. The fact is a guy who passes for white managed to not get convicted of murdering an African American after being tried by one of the most bizarre jury compositions I have ever heard of (maybe playing into the age old fears of black men raping white women?). Meanwhile, a black woman who uses the same law to fire warning shots at her abusive husband gets 20 years. Honestly, at the end of the day I think most white conservatives would side with a light skinned Hispanic with a "white" sounding name over an African American. This case just proves how racist and fucked up the justice system is.

[Le Communiste]

Yet #FF0000 gets to tell someone to go kill themselves and for someone to go fuck themselves. But just keep looking at Lucreita.


Lucretia infracted for trolling this thread. The user has been asked to stop more than once.


Alrighty there

[Lucretia]

Lucretia infracted for trolling this thread. The user has been asked to stop more than once.

The definition of trolling is to argue a position insincerely to incite a reaction. Do you mind explaining to me which posts suggest that I am not arguing in good faith?

[#FF0000]

You can take out the pissing part. Let's say the old guy is doing jumping jacks and acting really weird and unpredictable, like he might be under the influence.

Even then you have someone acting out of the ordinary -- and even then, if you follow them and try to engage with them in any way with a gun on your person, that is definitely risky legal ground, let alone wholly unethical.


The point remains. I would hate to live in the society that all of you self-righteous critics seem to envision where following somebody is acting weird not only becomes "stalking," but then warrants an physical attacks. Just wow.


I would hate to live in a society where it's apparently beyond belief that I would be afraid if someone was following me while I was walking in a strange neighborhood.

Also Trayvon wasn't acting strangely. He was walking home.

If the roles were reversed and the shooter a black man, the victim in Trayvon's place would be the one who was said to have acted in self-defense.


The nature of Zimmerman's wounds don't have to be life threatening to indicate that Zimmerman might reasonably have believed that his life were at risk. What matters, in terms of what the jury had to consider, was whether the situation suggested a reasonable possibility that Zimmerman might sustain serious bodily harm. It doesn't have to be a post factum thing.

Except his wounds were nowhere near serious enough for him to him to believe that, and the wound on his head in particular wasn't consistent with "bashing" against pavement. Not to mention the total lack of skin cells under Trayvon's fingernails. It's imperfect self defense, at the very best, dude.


Another example of how you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.


LUCRETIA
TELLING SOMEONE ELSE THEY DONT KNOW WHAT THEYRE TALKING ABOUT
SOMEONE HOLD ME


PS: I don't take you seriously enough to get worked up into calling you names. But feel free to keep pounding your chest. Big man, huh? More revolutionary than I, that's for sure...

And I never get mad at internet arguments, but this case has real life implications for real people, and those implications are pretty fucking frightening and seriously depressing.

[#FF0000]

Lucretia infracted for trolling this thread. The user has been asked to stop more than once.

Lucretia is sincerely stupid, though. It isn't their fault.

[L.A.P.]

You can take out the pissing part. Let's say the old guy is doing jumping jacks and acting really weird and unpredictable, like he might be under the influence. The point remains. I would hate to live in the society that all of you self-righteous critics seem to envision where following somebody who is acting weird not only becomes "stalking," but then warrants physical attacks. Just wow.


you're literally abstracting your statements into false equivalences.

guy walking through neighborhood stoned =/= tweaking out like a weirdo / acting like a hysteric

aggressively chasing someone =/= following them with odd curiosity of their actions

I don't want to specualte too much, but there's plenty of people in this area like Geroge Zimmerman. Always out to get in everyone's shit if there is a slight variation of someone new in their boring fucking alienated lives. I live here too, I'm alienated and bored too. But people who displace it by policing everyone else to legitimize themselves need to put their heads between the entrance gates of their shitty communities.

[Lucretia]

Even then you have someone acting out of the ordinary -- and even then, if you follow them and try to engage with them in any way with a gun on your person, that is definitely risky legal ground, let alone wholly unethical.



I would hate to live in a society where it's apparently beyond belief that I would be afraid if someone was following me while I was walking in a strange neighborhood.

Also Trayvon wasn't acting strangely. He was walking home.

If the roles were reversed and the shooter a black man, the victim in Trayvon's place would be the one who was said to have acted in self-defense.



Except his wounds were nowhere near serious enough for him to him to believe that, and the wound on his head in particular wasn't consistent with "bashing" against pavement. Not to mention the total lack of skin cells under Trayvon's fingernails. It's imperfect self defense, at the very best, dude.



LUCRETIA
TELLING SOMEONE ELSE THEY DONT KNOW WHAT THEYRE TALKING ABOUT
SOMEONE HOLD ME



And I never get mad at internet arguments, but this case has real life implications for real people, and those implications are pretty fucking frightening and seriously depressing.

Yes, assuming somebody is racist and approving of threats against their life on that assumption is a very, very serious thing. Isn't it? It still doesn't warrant acting like an ass.

While somebody might be nervous at having another person follow them, do you honestly think that a justifiable reaction is attacking that person? Seriously? Not just saying, "Hey, why the fuck are you following me?"

As for the wounds, I have explained once already that wounds don't have to be life threatening to suggest that somebody was in a potentially debilitating of life threatening situation. I have NO IDEA whether Zimmerman was in one, but that's not the point I was making, was it? It was that jury had to base its decision off of what was in evidence, and that it had to see evidence that proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was lying when he suggested he did feel he was under such a threat.

[blake 3:17]

#FF0000 -- Don't go there. You probably deserve an infraction too at this point. I'm way too tired. Stop the personal attacks.

[#FF0000]

While somebody might be nervous at having another person follow them, do you honestly think that a justifiable reaction is attacking that person? Seriously? Not just saying, "Hey, why the fuck are you following me?"

Which is what he did, according to the only witness throughout this entire case that didn't change her story.


As for the wounds, I have explained once already that wounds don't have to be life threatening to suggest that somebody was in a potentially debilitating of life threatening situation.

The thing is, the wounds weren't consistent with his story. He said his head was being bashed against the ground. His wounds were not consistent with that.

[Lucretia]

you're literally abstracting your statements into false equivalences.

guy walking through neighborhood stoned =/= tweaking out like a weirdo / acting like a hysteric

aggressively chasing someone =/= following them with odd curiosity of their actions

I don't want to specualte too much, but there's plenty of people in this area like Geroge Zimmerman. Always out to get in everyone's shit if there is a slight variation of someone new in their boring fucking alienated lives. I live here too, I'm alienated and bored too. But people who displace it by policing everyone else to legitimize themselves need to put their heads between the entrance gates of their shitty communities.

The only equivalence I am drawing is that of following somebody on the basis of the person engaging in purportedly suspicious behavior. Whether that suspicious behavior is doing handstands or looking in people's windows is really beside the point.

The other point you make about Zimmerman being a busy body is a legitimate point, and one that I would actually be interested in discussing, actually from a position critical of Zimmerman. But first I have to clear through all the "hang 'em high!" bullshit that is polluting the thread.

[∞]

Please ban Lucretia. The left has no time for this reactionary bullshit.

[Lucretia]

Which is what he did, according to the only witness throughout this entire case that didn't change her story.

So we've gone from arguing that being followed means that violently retaliating is justified, to the argument that Trayvon didn't violently retalitate but was attacked by Zimmerman. First, thanks for adopting my position that it is not reasonable or ethical (or legal, for that matter) to attack somebody just because somebody is following you in a way that makes you nervous. Second, if indeed the witness you mention was correct in her version of events (and the prosecution was right about its version of events), OBVIOUSLY what Zimmerman did was legally punishable as, at least, manslaughter. And that's not even going into the ethics of his actions. I have no idea which version of the events is true. My point throughout has been that the verdict was predictable because the prosecution evidence was very weak. The only proof that Zimmmerman was the aggressor was the testimony of a witness who on the stand provided accounts that contradicted what she said in earlier statements to her attorneys.


The thing is, the wounds weren't consistent with his story. He said his head was being bashed against the ground. His wounds were not consistent with that.This is what days of the trial seemed to be about. Multiple medical experts were brought in by the defense to say that Zimmerman's injuries were "consistent" with his version of the events.

[Lucretia]

Please ban Lucretia. The left has no time for this reactionary bullshit.

How, exactly, am I being reactionary?

[L.A.P.]

The only equivalence I am drawing is that of following somebody on the basis of the person engaging in purportedly suspicious behavior. Whether that suspicious behavior is doing handstands or looking in people's windows is really beside the point.

The other point you make about Zimmerman being a busy body is a legitimate point, and one that I would actually be interested in discussing, actually from a position critical of Zimmerman. But first I have to clear through all the "hang 'em high!" bullshit that is polluting the thread.

I think you lend way too much legitimacy to the justice system, though. and I think you would be wrong to start your criticism of Zimmerman from the angle that 'people being busy-bodies is the problem' especially if you're basically claiming that Zimmerman didn't actually murder someone because technically 'he had the right to shoot a possibly suspicious trespasser'.

I hope you don't mind if I get a bit Foucauldian, but look at how the situation was symbolically inscribed into the public discourse. You just said that it doesn't matter to you if Martin was "doing handstands, looking through windows". However, would it matter to you if he was just walking down a sidewalk? Can you understand how 'Trayvon Martin being a non-resident walking through a private community, so George Zimmerman pursued him' was inscribed into the legal discourse as 'Trayvon Martin was suspiciously trespassing onto private property, so George Zimmerman pursued him' because of the bizarre property laws that dominate the discursive formations of the trial and media. The prosecution should have challenged the very premise of pursuing Martin: 'why does walking through a residential area constitute suspicious behavior?'. but the jury were mostly five white women who very well may value their 'safe' gated-community lives.

[RadioRaheem84]

I live in South Florida where gated communities like the one Martin was shot in make up a huge portion of the residential areas, and I think a lot of this awful situation has to do with the insanely strict (almost militant) property laws in Florida.

