Stalin ordered the Katyn Forest Massacre

[el_profe]

I saw this documentary of the Katyn forrest massacre on History channel, I did not know about this massacre.

In 1939 when the poles where attacked by germany and then by USSR(another o****ry attacked by Stalin for no reason), many officers and soldiers surrender to the soviets. The soviets put these soldiers and officers in work camps. But in 1940, Stalin ordered the killing of polish soldiers and officers(INCLUDING GENERALS) prisoners of war. Stalin knew that these officers might threaten his attemp to keep poland after the war so he had over 20,000 soldiers and officers executed. In The Katyn forrest 4,500 officers where executed and buried in a huge hole in the ground by the Soviet secret police, the NKVD. This site was discoverd by the nazis in 1943 when they had total control of poland. Other sites containing more soldiers and officers where later discovered.

quote from one of the sites I will post:

Although the total of the Stalin order is given as 25,700, I understand that a 3rd March, 1959 KGB report by KGB head Aleksandr Shelepin, gives the figure of 21,857 as the number of Poles actually shot as a result of this order.


4,421 in the Katyn Forest (Smolensk region)
3,820 in the Starobelsk camp (near Kharkov)
6,311 in the Ostashkovo camp (Kalinin region)
7,305 in other camps and prisons in western Ukraine and western Belorussia

I just put this to see what the stalin supportes who deny he was a murderer think about this.

Here are some links:
http://www.katyn.org.au

http://econc10.bu.edu/economic_systems/nat...land/KATYN.html (http://econc10.bu.edu/economic_systems/natidentity/ee/poland/KATYN.html)



http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Russian+m...n=20&fl=0&x=wrt (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/450271.stm)http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/450271.stm

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Katyn+for...n=20&fl=0&x=wrt (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Katyn+forest+massacre&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-tab-web-t&n=20&fl=0&x=wrt)


Stalin's order for the KATYN FOREST MASSACRE
http://www.katyn.org.au/beria.html
http://www.corax.org/revisionism/documents...katynorder.html (http://www.corax.org/revisionism/documents/19400305katynorder.html)

and one more:
http://www.polandsholocaust.org/Katyn1.html

[Loknar]

This has been proven. When Polish POW's in terran were turned over to the brits there were no officers among them.

[Bolshevika]

Yes, I saw this piece of garbage on the History Channel (US government run propaganda channel that runs Army commercials every 5 minutes) . This is so bloody obvious when right after the documentary on this event they showed another one glorifying a white Russian fascist British spy that attempted to overthrow the Bolsheviks.

Blaming Stalin for the Katyn Forest shooting is based on pure speculation. It was first found and used against Stalin by the Nazi Germans during the 1943 anti-Soviet propaganda groups, however the western leaders said this was not true, that the Nazi's themselves had orchestrated this. Stalin sent a comission of scientists to study it and they said the same. However, during the days of the cold war, Washington sent a comission of its own scientists to study the Katyn incident, and they claim it was ordered by Stalin. The only thing the documents from Soviet archives acknowlege was that these Poles were taken prisoner, nothing else.

Tell me capitalist, what makes the Soviet, pre-cold war western scientists liars and the Nazi German, post-socialism Polish, and American scientists honest? Both sides have reasons to lie. During the Nurembourg trials Nazis were charged with these war crimes.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 06:38 AM
Yes, I saw this piece of garbage on the History Channel (US government run propaganda channel that runs Army commercials every 5 minutes) . This is so bloody obvious when right after the documentary on this event they showed another one glorifying a white Russian fascist British spy that attempted to overthrow the Bolsheviks.


JAJAJA, you got your info from the History channel also.

IT really is unbelivable what a 14 year old will do to defend his hero (KIDS SAY THE DARNEST THINGS) :lol: :lol:

obviously you didnt see any of my links.

And you didnt see that OFFICIAL RECORDS of the Soviet union showed this did happen. I already gave you two link showing this.

pure speculation, jajaja.

The polish gov. living in exil went to meet with Stalin to demand to know what had happened to these prisoners. Stalin, said he would "look into the matter".


It was first found and used against Stalin by the Nazi Germans during the 1943 anti-Soviet propaganda groups, however the western leaders said this was not true, that the Nazi's themselves had orchestrated this. Stalin sent a comission of scientists to study it and they said the same. However, during the days of the cold war, Washington sent a comission of its own scientists to study the Katyn incident, and they claim it was ordered by Stalin. The only thing the documents from Soviet archives acknowlege was that these Poles were taken prisoner, nothing else.

I already pointed it was found by the germans, the thing is a polish civilian led them to the site.
Western leaders said its not true? At the time they decided not to do anything because the russians where their allies. IN fact:

"Finally, between September, 1951 and December, 1952, a Select Committee of the U.S Congress stepped in to investigate this horrible crime. This committee held hearings in six cities and four countries, received testimony from 81 witnesses and took depositions from another 100 who could not appear in person. Its published report of 2,162 pages filled seven volumes. In many ways, this investigation was Congress at its best. It meticulously assembled a body of fact that left no doubt about its principal conclusions: first, that the Soviets were guilty; and second, that the State Department and Army Intelligence (G-2) had engaged in a determined effort to shield the American people from the truth."
http://www.house.gov/kanjorski/03_04_04Kat...resentation.htm (http://www.house.gov/kanjorski/03_04_04KatynPresentation.htm)

http://www.videofact.com/katyn2.htm

another quote:
"In 1989 Soviet scholars revealed that Joseph Stalin had indeed ordered the massacre, and in 1990 Mikhail Gorbachev admitted that the Narodny Kommisariat Vnutrennikh Del (NKVD) had executed the Poles, confirmed two other burial sites similar to the site at Katyn. In 1992, with the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russian officials released the order, signed by Joseph Stalin and dated March 1940, to execute by shooting some 25,700 Poles. "

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre


Stalins scientis, where forced to say the nazis did that, IN FACT, some reporters and some americans and british, where sent to the same investigation and ONE OF THE REPORTERS ASKED WHY THE DEAD SOLDIERS HAD WINTER CLOTHING when they where supposably killed in spring?? They gave some lame answer (i forgot what it was :( )

2nd. Some prisoners had newspapers and letters, the thing is none of the letters or newspapers dating after april or/and march 1940. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Blaming Stalin for the Katyn Forest shooting is based on pure speculation.
Tell me capitalist, what makes the Soviet, pre-cold war western scientists liars and the Nazi German, post-socialism Polish, and American scientists honest? Both sides have reasons to lie. During the Nurembourg trials Nazis were charged with these war crimes.
Speculation?, the soviets admitted it, and the records show it.
Nazis where charged by the soviets but the other allies protested that charge, and

"Polish Government in Exile, residing in wartime London, requested International Red Cross to investigate. USSR government did not agree with that and considering such a request as an unfriendly act, ended its diplomatic relations with Poles.
The Soviet prosecutor of the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal in his summation of the charges against Goering never mentioned the Katyn massacre. The Soviet prosecutor failed to prove the case of Katyn massacre against the Germans, therefore the matter was dropped by the tribunal. "

It really is amazing that you deny it, the worst part is, probably someone else on this site will. JAJAJA

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 06:38 AM
Blaming Stalin for the Katyn Forest shooting is based on pure speculation. It was first found and used against Stalin by the Nazi Germans during the 1943 anti-Soviet propaganda groups, however the western leaders said this was not true, that the Nazi's themselves had orchestrated this. Stalin sent a comission of scientists to study it and they said the same. However, during the days of the cold war, Washington sent a comission of its own scientists to study the Katyn incident, and they claim it was ordered by Stalin. The only thing the documents from Soviet archives acknowlege was that these Poles were taken prisoner, nothing else.

