Scandinavians genetically tall or memetically tall?

[cyu]

http://scienceblog.com/3901/men-from-middle-ages-were-nearly-as-tall-as-today/

Northern European men living during the early Middle Ages were nearly as tall as their modern-day American descendants

Average height declined slightly during the 12th through 16th centuries, and hit an all-time low during the 17th and 18th centuries.

a variety of factors contributed to the drop. climate change; the growth of cities and the resulting spread of communicable diseases; changes in political structures; and changes in agricultural production.

Average height is a good way to measure the availability and consumption of basic necessities such as food, clothing, shelter, medical care and exposure to disease

Height studies for the late 18th and early 19th centuries show that large cities were particularly hazardous for health. Urban centers were reservoirs for the spread of communicable diseases.

Inequality in Europe grew considerably during the 16th century and stayed high until the 20th century — the rich grew richer from soaring land rents while the poor paid higher prices for food, housing and land.

In poor countries, or among the poor in moderate-income nations, large numbers of people are biologically stressed or deprived

[Rubber Duck]

I find the study of height kind of fascinating. I don't think it's not so much a genetic thing as an environmental, as there are tall people as there and short people in every society. Sure genetics build a framework, but proper nutrition and a proper environment allow people to increase their height.

[TaylorS]

Mediterranean peoples in Classical times almost universally portrayed northern Europeans are very tall. This stills seems to be true, today. I am of average height (5' 9"), but I live in an area dominated by Scandinavian-Americans and I feel really, really short, and it seems like every third woman I run into is my height or taller. :laugh:

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I know they've found stone-age (mesolithic era iirc) graves in Sweden (I think) containing the bodies of tall (and pretty long-lived) people (I think the oldest person interred there had died in their mid-sixties)

I'll see if I can dig up my first-year notes for a bit more detail.

[the debater]

Mediterranean peoples in Classical times almost universally portrayed northern Europeans are very tall. This stills seems to be true, today. I am of average height (5' 9"), but I live in an area dominated by Scandinavian-Americans and I feel really, really short, and it seems like every third woman I run into is my height or taller. :laugh:

Right now I'm going to college in Wisconsin, and it does seem as if there are plenty of tall women and tall men. I'm roughly in the 5'9"-5'10" category, and yet I still feel somewhat below average sometimes. Not all that uncommon to see a guy who's 6'2" or taller when you're waiting in line to order food from an on-campus restaurant. Usually though, it's the white and black people who are the tall ones. Hispanics and Asians, not so much.

[Skyhilist]

Honestly height is at least mostly genetic. That's why if you know your mother's height and your father's height you can usually predict what your adult height will be within 2-3 inches. The reason our ancestors are shorter is because we've evolved to be taller than we were back then.
The nature vs nurture thing isn't really all black and white for everything. Some things are nature, some things are nurture, some things are both.

Given that the mean height for people of any given ethnicity seems to be approximately the same regardless of where in the world they live, I'd say it's safe to conclude that this one is mostly nature, although certainly some things (e.g. Caffeine intake) might affect someone's height.

[the debater]

Honestly height is at least mostly genetic. That's why if you know your mother's height and your father's height you can usually predict what your adult height will be within 2-3 inches. The reason our ancestors are shorter is because we've evolved to be taller than we were back then.
The nature vs nurture thing isn't really all black and white for everything. Some things are nature, some things are nurture, some things are both.

Given that the mean height for people of any given ethnicity seems to be approximately the same regardless of where in the world they live, I'd say it's safe to conclude that this one is mostly nature, although certainly some things (e.g. Caffeine intake) might affect someone's height.

Plus, I think you also have to drink milk, get more protein in your diet, and get a decent amount of sleep. Not sure what effect either weightlifting or obesity has on height though.

[TaylorS]

I know they've found stone-age (mesolithic era iirc) graves in Sweden (I think) containing the bodies of tall (and pretty long-lived) people (I think the oldest person interred there had died in their mid-sixties)

I'll see if I can dig up my first-year notes for a bit more detail.That is not suprising, Mesolithic NW Europeans were very healthy. They lived in a very rich environment similar to the Pacific North-West that allowed sedentary living without farming.

[Sasha]

Yeah, and like said above, lots of cow milk in the diet makes a lot of difference.

[Luisrah]

Honestly height is at least mostly genetic. That's why if you know your mother's height and your father's height you can usually predict what your adult height will be within 2-3 inches. The reason our ancestors are shorter is because we've evolved to be taller than we were back then.
The nature vs nurture thing isn't really all black and white for everything. Some things are nature, some things are nurture, some things are both.

Given that the mean height for people of any given ethnicity seems to be approximately the same regardless of where in the world they live, I'd say it's safe to conclude that this one is mostly nature, although certainly some things (e.g. Caffeine intake) might affect someone's height.

We've evolved to be taller? Can you explain that?

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

Here we go! The cemetary is in a place called Skateholm (http://archaeology.about.com/od/skthroughsp/qt/Skateholm.htm) in Sweden. There are links to other articles about late mesolithic sites too. There is a lot of interesting stuff about it and somewhere there should be things linking in to this debate.

[argeiphontes]

What about Bergmann's Rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergmann%27s_rule)? Maybe that would account for why tall genes were preferred in Northern climates. (A larger body size overall.)

[cyu]

People tend to speak the same language as their parents, eat the same kinds of foods as their parents, have similar access to salt, tobacco, or protein as their parents, do similar amounts of physical activity as their parents do, have similar emphasis on on physical well-being as their parents do (either that or their parents force them to have a similar emphasis), and have a similar social class as their parents.

I'm not sure that is genetic.

[Sea]

http://scienceblog.com/3901/men-from-middle-ages-were-nearly-as-tall-as-today/

Northern European men living during the early Middle Ages were nearly as tall as their modern-day American descendants

Average height declined slightly during the 12th through 16th centuries, and hit an all-time low during the 17th and 18th centuries.

a variety of factors contributed to the drop. climate change; the growth of cities and the resulting spread of communicable diseases; changes in political structures; and changes in agricultural production.

Average height is a good way to measure the availability and consumption of basic necessities such as food, clothing, shelter, medical care and exposure to disease

Height studies for the late 18th and early 19th centuries show that large cities were particularly hazardous for health. Urban centers were reservoirs for the spread of communicable diseases.

Inequality in Europe grew considerably during the 16th century and stayed high until the 20th century — the rich grew richer from soaring land rents while the poor paid higher prices for food, housing and land.

In poor countries, or among the poor in moderate-income nations, large numbers of people are biologically stressed or deprivedJust as an aside, you may want to flip through Capital, Vol 1, chapter 10 for some insights into this. The physical condition of people under nearly unrestricted capitalistic exploitation is brought up several times, height included.