Wearing rolled-up khaki pants with a sweater (the kid was not wearing some stereotypically urban baggy 'hoodie' like some pundits make it seem) walking down a neighborhood alone is only considered odd or suspicious if you're a typical anti-social Floridian prick. I tried smoking in a gated community I didn't live in with friends once, and by the time we were walking back the neighboorhood watch pulled right up and started freaking out. Luckily they were just some really rude and aggressive old ladies, but it could have just as easily been some aggressive asshole guy.

The whole notion that Trayvon Martin appeared to be someone who did not live in the closed-off community is what is supposed to give Zimmerman legitimacy to have assumed Martin to be a "suspicious person" of sorts. That line of reasoning shouldn't be acceptable, but it's acceptable in Florida because you're literally not allowed to just go in those communities without approval (typing the code in through the gate, checking in with the security guard at the gate, and such).

That shouldn't be acceptable to anyone, especially a communist. poor fucking kid made the incredibly risky decision to smoke some pot in a community he didn't live in, and just so happen to get some speed-head rambo chasing after him. He probably didn't know much better if he's used to living in Miami, though. Getting shot by some paranoid guy with no life is exactly why I don't try smoking in public areas in Florida like I would in Upstate New York or some other place that isn't filled with people out to get each other.

This place sucks.

I have to agree with this and second it to the fucking max. Southern States have some insane private property laws that I cannot stand. It's night and day difference living now in California vs Texas. I remember living in the Lone Star fucking shit State and felt that everywhere I went I was trespassing. The city owns little land and landowners and developers own all the land like a fiefdom. In Los Angeles where I am at now a lot of the land is public owned and there is a park or a public area almost everywhere. In Texas there is a master planned community that will watch your suspicious ass at all times and County sheriffs patrolling like sharks.

There is a narrative in America in general but especially in the fucking South that simply states that if you're not following the proper order of decent middle class American norms then you deserve death. That is why a lot of white middle class American southerners are desensitized when they hear about people like Martin, who they suspect as "hoods", getting killed. Their first reaction tends to be, "well he shouldn't have been out at night", "you look suspicious you get killed".

I grew up thinking like this and I did not even grow up in a middle class white household, but a white hispanic working class household. Just for the record, white-hispanics especially from Florida can be just as racist as whites. I don't why there is this huge distinction made as though some how Hispanic automatically constitutes ethnic immunity from racism or special treatment. America may not see it like this but a lot of Hispanics see themselves as "white" and Christian as white Americans, the only distinction made is "Anglo" vs "Hispanic" ethnicity. No one in my family, and if Zimmerman's family is any different, called white people "white" as though they were different. No one ever said that "white guy over there" as though we were different, it was always the "gringo", the "Anglo", "el Americano", never "the blanco guy". This even goes for Hispanics who aren't white too. A lot of them, especially conservative ones, especially white hispanics share a lot of the same values as racist white Anglo conservatives.

This is getting off topic but I just do not get how America and especially the media get Hispanics all wrong.

[Lucretia]

I think you lend way too much legitimacy to the justice system, though. and I think you would be wrong to start your criticism of Zimmerman from the angle that 'people being busy-bodies is the problem' especially if you're basically claiming that Zimmerman didn't actually murder someone because technically 'he had the right to shoot a possibly suspicious trespasser'.

I hope you don't mind if I get a bit Foucauldian, but look at how the situation was symbolically inscribed into the popular discourse/cultural discourse (for lack of abetter term). You just said that it doesn't matter to you if Martin was "doing handstands, looking through windows". However, would it matter to you if he was just walking down a sidewalk? Can you understand how 'Trayvon Martin being a non-resident walking through a private community, so George Zimmerman pursued him' was inscribed into the legal discourse as 'Trayvon Martin was suspiciously trespassing onto private property, so George Zimmerman pursued him' because of the bizarre property laws that dominate the discursive formations of the trial and media. The prosecution should have challenged the very premise of pursuing Martin: 'why does walking through a residential area constitute suspicious behavior?'. but the jury were five white women who very well may value their 'safe' gated-community lives.

The problem, though, is that Zimmerman was not on trial for following Martin. He was on trial for shooting him in the midst of a violent confrontation, with the defense claiming that he fired his weapon in self-defense, and the prosecution claiming that Martin was just defending himself after Zimmerman grabbed him.

Look, I do not doubt for an instant that the probability of Martin being followed by Zimmerman would have been reduced had Martin been white. We do not live in a color blind society. But even saying that, I cannot say confidently that even a white Travis Martin wouldn't have been followed by the self-appointed Barney Fife of Sanford. He may very well have been. I just think it's rash to jump from the recognition that racism is a reality, and racialized perceptions are a reality, to the conclusion that Zimmerman was targeting Martin because he was black, got what was coming to him with his busted up face for daring to "profile" Martin, and should now be killed because the jury was obviously racist, too. In fact, I think that such a leap is reactionary.

I am very familiar with the fucking nightmare that is losing somebody close to you, or seeing on television a persona that you identify as a kind of stand-in for somebody you know and care about (maybe even yourself) who has been seriously hurt for a particular bullshit reason. Martin's parents will always, always, be haunted by the question of, "Well, what if my son had been white? Would he be alive today?" And, if Zimmerman had any humanity, he'll always be haunted regardless of his motivations. But we need to distinguish between this and the bloodlust that kicked off this thread, and which has apparently been, in a lesser form, been diverted in my direction.

[L.A.P.]

you know, I don't even view it as a race thing either. I think the real issue is that Zimmerman felt the need to chase and confront someone just because an "outsider" dared to enter the borders of his neighborhood. If it was a white kid or some mixed kid like me, then it would have probably amounted to an awkward stare down and interrogation. but because there is some presupposed mutual distrust (Martin probably got really scared that someone seemed to be following him, Zimmerman probably thought he finally got someone because it's a black kid running away from him), it escalataed so much, and that's where the deep-seeded racism comes in.

I still deeply abhor what you're saying, though. George Zimmerman did not have a good reason to pursue, approach, and confront Trayvon Martin. In fact, I sympathize with Martin possibly taking a knee-jerk swing at Zimmerman on account that a much bigger guy was fucking chasing him.

[slum]

lucretia here to valiantly play the part of the defense for zimmerman, the racist justice system, AND the 'rights' of people who own private land! a triple reactionary whammy!

maybe you'd like to read up on extralegal killings of black men, a proud american tradition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States

http://mxgm.org/operation-ghetto-storm-2012-annual-report-on-the-extrajudicial-killing-of-313-black-people/



Just for the record, white-hispanics especially from Florida can be just as racist as whites. I don't why there is this huge distinction made as though some how Hispanic automatically constitutes ethnic immunity from racism or special treatment. America may not see it like this but a lot of Hispanics see themselves as "white" and Christian as white Americans, the only distinction made is "Anglo" vs "Hispanic" ethnicity.

THIS for fucks sake

[RadioRaheem84]

Not only am I disturbed by the verdict, I am more disturbed by how white middle class racist America feels they were vindicated by all this. Above all other classes they're the ones that get on my nerves the most because they have this audacity to act as though they're the gatekeepers of American society. They say that he wasn't "innocent" because he was a troubled youth supposedly and he didn't fit the norm. So in their eyes, if you act and look like that, you're going to get shot and in some respects you deserve it. That is their logic, "one less thug in the world".

This self righteous attitude about protecting their gated neighborhoods from the outsiders is downright annoying and after this verdict, dangerous!

[Lucretia]

I still deeply abhor what you're saying, though. George Zimmerman did not have a good reason to pursue, approach, and confront Trayvon Martin. In fact, I sympathize with Martin possibly taking a knee-jerk swing at Zimmerman on account that a much bigger guy was fucking chasing him.

Except I have never argued that Zimmerman had a good reason to pursue Martin, or that he should have pursued him, or any such thing. I said that somebody following you is not justification for a violent attack, if that is indeed what happened. So you are abhorring an argument I have never made. And Zimmerman has ballooned into a fat-ass during the trial. He was not "much bigger" than Martin at the time this shit went down, even if he was bigger at all.

[Martin Blank]

The fix was in on this trial from the beginning. There was never a chance that Zimmerman would be found guilty of anything, and his lawyers knew it.

The first sign that this was going to be a typical Jim Crow trial was when the prosecutors disappeared Zimmerman's racist comment. I have the same master tape that the major networks used. I had it professionally mixed to clear out the background noise and then played it on the radio show I was hosting at the time. Zimmerman said, "Fucking coons". There is no mistaking the long "oo" sound with either "punks" or "cold",... unless you're a so-called "prosecutor" looking to tank a case before it starts, or a corpse-fucking media looking to cash in on a riot-fueled ratings extravaganza.

The composition of the jury invited racist fearmongering from Day One. The choice of mostly white jury composed of mothers, was a problem, because it allowed Zimmerman's lawyers to play on their fears of young Black men. Case in point: Don West's continued use of a previous break-in at the gated community, which involved a (surprise!) young Black man who entered a white woman's apartment.

Going back to the "prosecutors", they spiked the case at every step. They conceded numerous lies told by the defense about the altercation between Zimmerman and Martin: where Zimmerman's gun was tucked (in his back waistband, not his ankle), how many times Zimmerman's head allegedly hit the cement (once, not repeatedly), who was on top of whom (Zimmerman was on top, not Martin), and so on. The "prosecutors" refused to challenge these falsehoods when they were repeated, even though the evidence presented refuted all of it. For that matter, the prosecution was rather silent about Zimmerman's history of violence, his numerous calls to 911 about his Black neighbors (and only his Black neighbors) being so-called "trespassers", and, as has been mentioned several times already, his exiting his truck after being told not to by the cops, his exaggeration of events, his refusal to give the cops his real address, and so on and so on.