This is not unusual in war. I have a documentary made in 1944/45 for US army recruits. I especially loved the part on Russia, it claimed that Russia was a peace loving democracy and a tolerant religious state. It also claimed Chang Kai Shek was a swell fella. I nearly fell out of my seat. And those ware criminals, that is what happens when one looses. DO you think POW's were treated well by the red army? Of the 100,000 Germans who surrendered at Stalingrad only 5,-000 returned home, many 10 years after the war ended. I have admiration for Stalin, just as I do for other leaders whom have a different political ideology, but unlike you I am not so blind as to deny their crimes or successes.

[Deniz Gezmis]

The polish gov. living in exil went to meet with Stalin to demand to know what had happened to these prisoners. Stalin, said he would "look into the matter".

Wrong. Stalin refused to comment on the matter.
You could possibly be talking about the treatment of "Free" Polish soldiers that were being trained in the Soviet Union.

[redstar2000]

Stalin killed all these Polish prisoners of war?

Weren't they all officers?

Well, here are some details that the History Channel probably didn't think necessary to mention.

In 1939, Poland was run by a clerical fascist regime. Its official and vicious anti-semitism was exceeded only by the Third Reich itself. (Gives you an idea of where Pope John Paul II got his ideas.)

As you might imagine--Stalin certainly did--the Polish officer corps doubtlessly included the worst Polish fascist bastards on the planet.

So...he had the scumbags shot.

In total violation, of course, of the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of prisoners of war. Stalin was not a nice man.

On the other hand, am I supposed to be "outraged" by this "atrocity"? Sorry, my outrage is all taken up by current American atrocities.

And, by the way, if it were possible to massacre all the military officers in every country in the world...that would certainly be a very good thing.

Don't you agree?

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Soviet power supreme]

http://www.polandsholocaust.org/katyndiary.html

October 20 This morning we smoked machorowka which Jozio* bought for 2.50. Further news: Finland is defending herself against Russia, and Sweden and Norway have joined her. The Germans are near Hrubieszow [...] Great Poland is still defending herself. Vivat! [*Jozef Szmalstych, classmate from Krzemieniec Lyceum, executed at Katyn.]

I read the diary and find this with amazement.How did this man know about the war month before the actual war began.

And yes when we study USSR's history, the Nazis are the one we trust.
http://www.katyn.org.au/

http://www.katyn.org.au/beria.html (http://www.katyn.org.au/beria.html)
http://www.corax.org/revisionism/documents...katynorder.html (http://www.corax.org/revisionism/documents/19400305katynorder.html)

[timbaly]

I'm definetely not going to deny something like this especially since the Soviet archives actually prove this incident did occur. If anyone can remember was this the one incident that Cassius Clay said Stalin could be gulity of?

[Loknar]

How do the soviet archives disprove it? pro and anti Stalinists both claim that the soviet archives support their position on virtually everything having to do with Stalin.

[Vinny Rafarino]

The Katyn forrest 4,500 officers where executed and buried in a huge hole in the ground by the Soviet secret police, the NKVD


Too good a fate. I personally would have liked to have had them all transported back to Moscow where they would be publically executed by the people of the USSR. Unfortulately, that was an impossibility, so they were shot.

Bravo.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 10:48 AM

The polish gov. living in exil went to meet with Stalin to demand to know what had happened to these prisoners. Stalin, said he would "look into the matter".

Wrong. Stalin refused to comment on the matter.
You could possibly be talking about the treatment of "Free" Polish soldiers that were being trained in the Soviet Union.
stalin said "he would look into the matter". Besides even if he did not comments, what does this have to do with anything.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 12:32 PM
Stalin killed all these Polish prisoners of war?

Weren't they all officers?

Well, here are some details that the History Channel probably didn't think necessary to mention.

In 1939, Poland was run by a clerical fascist regime. Its official and vicious anti-semitism was exceeded only by the Third Reich itself. (Gives you an idea of where Pope John Paul II got his ideas.)

As you might imagine--Stalin certainly did--the Polish officer corps doubtlessly included the worst Polish fascist bastards on the planet.

So...he had the scumbags shot.

In total violation, of course, of the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of prisoners of war. Stalin was not a nice man.

On the other hand, am I supposed to be "outraged" by this "atrocity"? Sorry, my outrage is all taken up by current American atrocities.

And, by the way, if it were possible to massacre all the military officers in every country in the world...that would certainly be a very good thing.

Don't you agree?

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas
If it was so anti-semitic, why where polish jews left when hitler go their?

Officers, they where all fascist? how about the soldiers that where killed?

4,500 officers where all fascist.

So any low ranking officer like a liutenint deserved to die?

[el_profe]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 11 2004, 10:19 PM

The Katyn forrest 4,500 officers where executed and buried in a huge hole in the ground by the Soviet secret police, the NKVD


Too good a fate. I personally would have liked to have had them all transported back to Moscow where they would be publically executed by the people of the USSR. Unfortulately, that was an impossibility, so they were shot.

Bravo.
:o do you know what an officer is?
most officers where low ranking oficers, liutenant, captain.
Why did you think it was justified to kill them.

Also everyone is overlooking the fact that stalin attacked polan, why would he attack poland??

[Vinny Rafarino]

Ahh-fi-sir??? Well golly clem..I ain't got no idea what one o' dem are?



I believe RS already anwered your question. I can care less if they were standard enlisted men. Examples will be made.


Once again, get over it, I can give a fuck all about what you think.

[BuyOurEverything]

If it was so anti-semitic, why where polish jews left when hitler go their?


What are you trying to say? Are you trying to deny that Poland was violently anti-semetic?

[redstar2000]

If it was so anti-semitic, why were Polish Jews left when Hitler got there?

You didn't read carefully. Poland had the same kinds of anti-semitic laws as Germany had...but Poland did not kill all their Jews (unlike Germany).

So when I said that Polish anti-semitism was exceeded only by the Third Reich itself...I was referring to the fact that only Germany itself was worse than Poland.


Officers, they were all fascist?

It is quite likely that most of them were. Latin America is not the only continent where the military is "pre-disposed" to oppression and dictatorship.


So any low ranking officer like a lieutenant deserved to die?

What do you mean "deserve"?

Whatever you might mean, they certainly "deserved" it far more than the civilians killed during the war on all sides.

And, I remind you, I did say that Stalin was not a nice man. Others were quite a bit worse...including not only the Nazis and the Japanese but also Churchill and Truman.

Massacre of the defenseless was the norm in World War II.

It was not "the good war".

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Bolshevika]

I believe prior to the Bolshevik revolution Poland or most of it was Czarist province.

Why does El_Profe cry when 4,000 soldiers are shot? Didn't the Americans kill something like 100,000 in Gulf War 1? How about the 1 million Vietnamese killed? Mostly, how about the nuclear holocaust in Japan that killed mostly civilians?

These were all pre emptive, illegal invasions with no justifications (Except for WWII), if this was orchestrated by Soviet NKVD people than I don't see the big deal, it is overshadowed by American nuclear holocaust. .

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 11:22 PM
I believe prior to the Bolshevik revolution Poland or most of it was Czarist province.

Why does El_Profe cry when 4,000 soldiers are shot? Didn't the Americans kill something like 100,000 in Gulf War 1? How about the 1 million Vietnamese killed? Mostly, how about the nuclear holocaust in Japan that killed mostly civilians?

These were all pre emptive, illegal invasions with no justifications (Except for WWII), if this was orchestrated by Soviet NKVD people than I don't see the big deal, it is overshadowed by American nuclear holocaust. .
So now you do admitted, what changed your mind?

It was more like 20,000 killed by stalins ordered, regular soldiers and even some civilians.

In katyn they found 4,500. They where executed most with their hands tied behjind their hands.

Amazing that you people justify these actions, they where prisoners of war, they where defending their country by the way why the fuck did the russins invade poland?
And bolshevika the 1 milliion killed by americans in "unjustified wars" is far less than the millions killed by Stalin and the USSR.

Dont forget that in vietnam the USSR helped north vietnam with weapons and money, so the USA helped the south.

Japan, more civilians and soldiers would of died if tehy would of invaded japan.

[Vinny Rafarino]

They where executed most with their hands tied behjind their hands.


That's usually how people are executed you know.



It was more like 20,000 killed by stalins ordered, regular soldiers and even some civilians

Actually, I think the number was 88,000. You forgot about the 68,000 virgins that were brought back to Moscow to sacrifice to Stalin.


Amazing that you people justify these actions

Hey! I thought that yanquis only reserved the "you people" line for all them "pesky negroes an' homos".



by the way why the fuck did the russins invade poland?


'Cos them damn Pols kept calling them "Russins".





Japan, more civilians and soldiers would of died if tehy would of invaded japan.


Yeeeeeee Haaaaaaaaaw!!!!

[ComradeRobertRiley]

This thread has so much humour in it, its the funniest thread ive read in a long time.

BTW, I will not lose any sleep over fascist being shot. Actually I may sleep better.

[synthesis]

The Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings Were Unnecessary (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/usgenocide/HiroshimaNagasaki.html)

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 12:18 AM
This thread has so much humour in it, its the funniest thread ive read in a long time.

BTW, I will not lose any sleep over fascist being shot. Actually I may sleep better.
So if it where up to you, you would of executed all the german soldiers, I am talking about the regular soldiers from the german army. And poland never invaded anyone their soldiers where just defending themselves.
Youre(and eveyrone who justifies these actions) a sick fuck for justifying the killing of those soldiers.

ALL(most) of you just hurt communism. With your stupid way of thinking and justifying and denying the atrocities commited by the USSR you only get people to turn on you and hate communism.
All the kids they have on this forum, saying: Stalin was a great leader, he never killed anyone, or they justify his actions, and sadly its not only the kids that do this.

MOST of you talk about a revolution and killing rich people, when most of you are white and rich or middle class and havent even fired a gun and dont even have tha balls to start or join a guerilla. Then you talk of how great cuba is, but none of you want to move there or have even been their.

all of the stupid people on this board that deny and justify mass murders by your idols, just hurt the communist cause. :lol: :lol:

[ComradeRobertRiley]

No.

If they are fascist they should die, if they are not facists they they maybe shouldnt die. It depends on the individual. Dont make stuff out and pretend I said it.

[Bolshevika]

So now you do admitted, what changed your mind?

No I do not admit it, I am purely speculating.


It was more like 20,000 killed by stalins ordered, regular soldiers and even some civilians.

I think Comrade RAF had it about right.


In katyn they found 4,500. They where executed most with their hands tied behjind their hands.

That doesn't seem that bad compared how we used to execute prisoners in the USA, through electric chair.


Amazing that you people justify these actions, they where prisoners of war, they where defending their country by the way why the fuck did the russins invade poland?

Boohoo, cry me a river. As RS said, they were defending christian clerical fascism and to my knowlege were not conscripted, so I say good riddance.

I've said this already, parts of Poland are rightfully Russia's and other parts are rightfully Germany's. I don't even think Poland should exist actually.



And bolshevika the 1 milliion killed by americans in "unjustified wars" is far less than the millions killed by Stalin and the USSR.

Oh please :rolleyes: he only "killed millions" if you count the Ukraine famine.



Dont forget that in vietnam the USSR helped north vietnam with weapons and money, so the USA helped the south.

Um yeah, but the USSR didn't send its army into North Vietnam, the United States did. They tried to keep a fascist militarist capitalist that was extremely unpopular in comparison to Ho Chi Minh, who even Eisenhower said would win if there was an election in VietNam.

[synthesis]

When you sign up for an army, you are signifying that you are willing to die for the interests which that army represents. The Soviets were merely taking the Polish up on that offer.

Perhaps if the Polish officers represented interests other than anti-Semitism, authoritarianism, and papal fascism, the Russians would have had less reason to challenge their right to existence.

(How's that for a euphemism? :lol: )

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 12:54 AM
The Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings Were Unnecessary (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/usgenocide/HiroshimaNagasaki.html)
Its great how they make it look like the USA was the only one bombig cities to destroy morale. This was how war was fought, everyone was bombing citires.
Even the Germans whee developing a long range bomber to drop bombs on New york.

Of course the Untide states didnt want russia in that war, they knew the russinas where going to want part of japan just like they wanted half of europe.

at the end they say, ITaly and Germany primarily defeated by the Russinas. JAJAJA. Yes I forgot the allies took italy and france and then let the russians take berlin. Talk about a biased source.

Many of you here are also mad that the USA let japan keep his emperor. And now you give me this thing saying the USA had to let them keep their emperor (which they did).

Really it shows no good evidence on why the Bombs shouldnt of been dropped, if the japans where so eager to surrender why did many high ranking military men killed themselves when japans surrender?why where they using kamikazes?...
Lams, it was either an invasion of Japan or the bombs.


When you sign up for an army, you are signifying that you are willing to die for the interests which that army represents. The Soviets were merely taking the Polish up on that offer.

Perhaps if the Polish officers represented interests other than anti-Semitism, authoritarianism, and papal fascism, the Russians would have had less reason to challenge their right to existence.