The verdict was all but certain from the beginning. It was a victory for the New Jim Crow, for the Tea Party fascists who have pushed the laws that fueled this verdict (e.g., "stand your ground"), and for their masters in the ruling classes who see African Americans as so much "surplus population". Whether Zimmerman is a racist or not (he is) is almost besides the point. The verdict in the trial was a product of racist American capitalism, and that is what can never be forgotten. It cannot be separated from the attack on the Voting Rights Act and drive to systematically disenfranchise African Americans across the country through "Voter ID" poll taxes and convicted-felon restrictions.

Those who would now shrug at the verdict and make excuses for Zimmerman, the Florida in-justice system and/or racist American capitalism, or who show a touching faith in the capitalist state, in general have cast their lots with the ruling classes. These lackeys should be given no quarter among self-described revolutionaries.

[L.A.P.]

Except I have never argued that Zimmerman had a good reason to pursue Martin, or that he should have pursued him, or any such thing. I said that somebody following you is not justification for a violent attack, if that is indeed what happened.

then your argument is nil

who am I kidding, it's been nil

[∞]

Except I have never argued that Zimmerman had a good reason to pursue Martin, or that he should have pursued him, or any such thing. I said that somebody following you is not justification for a violent attack, if that is indeed what happened. So you are abhorring an argument I have never made. And Zimmerman has ballooned into a fat-ass during the trial. He was not "much bigger" than Martin at the time this shit went down, even if he was bigger at all.

Yes you did. With your shitty hobo analogy.

[Lucretia]

The fix was in on this trial from the beginning. There was never a chance that Zimmerman would be found guilty of anything, and his lawyers knew it.

The first sign that this was going to be a typical Jim Crow trial was when the prosecutors disappeared Zimmerman's racist comment. I have the same master tape that the major networks used. I had it professionally mixed to clear out the background noise and then played it on the radio show I was hosting at the time. Zimmerman said, "Fucking coons". There is no mistaking the long "oo" sound with either "punks" or "cold",... unless you're a so-called "prosecutor" looking to tank a case before it starts, or a corpse-fucking media looking to cash in on a riot-fueled ratings extravaganza.

The composition jury invited racist fearmongering from Day One. The choice of mostly white jury composed of mothers, was a problem, because it allowed Zimmerman's lawyers to play on their fears of young Black men. Case in point: Don West's continued use of a previous break-in at the gated community, which involved a (surprise!) young Black man who entered a white woman's apartment.

Going back to the "prosecutors", they spiked the case at every step. They conceded numerous lies told by the defense about the altercation between Zimmerman and Martin: where Zimmerman's gun was tucked (in his back waistband, not his ankle), how many times Zimmerman's head allegedly hit the cement (once, not repeatedly), who was on top of whom (Zimmerman was on top, not Martin), and so on. The "prosecutors" refused to challenge these falsehoods when they were repeated, even though the evidence presented refuted all of it. For that matter, the prosecution was rather silent about Zimmerman's history of violence, his numerous calls to 911 about his Black neighbors (and only his Black neighbors) being so-called "trespassers", and, as has been mentioned several times already, his exiting his truck after being told not to by the cops, his exaggeration of events, his refusal to give the cops his real address, and so on and so on.

The verdict was all but certain from the beginning. It was a victory for the New Jim Crow, for the Tea Party fascists who have pushed the laws that fueled this verdict (e.g., "stand your ground"), and for their masters in the ruling classes who see African Americans as so much "surplus population". Whether Zimmerman is a racist or not (he is) is almost besides the point. The verdict in the trial was a product of racist American capitalism, and that is what can never be forgotten. It cannot be separated from the attack on the Voting Rights Act and drive to systematically disenfranchise African Americans across the country through "Voter ID" poll taxes and convicted-felon restrictions.

Those who would now shrug at the verdict and make excuses for Zimmerman, the Florida in-justice system and/or racist American capitalism, or who show a touching faith in the capitalist state, in general have cast their lots with the ruling classes. These lackeys should be given no quarter among self-described revolutionaries.

Here's a good report on the cold/coons remark, with all sorts of audio enhancements: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOt1wEDy0SI

BTW, I actually agree that the prosecution was pretty fucking incompetent. I wouldn't be surprised if there may have been some attempt to flub the case. But it would have taken a miracle to successfully prosecute a case with the kind of evidence available, whether or not there was deliberate sabotage going on.

[Martin Blank]

Order Prevails in Florida

With the not guilty verdict in the George Zimmerman trial now a matter of public record, the racist ruling classes are now able to breathe a sigh of relief. For 16 months, the capitalists and their “middle class” administrators — politicians and bureaucrats, cops and judges, professionals and managers, self-appointed “leaders” and officials — publicly worried that the acquittal of Zimmerman would lead to a social upheaval, to “riots” and “unrest” — to an anti-racist rebellion. But order prevails in Sanford, Florida.

The bosses’ media is at once relieved and frustrated at the verdict. As the decision was placed in the hands of a jury that had racist fearmongering fed to them by the lawyers for Zimmerman, this same media began to speculate (and salivate) over the prospect of “riots” on the scale of those seen after the acquittal of the cops who brutalized Rodney King or murdered Oscar Grant. But they were denied their macabre prize, because order prevails in America’s inner cities.

The radically reactionary politicians who have spent the last several years building a new Jim Crow throughout the U.S., the verdict is to be taken as a vindication of their efforts. Not only was Zimmerman exonerated in the eyes or their “justice” system, but so were the racist “stand your ground” laws, the criminalization of poor and working-class youth (especially African-American and Latino youth), and the rollback of the modest gains of the Civil Rights movement. For these political barbarians, and their masters, the system works because order prevails tonight.

The parents of Trayvon Martin wanted only peace to be the outcome of this trial — peace of mind, a peaceful rest for their son, peace and justice for the community. There is no question as to why this was their tearful request and appeal. They have truly suffered more than any parents should, and all sympathy and comfort must be extended to them out of respect and basic human dignity. Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin deserve peace, and they deserve our respect. But order, not peace, prevails tonight.

Continue Reading Here.... (http://www.workers-party.com/2013/07/14/order-prevails-in-florida/)

[Zostrianos]

Zimmerman has quite a checkered history:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/13/george-zimmerman-not-guilty_n_3588743.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

It turned out this wasn't Zimmerman's first run-in with the law. He had previously been accused of domestic violence by a former girlfriend, and he had also previously been arrested for assaulting a police officer. More controversially, in July 2012, an evidence dump related to the investigation of Martin's death revealed that a younger female cousin of Zimmerman's had accused him of nearly two decades of sexual molestation and assault. In addition, she had accused members of Zimmerman's family, including his Peruvian-born mother, of being proudly racist against African Americans, and recalled a number of examples of perceived bigotry.

[bcbm]

You can take out the pissing part. Let's say the old guy is doing jumping jacks and acting really weird and unpredictable, like he might be under the influence. The point remains.

so walking down the sidewalk with a can of iced tea and talking to your girlfriend is 'acting weird and unpredictable?'


I would hate to live in the society that all of you self-righteous critics seem to envision where following somebody who is acting weird not only becomes "stalking," but then warrants physical attacks. Just wow.

so you're walking alone by yourself one night and somebody starts following you closely in a car. you feel creeped out and try to duck off the street to get away. this person then gets out of their cars and chases you. you wouldn't feel threatened in any way? just wow.


The nature of Zimmerman's wounds don't have to be life threatening to indicate that Zimmerman might reasonably have believed that his life were at risk. What matters, in terms of what the jury had to consider, was whether the situation suggested a reasonable possibility that Zimmerman might sustain serious bodily harm. It doesn't have to be a post factum thing. Another example of how you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

the thing about 'stand your ground' in this case is that it was trayvon martin who felt that his life was in immediate danger and took a stand because a creepy ass cracker followed him in a vehicle then left the vehicle and pursued him on foot when he tried to get away from the situation.

but apparently some black kid feeling threatened enough to attack his pursuer is justification for said pursuer blowing him away when he loses the fight he started by engaging in a chase he was told not to.


PS: I don't take you seriously enough to get worked up into calling you names. But feel free to keep pounding your chest. Big man, huh? More revolutionary than I, that's for sure...

you're a disgrace to humanity

[Lucretia]

Yes you did. With your shitty hobo analogy.

No, I didn't. Where in my analogy did I say that it was justified to pursue the hobo? Nowhere. Please try to read more carefully. People tried to fault my analogy by saying that it was unfair in how it compared the commission of a crime with just "suspicious behavior" that wasn't criminal. But I quickly clarified that we could swap out the criminal behavior with some other, non-criminal but questionable or suspicious form of behavior.

[L.A.P.]

in this case is that it was trayvon martin who felt that his life was in immediate danger and took a stand because a creepy ass cracker followed him in a vehicle then left the vehicle and pursued him on foot when he tried to get away from the situation.

fucking this

[Lucretia]

so walking down the sidewalk with a can of iced tea and talking to your girlfriend is 'acting weird and unpredictable?'



so you're walking alone by yourself one night and somebody starts following you closely in a car. you feel creeped out and try to duck off the street to get away. this person then gets out of their cars and chases you. you wouldn't feel threatened in any way? just wow.



the thing about 'stand your ground' in this case is that it was trayvon martin who felt that his life was in immediate danger and took a stand because a creepy ass cracker followed him in a vehicle then left the vehicle and pursued him on foot when he tried to get away from the situation.

but apparently some black kid feeling threatened enough to attack his pursuer is justification for said pursuer blowing him away when he loses the fight he started by engaging in a chase he was told not to.



you're a disgrace to humanity

Zimmerman claimed that Martin was slowly and casually walking behind houses in the cold rain, looking around as he did so, in a neighborhood with a lot of recent attempted break-ins. That does sound suspicious. Now, having said that, and to be clear, because there is a hell of a lot of assumptions that are being made in this discussion, that does not justify Zimmerman playing vigilante.