(How's that for a euphemism? )
Are you talkina bout the USSR army?? anti-semitism, authoritarianism.
Youre a fucking mron saying these soldiers needed to be killed, they where prisoners of war, and if they where fascist why the fuck did the russians let them fight when germany attacked russia?

Your saying all german,italian and polish soldiers deserved todie. That is fcked up.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 01:06 AM

In katyn they found 4,500. They where executed most with their hands tied behjind their hands.

That doesn't seem that bad compared how we used to execute prisoners in the USA, through electric chair.




HMM, yet the USa does not use execution by the rifle because it is considered too violent, do you want the USA to go back to executing people with guns? Oh yues you do cause up till like 5 years ago castro did that, and of course saddam did that, and Stalin, and the taliban....



And bolshevika the 1 milliion killed by americans in "unjustified wars" is far less than the millions killed by Stalin and the USSR.

Oh please :rolleyes: he only "killed millions" if you count the Ukraine famine.
:blink: :o , KIDS do say the darnest things. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Im tired of giving facts and numbers, some of you will accept the facts in 5 or 3 years, and sadly some will never accept them.



Dont forget that in vietnam the USSR helped north vietnam with weapons and money, so the USA helped the south.

Um yeah, but the USSR didn't send its army into North Vietnam, the United States did. They tried to keep a fascist militarist capitalist that was extremely unpopular in comparison to Ho Chi Minh, who even Eisenhower said would win if there was an election in VietNam.
Wrong, russians flew migs in North korea.

[synthesis]

Your saying all german,italian and polish soldiers deserved todie. That is fcked up.

There is a distinct difference between drafted soldiers and volunteered soldiers.


Its great how they make it look like the USA was the only one bombig cities to destroy morale. This was how war was fought, everyone was bombing citires.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/t...ke-a-right.html (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html)


Of course the Untide states didnt want russia in that war, they knew the russinas where going to want part of japan just like they wanted half of europe.

So that makes the murder of 230,000 or more innocent civilians acceptable?

Wait - I thought it was to prevent having to launch a full-scale invasion. Why aren't you denying this Russian-competition business?


at the end they say, ITaly and Germany primarily defeated by the Russinas. JAJAJA. Yes I forgot the allies took italy and france and then let the russians take berlin. Talk about a biased source.

What?


Really it shows no good evidence on why the Bombs shouldnt of been dropped

It does not need to show evidence as to why the bombs shouldn't have been dropped. It merely discredits the evidence used to show that the bombs should have been dropped in the first place.

[Osman Ghazi]

Wrong, russians flew migs in North korea.
That isn't true. Where did you hear that? In fact, Vietnam wasn't supported by Russia at all and only a little by China as they were more interested in helping Nam's mortal enemy Cambodia.

Secondly, and im not trying to defend Stalin here as he was a crual brutal man who was interested only in expanding and sustaining his power, but in the interwar years after poland gained independance, they invaded the Russians and also helped the White Army during the civil war.

Personally i think dropping the bomb was totally justified as the only solution to the Japanese people's unbreakable morale.
However as Hemingway said "never think that war, no matter how justified, is not a crime."

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 02:15 AM

Your saying all german,italian and polish soldiers deserved todie. That is fcked up.

There is a distinct difference between drafted soldiers and volunteered soldiers.





Even if you volunteer to defend your country????



Its great how they make it look like the USA was the only one bombig cities to destroy morale. This was how war was fought, everyone was bombing citires.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/t...ke-a-right.html (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html)
That has nothing to do with what I said, The USA did not justify the bombings by sying japan would attack them, JAPAN DID ATTACK FIRST, Just like germany bombed Germany first, and england had to fight back the same way.



Of course the Untide states didnt want russia in that war, they knew the russinas where going to want part of japan just like they wanted half of europe.

So that makes the murder of 230,000 or more innocent civilians acceptable?

Wait - I thought it was to prevent having to launch a full-scale invasion. Why aren't you denying this Russian-competition business?
The USA did not drop the bombs because they didnt want the Russians in the war. It might of influenced in the desicion, but the desicion was made because they wanted to end the war, It had gone on long enough. More civilians would of died in an invasion, and more soldiers on both sides.



at the end they say, ITaly and Germany primarily defeated by the Russinas. JAJAJA. Yes I forgot the allies took italy and france and then let the russians take berlin. Talk about a biased source.

What?
At the end of the first article it said : Italy and germany where primarily defeated by the Russians, the author forgets that therest of the allies took north africa, Italy , and western europe.

[Germanator]

You people can't defend Stalin. He's responsible for the deaths of millions and the suffering of millions more. Cry "propaganda" all you want, but you can't refute the eyewitness testimony of millions of Russians, or the Soviet records. He was not a good man. End of story.

[General A.A.Vlasov]

el_profe...We are tottally agree with you!

Bolshevika...KA:"Shut up, you silly little girl, if have NO facts about it! You defending stalin, just like a...father. It is very silly!

redstar2000...KA:" I don't care if you are mod! I'll tell the true!...


In 1939, Poland was run by a clerical fascist regime. Its official and vicious anti-semitism was exceeded only by the Third Reich itself.
This is bullshit!...why then hitler attaked Poland if he could DEAL with them and make them to be his ally in war against USSR!? :huh:


As you might imagine--Stalin certainly did--the Polish officer corps doubtlessly included the worst Polish fascist bastards on the planet.
This is your second buulshit!...EVEREONE!? 4,500 officers where all fascists!? :huh:


And, by the way, if it were possible to massacre all the military officers in every country in the world...that would certainly be a very good thing.
Ha! If you were a private member, you would be restricted or banned for such an idiotic and bloody message! :angry:

bolshevika...


Why does El_Profe cry when 4,000 soldiers are shot? Didn't the Americans kill something like 100,000 in Gulf War 1? How about the 1 million Vietnamese killed? Mostly, how about the nuclear holocaust in Japan that killed mostly civilians?
We hate yankee for this! BUT, don't try to change the topic!

COMRADE RAF...your last post was the most stupid thing in this topic! :angry:

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

HMM, yet the USa does not use execution by the rifle because it is considered too violent

No, because it's too humane. A rifle shot to the skull will kill instantly, if rather messily.

A slow death by electrocution is sadistic.

[Osman Ghazi]

At the end of the first article it said : Italy and germany where primarily defeated by the Russians, the author forgets that therest of the allies took north africa, Italy , and western europe.

North Africa was in significant. The Italians never stood a chance against the Allies and German troops were not that plentiful. When the Americans landed in France they faced 5% of the German forces, then another 5% within Germany itself. 90% of their resources were focused against the Russians and they still won. However, they won mostly because they gained air supiority with Lend-Lease supplies from the US.

[timbaly]

Many of you here who think it was ok to execute these polish war prisoners are the same people who would be outraged if the United States executed Iraqi war prisoners. Another problem i have here is that you all want to pardon Stalins behaivor because you deem the United States to be worse. The United States definetely did a terrible thing by nuking Japan, but that does not excuse Stalin for ordering the deaths of POWs. Many of you seem to fail to realize that just because something is better than another doesn't mean that it's a good thing, or an justified thing in this case.

As for the North African Axis forces I belive there were 350,000 total, 180,000 Italians and 130,000 Germans. If my figures are correct, which I'm farily certain are, than the Americans and other allies did face a substantial portion of German soliders in North Africa. (I just realized my inability to add proves these numbers to be wrong, disregard them :D )

I already asked this but nobody replied. Does anyone recall if this incident was the one in which Cassius Clay said he believed was possibly Stalins fault? I believe he once said Stalin deserved criticism for the incident, something he would rarely ever say.

[redstar2000]

Why then [did] Hitler attack Poland if he could DEAL with them and make them to be his ally in war against USSR!?

He tried to "deal" with them, but the Polish fascist regime refused to give up Danzig (now Gdansk) to the Germans. You must understand that Hitler approved of fascism in other countries...as long as they clearly understood and accepted that Germany was master.


4,500 [Polish military] officers were all fascists!?

Are you suggesting that Stalin should have given them a multiple-choice "political correctness" test? "Ok, you're not really a fascist, but that guy over there is, so we'll shoot him."


Ha! If you were a private member, you would be restricted or banned for such an idiotic and bloody message!

Why? What is the social role of the officer corps in every country? Is their track-record of supporting the most reactionary ruling class elements not almost perfect?

I'd go so far as to say that military officers are almost knee-jerk fascists--it's "built-in" to their whole way of looking at the world.

What is an army, anyway, besides a small version of a fascist state?


el_profe...We are tottally agree with you!

No surprise there; you both seem to be reactionaries yourselves.

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[Pete]

at the end they say, ITaly and Germany primarily defeated by the Russinas. JAJAJA. Yes I forgot the allies took italy and france and then let the russians take berlin. Talk about a biased source

What do geographical realities have to do with this?

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 02:08 AM
Many of you here who think it was ok to execute these polish war prisoners are the same people who would be outraged if the United States executed Iraqi war prisoners. Another problem i have here is that you all want to pardon Stalins behaivor because you deem the United States to be worse. The United States definetely did a terrible thing by nuking Japan, but that does not excuse Stalin for ordering the deaths of POWs. Many of you seem to fail to realize that just because something is better than another doesn't mean that it's a good thing, or an justified thing in this case.


Yes. Alot of people here (the stalin lovers) justify his actions and/or just tell me "the usa murdered 100,000 in iraq" which is totally irrelevent to what we are discussing.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 02:15 AM

Why then [did] Hitler attack Poland if he could DEAL with them and make them to be his ally in war against USSR!?

He tried to "deal" with them, but the Polish fascist regime refused to give up Danzig (now Gdansk) to the Germans. You must understand that Hitler approved of fascism in other countries...as long as they clearly understood and accepted that Germany was master.


4,500 [Polish military] officers were all fascists!?

Are you suggesting that Stalin should have given them a multiple-choice "political correctness" test? "Ok, you're not really a fascist, but that guy over there is, so we'll shoot him."



Hmm. I Found no info on Pland having a fascist goverment before WWII. Who do you define as fascist anyone who is not a communist? I think you need to get your facts right about "fascist" poland.
since Poland was not fascist, now what is your justification for stalin killing thos soldiers. Also what do you say to Stalin sending polish citizens to siberia??

Its so stupid that you justify these murders,its just stupid and shows your idiotic way of ideolizing somoene(stalin). Its just pathetic to see you try to defend stalin.

[synthesis]

Even if you volunteer to defend your country????

Let me put it this way.

If you are an officer helping to further the military interests of anti-Semitism and fascism, I do not think it that great a crime for you to be executed. Is that clear enough?


That has nothing to do with what I said, The USA did not justify the bombings by sying japan would attack them, JAPAN DID ATTACK FIRST, Just like germany bombed Germany first, and england had to fight back the same way.

It has everything to do with what you said. You are saying that since Japan originally killed American civilians (about 100 at Pearl Harbor, if I'm not mistaken) that gives America the moral justification to kill Japanese civilians. (By a factor of at least 2300:1, if my calculations prove trustworthy.)

The reason that the mass-murder of civilians is wrong is because the political affiliation of those civilians is completely invisible to the bombers. Someone who does not agree with the actions of their government does not deserve to pay for the crimes that government has committed.


The USA did not drop the bombs because they didnt want the Russians in the war. It might of influenced in the desicion, but the desicion was made because they wanted to end the war, It had gone on long enough. More civilians would of died in an invasion, and more soldiers on both sides.

Professional military analysts, the United States Strategic Bombing Survey, and the Japanese Foreign Minister would all disagree with you.


At the end of the first article it said : Italy and germany where primarily defeated by the Russians, the author forgets that therest of the allies took north africa, Italy , and western europe.

Um, he says:


True, the war ended quickly. Italy had been defeated a year earlier. Germany had recently surrendered, crushed primarily by the armies of the Soviet Union on the Eastern Front, aided by the Allied armies on the West. Now Japan surrendered.

I see no bias there.

[redstar2000]

Hmm. I found no info on Poland having a fascist government before WWII.

Go look harder.


Many of you here who think it was ok to execute these polish war prisoners are the same people who would be outraged if the United States executed Iraqi war prisoners.

The murders of today tend to weigh somewhat heavier than the murders of more than 60 years ago.

Perhaps that is a human failing.


Another problem I have here is that you all want to pardon Stalin's behavior because you deem the United States to be worse.

Well, yes. The people who are pissing and moaning about what Stalin did 60 years ago are the same people who are defending U.S. imperialism NOW.


Many of you seem to fail to realize that just because something is better than another doesn't mean that it's a good thing, or an justified thing in this case.

Perhaps not...but you are forgetting why it is brought up in the first place and who is bringing it up in the second place. El_profe does not start a thread about Pinochet's massacres in Chile...he thinks it's "ok" to murder a large number of civilians because they have the "wrong" politics.

Instead, he goes deeper into the past to question the murder of Polish officers...because he thinks Stalin had "the wrong politics" and wants to "prove" that.

Earlier in this thread, I agreed that Stalin violated the Geneva conventions...and stated that he was "not a nice man".

But given that the people that he shot were either fascists or supporters of fascism...I just can't find it within myself to mount any kind of "outraged moral feelings" about his victims on this occasion.

My outrage is class based...in terms of sheer massive blood-letting, the deeds of the international capitalist class over the past several centuries so far exceed those of "self-designated leftists" (yes, even including Pol Pot), that the latter are essentially trivial compared to the former.

The capitalists started two major world wars which directly or indirectly killed many tens of millions of people.

The victims of Afghanistan and Iraq in the last couple of years already outnumber those of Poles killed by Stalin...and those occupations by U.S. imperialism and its lackeys are just beginning.

That doesn't mean Stalin was "good", it means that compared to U.S. imperialism, Stalin was trivial.

And I find it difficult to get "worked up" over trivia.