Somebody following me in a car would creep me out, yes. It would scare me, yes. Would it justify me attacking the person, if that person has not attacked me and hasn't threatened to attack me? No. Would it justify me to be prepared to defend myself? Yes. Civilized societies don't authorize people to attack others just because they feel scared. Maybe that's the kind of society you want, but this "disgrace to humanity" wants no part in such a society.

[RadioRaheem84]

The verdict in the trial was a product of racist American capitalism, and that is what can never be forgotten. It cannot be separated from the attack on the Voting Rights Act and drive to systematically disenfranchise African Americans across the country through "Voter ID" poll taxes and convicted-felon restrictions.

Exactly. This verdict represents a win for reactionary Tea Party values. It's the exhalation of strict private property rights, the excuse to hate lower classes and find them unworthy of life and the desensitization of this type of violence towards poor minorities.

I mean what does it fucking matter if the kid has a sketchy past. Why do reactionary fucks bring this up every time?! He wasn't doing a damn thing at the moment he encountered Zimmerman except chilling out walking by himself. I don't get their logic sometimes.

It wouldn't have mattered if the kid was white, black or hispanic (although Zimmerman is clearly racist). This case was more about how middle class America can get away with being judge jury and executioner over people they think are outsiders or are disturbing their idyllic lives. They just can't fucking stand someone who doesn't fit their mold setting foot on their marked territory.

This set a precedent for modern day lynching.

[Martin Blank]

Civilized societies don't authorize people to attack others just because they feel scared.

Actually, they do. That's why Zimmerman is free tonight.

[blake 3:17]

Except I have never argued that Zimmerman had a good reason to pursue Martin, or that he should have pursued him, or any such thing. I said that somebody following you is not justification for a violent attack, if that is indeed what happened. So you are abhorring an argument I have never made. And Zimmerman has ballooned into a fat-ass during the trial. He was not "much bigger" than Martin at the time this shit went down, even if he was bigger at all.

He was 40 pounds heavier, had a gun, a car, and a line to the police.

[L.A.P.]

Zimmerman claimed that Martin was slowly and casually walking behind houses in the cold rain, looking around as he did so, in a neighborhood with a lot of recent attempted break-ins. That does sound suspicious.

stoned teenager......?

here's the joke about break-ins and gated communities. it's always done by kids who live in the community itself, mainly because they're so bored and isolated living in a gated community. I've known them.

EDIT: Like jesus christ, I get caught in the rain while smoking outside on my street all the time in Florida, and I'm always shifting my eyes. Am I gonna get shot?

[Lucretia]

Actually, they do. That's why Zimmerman is free tonight.

No. He's free tonight because the jury ruled that it was not presented with enough evidence to reject his claim beyond a reasonable doubt that he fired his weapon on Martin after being attacked by Martin first. So the law is written to justify attacking somebody after already being attacked. It doesn't justify attacking somebody JUST because you're scared. If it did, the jury would have conceded that Martin had a right to self-defense, which would have made the shooting a criminal act and led to Zimmerman's conviction.

[Lucretia]

stoned teenager......?

here's the joke about break-ins and gated communities. it's always done by kids who live in the community itself, mainly because they're so bored and isolated living in a gated community. I've known them.

Saying he was a stoned teenager doesn't undercut the idea he was acting oddly. It helps explain why, though.

[bcbm]

Zimmerman claimed that Martin was slowly and casually walking behind houses in the cold rain, looking around as he did so, in a neighborhood with a lot of recent attempted break-ins. That does sound suspicious.

yeah zimmermans word after the fact. and no it sounds like a person walking around a neighborhood.


Now, having said that, and to be clear, because there is a hell of a lot of assumptions that are being made in this discussion, that does not justify Zimmerman playing vigilante.

indeed. and he was specifically told, by the pigs, not to follow this person and certainly not to chase him. but what did he do?


Somebody following me in a car would creep me out, yes. It would scare me, yes. Would it justify me attacking the person, if that person has not attacked me and hasn't threatened to attack me? No.

if someone was following you in a car and you tried to get away and they got out of said car and gave chase to you, you would not try to defend yourself? at night, in a cold rain. well i sure would, so i guess i deserve to be blown away by wannabe pigs too.


Would it justify me to be prepared to defend myself? Yes. Civilized societies don't authorize people to attack others just because they feel scared. Maybe that's the kind of society you want, but this "disgrace to humanity" wants no part in such a society.

a person chasing me at night after trailing me in a car, to me, constitutes a very legitimate threat to my personal safety and well-being. trayvon martin was the one standing his ground, not george zimmerman. if getting in over your head by being a fucking creepy, wannabe pig asshole is reason enough to blow some poor kid away i don't know what the fuck kind of civilized society you imagine, but i want no part in that.

[bcbm]

also you can have whatever last word you want on this because i am not responding to you any more because everything you say makes me physically sick i am so angry. good luck supporting the filth.

[L.A.P.]

Lucretia, your worldview wreaks of petty bourgeois liberalism

[Lucretia]

yeah zimmermans word after the fact. and no it sounds like a person walking around a neighborhood.



indeed. and he was specifically told, by the pigs, not to follow this person and certainly not to chase him. but what did he do?



if someone was following you in a car and you tried to get away and they got out of said car and gave chase to you, you would not try to defend yourself? at night, in a cold rain. well i sure would, so i guess i deserve to be blown away by wannabe pigs too.



a person chasing me at night after trailing me in a car, to me, constitutes a very legitimate threat to my personal safety and well-being. trayvon martin was the one standing his ground, not george zimmerman. if getting in over your head by being a fucking creepy, wannabe pig asshole is reason enough to blow some poor kid away i don't know what the fuck kind of civilized society you imagine, but i want no part in that.

No, somebody running after you is not justification for violently attacking them. Somebody running after you with the expressed or demonstrated intention of physically subduing you? Yes. But just running? No, not in my book. And not in the book of the state of Florida, either, as fucked up as its laws tend to be in general. But all that is beside the point, really, as the image you're setting up of Martin breathlessly running until he thought he had no other choice is hardly in line with the evidence that was presented, which suggested at least the possibility that Martin had four minutes to run home after he initially began running from Zimmerman. Inconvenient, I know, but it is something you should consider.

[bcbm]

fuck you

[Lucretia]

fuck you

About what I would expect from somebody of your intellectual caliber.

[Igor]

lucretia acting intellectually superior here is the saddest/funniest thing

[bcbm]

About what I would expect from somebody of your intellectual caliber.

its more than you deserve

[Fawkes]

About what I would expect from somebody of your intellectual caliber.

No, but really, fuck you

[Fawkes]

Even if Martin did swing first, he had every fucking right to. As a black kid growing up in Florida, the world had been swinging at him from the day he was born, god forbid he defend himself from a wannabe pig following him for no other reason than that he was black and wearing a hoodie.

[bcbm]

this thread is keeping my hatred sharp.

[Lucretia]

No, but really, fuck you

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Nothing upsets the liberal tails on this forum more than not assuming that all accusations of racism and sexism are true, regardless of the evidence. You can accuse Trotsky, a Jewish person, of working hand-in-hand with Hitler's genocidal government, and you can enjoy your own thread where you can pursue this "theory" by saying things that are demonstrably false.

But if you want to point out a few facts that might complicate the abstract narratives being mindlessly repeated on this thread, about how racism, channeled through the evil spirit of Zimmerman, killed Trevyon, well then you must be a sleazy, trashy piece of filth who doesn't care about racism and doesn't deserve to live. Kill 'em quick!

[bcbm]

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZWwR8lnaj96jCxjga8DFMBLTtMGl7K X5WM23WVZH70gFg171v

[L.A.P.]

why cant i negrep you?

[MarxArchist]

According to "color blind" bourgeois jurisprudence Zimmerman should have been convicted of manslaughter. Probably deserves more but the evidence was too sketchy to prove a hate crime beyond doubt. The fact he walked from this is disturbing. There is indeed two separate legal systems in place, one for for young black males and one for everyone else.

[connoros]

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Nothing upsets the liberal tails on this forum more than not assuming that all accusations of racism and sexism are true, regardless of the evidence.

This is exactly the kind of comment I'd expect to read on Stormfront.

[Fawkes]

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Nothing upsets the liberal tails on this forum more than not assuming that all accusations of racism and sexism are true, regardless of the evidence. You can accuse Trotsky, a Jewish person, of working hand-in-hand with Hitler's genocidal government, and you can enjoy your own thread where you can pursue this "theory" by saying things that are demonstrably false.

But if you want to point out a few facts that might complicate the abstract narratives being mindlessly repeated on this thread, about how racism, channeled through the evil spirit of Zimmerman, killed Trevyon, well then you must be a sleazy, trashy piece of filth who doesn't care about racism and doesn't deserve to live. Kill 'em quick!

I don't give two shits about Trotsky.

Alright, real talk, regardless of what transpired after the initial conflict, it was all initiated because Zimmerman saw a young black man wearing a hoodie walking through his neighborhood and assumed, based off of no evidence other than the kid's appearance, that he was a threat. That's called racism.

And it's Trayvon, motherfucker

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Yeah, you are. Like about every single detail relating to the case besides the fact that Martin was shot and died. The reason no charges were initially brought
Um, the lead detective wanted charges filed but was overruled.

[Martin Blank]

No. He's free tonight because the jury ruled that it was not presented with enough evidence to reject his claim beyond a reasonable doubt that he fired his weapon on Martin after being attacked by Martin first. So the law is written to justify attacking somebody after already being attacked.