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[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 04:20 AM

Even if you volunteer to defend your country????

Let me put it this way.

If you are an officer helping to further the military interests of anti-Semitism and fascism, I do not think it that great a crime for you to be executed. Is that clear enough?


That has nothing to do with what I said, The USA did not justify the bombings by sying japan would attack them, JAPAN DID ATTACK FIRST, Just like germany bombed Germany first, and england had to fight back the same way.

It has everything to do with what you said. You are saying that since Japan originally killed American civilians (about 100 at Pearl Harbor, if I'm not mistaken) that gives America the moral justification to kill Japanese civilians. (By a factor of at least 2300:1, if my calculations prove trustworthy.)

The reason that the mass-murder of civilians is wrong is because the political affiliation of those civilians is completely invisible to the bombers. Someone who does not agree with the actions of their government does not deserve to pay for the crimes that government has committed.


When the help did the polish persecute jews?? but stalin did. Stalin also sent many polish civilians to work camps in siberia? how do you defend that???
The polish gov. was not fascist, give me proof??
You trying to justify the USSR invading poland is idiotic, you must also support the USa going into Iraq and getting rid of saddam right?

killing civilians is wrong, of course. But the fucking germans where bombing london, the japs bombed pearl harbor. The USA was bombing Japan and Geramny(so was the UK, bombing germany), it was how war was fought, fucking deal with it.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 04:51 AM

Hmm. I found no info on Poland having a fascist government before WWII.

Go look harder.

No, Poland was not fascist.
Then again, what do you define as fascist, cause anyone who is not communist is a fascist for you.



Many of you here who think it was ok to execute these polish war prisoners are the same people who would be outraged if the United States executed Iraqi war prisoners.

The murders of today tend to weigh somewhat heavier than the murders of more than 60 years ago.

Perhaps that is a human failing.
No, you just deny the facts. people are still(or at least like 2 years ago) being paid reparations for the holocaust.



Another problem I have here is that you all want to pardon Stalin's behavior because you deem the United States to be worse.

Well, yes. The people who are pissing and moaning about what Stalin did 60 years ago are the same people who are defending U.S. imperialism NOW.
Well then your a moron. The people who are pissing and moaning about stalin are also human rights organizations that are *****ing about Iraq. HAHAH, now you try to say the past is not important, but you where *****ing about the USA exploitation 60 years ago in latin america, jaja, ridicolous.



Many of you seem to fail to realize that just because something is better than another doesn't mean that it's a good thing, or an justified thing in this case.

Perhaps not...but you are forgetting why it is brought up in the first place and who is bringing it up in the second place. El_profe does not start a thread about Pinochet's massacres in Chile...he thinks it's "ok" to murder a large number of civilians because they have the "wrong" politics.
Instead, he goes deeper into the past to question the murder of Polish officers...because he thinks Stalin had "the wrong politics" and wants to "prove" that.

Earlier in this thread, I agreed that Stalin violated the Geneva conventions...and stated that he was "not a nice man".

But given that the people that he shot were either fascists or supporters of fascism...I just can't find it within myself to mount any kind of "outraged moral feelings" about his victims on this occasion.
I have said that pinochet was a dictator and killed innocent people. But you fail to admit(I think you do it cause your hero cant do anything bad) that stalin was a mass murderer. YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN SOMEONE WHO DENIES THE HOLCAUST, actually I think you probably think the holocaust is wester propaganda.
They where not fascist, where all german soldiers nazis, in your mind did they all deserve to die? your fucking sick if you think that a soldier or liutenant (officer) deserves to be executed. The same can be said about USSR soldiers that where working for the murderer and dictator stalin.


The capitalists started two major world wars which directly or indirectly killed many tens of millions of people.

The victims of Afghanistan and Iraq in the last couple of years already outnumber those of Poles killed by Stalin...and those occupations by U.S. imperialism and its lackeys are just beginning.


What wars where that???? certainly WWI was not started by capitalist and of course WWII was not started by capitalist, unless of course your an idiot and consider anyone who is not a communist to be a capitalist(hitler).
And about the victims in Afghanistan, you must mean the victims in the Afghanistan-Ussr war right?



That doesn't mean Stalin was "good", it means that compared to U.S. imperialism, Stalin was trivial.

And I find it difficult to get "worked up" over trivia.
you think hitler was good compare to the USA. Stalin and mao both killed more peole than hitler.

you must be bolshevikas brother. how old are you?

[synthesis]

When the help did the polish persecute jews?? but stalin did.

"Anti-Semitism is dangerous for the toilers, for it is a false track which diverts them from the proper road and leads them into the jungle. Hence, Communists, as consistent internationalists, cannot but be irreconcilable and bitter enemies of anti-Semitism. In the U.S.S.R., anti-Semitism is strictly prosecuted as a phenomenon hostile to the Soviet system. According to the laws of the U.S.S.R. active anti-Semites are punished with death."

Yeah, sounds like a real persecutor to me.


Stalin also sent many polish civilians to work camps in siberia? how do you defend that???

Who says I want to justify everything Stalin did? I simply agree with the dispatch of military officers.


You trying to justify the USSR invading poland is idiotic, you must also support the USa going into Iraq and getting rid of saddam right?

Straw man.


But the fucking germans where bombing london, the japs bombed pearl harbor.

Yeah, the "Japs" bombed Pearl Harbor, killing about two or three thousand military personnel and a couple hundred civilians. (If my numbers are wrong here, feel free to correct me.)

The Americans bombed Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Tokyo. This killed at least 230,000 civilians. It is still killing people to this day because of the radiation from the bombs. Even more reprehensible was the fact that it was completely unnecessary.


it was how war was fought, fucking deal with it.

Sorry, but that's not the way things work. You can't just tell me the murders of hundreds of thousands of innocent people are just "the way things are." You can tell me to "fucking deal with it" all you want, but the fact of the matter is that I do not condone the sadistic and brutal murder of innocent people. Anywhere.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 06:00 AM



But the fucking germans where bombing london, the japs bombed pearl harbor.

Yeah, the "Japs" bombed Pearl Harbor, killing about two or three thousand military personnel and a couple hundred civilians. (If my numbers are wrong here, feel free to correct me.)

The Americans bombed Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Tokyo. This killed at least 230,000 civilians. It is still killing people to this day because of the radiation from the bombs. Even more reprehensible was the fact that it was completely unnecessary.


it was how war was fought, fucking deal with it.

Sorry, but that's not the way things work. You can't just tell me the murders of hundreds of thousands of innocent people are just "the way things are." You can tell me to "fucking deal with it" all you want, but the fact of the matter is that I do not condone the sadistic and brutal murder of innocent people. Anywhere.
Why arent you *****ing about the civilians killed by the Germans in air raids over many allied citires and why arent you *****ing about the civilians killed by the british when they bombed the germans???

If the bombs where unnecessary why didnt the japs surrender sooner?? if they really where so eager to surrender why did they have kamikazes.