There was no evidence presented that Martin "attacked ... first" -- a phrase that implies an unprovoked physical altercation. That was an assertion made by the defense lawyers based on Zimmerman's false statements -- the same false statements that also said Martin hit him dozens of times (physiologically impossible, given his wounds and the lack of DNA under Martin's fingernails), was beating him on the sidewalk (even though several eyewitnesses said they were on the grass), and was on top of Zimmerman when he fired (a physical impossibility, given how Martin was laying when the crime scene photos were taken and the relative lack of GSR on his hoodie).


It doesn't justify attacking somebody JUST because you're scared. If it did, the jury would have conceded that Martin had a right to self-defense, which would have made the shooting a criminal act and led to Zimmerman's conviction.

The "stand your ground" law states that someone can use their gun if they believe their life was in imminent danger. I can't imagine anyone who believes their life was in imminent danger not being scared. It's part of the emotional package deal.

Also, I laugh condescendingly at your assertion that Martin would ever be considered to have a right to self-defense -- in Florida, in America. If you want to know how "stand your ground" laws apply to African Americans, I suggest you read up on the case of Marissa Alexander (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/06/05/2108171/florida-judge-rejected-stand-your-ground-defense-for-black-woman-who-fired-warning-shot-during-domestic-violence/).


Lucretia, your worldview wreaks of petty bourgeois liberalism

Honestly, did you expect anything else?

[khad]

Bringing Trotsky into this? You for real?

[connoros]

Bringing Trotsky into this? You for real?

Stalin and Trotsky, the Godwin's Law of RevLeft.

[MarxArchist]

Even if Martin did swing first, he had every fucking right to. As a black kid growing up in Florida, the world had been swinging at him from the day he was born, god forbid he defend himself from a wannabe pig following him for no other reason than that he was black and wearing a hoodie.


Which is why as communists we can't interpret the world through the eyes of bourgeois law. I'd rather ask this simple question pictured below. What if....

http://thegrio.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/white_trayvon.jpg?w=487

[Jimmie Higgins]

But if you want to point out a few facts that might complicate the abstract narratives being mindlessly repeated on this thread, about how racism, channeled through the evil spirit of Zimmerman, killed Trevyon, well then you must be a sleazy, trashy piece of filth who doesn't care about racism and doesn't deserve to live. Kill 'em quick!I think you are completely missing the point about the anger in this case. If Zimmerman is being made by people to be their personification of modern racism, it's most likely not because they think he's the most racist person, but because modern racism is much harder to personify than the slur-spewing Southern Sherriff characture.

But what I think people are angry about is not Zimmerman the man being a racist, but how his case illustrates racism in a broader sense. To be a young black man is to be considered "suspicious" and there's a ton of history of red-lining and segregation creating a social expectation that suburbs are not for young black men. Where I work, all the time people report "suspicious activities" and it turns out to be just some black hotel guest. "He didn't look like he belonged here" is the usual thing people report... "he was acting suspicious - standing in front of a hotel room door while going through his pockets". Almost every black person I know - and sometimes non-blacks, but only under certain circumstances and a certain age-range - has a story about a shopkeeper following them or some neighbor of a friend watching them through a window to make sure they left, etc. This is why people identify with Trayvon and this is why most people who are anti-racists see the systemic racism that surrounds this case like a sharknado.

Even on the face of this case, the logic of the situation itself is contradictory: following someone is not "standing your ground". So then what is this case really about... it's the legitamacy of young black people being considered a "threat" by their very existance. The same exact logic which allows cops to shoot any kid and say, "I thought they had this or were reaching for that" and the courts supports them and the media praises them sending the clear message that young black men are a threat.

This is why people from most of the left to many young people and many black people see this case as racism - irregardless of whatever sits cramped in the heart of hearts of Zimmerman.

[brigadista]

Trayvon Martin was on trial - - not George Zimmerman - better not be a young black youth in Florida.... all kinds of fucked up

[The Feral Underclass]

Lucretia, your worldview wreaks of petty bourgeois liberalism

I called it first!

[The Feral Underclass]

I am happy to see that hatred for Lucreatia has become a unifying point of principle.

[MarxArchist]

Trayvon Martin was on trial - - not George Zimmerman - better not be a young black youth in Florida.... all kinds of fucked up

I agree 100% but victim's are usually the ones on trial with the defendants. It becomes a mud slinging contest. He wasn't so much on trial because of the presumptions that he must have been doing something wrong. The only "key witness" or most damning was John Good. How could Trayvon defend himself from that testimony? He couldn't because he's dead. In this sense it was less of a trial and more of a sadistic sort of legal necrophilia where the state gained pleasure in victimizing the dead. Hell, even if it was on video as we saw with Oscar Grant the state would minimize it. This is the racist angle I'm paying attention to, not Zimmerman himself so much.

[brigadista]

I agree 100% but victim's are usually the ones on trial with the defendants. It becomes a mud slinging contest. He wasn't so much on trial because of the presumptions that he must have been doing something wrong. The only "key witness" or most damning was John Good. How could Trayvon defend himself from that testimony? He couldn't because he's dead. In this sense it was less of a trial and more of a sadistic sort of legal necrophilia where the state gained pleasure in victimizing the dead. Hell, even if it was on video as we saw with Oscar Grant the state would minimize it. This is the racist angle I'm paying attention to, not Zimmerman himself so much.

guilty of being black while walking....

[Sea]

guilty of being black while walking....That's no crime, but being black while living is, apparently.

[SonofRage]

I'm so heart broken and was in tears last night. Not that the verdict surprised me.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[Le Libérer]

Nationwide protests hit the US following the acquittal of George Zimmerman, with protesters burning flags, smashing police cars and shop windows. Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin, 17, out of apparent self-defense.
09:00 GMT: Protests were also reported in Atlanta and Philadelphia.
08:52 GMT: Protesters turned violent in Oakland, CA, smashing shop windows and overturning trash cans. Demonstrators also spray painted anti-police graffiti on cars and buildings. No arrests have reportedly been made.
http://rt.com/files/news/1f/c1/f0/00/us-zimmerman-nationwide-protests-.si.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPHq_xrCcAArw0E.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPHOzlGCEAIoNgR.jpg:large

Riots in downtown Oakland in response to Zimmerman ruling.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPHV3iMCMAAWVCZ.jpg:large

"Aint no power like the power of the youth cuz the power of the youth dont stop"
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPHKV5rCMAAOWRt.jpg:large


Source (http://rt.com/usa/us-zimmerman-nationwide-protests-079/)

[brigadista]

solidarity with all protesting in the US :):) there is a lot of anger here too

[Invader Zim]

Defense lawyers claim that Martin attacked Zimmerman first. Since no witness can confirm this, and Martin cannot speak for himself, we only have Zimmerman's opinion to go on (plus his lawyers' imagination) Even assuming this were so, no one attacks someone for no reason... my theory is that Zimmerman must have yelled out a racial comment or something that started the whole thing. But we will never know.

I simply don't trust this guy Zimmerman. I get the impression that he is a pathological liar. And he got away with murder. I hope there will be a civil lawsuit charging him with wrongful death.


Well, exactly. However, that isn't enough to get a prosecution for second degree murder - the odds are designed to be stacked heavily in favour of the defence.

It also seems, from a legalistic point of view, that the prosecution over egged the pudding. As Lucretia noted earlier, it was always going to be very difficult to substantiate a case of second degree murder without eye witnesses and a considerable array of other evidence to be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman followed Martin with intent to kill. From what others have said, it seems that a charge more likely to see a successful prosecution would have been manslaughter, but that the judge made that difficult. I don't know the ins and outs of the case, just what has been reported in the media, but that is what I have taken from this.

But yeah. This isn't justice and it is entirely reasonable for people to protest the failure of the entire system in this case - the conscious or perhaps unconscious racism of profiling by Zimmerman, the ridiculous stand-your-ground laws, the failure of the police to arrest Zimmerman and blood test him, the failure of the state prosecution service to draw up charges in a timely fashion, the bias leaking of evidence in the case, the media frenzy which made a fair and impartial trial impossible, the over-charging by the prosecution, and the judge for making a charge of manslaughter more difficult still.

The whole case has made a public farce of justice in America - as if we didn't need another example.


There was no evidence presented that Martin "attacked ... first" -- a phrase that implies an unprovoked physical altercation.

Well the problem is that there doesn't need to be. There only needs to be the possibility. It isn't up to the defence to prove that its case is plausible, it is upto the prosecution to prove it implausible. Zimmerman only had to state his story, and unless the prosecution could disprove it, he was always going to walk on the basis that unless categorically proven untrue then there is reasonable doubt. And that is all Zimmerman and the defence team needed. That's Lucretia's point.

In my view the issue here is with the way the law has been written to make it very difficult to successfully prosecute people who behave in the way that Zimmerman did.

[Invader Zim]

You didn't even follow the trial you stupid motherfucker. The juror you're talking about was hispanic you literal human garbage.

And yeah, there was evidence for manslaughter -- the fact that Zimmerman ever got out of his car to engage Trayvon Martin is negligence that lead to a situation where a gun was fired and a person was killed. Zimmerman did the thing they tell you exactly not to do when you take your classes for concealed carry permits. I know because I have one you stupid fuck.

god. eat shit and die for real.

My emphasis.

Is this really necessary?

I agree with you that Zimmerman walking doesn't seem to be at all 'justice', in fact the precise reverse. But the fact remains that while there is enough evidence to convict him in my eyes there is not in the current legal system in Florida, because there are reasonable doubts. They aren't enough to get me to change the balance of my reading of the case, I still think that the preponderance of the evidence we have available implies Zimmerman's clear guilt of negligence, (un?)conscious racism, starting a confrontation (regardless of whether Martin threw the first punch), and ultimately shooting an unarmed boy who deserves to be alive. In my view that stacks up to manslaughter at least. But, all of these are subject to doubts of varying degrees. That doesn't mean that Zimmerman isn't guilty (and I think he is), it means that it was impossible to prove to six jurors he is beyond all reasonable doubt. Getting angry with Lucretia for pointing that out doesn't change anything. Save your anger for the real issue here - which is stand your ground laws and the fact that the situation could exist in the first place which led to Trayvon Martin's tragic and untimely death.

[Vanilla]

I feel so bad for Trayvon's family right now. They had to sit through the trial, listening to their son being blamed for his own death and now his murderer walks free. I hope that the left can organize some sort of solidarity campaign with his family.

[#FF0000]

My emphasis.

Is this really necessary?

that was my emphasis too, actually!

[Invader Zim]

that was my emphasis too, actually!

No shit. But if you really wish death on a person because they disagree with you in a conservation on the internet, then quite frankly you need to grow up. It doesn't tell us anything about Lucretia but a hell of a lot about you.

[DasFapital]

So much reactionary bullshit on facebook. "You can't escape justice by playing the race card." Seriously fuck this hipster conservatism I've seen lately.

[connoros]

So much reactionary bullshit on facebook. "You can't escape justice by playing the race card." Seriously fuck this hipster conservatism I've seen lately.

It seems like the fashionable thing is to be "un-P.C." And that only seems to mean it's fashionable to parrot reactionary sentiment. I get the appeal, though: a hipster wants to differentiate himself from all the liberals he's surrounded himself with.

[tachosomoza]

I find it disgusting and pitiful that reactionaries on sites that I should not mention here are gleefully awaiting civil unrest so that they can use their weapons to murder and maim people.

[RedSonRising]

The prosecution could have spent more time going for reckless manslaughter. Legally, recklessness is defined as conduct done with conscious disregard of a substantial risk of harm to another. Murder requires premeditation (thinking about it beforehand with intent) and deliberation (contemplating it with a cool head). 2nd degree murder is similar to reckless manslaughter, because you need to act with "depraved indifference to human life", but it's easier to prove that Zimmerman acted stupidly and stubbornly and aggressively, rather than maliciously and with "depraved indifference". Using the phone recordings as evidence was good and all, but really failed to meet the standard.

The thing is, this isn't just one incident. This is a pattern, a trend, Trayvon is just the face of it right now.

[Invader Zim]

Yes that is exactly why I was/am upset over this you dumb twat

A nice touch of misogynistic language there, from someone who should certainly know better. What next are you going to call me a 'dumb c**t', a 'dumb fag', or any other prejudiced pejorative you can draw from your neanderthal imagination? But you're right, I should just leave you masculine types to strut your bullyboy tactics unimpeded - how dare I call you up on it. I know my place now.

What next? You're going to lay sobbing on the floor while beating your fists against the ground in an act of impotent rage? You tell me.

[The Feral Underclass]

Shut up, Enigma. The person is entitled to express themselves any way they like; stop trying to prescribe how other people communicate their feelings. Their use of language has fuck all to do with you.

[Ele'ill]

according to youtube, from oakland

mx4eqOzbBVc

there are a few fake riot videos floating around

[Invader Zim]

Shut up, Enigma. The person is entitled to express themselves any way they like; stop trying to prescribe how other people communicate their feelings. Their use of language has fuck all to do with you.

I used to agree with you, but these days I think people should be able to disagree without resorting to prejudiced language. I don't think it is very becoming of a 'leftist' board. But, now that you have told me to 'shut up' I know better. How shameful of me. As I said to F00000, I know my place now.

[Le Communiste]

You know, most of the people here are tools of the media. I recall reading a quote on how a person of colored is shot and killed once every 28 hours. Where are all the threads on even one or two of these from 3 weeks ago. Why is this the only thread on this? Most of you also base your sole opinion on what the media has stated. Not doing any research and shrugging off any information you deem doesn't help your side. But when you do acknowledge it, you simply say "shut up" or "Fuck You" or "god. eat shit and die for real."

Really a good way for the left to be

[RadioRaheem84]

Look Lucretia had a point but only up to certain degree that getting a fair conviction out of the Zimmerman case would've been difficult because of the reactionary nature if the Florida courts, meaning the problem was systemic. But Lucretia instead decided to actually explain away zimmermans actions as stupid but not illegal. That was fucked up.

The case should have been on trayvons side but due to the systemic process which was stacked in favor of the defendant it was going to be an uphill battle.

Don't you get it Lucretia, they don't want to give what trayvons represents in their eyes justice. Justice is incedental to the law, what matters is the preservation of the social order.

[#FF0000]

You know, most of the people here are tools of the media...Most of you also base your sole opinion on what the media has stated.

Nah actually it's based off of what I know about law, about similar cases, my own experience with guns and concealed carry permits and self-defense law, and everything we saw out of the case.

People disagreeing with your (incorrect) view doesn't make them "tools of the media" (I don't even own a TV). Insinuating that the people who disagree with you are just "tools of the media" is disingenuous and dishonest.


I recall reading a quote on how a person of colored is shot and killed once every 28 hours. Where are all the threads on even one or two of these from 3 weeks ago.

But racism and police brutality is a very common topic on this board? We don't talk about every single individual injustice, but we talk about the whole of it quite often. It would be literally impossible to have a thread about each and every single instance, and not every case is national news. Is caring about everything a prerequisite for caring about anything?


Not doing any research and shrugging off any information you deem doesn't help your side. But when you do acknowledge it, you simply say "shut up" or "Fuck You" or "god. eat shit and die for real."

But I did do research and I have a pool of prior knowledge to build from? And the information that "didn't help my side" was simply wrong, and I pointed all of the incorrect information out.

ps fuck you shut up eat shit and die for real

[Fourth Internationalist]

You know, most of the people here are tools of the media. I recall reading a quote on how a person of colored is shot and killed once every 28 hours. Where are all the threads on even one or two of these from 3 weeks ago. Why is this the only thread on this? Most of you also base your sole opinion on what the media has stated. Not doing any research and shrugging off any information you deem doesn't help your side. But when you do acknowledge it, you simply say "shut up" or "Fuck You" or "god. eat shit and die for real."

Really a good way for the left to be

While I actually am on the other side of this debate compared to you and Lucretia, people here really need to know how to civily debate. Telling someone to eat shit and die for real is absolutely archaic and is a bannable offense.

[#FF0000]

While I actually am on the other side of this debate compared to you and Lucretia, people here really need to know how to civily debate. Telling someone to eat shit and die for real is absolutely archaic and is a bannable offense.

Predictably people are upset that it is 2013 and people are allowed to shoot unarmed black teenagers and get away with it, and are depressed and extremely upset about the implications of this decision.

I imagine the same people here talking about the Emmet Till case as they are now. "Let's try to be civil! I'm just saying the jury did it's job! The entire jury couldn't be wrong or racist, after all?"

[Quail]

Alright, this is a general verbal warning to stop flaming.

I totally understand why people are getting angry, but a) flaming is against the rules and b) it's really not conducive to a productive, reasoned debate.

[Le Communiste]

Fuck off, Lucretia


You didn't even follow the trial you stupid motherfucker. The juror you're talking about was hispanic you literal human garbage.

And yeah, there was evidence for manslaughter -- the fact that Zimmerman ever got out of his car to engage Trayvon Martin is negligence that lead to a situation where a gun was fired and a person was killed. Zimmerman did the thing they tell you exactly not to do when you take your classes for concealed carry permits. I know because I have one you stupid fuck.

god. eat shit and die for real.


Fuck you.


Lucretia is sincerely stupid, though. It isn't their fault.

Ignore all of this. It's my last time posting this because all of the mods/admins ignore it anyways


Nah actually it's based off of what I know about law, about similar cases, my own experience with guns and concealed carry permits and self-defense law, and everything we saw out of the case.

People disagreeing with your (incorrect) view doesn't make them "tools of the media" (I don't even own a TV). Insinuating that the people who disagree with you are just "tools of the media" is disingenuous and dishonest.



But racism and police brutality is a very common topic on this board? We don't talk about every single individual injustice, but we talk about the whole of it quite often. It would be literally impossible to have a thread about each and every single instance, and not every case is national news. Is caring about everything a prerequisite for caring about anything?



But I did do research and I have a pool of prior knowledge to build from? And the information that "didn't help my side" was simply wrong, and I pointed all of the incorrect information out.

ps fuck you shut up eat shit and die for real


I said most, but if the shoe fits wear it

[#FF0000]

I said most, but if the shoe fits wear it

It doesn't though


Ignore all of this. It's my last time posting this because all of the mods/admins ignore it anyways

Yo I collect infractions like pokemon cards dude dry your tears

[Le Communiste]

It doesn't though

Then why where you thinking my comment was directed at you then?

[Ele'ill]

You know, most of the people here are tools of the media. I recall reading a quote on how a person of colored is shot and killed once every 28 hours. Where are all the threads on even one or two of these from 3 weeks ago. Why is this the only thread on this? Most of you also base your sole opinion on what the media has stated. Not doing any research and shrugging off any information you deem doesn't help your side. But when you do acknowledge it, you simply say "shut up" or "Fuck You" or "god. eat shit and die for real."

Really a good way for the left to be

so you're not 'left'? and in what way are you distancing yourself?

I think you're right here but not entirely, I think since this event is in the spotlight it has a lot of people's attention and energy to this specific event, others like it, and each other's rage.

also tuning out from local reaction to it now because it has turned into white community organizers labeling any type of subversive action (smash) as being nothing but white kids in masks they are literally in a frenzy to control the response to it like it's their kid's b day party or something...

[Le Communiste]

Yo I collect infractions like pokemon cards dude dry your tears

Gotta catch them all



No I'm just not being an asshat human being, which is apparently wrong in your eyes

[#FF0000]

Then why where you thinking my comment was directed at you then?