[synthesis]

Why arent you *****ing about the civilians killed by the Germans in air raids over many allied citires and why arent you *****ing about the civilians killed by the british when they bombed the germans???

Because neither one is an issue at the moment. You are defending the actions of America, and I am attacking them.

I did not think it was necessary to argue here about the actions of Nazi Germany, regardless, as anyone who defends that government violates board policy simply by being here.


If the bombs where unnecessary why didnt the japs surrender sooner??

Because unconditional surrender was undesirable to the Japanese. Their Emperor was essentially their God, and this only serves to show the harmful effects of religious rule.

[Loknar]

To you guys who think the a-bomb droppings were unnecessary: Do you know anything of Japanese culture?


ant btw, if you guys want to get on America then why don’t we get on the soviets. Lets talk about the 12,000 artillery guns that were pounding Berlin relentlessly.

[redstar2000]

When the hell did the Polish persecute Jews??...The Polish gov. was not fascist, give me proof??

Here you are...

On March 23rd 1933, the [Polish parliament] Sejm passed an ACT OF ENABLING, which gave the government dictatorial powers. In 1934, CONCENTRATION CAMPS were established to "treat" radical political opposition. In September 1934, Poland annulled the constitutional statute guaranteeing protection of the minorities' rights...

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/eceurope/pol1939.html

However, his (Pilsudski) sucessors, the 'Colonels', could no longer afford politically to maintain his policy. They lacked his prestige and knew that they had to adopt a policy with popular appeal or they would be overthrown. Anti-Semitism was an obvious choice as it pandered to the traditional prejudices of much of the Polish middle class. However, they still tried to maintain order; restrictions on the Jews would have to proceed strictly according to law. The hard-core anti-Semites of the Endeks and their offshoot, the pro-Nazi National Radicals or Naras, understood that the Colonels' capitulation to the anti-Semitic mood stemmed from their weakness, and they frequently defied the police. The country soon was swept by a wave of pogroms. The outrages frequently started in the universities, where the Endeks and Naras tried to establish 'ghetto benches' and a numerus clausus for the Jews. Soon a boycott of Jewish stores was set into effect and roving bands of Jew-haters began terrorising Poles who patronised Jewish shops. Street assaults on Jews became an everyday occurrence.

http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zizad/zizad20.html

Pilsudski's authoritarian regime was a military dictatorship with slight fascistic overtones, although it never was formalized as in fascist countries. His succession was assumed by a group of military men, among them Rydz-Smigly.

http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia...P/Pilsudsk.html (http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/P/Pilsudsk.html)

Do you know how to use the Google© search tools? If not, I think it's time you learned. I don't have unlimited time to do your research for you.

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[Loknar]

I think Stalin didn’t like Poland because Poland kicked Russia’s ass in the 20's.



And this just goes to show you, nobody likes Jews.

[Urban Rubble]

To you guys who think the a-bomb droppings were unnecessary: Do you know anything of Japanese culture?

If you are speaking of the Japanese tradition that surrender is not an option then yes. But that is not a reason to nuke them. Various brigades had already given up, when the Japanese saw their beloved god-like Emporer giving up, they would have as well. Either way, it wasn't an O.K decision. Yes, fighting them to the death would have been costly, but it would have cost soldiers, not innocent people who had nothing to do with the war.


ant btw, if you guys want to get on America then why don’t we get on the soviets. Lets talk about the 12,000 artillery guns that were pounding Berlin relentlessly.

Oh yes, artilery guns pounding the Nazi capital is equal to nuking to cities, I agree.

[Soviet power supreme]

YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN SOMEONE WHO DENIES THE HOLCAUST, actually I think you probably think the holocaust is wester propaganda.

Say man who gives these kind of links
http://www.corax.org/revisionism/documents...katynorder.html (http://www.corax.org/revisionism/documents/19400305katynorder.html)

Did u even bother to check the site?

http://www.katyn.org.au/beria.html

How did this link even related to Katynin?It tells that POWs were taken to BelaRussia and Ukraine to POW camps.In those camps were the death penalties given to some people.And yes it has the same text like in the first link.

[redstar2000]

What wars were that???? Certainly WWI was not started by capitalists and of course WWII was not started by capitalists, unless of course you're an idiot and consider anyone who is not a communist to be a capitalist (Hitler).

Your "foaming at the mouth" responses have become tedious.

If I thought you were sufficiently sophisticated to grasp the nuances, I might partially concede your point on World War I...technically speaking, the ruling classes in Russia, Germany and Austro-Hungary were not capitalists but rather the old nobility. France, England, and the United States were certainly capitalist countries...and the role of France in influencing Russia to prepare for war against Germany was crucial.

But there is no question that the rising capitalist classes in all of those countries enthusiastically supported "the great war"...nor is there any question but that any and all of them could have effectively stopped their particular country's participation had they wished to do so.

What "should" have been a "small war" between Serbia and Austro-Hungary became World War I primarily due to the efforts of the French capitalist class.

As to World War II, Germany, Japan, and Italy were capitalist countries...though in the case of Japan, the capitalists shared power with the Japanese military.

In Germany and Italy, the capitalists ruled through the mechanism of "populist despotism"...and one can make arguments over how much "autonomy" Hitler and Mussolini really had.

But it's known that all of the major German corporations more or less openly defied German currency regulations throughout the war--trading their Reichmarks for Swedish and Swiss currency and stashing their loot in the banks of neutral countries.

Japanese corporations, operating under slightly different conditions, simply stole all the gold they could find in the occupied Asian countries and literally buried it in the ground. When the war was over and the U.S. occupation authority dissolved, the Japanese corporations dug it up, sold it on the world market, and used the receipts to fund "the Japanese (economic) miracle" of the 1960s.

I think I know what you're getting at--your frequent statements that Latin America has "never had capitalism" is the key.

You have a Platonic vision of capitalism that has no particular bearing on the real world at all. If a capitalist country does something "bad", then you reply "it's not really capitalist". If a capitalist country does something "good", then you respond "see how good capitalism is".

Of course, we face a similar difficulty on the left. The parties that called themselves "communist" and the countries that called themselves "socialist" have a very mixed record as well.

We are both partisans and will, whenever we can, grab hold of any suitable argument to discredit the opposition.

You will insist that the Nazis were "not capitalist"...although Hermann Goering owned one of the largest industrial complexes in the Reich.

And I will insist that Stalinist Russia was really a "state-monopoly capitalist despotism"...even though the formal institution of private property did not exist, thus--in your eyes--it could not be "capitalist" in any form.

And so it goes.

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[Loknar]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 13 2004, 04:30 PM

To you guys who think the a-bomb droppings were unnecessary: Do you know anything of Japanese culture?

If you are speaking of the Japanese tradition that surrender is not an option then yes. But that is not a reason to nuke them. Various brigades had already given up, when the Japanese saw their beloved god-like Emporer giving up, they would have as well. Either way, it wasn't an O.K decision. Yes, fighting them to the death would have been costly, but it would have cost soldiers, not innocent people who had nothing to do with the war.


ant btw, if you guys want to get on America then why don’t we get on the soviets. Lets talk about the 12,000 artillery guns that were pounding Berlin relentlessly.

Oh yes, artilery guns pounding the Nazi capital is equal to nuking to cities, I agree.
Actually the Japanese people were in the middle of it all. The imperial army was conscripting everyone they could find, some people were armed with spears. Do you know what the NKVD did to the Russian solider who ran? Imagine a whole population of people under the same boot.

[Bolshevika]

Why does El Profe use the "idiot" in a debate where someone presents plausible facts? It seems to be a common tactic for the right to use insults when they are losing horribly at the debate.

And RS is right in regards to partisanship, especially on this board, the talk of "WELL REEL COMMUNIZM (Socialism) HAS NEVER WORKED BUT IT COULD ONE DAY" is simply unMarxist in the sense of ignoring experiences in the glorious USSR, China, Cuba, etc. .

[El Brujo]

Funny how you pro-American cretines brag about how you "won" the war by dropping the atom bomb and killing thousands of civillians but then scream bloody murder about successful Soviet operations against Nazi Germany.

[Germanator]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 09:20 PM
Why does El Profe use the "idiot" in a debate where someone presents plausible facts? It seems to be a common tactic for the right to use insults when they are losing horribly at the debate.

And RS is right in regards to partisanship, especially on this board, the talk of "WELL REEL COMMUNIZM (Socialism) HAS NEVER WORKED BUT IT COULD ONE DAY" is simply unMarxist in the sense of ignoring experiences in the glorious USSR, China, Cuba, etc. .
The USSR was never glorious. China is not Communist, but totalitarian capitalist.

Using the most oppressive regimes in the 20th century to prove that Marxism is the best form of government is, how to put it, fruitless.

[Vinny Rafarino]

That's exactly what Mcarthy said too. Excuse me if I ignore "facts" that are presented by fascists, capitalists and modern day defenders of "The Free and Democratic American way of life"

[Bolshevika]

Using the most oppressive regimes in the 20th century to prove that Marxism is the best form of government is, how to put it, fruitless.

If these regimes were so 'oppressive' how is it millions have recognized countries like the USSR, Cuba, and China as models for a life superior to capitalism?

True repressive governments that have been experimented with: Fascism, feudalism, unregulated capitalism, etc no one is fighting for, not many people are fighting for these ideals in comparison to the communist ideal.

There are armed Communist guerillas all over Asia and Latin America, fighting against their oppressive capitalist and feudalist regimes. Why isn't anyone starting a revolution for capitalism?

The belief that the USSR and China were oppressive to the toiling masses is something invented in the USA and UK.

[timbaly]

Many of you here who think it was ok to execute these polish war prisoners are the same people who would be outraged if the United States executed Iraqi war prisoners.

The murders of today tend to weigh somewhat heavier than the murders of more than 60 years ago.

Perhaps that is a human failing.



Perhaps it is, but my main point was that it doesn't excuse the murders of the past.



Another problem I have here is that you all want to pardon Stalin's behavior because you deem the United States to be worse.

Well, yes. The people who are pissing and moaning about what Stalin did 60 years ago are the same people who are defending U.S. imperialism NOW.


This is one of the first itmes I can actually say I 100% disagree with your statement. As el profe stated human rights organizations world wide condemn both actions. Although many pro-westerners do indeed try to justify american actions and blast Stalin for his it isn't an excuse for leftists to to justify Stalins behavior while blasting the US actions.



Many of you seem to fail to realize that just because something is better than another doesn't mean that it's a good thing, or an justified thing in this case.

Perhaps not...but you are forgetting why it is brought up in the first place and who is bringing it up in the second place. El_profe does not start a thread about Pinochet's massacres in Chile...he thinks it's "ok" to murder a large number of civilians because they have the "wrong" politics.

Instead, he goes deeper into the past to question the murder of Polish officers...because he thinks Stalin had "the wrong politics" and wants to "prove" that.

Earlier in this thread, I agreed that Stalin violated the Geneva conventions...and stated that he was "not a nice man".

But given that the people that he shot were either fascists or supporters of fascism...I just can't find it within myself to mount any kind of "outraged moral feelings" about his victims on this occasion.

The victims of Afghanistan and Iraq in the last couple of years already outnumber those of Poles killed by Stalin...and those occupations by U.S. imperialism and its lackeys are just beginning.

That doesn't mean Stalin was "good", it means that compared to U.S. imperialism, Stalin was trivial.



My statement : "Many of you seem to fail to realize that just because something is better than another doesn't mean that it's a good thing, or an justified thing in this case." does not exclude el profe or anyone else at all. What happened in Chile was definetely worse than Stalins execution of Polish army officials but Stalins executions were still violations of international law. If I'm going to hold the US to the standards of international law, I'm going to hold the Soviets to it as well. If I didn't I would prove myself of being a hypocrite.

The Polish officials who were shot and were indeed fascists, i shed no tears for them. However those who weren't and were killed I do feel sorry for. Regardless of my feelings towards them it was still a violation of international law and deserves to be criticized. As i've said before I think Cassisu Clay, a amn who believes stalin was a 'democratic socialist" actually once said Stalin deserves criticism for this incident.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Soviet power [email protected] 13 2004, 07:38 PM

YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN SOMEONE WHO DENIES THE HOLCAUST, actually I think you probably think the holocaust is wester propaganda.

Say man who gives these kind of links
http://www.corax.org/revisionism/documents...katynorder.html (http://www.corax.org/revisionism/documents/19400305katynorder.html)

Did u even bother to check the site?

http://www.katyn.org.au/beria.html

How did this link even related to Katynin?It tells that POWs were taken to BelaRussia and Ukraine to POW camps.In those camps were the death penalties given to some people.And yes it has the same text like in the first link.
Cuase it those "enemies of the state" where the ones that where executed, You can go look for the order on the internet, there is a ton of links with this info.

[General A.A.Vlasov]

KA:" Well, redstar2000! Now I see, who you really are! YOU ARE A BLOODLUSTY-FANATICAL-BLIND-ANARCHIST!!! " :angry:


Evereone! Don'tchange the topic! We are ALL against yankee, yes! We hate them for killing iraqis, BUT we are talking about sTalin and his crimes!!! :angry:

[Enver Hoxha]

[/QUOTE]As i've said before I think Cassisu Clay, a amn who believes stalin was a 'democratic socialist" actually once said Stalin deserves criticism for this incident.[QUOTE]

Ah yes Cassius Clay. They used to call me that once but now I've been sent back by Comrade Stalin himself to defend his honour. :D And I'm stronger and more good looking than ever.


Anyway as it turns out the believe that Stalin was responsible for Katryn has very little basis. The so called document from the archives was a shoddy forgery which even Lech Walsea refused to take seriesly. There is a article which provides numerous eye-witness tesitomy aswell as details of the weapons used and such by the German authorities. I'll try to find it if I have the time.