Because it's a disingenuous, lazy, and dishonest way to engage in a discussion no matter who it's directed at.

[Le Communiste]

so you're not 'left'? and in what way are you distancing yourself?

Actually, I'm not distancing myself, I'm just using an "Us and Them" Mentality on the sides of the Zimmerman trial. Seemed to be the best way to put it

[Le Communiste]

Because it's a disingenuous way to engage in a discussion no matter who it's directed at.

Probably, but you are more or less in the same boat as me

[goalkeeper]

Nope, it is called class morality. It is not a matter of being good. We Communists are not, good, we are just as evil as the bourgeois. The difference being that our evil is directed at the capitalist rather than at the proletariat.


God, this esoteric teenage rage stuff is really annoying

[#FF0000]

Probably, but you are more or less in the same boat as me

Except I'm right so that puts me on like the Enterprise in space while you are on a rickety raft.

[Fourth Internationalist]

God, this esoteric teenage rage stuff is really annoying

Hey! That's ageism! We teens are not all like that!

[∞]

Nationwide protests hit the US following the acquittal of George Zimmerman, with protesters burning flags, smashing police cars and shop windows. Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin, 17, out of apparent self-defense.
09:00 GMT: Protests were also reported in Atlanta and Philadelphia.
08:52 GMT: Protesters turned violent in Oakland, CA, smashing shop windows and overturning trash cans. Demonstrators also spray painted anti-police graffiti on cars and buildings. No arrests have reportedly been made.
http://rt.com/files/news/1f/c1/f0/00/us-zimmerman-nationwide-protests-.si.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPHq_xrCcAArw0E.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPHOzlGCEAIoNgR.jpg:large

Riots in downtown Oakland in response to Zimmerman ruling.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPHV3iMCMAAWVCZ.jpg:large

"Aint no power like the power of the youth cuz the power of the youth dont stop"
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPHKV5rCMAAOWRt.jpg:large


Source (http://rt.com/usa/us-zimmerman-nationwide-protests-079/)

Ah but this is a reactionary black bourgeois demonstration according to Lucretia.

[Ele'ill]

Hey! That's ageism! We teens are not all like that!

as if teenagers need yet someone else telling them to stay under control

[Bostana]

God, this esoteric teenage rage stuff is really annoying

As A teen, I resent this comment

[Bostana]

as if teenagers need yet someone else telling them to stay under control

And I resent this too

[Ele'ill]

And I resent this too

Why?

[L.A.P.]

I am happy to see that hatred for Lucreatia has become a unifying point of principle.

I always thought Lucretia was just one of those many dumb persistent posters we have on the board who are oblivious to how useless and idiotic their posts are

[∞]

As A teen, I resent this comment

Ok quit with the teenage. We get it, you're teenagers. Judging by what I would post here as a teenager its not that weird of an assumption.



Glad people are causing a stir and its not especially race driven. I see all races of people in these photos, great. Because in the end its not white vs black its the oppressive system which creates conditions to do away with murder (through "defending" bourgeois property) zoning in on the everyday person.

As a middle-eastern man, I've had my fair share of racial profile and if I lived in a state like Florida I don't know what would happen. Because according to Florida if Trayvon would have shot Zimmerman he would be a-ok. But if Trayvon did shoot Zimmerman I'm still sure the verdict would be different and the media would classify him as a thug. Its a lose-lose situation really. A 17 year old can't own a firearm anyway.

[baronci]

woah this is crazy i thought i was on a revolutionary left forum

[The Intransigent Faction]

Forgive me if this was touched on already, but I'm not as well versed on this stuff as I should be: Where does the case go from here? Can't the prosecution appeal the jury verdict?

[L.A.P.]

Forgive me if this was touched on already, but I'm not as well versed on this stuff as I should be: Where does the case go from here? Can't the prosecution appeal the jury verdict?

double jeopardy. Only the defendant can appeal cases in criminal court

[baronci]

Except I have never argued that Zimmerman had a good reason to pursue Martin, or that he should have pursued him, or any such thing. I said that somebody following you is not justification for a violent attack, if that is indeed what happened. So you are abhorring an argument I have never made. And Zimmerman has ballooned into a fat-ass during the trial. He was not "much bigger" than Martin at the time this shit went down, even if he was bigger at all.

you're a maniac if you've read even the smallest amount of pro-rev lit and can't see through to the racist nature of the bourgeois justice system. all your posts in this thread are insane and you should be ashamed of yourself, same for "le communiste" or whatever, though i have a feeling he's just a dumb kid who doesnt know better

[Fawkes]

Forgive me if this was touched on already, but I'm not as well versed on this stuff as I should be: Where does the case go from here? Can't the prosecution appeal the jury verdict?

No. There are two things that can happen, one is Martin's family can (and probably will) bring a wrongful death lawsuit against Zimmerman. In all likelihood, they'd probably win. Civil court works on a 50% +1 approach. Whereas in criminal court the defendant needs to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, in civil court, they just have to be shown to be more guilty than not guilty. The other thing that could happen, though it's less likely it will, is the Department of Justice brings federal civil rights charges against Zimmerman.

[Le Communiste]

Except I'm right so that puts me on like the Enterprise in space while you are on a rickety raft.

Not really. Matter of fact, it puts you on a dingy in the middle of the pacific, while I'm on a dingy in the middle of the pacific.

[Le Communiste]

He didn't sneak in anywhere, he was visiting his father.

Understood. But still, being in a closed neighborhood when many break-ins have happened would have caused me to be suspicious if there was someone I have never seen before

[Quail]

Understood. But still, being in a closed neighborhood when many break-ins have happened would have caused me to be suspicious if there was someone I have never seen before
But the racist attitudes in the USA mean that people would be way more suspicious of a young black guy than a young white guy - and Zimmerman noted that Trayvon was black at the very beginning of the 911 call which suggests he took that into account when he became suspicious, whether consciously or not.

[Bostana]

Why?

It sounds sarcastic. I'll have you know we teens are amazing and trustworthy people

[MarxArchist]

I was at a bar till about 2 am in SF/Tenderloin last night so wasn't around the Mission or downtown Oak to witness the smash and bang but I can only assume it was once again my Anarchist comrades. If you guys could refrain from that silliness today, when larger crowds will be there, it would be great. If you want to play the vanguard role help explain why we can't reform a legal system who's priority isn't justice but the continuity of the base/superstructure that is capitalism. Get some hard core systemic analysis into peoples minds. Mingle with the crowd. Talk to people. Just yelling "racism" while smashing symbols of our racist system will accomplish what? Even if a full on race based riot broke out, as we saw in L.A. with the King verdict, what would that accomplish? Murder? Death? Did the poor community in Los Angeles walk away with a better sense of how to stop the overall problem?

Did you also ever stop to think you're reenforcing the racist public's perception that young black males are entwined with violence (I know, property damage isn't violence- most people disagree with us and think it is). It's not like I'm advocating capitulation to the system and do understand smashing BART police cars and windows of certain establishments is meant to have a propaganda effect but in a case where a young black male was killed then a not guilty verdict was handed down because of the fact many people equate being young and black with violence, turning around and using what many think is violence to protest it might be feeding the problem (in more than one way).

[MarxArchist]

No. There are two things that can happen, one is Martin's family can (and probably will) bring a wrongful death lawsuit against Zimmerman. In all likelihood, they'd probably win.

And he'll no doubt be "writing a book" and cashing in various different ways. I'd be filing the civil case tomorrow morning camped out on the courts front steps.

[RadioRaheem84]

I think we should stop bickering about the case itself and focus on the bigger implication here in that this is awakening a whole slew of dragons in contemporary society. White middle class America has been vindicated by this and judging from the comments I've seen on Yahoo, Facebook, from people in the streets, and family, this shit has reached a new boiling point. Reactionaries feel that it is their right to defend themselves against the liberal media and sense their values are under attack, as well as their territories.

I never would've thought that literal repeals of civil rights gains would happen in my generation but that is what we're witnessing. Reactionary white middle class America thinks that they have to fight back and protect themselves against the hordes of "thugs", working class, minorities and the homeless.

That's something we have to fear is middle America's reactionary violence toward people they deem as "scum".

[Invader Zim]

I think we should stop bickering about the case itself and focus on the bigger implication here in that this is awakening a whole slew of dragons in contemporary society. White middle class America has been vindicated by this and judging from the comments I've seen on Yahoo, Facebook, from people in the streets, and family, this shit has reached a new boiling point. Reactionaries feel that it is their right to defend themselves against the liberal media and sense their values are under attack, as well as their territories.

I never would've thought that literal repeals of civil rights gains would happen in my generation but that is what we're witnessing. Reactionary white middle class America thinks that they have to fight back and protect themselves against the hordes of "thugs", working class, minorities and the homeless.

That's something we have to fear is middle America's reactionary violence toward people they deem as "scum".

Exactly. That was my entire point, until F00000 decided to take that personally. The issue is not so much the verdict, but rather why the system has been developed to only allow one verdict in this kind of case and why this kind of case can even happen, and that is what should infuriate people.

[Ele'ill]

I was at a bar till about 2 am in SF/Tenderloin last night so wasn't around the Mission or downtown Oak to witness the smash and bang

u missed out



but I can only assume it was once again my Anarchist comrades. If you guys could refrain from that silliness today, when larger crowds will be there, it would be great. If you want to play the vanguard role help explain why we can't reform a legal system who's priority isn't justice but the continuity of the base/superstructure that is capitalism. Get some hard core systemic analysis into peoples minds. Mingle with the crowd. Talk to people. Just yelling "racism" while smashing symbols of our racist system will accomplish what? Even if a full on race based riot broke out, as we saw in L.A. with the King verdict, what would that accomplish? Murder? Death? Did the poor community in Los Angeles walk away with a better sense of how to stop the overall problem?

Did you also ever stop to think you're reenforcing the racist public's perception that young black males are entwined with violence (I know, property damage isn't violence- most people disagree with us and think it is). It's not like I'm advocating capitulation to the system and do understand smashing BART police cars and windows of certain establishments is meant to have a propaganda effect but in a case where a young black male was killed then a not guilty verdict was handed down because of the fact many people equate being young and black with violence, turning around and using what many think is violence to protest it might be feeding the problem (in more than one way).

So basically anarchists are the reason all of this bad stuff still exists lol

[MarxArchist]

u missed out

Not really. I missed out on the opportunity to criticize these tactics in person is all.





So basically anarchists are the reason all of this bad stuff still exists lol

No, basically your tactics are counterproductive to say the least, will impact me and the people who will be at the protest today/night and more importantly impact the image the black community is struggling with currently. Of course Anarchists being childish isn't the cause of racism but your reaction, your solution to fighting our racist system is useless.


These discussions happen every time there's some sort of gathering with Anarchists showing up and I at least usually get to have these conversations in person as will happen later today/night when I mingle with the anarchist vanguard. Ponder this for a moment, what do you think would happen if by some chance the vanguard like direct actions of Anarchists led to a city wide race riot in Oakland? Do you think this could somehow be controlled or contained? This is a different even more irresponsible aspect. Would you like to see another LA riot? What good came out of that? What sort of class consciousness? The LA riot wasn't sparked by some anarchist vanguard but it was an expression of hundreds of years of anger directed in any which way. It was a war zone full of murder, rape and destruction. Totally counterproductive in so far as fighting capitalism and fighting racism.

There was almost 4500 robberies in Oakland last year. 1 in 80 people were robbed. 4500. Let that sink in. The murder rate here is also insane. Things like this translates into most of non black America seeing black people, young black youth especially, as being dangerous. There are systemic causes for these statistics, social causes (racism combined with capitalism). They need to be addressed. Breaking windows and smashing police cars isn't going to do anything but create an even more negative image for young black youth.

[blake 3:17]

Closed.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Forgive me if this was touched on already, but I'm not as well versed on this stuff as I should be: Where does the case go from here? Can't the prosecution appeal the jury verdict?blake posted elsewhere that the fed justice is getting involved. I doubt much would come of it unless there is pressure from below.

[SonofRage]

Prosecutors can't appeal under U.S. law. Look up "double jeopardy."

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Well shuts getting interesting. Huge protest in NYC, protest in LA is marching on the freeway and getting shot with rubber bullets(if my twitter feed is correct). Protests all over the place, doesn't feel like a riot like in '92 will happen.

[bcbm]

wasn't around the Mission or downtown Oak to witness the smash and bang but I can only assume it was once again my Anarchist comrades.

way to remove agency from everyone else who ever smashed a window in rage. which is, like, a whole lot of people actually.


Did you also ever stop to think you're reenforcing the racist public's perception that young black males are entwined with violence

in my experience the media usually goes out of its way (as do many protest organizers, regardless of what actually happened) to blame these things on white outsiders (ie, anarchists).


(I know, property damage isn't violence

yes it is.


It's not like I'm advocating capitulation to the system and do understand smashing BART police cars and windows of certain establishments is meant to have a propaganda effect but in a case where a young black male was killed then a not guilty verdict was handed down because of the fact many people equate being young and black with violence, turning around and using what many think is violence to protest it might be feeding the problem (in more than one way).

there were violent riots full of smashy smashy (and much more) over these sorts of things long before there were anarchists involved.

[Le Libérer]

SOURCE (http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Protesters-Shut-Down-10-Freeway-215462921.html)

****LIVE VIDEO EMBEDDED ON WEBPAGE*****

Protesters marched onto the eastbound Interstate 10 near Arlington Avenue (map) on Sunday, shutting down the freeway for nearly an hour and leading to confrontations with police, authorities said.

Los Angeles Police Department officers fired bean bags at protesters after some people threw bottles and other objects at officers, LAPD Commander Andrew Smith told NBC4.

The mob was cleared from the roadway by about 7 p.m., when LAPD officers began firing rubber bullets, protesters said. Some of the first tweets showing photos of people on the freeway were posted shortly after 6 p.m.

The protest was one of at least two major ones in the city, beginning about 4 p.m. at Martin Luther King Jr and Crenshaw boulevards.

The protesters took to the streets to protest a day after Florida jurors found George Zimmerman not guilty in the killing of Trayvon Martin.

Several people were struck by bean bags in a shopping center near 10th Avenue and Washington Boulevard in Mid-City, said Jasmyne Cannick, who tweeted photos of the protesters and said she and an attorney were observing the rally.

"They're in pain and I don't know what's going to happen to them," Cannick said.

She said that protesters seemed confused and panicked once officers began firing the bean bags at them from multiple sides.

Photos on social media showed a large group of people walking on the freeway with no cars in sight. Several of the people held signs and banners.

Twitter user Jasmyne Cannick (@jasmyne) tweeted "We are literally walking on the 10 freeway for Trayvon Martin! #NoJustice"

The Los Angeles Police Department has been placed on tactical alert.

[blake 3:17]

Closed. Didn't actually close it the last time.

[blake 3:17]

From CoR and the last post of previous thread:

SOURCE

****LIVE VIDEO EMBEDDED ON WEBPAGE*****

Protesters marched onto the eastbound Interstate 10 near Arlington Avenue (map) on Sunday, shutting down the freeway for nearly an hour and leading to confrontations with police, authorities said.

Los Angeles Police Department officers fired bean bags at protesters after some people threw bottles and other objects at officers, LAPD Commander Andrew Smith told NBC4.

The mob was cleared from the roadway by about 7 p.m., when LAPD officers began firing rubber bullets, protesters said. Some of the first tweets showing photos of people on the freeway were posted shortly after 6 p.m.

The protest was one of at least two major ones in the city, beginning about 4 p.m. at Martin Luther King Jr and Crenshaw boulevards.

The protesters took to the streets to protest a day after Florida jurors found George Zimmerman not guilty in the killing of Trayvon Martin.

Several people were struck by bean bags in a shopping center near 10th Avenue and Washington Boulevard in Mid-City, said Jasmyne Cannick, who tweeted photos of the protesters and said she and an attorney were observing the rally.

"They're in pain and I don't know what's going to happen to them," Cannick said.

She said that protesters seemed confused and panicked once officers began firing the bean bags at them from multiple sides.

Photos on social media showed a large group of people walking on the freeway with no cars in sight. Several of the people held signs and banners.

Twitter user Jasmyne Cannick (@jasmyne) tweeted "We are literally walking on the 10 freeway for Trayvon Martin! #NoJustice"

The Los Angeles Police Department has been placed on tactical alert.

[RadioRaheem84]

Why are there so many reactionaries online? I don't get it. Yahoo News and FB comments attached to articles are full of racist reactionary comments.

They're scary too! They're talking about getting armed and if some blacks come after them they will strike first. It seems like there are way too many reactionaries out there. Too many to ever win over, to ever effect change.

:crying:

[MarxArchist]

way to remove agency from everyone else who ever smashed a window in rage. which is, like, a whole lot of people actually. In my experience the media usually goes out of its way (as do many protest organizers, regardless of what actually happened) to blame these things on white outsiders (ie, anarchists).


I wasn't there last night and just got home from 14'th st just now before dark tonight. The video's from last night of foot locker, a bank or two and police cars being smashed showed white people in black doing it.




yes it is.

Na, I don't think property damage is violence but when the vanguard does these things it could very well escalate into some serious city wide violence. I'd rather not help create a post apocalyptic war zone here in Oakland and the emotion involved (justified emotion) has the potential to manifest in just that, a war zone, in a city already bordering on such. These are dangerous methods people are toying with. Methods with the potential to set off a powder keg, a powder keg built 100% from racism but is it the role of the white radical, the anarchist, to light the fuse?




there were violent riots full of smashy smashy (and much more) over these sorts of things long before there were anarchists involved.

Ya I know, the LA riots and previous riots had nothing to do with anarchists and the anger was justified but it was a desperate anger pointed at everything and everyone. The previous Watts riots, again, the anger 100% justified but what were the outcomes? Class consciousness? The end of racism? This is, quite honestly, the Marxist theory in me wishing peoples justified anger and willingness to revolt could be funneled into a more focused point. People of color, black people especially, have been brutalized in America and the desire/willingness to get seriously violent in the face of that is totally understandable and indeed justifiable. I just think if any sort of 'vanguard' activity is going to take place it should attempt to focus more on breaking down the system of racism that is intrinsically linked to the system of capitalism rather than have racial tension escalate to the point where murder and mayhem is the norm for a day or two.

Of course this is the 'norm' young black males have to deal with each day and i wouldn't have stood on the streets of LA with a bullhorn yelling "stop the violence" but I most certainly wouldn't have been out there bashing peoples faces in with bricks and setting fire to everything in sight. In the future, actually in the present, if the black community is instigated to this point by racism/our racist system I also wouldn't be the one out in the streets throwing the first stone so to speak.

A positive aspect, to be honest, is anarchists are in a way showing solidarity in so setting the foundation of different dynamics than we saw in Watts/LA but it should be more of a back seat not taking the lead sort of solidarity. It's all very complex. On the other hand we have people like the RCP who are taking the role of vanguard within the black community in different ways than anarchists are. Not to toot Bob's horn but I think, on a daily basis, mixing it up in poor black neighborhoods with people of color who are communists might be a better approach than burning, breaking and smashing things every time there's a serious racial issue in America.

Is an LA riot scenario something you'd want to see? I don't think it's likely with the Martin case but you and I both know this won't be the last time a young black male is murdered without justice being handed down. These are serious things we're all taking part in and should be discussed in an open honest manner.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

So what's the subtitle to this sorry sequel of a thread? "The Revenge"?